Ep 126: Bartram’s Bass and the Black Bass Slam, with Will Mundhenke
Will Mundhenke is a State Naturalist with the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources, Chair with the South Carolina Native Fish Coalition, and leads multiple programs through the state to get new anglers introduced to their plentiful fisheries. In this episode, Will fills me in on the Bartram’s bass, a beautiful bass native to South Carolina. We also talk about the Black Bass Slam, a challenge to catch all four species of bass in the state, which is a great opportunity to see the diverse habitats that support fishing around South Carolina.
A note from Will regarding his use of the terms “spotted bass” and “Alabama bass” in the episode:
"According to the South Carolina Hunting and Fishing Laws and Regulations Guide, the four black bass species in the state officially include the Spotted Bass. However, the agency is conducting genetic research to determine whether or not this is in fact an Alabama Bass instead of the previously named Spotted Bass."
Instagram: @rangerwillgarrett
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 126 with Will Mundhenke on Bartram's Bass and the Black Bass Slam. Just a quick note before we start. Will wanted to clarify his use of the terms spotted bass and Alabama bass in this episode. There's ongoing genetic work to determine which species actually exists in the state. Please check the show notes for a statement from Will regarding the terminology he uses during our conversation. And now, on to the show. Well I start every episode by getting a background, like I said we were going to do. So I'd love to hear how you got your start in the outdoors, hunting, fishing, all these things and we'll kind of progress into where you have ended up career-wise as well. So just just give me the rundown on how you got started in the outdoors.
Will
Yeah, absolutely. First off, thanks for having me on. Great podcast. Happy to be here. So I really got started in the outdoors at a very young age. I was probably about three the first time I went fishing and caught a big old largemouth bass with my dad using a little Heaton torpedo and a frog pattern in middle Georgia at our hunting club and immediately reeled it in and had to tell my mom about it and was all really excited and I started turkey hunting not far after that so my dad used to take me when I was five or six out into the turkey woods with him he's a big-time call maker and so he's been really passionate about the wild turkey for a long time so he helped instill the outdoors into my interests taking me squirrel hunting and turkey hunting and bass fishing and just about everything in between camping, fire building. And so I really credit a lot of my interest in the outdoors to him. You know, he got me outside. He was able to expose me to the world outside instead of just screens and video games, which I did my fair share of when I was young, but I was able to enjoy it all, thankfully. And I continued doing that all throughout grade school and college, and I'd always spend spring break in the turkey woods. All my friends in college would go down to the beaches and I would go straight to the turkey woods and spend time there in the spring mornings up against a hardwood tree. I really loved that. And I really didn't do much fly fishing until really about five or six years ago.
Katie
Oh wow. Okay.
Will
Maybe six or seven years ago now. It was 2018 is when I first really started fly fishing. I had always fished before that spinning reels, bait casters, everything in between, primarily going out on lakes, chasing largemouth bass, Alabama bass, spotted bass in North Georgia, where I'm originally from up in the mountains. And I first picked up a fly rod as a gift and started chasing smallmouth bass here in Columbia. And that was just head over heels after that. As other people have said, it's like once you get into it and you catch that first fish and you experience what it's like to fly fish, it's really hard to go back to doing anything else. And so it really took over as a passion and I had fished for trout before but I was never really enamored with them like a lot of fly anglers because I grew up chasing bass and because of the availability of bass in the southeast. The fact that I could fly fish for bass and you were throwing bigger flies and you were throwing topwater popping bugs that really allowed me to have that ability and that interest in that hobby flourish and really propelled it into what I do now for work.
Katie
Well so what are you doing now? You're with the South Carolina DNR?
Will
Yeah so I'm with South Carolina Department of Natural Resources. So for the last four years I've been working with aquatic education within SCDNR which is a mandated program through the Sport Fish Restoration Grant and aquatic the entire purpose of our program is to be the bridge, to be the medium that gets people who did not necessarily have the influence to get into the outdoors. We get to be that first introduction into the outdoors, first introduction into the woods and the waters of South Carolina. And every state has an aquatic education program. Some are small, some are one staff or two staff like South Carolina, or you have Texas, which has 10 to 20 aquatic education staff. And it's really robust. But our entire mission is just to foster an appreciation of our wildlife, of our fisheries, in our respective states. And we do that in a myriad of ways, like fishing clinics, fishing rodeos, trout in the classroom, fishing tackle loaner programs, and a program we recently developed called the Black Bass Slam.
Katie
So are most of these programs things that you, like events that you put on that people can come to, or like say somebody just decides one day I would like to pick up hunting or fishing, would they look for one of these existing events or can they come to you and kind of request some sort of like mentorship?
