Ep 125: Fish-Slapping the Hardrock 100 and DIY Packrafting in Alaska, with Bryon Powell
Bryon Powell is an ultra-runner, Vice President of Running Rivers, founder and former editor-in-chief of iRunFar.com, and the most decorated Flyathlete out there. In this episode, Bryon shares how we went from strictly a runner to a runner and angler, and how he fish-slapped one of the hardest trail races in the country: the Hardrock 100. We also talk about his trip to Alaska, during which he did a DIY packrafting trip down the Togiak River.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 125 with Bryon Powell on fish slapping the Hard Rock 100 and DIY pack rafting in Alaska. Just to start, I love to get a background on how my guests got into the outdoors. And usually we really focus on the fishing, but I'm not sure what came first for you, the running or the fishing. So I'll let you take it away and give me your intro and your spiel on how you got into the outdoors.
Bryon
Yeah, I mean, I guess the long story into outdoors growing up in central New Jersey because my my pop pop my my grandfather lived nearby and would take me and my sister out for hikes in the woods. We lucked out to have a nice like 1,400 acre forested park behind my house and started off doing that and as I grew up a little bit that became a place where we couldn't go past the second Creek but we could wander around before that and build forts and little dams and catch crayfish and when it was time for dinner dad would whistle real loud and we'd come home and eventually that turned into running cross-country for high school and I loved every weekend I would just run in the park behind my house and on the single track there and same with all most of the summer I'd most of my runs would be in the park there and just fell in love with moving in the outdoors and as a child we did a bit of fishing with my father, like around Stockton Canal with some rainbow trout or a little pond with some bluegills, or we'd go to upstate New York for a vacation every summer and go out in a little dinky aluminum rowboat and catch some perch or walleye or whatever. But it was like a fun occasional activity. I wouldn't say I grew up fishing often, didn't do any fly fishing or anything like that. But I ran all through high school and college, and very soon after college got into ultra running and continued to love trails throughout that time. So after a decade in the DC area working, I moved out to the West, originally the Yosemite area, then Park City, then Moab and Utah, and now in Silverton, Colorado. And in all those places, just spending what time I could outside. Never enough, never as much as I'd hope or wanted, but predominantly through running. I've done a very limited amount of just true backpacking in my life, like basically none. But I have done a lot of adventuring, whether it's very long single days that I really would consider backcountry trips. You can be in the backcountry if you're running in an hour. You might not see another person the rest of the day. And then more sporadically getting out for two or three night what we would call fast packing trips again with a either 20 or maybe a 30 liter pack with a, you know, an ultra light tent, like a big Agnes or, and a light sleeping bag and not carrying a lot of extra stuff. And being able to hike up mountains run down the other sides. And it wasn't until I want to say 2015 that I got reintroduced to fishing in any real way I was, I work and I have and do continue to work in the running industry in the outdoor world. And for decades, there's been a twice a year outdoor retailer show. And at 2015, I'm just gonna assume it was 2015. The show was in Salt Lake City, Utah. And the day after the show, the co-founder of Ultra, the running shoe company, Bryon Beckstead, took myself and another journalist out into the Uintas for what he called ultra fishing. And we ran, I don't know if the other guy made it out to the fishing part, but we ran 10 miles in to a set of lakes in the Uintas. Bryon gave me the five-minute lesson and a fly rod. And first cast had a brook trout and a woolly bugger, and that was it. I was into it. Took a couple years to get regularly into it, but even that summer, I tried a couple times coordinating it with some work trips, and then got to, I wanna say, it was probably 2018, And somehow I heard of the Flyathlon. I don't know if it was the famous Dirtbag Diaries episode that they had that got me into it. But I heard of it and immediately signed up. And I don't know the chicken and the egg because a big part of my fishing story, it's been predominantly a Tenkara story. And again, at that outdoor retailer show, I think at that point it might have been in Denver. I can't quite recall. but Tenkara USA was there and I just wasn't in my purview to be reporting on, but it's fun to wander a trade show floor and see what else is out there. And I'm like that, I kind of like this fly fishing thing, but setting up a five weight all the time when I'm like going into the back country and want to fish that spot or this spot and there's all the gear, just a bit much. This thing is 14 inches long and two and a half ounces and ready to go. All right, let's give this a try. And I did. And that really opened up things because I think that summer spent six months living in Silverton, Colorado, and then basically have lived there full time starting that fall, the March of 2019. So that's an area where there's no big rivers. It's a lot of, the Animas River is pretty small up there. And then a ton of high alpine backcountry streams or pretty small lakes where a tenkara was, if not a totally viable method, maybe the best method for fishing those. So I just, I fell in love with even running from home up the Animas along some of the dirt roads and just coming to a fishing spot, having my rod out ready to fish in 40 seconds, fishing and then either running it with it extended or if I was going to go a mile or two up the road, collapsing it and running up the road and, or trail and then fishing again. And it took a couple more years, but now I'm all in on fishing. I think I transitioned out of the editor-in-chief role, I run far.com, the site I founded in June, and spent August and September on a two-month Alaskan sabbatical trip that I drove up there for and fished my face off the whole time.