Will
Yeah, so they can do it either way. So we do host public events, like we'll host pre-planned fishing clinics that anyone with zero experience ability can come and participate in. We also have hunting clinics. We have women's specific hunting clinics, first time hunting clinics, and we have our take one, make one program in our hunter education department, which obviously take a hunter, make a hunter, which is really great where you get to go out with a mentor and hunt wild turkeys, white tail deer, ducks, just about anything you can imagine. So that's kind of the hunting component on the other flip side of our aquatic education component. And we provide all the gear that's necessary. All you have to do is have a fishing license or hunting license if you're old enough, and it's completely free to everyone involved. So it's a really great program that helps reach people that are overwhelmed by the outdoors or don't necessarily see the outdoors as a welcoming space. If you did not have a parental influence or a guardian influence or somebody in your family or a close friend or neighbor take you into the outdoors for the first time, if you just walked in off the street into a Bass Pro Shops or a Cabela's, it's the most overwhelming thing in the world. I mean, what I've really found, like even in beginners, hook sizes are confusing. You know, it's completely backwards. The larger the number hook, the smaller the hook it is. Just something that simple can really throw off a beginner. And there's 5,000 options and six different fly rod weights and a hundred different reels you can choose from and different lines and tapers. I mean, it really is overwhelming. And so this basically tries to eliminate as many obstacles as possible and to try to simplify it for the first timer. And I'll say the smile on the face of an eight year old and an 84 year old is the same when they catch their first fish.
Katie
Oh, I'm sure. That's gonna be a really rewarding position to be in, just like seeing people experience that for the first time over and over and over again. It's like you get to have that experience over and over and over again too.
Will
Yeah, yeah, I mean it really is and fortunately we have a lot of volunteers to help out too. So we have a large volunteer corps called our Certified Fishing Instructors and they lead these fishing clinics throughout the year. They help with our fishing rodeos and they're really the boots on the ground that allow us to accomplish this mission statewide. Because right now our aquatic education program is just me. Right now we only have one staff and and we're statewide position so it is certainly a large one but one that we're passionate about and passionate about getting people outdoors and we're we're happy to be able to do it for free I think that's that's pretty spectacular and just encouraging people to get out and pitch.
Katie
So are you both designing the programs and then implementing them as well like would you come up with something and then you are also the boots on the ground that is you know interfacing with with people or do you get volunteers who can come help with the actual you know mentoring of the the students?
Will
So we do both. The actual program design comes from me so like the Black Bass Slam, the fly-fishing clinic, and the handbook that we designed all of those came from from the aquatic education office. And then I'll go out and actually leave clinics and teach folks as well but we do have volunteers that'll put forth those programs too after being trained. So it's a little bit of both but the The actual program design does come from our office and we do implement it as well. We do a lot of specialty programs like macroinvertebrates and fish prints, gyutaku. It's fun.
Katie
Now, how do people find out about this? I'm picturing somebody who's maybe never set foot in the outdoors before, but they decide they want to pick this up. How do they find out that these exist if they don't happen to Google? Does the South Carolina DNR offer some sort of program. It seems to me that people who are already in the outdoors would be aware that these exist, but someone who needs the program might not have that same channel to come across it. I know there's things like Trot in the Classroom, which kind of, I don't want to say forces it upon students as though it's a bad thing, but they are participating in it, whether they want to or not. But for adults and things like that, how do they come across these programs?
Will
Primarily through podcasts. [laughing] No, podcasts really are a good way to get our word out about our programs. We do a lot of social media advertising, but you have to follow our account. So it does get difficult. It is a challenge to get out in front of folks that may be non-consumptive users, people that don't necessarily hunt or fish, but they hike, they camp, they may be birders, amateur professional, we try to get out in front of the non-consumptive user to try to show that our land management ethic and our wildlife management ethic benefits everyone. Hunters and anglers are the motor behind the conservation wheel nationwide. And so we try to get out in front of them to show that we're not against each other, but rather we are allies in our attempt to conserve our wild lands and waters. But as far as getting out in front of folks that may not be looking for it, that's hard. It is a constant challenge that we face. We do as many outreach events as we can, like at the Southeastern Wildlife Exposition, ICAST, every year we go and talk to industry partners, but it is a consistent challenge and it's something that we talk about quite a bit. Trial in the classroom is a really good benefit because when we teach about what the Department of Natural Resources does along with our cold water habitats and ecosystems which are out in the classroom, you're reaching a larger population through the school system. And a lot of our certified fishing instructors teach outdoor and wildlife courses in their actual schools. Like the teachers themselves have outdoor education programs in their actual program. So that helps, but it's just a constant struggle. Word of mouth. It's another really, really big one. We have about 150 volunteers and they all live in neighborhoods and go to churches and hang out in their community groups and go to book clubs and we try to get out and do like neighborhood fishing clinics and post it out and get as many people in as we can.
Katie
Gotcha. Can, can you give just an overview of what Trout in the Classroom is? Just because I don't think we've ever actually talked about it on this podcast. So for anyone who's not familiar with Trout in the Classroom, if you could just give like that 30,000 foot view of how it works and and the benefits of it?
Will
Yeah, absolutely. Trout in the Classroom is a national program statewide and it is fostered by Trout Unlimited. They usually partner with state agencies. So in our case, South Carolina Department of Natural Resources manages and administers the program itself in assistance with our three Trout Unlimited chapters. But essentially what it does is we in South Carolina, we a 55 gallon tank. It goes in up to 30 schools here in South Carolina. Your school has to be in a county that has trout water in it, which is not everywhere in South Carolina. And we actually deliver rainbow trout eggs to these schools and students raise them and feed them from trout eggs to sac fry to fry to fingerlings throughout the year, usually from October to April. And throughout, the students are taking water chemistry measurements. They're looking pH, they're looking at ammonia, they're looking at nitrates and nitrites, and they're looking at fish quality health and learning about cold water habitats. You know, what in a cold water stream mimics a filter? What in a cold water stream mimics a chiller? How do fish get oxygen in the wild versus in a tank? So it's a really a holistic program to see the life cycle of a trout. And then in April we go on a stocking field trip, and we have all 30 schools come and The kids come and they put their trout in little paper cups and then they go give them a name and words of good luck and wisdom and then they put them in the water. And it's really great. And we get to talk about stocking and why we stock, what are some of the benefits versus what are some of the disadvantages of stocking. We're very apparent about that. In our state, we are pro native fish. Where would we stock a fish? Where would we not stock a fish? And I always give a program on native versus invasive versus non-native three are different and how we talk about them is important and how we use those terms in fisheries management is very important. But that's that's the 30,000 foot view. There's also salmon in the classroom. There have been, it's unrelated to Trout Unlimited, but there are bass in the class in certain states.
Katie
Bass in the class sounds like it gets rowdier.
Will
Yeah it does get rowdier. They're a little bit tougher. But it's a pretty great program. The kids always really love it. And it doesn't always work out. Sometimes all their fish die. And it can be really a challenge. I always encourage the kids, I was like, "Do not name your fish." I was like, "'Cause Andy might eat Larry, "and that's gonna upset you." (laughing) And so you get to talk about all that. You get to talk about how death is a part of life. I mean, it's a really great program to have kids of all ages understand different facets of wildlife. And what's spectacular about it is we have elementary schools and we have high schools. We have arts and crafts teachers take the program. We have math teachers, environmental sciences. My favorite program, individual lesson plan that I've had so far is every Valentine's Day, they do love letters to trout. And they write Valentine's Day cards to their trout and they do poems and sketches and they post it all over the tank. some of them get mailed to me and it's rewarding.
Katie
Okay, well the trout have to have a name if you're writing a love letter to them I think. I think that's a mandatory.
Will
Yeah, exactly.
Katie
Well, speaking of native species, I also saw that you're part of the Native Fish Coalition in South Carolina. Tell me a little bit more about that and maybe any of the work that you're doing there.
Will
Yeah, so I am the inaugural chair of the South Carolina Native Fish Coalition. It was really brought to the South by Dr. Red Eye himself, Matt Lewis on an earlier podcast. He really brought it to Alabama first and from there it spread to Georgia and to South Carolina. We really rallied behind the red-eyed bass species in our specific states and so I'm a really big native fish advocate. I love the fact that fish belong in their ecosystem in the same way that a native tree or a of that river. It is a part of its environment. It was shaped and crafted over thousands and thousands of years to belong in that habitat. I mean, if you look at an Appalachian brook trout, it looks exactly like an Appalachian fall evening. You know, the colors just pop and it's vibrant and it belongs in that ecosystem. And the Bartram's bass and the red-eyed bass that we have in Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina fit that bill in the exact same way. belong there, and I think that's really important. And so we started that in South Carolina because the Bartram's bass really does not have an advocate for it. Native Fish Coalition was really the first national nonprofit conservation organization that looked at the red-eyed bass and said this fish has value. This fish needs a champion. It needs somebody to actually speak for it and get boots on the ground. And there were a lot of local individuals like Matt Lewis, like myself, like Roel, like all these others that you might see on Instagram if you follow the red-eye bass fly-fishing community. A lot of us are out there. That's really where this movement started. But this really gave it some backing. Native Fish Coalition really gave it, I don't want to say legitimacy, but it gave it an icon. It gave it a group to rally behind. And it's been it's been really helpful in spreading the word and the mission of our native conservation and it's not just for red-eyed bass and it's not just a game fish organization you know this is not a fly fishing group this is not a fishing club this is a conservation organization for fishes native fishes of all shapes and sizes they don't have to be game fish and they don't just have to be non game fish so we care about the Bartram's bass as much as the brook trout as much as the darter and the dace and the bluehead chub and they're all of value and one thing that is unfortunate that I've found is typically you have to be an angler to care about fish whereas you do not have to be a hunter to care about wildlife. So wildlife has all these champions behind it, consumptive and non-consumptive, but generally if you're an advocate for fish you're an angler and that's unfortunate. We lose a lot of support because of that, just simply because they're out of sight, out of mind.
Katie
Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like hunters do contribute a lot to conservation, but there are also conservation organizations that just like bears and deer, et cetera. I can't think of any organization that really champions a brook trout that isn't full of anglers. No one's just like, "I just love brook trout."
Will
Right. No, you're absolutely right.
Katie
I know you mentioned the Bartram’s bass and brook trout as two game fish. Are there any other native game fish in your state or are those kind of the two main native game fish? Well so
Will
we have a lot. So you have the Bartram's bass which is part of the red-eyed bass complex. You have the southern strain of the Appalachian brook trout. This is one of the southern most fisheries for the brook trout. So and we're doing a lot SCDNR and Native Fish Coalition and Trout Unlimited is doing a lot of restoration work for the southern Appalachian brook trout which is great. We striped bass which is our state game fish and they run up the rivers and through the lakes mostly a freshwater game fish here but and they have a complicated history themselves but they are a native game fish and then we have all our saltwater species so think about red drum, sea trout, flounder you know if you go on the coastline there's tons of technically native game fish but and you know and we have all our wonderful bluegill, red breast sunfish, you know red ear sunfish, black crappie, just about all of them.
Katie
Those are all native too?
Will
Yeah, yeah. We don't have every panfish that's native here but we do have a great host of them that are native and you just, for a long time I had a phrase in aquatic education, "never be too good for a panfish, never be too good for a bluegill."
Katie
I agree.
Will
I feel like,
Katie
oh go ahead.
Will
I was gonna say it's the minute you get tired of catching bluegill you need to check yourself and go back to appreciate it.
Katie
I feel like they're great for starting out and then they're still fun I mean you can still catch you know a dozen of them and they still put up a good fight and everything after the fact but it's like it's great for all skill levels whereas some fish you know you kind of have to get to a certain skill level before you can really start consistently catching them and I feel like panfish span all the skill levels and and can stay fun throughout.
Will
Yeah no absolutely and I mean they play the game you know they're always there they're always willing to bite and I have had many a terrible day saved by a bluegill or red breast sunfish so I'm always happy to see them I'll always love them they're most people's first fish they call it the silver bullet of fly fishing in particular but it's just it's awesome and especially when when you work in a Department of Natural Resource and you do any type of fisheries ecology or fishing program, you see the genuine joy that a bluegill or a red breast sunfish can bring or a white perch for that matter. I mean, any of these plentiful species and it really just makes you appreciate them. They play the game, they're there, they're on the other end of the line and it's never be too good for a panfish.
Katie
I agree.
Will
Yeah.
Katie
Tell me about the black bass slam because I know I talked to Matt about the red-eye bass slam. I don't know if this is a spin-off of that, but just fill me in on the details on that.
Will
Yeah, so the black bass slam, which is not necessarily a spin-off of the red-eye slam, but it's similar to Georgia's black bass slam and these other state slams. When you think about native cutthroat slams, Virginia has a trout slam. The SCDNR black bass slam is a free program that was created during the pandemic, during COVID. So we worked from home for a year and I taught virtual fishing clinics, which was just wild and a challenge in and of itself. So we really wanted to find a safe way to get people outdoors that they could get out and necessarily leave their comfort zone. And so if you've always caught our native largemouth bass in these big lakes throughout the state, well now you have to go into our river systems and find our smallmouth bass. Or you have to go from the southeastern part of the state all the way into the northwest part of the state into the mountains and try and catch our Bartram's bass. And so the goal of it was to challenge anglers to get out and experience the diversity of natural resources that we have here in South Carolina, to experience different styles of fishing, and to gain an appreciation for all four of our black bass and in the four are the Bartram's red-eyed bass, the largemouth bass, the smallmouth bass, and the spotted bass, which is the Alabama bass here. And they're two different fish but our rules and regs say spotted bass but we're pretty sure they're Alabama bass. We're doing genetic work. So yeah, it's a little confusing. So if you catch all four species of the black bass slam you can submit them to me to scbasslam@dnr.sc.gov and you'll get a certificate, a unique patch that changes every year, as well as four unique stickers that change every year to recognize your accomplishment. And really the mission was to enlighten people that the Bartram's bass exists, that it is an important game fish. That was kind of the underlying motivation for me. is to get people out and experiencing their habitat, to get knee deep in a cold mountain stream, to get out of your 80 mile per hour boat flying down a lake and realize that this is really similar to a largemouth bass. You know, the fishing style is really similar and that this fish is worth protecting, its habitat is worth protecting, its watershed is worth protecting, And, you know, as others have said, to experience something, to enjoy something, is to become a stakeholder. It's to grow a passion and really start caring about the welfare of a fish that maybe you didn't know existed before this program. But this program was enough motivation to get you out fishing in areas that you don't normally fish.
Katie
I know most people are probably going to be at least somewhat familiar with what it's like to fish for a largemouth bass or smallmouth bass in terms of techniques and habitats, but I would love for you to go through all four and kind of just compare them. Like if you were to go out and do this slam today, what would you experience going from catching a largemouth there to a smallmouth there to a Bartram's to a spotted or Alabama bass, but in particular for your area? Because maybe smallmouth and largemouth are a bit unique in your area, how you'd fish for them. walk me through what your different experience would be for each of these four basses you went through the slam and how you kind of experienced the state and the fisheries resources in each one of these species.
Will
Right, okay, so that's a good question. That's a big question, but it's a good one. So we've only ever had one person complete the Black Bass Slam in one day.
Katie
Okay.
Will
It was our aquatic education intern last year.
Katie
Oh, I thought you were gonna say, it was you.
Will
No, it wasn't me. It wasn't, I'm not that crazy. He woke up at 4 a.m., drove all over the state, but it was quite the accomplishment. And so, if you're going to try and catch all four species of the black bass slam in South Carolina, you would start with the largemouth bass. It's the most plentiful throughout the state. You really can find them in every corner of the state. You can find them in ponds, creeks, rivers, just about everywhere. So take your choosing with the largemouth bass. You don't have to complete the slam on a fly rod. I always like to do it. I think it's the most exciting and challenging way. And so I definitely recommend chasing them with a fly rod. For that, I would throw a big number two popper. Early morning, I would go for a pond or try and find a creek that doesn't get fished very often, find a big deep pool and throw it in there and have a good time. You're almost certain to catch a large mouth bass. It's definitely a plentiful fish in our state. So after the largemouth bass, I would try and knock out the smallmouth bass. The smallmouth bass is a little bit more challenging. The only real river systems that you can find them in large catchable numbers are the Broad River system in South Carolina. You can find them in some areas like the Catawba and Lake Monticello, but the Broad River is where they were introduced in our state. So they are a non-native black bass to our state. You can find them pretty much down to the fault line in Columbia. My favorite thing to throw for them is just a clouser. A chartreuse and white clouser, size number four, or an olive and white clouser. And I just jig it with a floating line along a shoal complex. And I love catching them in Columbia. I think it's the most fun. You can catch it with the sunrise over the state capital, and you can have a lot of fun while you're here. Columbia, South Carolina, as far as I'm aware, is the only state capital where you can catch five major game fish within two minutes of each other.
Katie
That's a good selling point.
Will
Yeah, so you can catch a smallmouth bass, a largemouth bass, a striped bass, a rainbow trout, and a brown trout, all within five minutes of each other. So it's pretty spectacular. But so, you can knock out the largemouth and the smallmouth in the same river if you really wanted to in the broad river system. so once you've caught the smallmouth bass I would probably try and go get the spotted bass. These are a little bit harder to find so spotted bass were illegally introduced into South Carolina. They were never stocked here. They were illegally transported over state lines. We don't know who, obviously, but they were illegally introduced here, never stocked by the state, and they have caused a host of issues with hybridization with our native Bartram's bass just like with all most red-eyed bass where the spotted bass or Alabama bass is non-native and so Lake Kiyowee is really your best bet for the spotted bass or Lake Hartwell it's a big lake system that's really where you need to go and fish wood structure that's my favorite way to do it deceivers clousers any big streamer pattern will do it and I try to chase wood debris fallen branches, fallen logs. They love to get up in wolf packs and bust up on the surface early mornings and late evenings. And it can be a lot of fun. Even though they're invasive and introduced, they're my least favorite black bass for obvious reasons. But yeah, so if you can knock the spotted bass out, then you've saved the best for last, which is the Bartram's bass. And if you're up in that area of Lake Kiwi, Lake Hartwell, you're already in the northwestern part of the state. So you're up in the Blue Ridge, you're up in Appalachian brook trout country, but you're not gonna fish for brook trout, you're gonna fish for Bartram's bass. And some of our biggest rivers, so like the Chattooga River is a National Wild and Scenic River, it's iconic, and there are some huge Bartram's bass in there. What's huge? And if that's where you get to finish your black bass slam. So what's huge? That is a relative term. Yeah, exactly. So a native red-eyed bass grows very slowly. So you're talking native and wild, completely natural in its habitat, only eating organic food sources. A huge is 12 to 13 inches. Yeah, so it sounds small, but for a slow-growing red-eyed bass, that is a trophy fish. It's, it's, they grow about an inch to an inch and a half a year, roughly, we think. Not a lot of research has been done on that quite yet, but that's what we estimate. And so you're talking about a fish that could be anywhere from seven to ten years old, you know, eight, nine, ten, eleven years old, that has survived in a stream despite all of our land changes, all of our attempts to ruin their habitat, you know, malicious or not, we just seem to always stumble into messing up our native habitats unless we're intentional about it. And that's just a spectacular creature. They're all special regardless of their size and I'm always excited to catch one that might be six inches as well as I am to catch a 12 or 13 inch Bartram's bass but fishing for them in these little tributary streams as well as the bigger rivers is just a really rewarding experience so that's how I like to end my black bass slam and it's usually the most challenging one to catch. There's just not a lot of red-eyed bass anglers here in South Carolina yet and that's a goal that the black bass slam is really attempting to change and and to promote angling for them, but to promote ethical angling for them. Making sure that people understand that this is a native and wild fish that should be treated with care and to protect them for future anglers.
Katie
Are they fairly easy to access? Just in terms of, I picture the mountain brook trout of the Southeast often live kind of in these remote, choked out, kind of hard to get to streams. Are the Bartram's bass something that you can fish for pretty easily, like drive up and fish for them? Or does it require a little bit more trekking into the woods and getting away from roads and people to find them?
Will
So you can kind of have both experiences. I'll say for the most part it does require some trekking. There are a few locations that are more accessible than others, but it still requires some hiking. It requires the ability to wet wade on slippery rocks that'll bust your shins faster than you could believe. And it's not embarrassing. get back up and keep fishing. But yeah, so it does require some trekking. It is very much a definition of a backcountry fishing. Most of their habitat lies in national forest lands and big river systems, small tributaries, a lot of streams that you might think you'll find brook trout. You can find Bartram's Bass in, so you can definitely get some rhododendron and Mount Laurel choke streams that you got to watch your back cast, but you can also find Bartram's bass in your bigger rivers. So the Savannah River, the Chattooga River all have native and while there is some hybridization issues in the Savannah River and the Chattooga River for the most part they are still genetically pure and so you can rest assured that the chances are you're catching a pure Bartram's bass. But hybridization does become an issue when you start looking at the mouths of these streams that that feed into these bigger lakes, like Lake Kiwi and Lake Hartwell obviously have headwater streams that feed into them, and a lot of those are native Bartram's bass habitat, but because of the introduced Alabama bass, we found that they've worked their way up into these streams and started hybridizing with our Bartram's bass. You get back-cross hybridization, and so it is an issue in South Carolina just like it is in Georgia with the Chattahoochee bass. So fun to catch, so don't stress out about it, but it is worthwhile putting in the effort to find a pure Bartram's bass. And you catch one, it's really something special. It feels very pure South Carolina, as much as the palm tree might be.
Katie
You mentioned that sometimes you would find a stream that you think you might find a brook trout in, and then you find Bartram’s bass. I assume they don't really live in the same streams because I would picture the bass just destroying the brook trout population, but Correct me if I'm wrong there. Do you ever find them together?
Will
The native brook trout habitat in South Carolina is so restricted now that you don't necessarily find them overlapping. If you went downstream enough ways, then you'll start finding Bartram's bass.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Will
Whereas if you go upstreams, you'll start finding brook trout. I will say they do overlap in our stocked streams. in the Chattooga River, it's one of the most heavily stocked streams in the southeast. And you know, massive stocking of brown trout and rainbow trout. And you will often hear of anglers, and I get bass land submissions of people that were, you know, nymphing or throwing a dry fly trying to catch trout, and they catch a Bartram's bass. And they think it's a baby smallmouth or something like that. And that provides a really valuable opportunity to educate somebody and and teach them about the jewel that they've actually caught and how fortunate they should be. And it's almost always received well. It's like, oh wow, how incredible, I had no idea. So that's awesome. But they do overlap there, but that's primarily because we're putting trout on top of the Bartram's bass head over and over and over again. Which there's a lot of reasons for that.
Katie
But in the smaller tributary streams, they could be in the same stream, it would be more likely that they're kind of just spatially separated. You're not going to find a bunch of brook trout and a bunch of Bartram's bass just in the same hole or anything like that.
Will
Not really with our native brook trout, no. We do have stocked brook trout that you'll find them intermingling with our Bartram's bass as well as rainbow and brown trout. So that does happen quite a bit. But with our native southern strain Appalachian trout? Not really. It's just so restricted and the creeks are usually so small that I mean it's possible I'll say that it's possible but not typical.
Katie
Now for the black bass slam you mentioned that you know every year you get updated stickers and patches and things like that. Are there a good number of people who just do this every year as kind of a you know every summer I come out and do the slam?
Will
Yeah we do we have a lot of repeat contenders I'll say that submit every year and they really get into it and some of them try to see how early they can do it each year. Our intern last year, Jonathan, he was able to do it in a one-day slam which was just phenomenal. But what's interesting is we get a shocking amount of Georgia residents that come and complete the South Carolina Bass Slam and that's primarily because the Savannah River, which is a border water between South Carolina and Georgia, holds three of the four Bass Slams. So you can catch a smallmouth, a largemouth bass, and a largemouth bass all in that one river.
Katie
Do you have to be standing on the South Carolina side for it to count?
Will
I'm not asking for your GPS location. Okay. It's preferred. But no, it all counts. Yeah, and so we have a lake in South Carolina too called Lake Jocassee, and it's the deepest lake in the state. It's absolutely stunning, covered, surrounded by the Blue Ridge Mountains. And it's the only lake in our state that you can catch all four species of black bass in one place. We call it our super slam lake. So you can catch the Bartram's bass, the spotted bass, the largemouth bass, and the smallmouth all in one lake.
Katie
That just sounds like a big hybrid soup waiting to happen.
Will
Yeah. Hybridization is rampant. Absolutely. You're not wrong there. Um, so yeah, if you pull a red-eyed bass out of Lake Tocasi, there's a very high chance that it is a hybrid and it'll have different type of features that'll tell you that it is for sure. Usually if you catch a red-eyed bass and it's 13-14 inches chances are it's a hybrid.
Katie
Okay and I think we've talked on the show with both Rowell and Matt about you know what distinguishes a red-eyed bass but I know red-eyed bass is also kind of an umbrella term for multiple species. Is there anything that differentiates the Bartram's bass from either these other black bass or other red-eyed bass specifically that you're like you see that feature and you're like that is a Bartram's bass?
Will
Yeah it can. The Bartram's bass usually grows a little bit larger than the other species of red-eyed bass from what we think. Like I'm not it's completely uncommon to catch you know an 11, 12, 13 inch Bartram's bass but they tend to be a little bit larger. A lot of times they will have an orange to white marking on their fin as well as the stereotypical white margins on their tail fin. That's pretty iconic. They'll have the teal to silver crescent behind their eye. That is typical, but they'll have a leopard pattern up and down their back near their dorsal fin. And a lot of times they'll have these elongated stripes that run up and down their flanks.
Katie
Interesting. They sound really pretty.
Will
Oh, it's a stunning fish. Absolutely. They're somewhat nicknamed in South Carolina as the leopard bass.
Katie
Okay. I don't think I have heard that from anybody else, although we were talking specifically about Bartram's bass, but that one sounds just a little bit more striking maybe than the other red-eyed bass I've been hearing about, but maybe they just didn't do as good a job of describing them.
Will
I was going to say, they're all striking. All seven in the red-eyed bass complex are just stunningly beautiful, and once you fish for them enough, you know, I almost exclusively fish for red-eyed bass now when I'm fly fishing, you can distinguish between the seven in a heartbeat. like anything else. If you spend enough time looking at them and studying them, it becomes a no-brainer what you're looking at. Identifying them becomes very noticeable, and all seven really have their unique physical markers that differentiate them from the others. It can definitely be confusing if you're just seeing a red -eyed mass for the first time.
Katie
I know what you're talking about, and it's not that he's seeing it for the first time, but I've been looking at fish for so long that when I see a brook trout or a rainbow trout. I don't think, "Oh, there's these markings and that means it's a..." Whatever. I just see it and that's just what it is. I just see that thing and I know what it is. But my husband, I noticed the other day we were looking at fish pictures or a video and I asked him if he knew what it was and he kind of looked at it and then made his decision. And I realized that there comes a point where you just use those features for a while and have to kind of go through the motion in your head to figure out what you're looking at. But at some point, it just becomes automatic. the same way you'd look at a dog and know it's a dog. You don't think about what makes this a dog. I'm sure it's the same thing with these where if I were to come out there and look at the Bartram's bass I'd have to go through a list of features and check how many make the list. I'm sure you look at it and it's like you can't not see a Bartram's bass because you've seen them so many times.
Will
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right. I mean it does become automatic and another easy way to identify them is by their watershed. You know each of these seven red-eyed bass are home to their own unique watershed. So if you're in the Savannah River drainage and you catch what you think might be a red -eyed bass, it has the teal crescent, it has the white margins on its tail fin, it has the orange to white feature on its anal fin, it's a Bartram's bass. As far as we know these red-eyed bass have not been transported on top of each other in their own drainages. So that, you know, if you know your geography and you know what watershed you're in, you can make a pretty educated guess.
Katie
This is kind of off topic, but do you happen to know who Bartram was or is?
Will
Yeah, he was a person absolutely It's the namesake is from William Bartram who was a naturalist that went through the Carolinas Virginia Georgia Describing different features and reporting back during the heyday when the naturalists were about and that was 1700s 1800s and that was kind of citizen scientists The early forms of that and they would just you know, you have Mark Catesby That was a really James John Audubon Was a major naturalist and they were just describing and depicting a lot of what they saw in the quote-unquote New world over here on the coast. We don't really know how the Bartram's Bass was named after William Bartram There is a lot of other namesake features like the Bartram's Trail in North Georgia that hold his namesake But it's interesting because if you ever read his travels He talks about fly-fishing and he talks about how he first witnessed an early form of fly-fishing From the indigenous folks that he would encounter so the indigenous peoples that he would observe There was this one mentioned that he saw a long cane it called it a cane pole. It wasn't a cane pole in the way that we're thinking, but essentially a long cane that had some type of horsehair or string attached to it and had a hook covered in feathers. And they were dancing it up and off in the water and catching fish. And a lot of times our early bass were just called trout by these naturalists because they were using their Eurocentric ideas and transplanting them on to the quote-unquote new world. So a that they were catching trout, but they're talking about someone who's fishing in Charleston, they're obviously not catching trout.
Katie
I see, okay.
Will
And so you can infer that it could potentially be a black bass, it could potentially be a panfish or another fish species, but a lot of times trout was used as a general term for fish.
Katie
Okay, and I assume that's just because they had trout in Europe and they didn't have bass in Europe. Right,
Will
exactly. And to the European explorers, like these naturalists, the fish species here had not been formally described. They were language barriers, of course. It's a really interesting history and concept, but we really don't know why the Bartram's Bass was named after William Bartram, but we do like him here. You'll see a lot of namesakes, street names, trails named after him. He's an interesting character, for sure.
Katie
That was way more fascinating than I thought I was going to get asking about where this fish was named.
Will
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wish I knew. I really do. That would be interesting.
Katie
I will let you decide whether it's worth diving into the fishing for them, just because I have talked with both Matt and Rowell about fishing for their respective red-eye species. They both said very similar things about fishing for them, like similar gear, similar techniques. If the Bartram's is notably different from those. I'd love to hear about the fishing techniques. If it's not, maybe you can talk just a little bit about fishing in South Carolina generally, because I know you mentioned it's kind of an overlooked destination. I'll let you steer that and take it where you want based on whether you think the Bartram's Bass stands out enough.
Will
Well, the Bartram's Bass definitely stands out. It's the prettiest of all seven red eyes. There's no doubt about that. But, you know, the gear is really similar as what you would need for fishing for the other seven red-eyed bass. I generally sum it up as if you're a serious Bartram's bass angler in South Carolina you need two rods, a four-weight and a five-weight. A four-weight will cover all the tributary streams and when you get into the big rivers like the Savannah and the Chattooga bring out the five-weight. The flies are the same as far as topwater popping flies, the fishing techniques are the same, so it really does fall into the same idea of fishing for that red-eyed bass complex. But definitely worthwhile, this is the easternmost range of the red-eyed bass, so we're kind of the bookend over here, and I definitely encourage people who want to complete the red-eyed slam to start in South Carolina and go east to west. That is, that's, it's pretty great. But fishing for them is the same, a lot of the gear and techniques you use are the same. The river systems tend to be a little bit bigger so that can be its own challenge. You do have some small streams that you can fish but a lot of times they're just generally a little wider. It requires a little bit more casting ability but if you can catch the other six you can catch the barter's bass. As far as fishing in South Carolina I mean it is an overlooked destination for fly fishing. I think like most places across the country and luckily the native fish movement is growing but generally people for stock trout. A lot of the fly anglers that you'll talk to here go to North Carolina to go fish for stock trout, but we have a lot of native species here that offer a plethora of opportunity and endless hours of enjoyment for anyone that has a fly rod that wants to fish in-state. I always encourage exploring urban streams and creeks. A lot of our creeks that run through Columbia and Greenville and Charleston and in our cities here, they don't get fished. They bigger lakes. South Carolina, like a lot of these states, especially with bass fishing, do tend to trend more towards, you know, the $50,000 boat and the baitcasters and spinning rods. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's very gear heavy and it's very obstacle intense. You have to reach a certain criteria to be good at that, whereas the creek that might be running behind the grocery store downtown might never get fished, and it is slapped full of bluegill and red breast sunfish and largemouth bass and black crappie and it can just be an insane amount of fun with a two three four weight fiberglass rod and just go creaking. We have the phrase blue lining in fly fishing right I'm sure everybody knows what that is if you do it in a city we call it brown lining.
Katie
That sounds dirty. I don't know about that.
Will
It might be good to wear waders but there's a lot of fish in there and it's a lot of fun. But it's really an untapped resource and this is not just South Carolina. This is true countrywide. We have a lot of unfished creeks that we forego because it might be urban. You know we want to go out into the picturesque mountains and travel two hours minimum to go fishing but you don't have to. And so I like to always promote urban fisheries as much as you can. But South Carolina is overlooked for its bigger game fish too. You know the only place I'll put a caveat there is our coastal fly fishing culture is very strong. It's very robust. We have a lot of people that fly fish for redfish, flounders, sea trout, and you know just about every saltwater species you can imagine. We have a really healthy fishery here out of Charleston, a really good culture. So saltwater fly fishing is healthy but our freshwater fly fishing does get overlooked. These urban creeks are popular. Bartram's bass, I think, is one of the best fly rod targets you can have, and they cover a large portion of the state. Smallmouth bass, one of the best game fish, probably second only to the trout as far as fly fishing cultural following. It runs from Columbia all the way to the upstate, and a lot of folks don't even know that we have it here in South Carolina. And they grow big. We're talking about four, five, six pound smallmouth bass swimming in these rivers that don't get a lot of pressure comparatively to our big lakes. And then we have one of the southernmost fisheries for the brook trout. And so when you get to catch an Appalachian brook trout and you're looking at just absolute stunning colors of this fish and you realize that this is one of the southernmost parts of its range, it's truly spectacular. And to know that you're standing where some of it could have started. It's a rewarding feeling, similar to the Bartram's bass. It's a fish that belongs in its place, and there's a real intrinsic value to that. And then, like I mentioned earlier, Columbia itself is completely underrated. We have 30 to 45 inch striped bass that take a fly in a heartbeat and feels like you have a tarpon on the line. And you're catching this fish, and you look down and you can see the state capital, and you're right in the middle of the capital city of South Carolina fighting this 40-inch striped bass on a fly rod and it's it's remarkable and you know you have tubers going by you and kayakers and white heavens. It's truly special and then the next fish you catch might be a five pound smallmouth bass and then as you get ten minutes down the river you could catch a largemouth bass and then you could catch a 20-inch brown trout 22-inch rainbow trout that reproduce all in the capital city, a truly underrated fly fishing destination.
Katie
Yeah, you're selling it. You're selling Columbia specifically.
Will
Yeah, well, I do live here. I work in Columbia. But I mean, all of our cities have something to offer for sure, but it's just South Carolina gets overlooked and it's not exclusive to South Carolina. It's the same reasons Georgia gets overlooked and Alabama gets overlooked and North Carolina doesn't 'cause they've done a good job selling their trout culture the Blue Ridge Mountains. But you know South Carolina has mountains too and our mountains are just as pretty and our streams the Chattooga National Lawton Scenic River it's it's second to none in terms of aesthetic beauty.
Katie
Well I gotta say I fully support all the people from Colorado migrating east and setting up shop in South Carolina and giving your fish a little bit of love.
Will
There you go I love it. A lot of the people in Colorado came from here so.
Katie
Yep I can confirm that most of us from here are not from here.
Will
One more note on the Bartram's Bass, just as a public service announcement, this is something I always like to mention when I can. As most of your listeners probably already know, never move fish, don't ever transport fish for any reason whatsoever. If you catch a fish, put it back in the water body if you're not gonna harvest it. Moving fish just causes a myriad of problems that you can't even imagine and it's something that we really need to get a handle on. So if you catch a fish and you've enjoyed it, put it back in the water it belongs. It doesn't need to go in the creek behind your house, and it doesn't need to go in an aquarium, and you don't need to go put it in your neighborhood pond. So just please don't transport fish.
Katie
Great message. Well where can people find the DNR or any of your programs if they want to come? I would assume that most people listening to this don't need to be introduced to the outdoors, but just in general people want to maybe check out the website or anything like that if they're coming to South Carolina and would like to take up some of these opportunities.
Will
Yeah absolutely. My personal Instagram if you want to reach out to me about any of these opportunities is Ranger Will Garrett on Instagram. South Carolina Department of Natural Resources has its own host of social media handles just look for SCDNR on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all of it. We're on there and and you're always welcome to reach out to me and I'll tell you everything you need to know about finishing the Black Bass Slam or fishing for trout or anywhere.
Katie
Perfect. Well, Will, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you've got a little one, a new addition in the house, so I know this is probably a big chunk of your time taken out and I just really appreciate you doing this.
Will
Absolutely. Thank you, Katie, it was a pleasure.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you wanna find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you wanna reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you wanna support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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