Katie
Is that the packraft trip?
Bryon
Yeah, the packraft trip was one of the-- was kind of going into it was the dream I had of like fitting into this two months. And then it happened. And OK, we'll get into that. That was that was a pinnacle experience. But right now, we discussed before that we get on the podcast here. I'm currently in New Zealand for three or four months. My wife's asking. And I'd been here, I think, three times for work previously and spent a week after twice to trail run exclusively. I wasn't really a fly fisherman yet, but I remember seeing the trout around here and being like, oh, that's interesting. And indeed it is. It's been a pretty good two months of fishing over here.
Katie
So I've got a bunch of unrelated questions based on the things you said. And some of them pertain to the running, since I'm much less of a runner than most people at the flyathlon, but especially less than you. And the first thing I wanted to ask, because you said you got into ultras. Are ultras mostly trail runs? Are there ultras that exist that are entirely on road? Because I just picture it. I hate running on roads. It just destroys my knees, even short distances. And every ultra I can think of is a trail run. I can't think of a ton of them, but the ones that come to mind are all trail runs. Are there 1, 200 mile races that happen primarily on pavement, or are they mostly trail runs?
Bryon
Yeah, there's definitely road-based ultras. They were a much bigger thing earlier in the US history of ultra marathons, as well as globally, whether those were on dirt roads or paved roads, but I guess the most competitive and probably the biggest, almost has to be the biggest ultra marathon in the world is Comrades Marathon, which is 50 some miles in South Africa every June. And it's got tens and tens of thousands of people and that's exclusively road. There's some longer ones in the US that are pretty small entry numbers, but they're around. And there's also a world championship and individual events of 100 kilometers that are road. And there's some on 50Ks as well that are just sort of flat and fast, whether those are loop courses or there's a couple that are point to point. But that was definitely- they've been de-emphasized. Some people kind of at the top of the sport are more on that flat and fast side are like, why are we de-prioritized? But it's just, I think, people who want to run longer distances, at least this stage of the sport are drawn to the trail slash dirt road, whatever we want to off pavement events.
Katie
I guess Yeah, so ultras are anything over a marathon, but I think all the ones you listed there were in the not over 100 miles. Can you think of any that are over 100 miles that are on pavement?
Bryon
There are some that are I don't know if it's exclusively, but there's or if it's even run right now there was a Trans Europe race that was all pavement. There's a run across Tennessee that- or some long races in the South that are pretty long and on pavement. But there's fewer.
Katie
OK, do you do any pavement running, or are you exclusively a trail runner?
Bryon
No, I do a lot of pavement running. I don't mind it so much. I mean, I live in Silverton-- well, not there for this winter, but especially all winter, basically, you can't run on the trails for six months of the year. So I do a lot of, you probably, it'd be road for a couple of miles or asphalt for one mile in one direction or two and a half and another, and then it turns into dirt, but it's all, all frozen over anyway, so I don't mind it. Uh, and I actually, I don't know. I guess I can't, even though I've always loved trail running, I've come at the sport from also running competitive cross country and that like track and field and other stuff. So I don't mind the running as much, though I could run on the roads just down the driveway from where I am here, but I tend to just pop on the cinder or the kind of double large running track or trail just down by Lake Wanaka here.
Katie
Gotcha.
Bryon
So it's my preference.
Katie
And before you got into fishing, were you, like when you would run past a lake or a stream or something, were you at all interested in like what was in there? Was there any part of you that was just, you know, curious about it Or did that not really hit you until you had a rod in your hand and suddenly it opened up?
Bryon
I'd say 98% didn't interest me at all. I kind of came from a fascination with biology or that kind of stuff, but not as a career or anything. But so maybe above a normal baseline person, a little extra curiosity, but generally not. And that's actually one of the things that I've loved. At the same time, I was very observant of curious of the terrestrial habitat. I'm always looking at the plants and the animals and the rocks and everything around me, but I wasn't connecting that way with the water. And it's been really eye-opening and fascinating to now connect with something that I've run by or through so many times and just have a new appreciation for it. And it's changed. It's given me something new to observe, but it's also been fun because I was running through the American West for the better part of a decade before finding fishing, especially ton of it. And so I was always going for the mountain passes or the summits or just the stuff up high. And that would be my destinations or the things drawing me. And now I'm like, "Oh, I want to check out that river or that lake." And sometimes you're still going over the pass or the summit to get there, but something else is drawing me. And that's kind of fun having a new, totally new map of exploration.
Katie
Do you go on many runs? I'm not talking about short training runs like you just want to get out for an hour out of the house. But if you're gonna go out in the backcountry and do a longish trail run, do you always take a rod with you just in case you come across water? Or do you always prioritize getting to a place that you can fish? Or is it something that you sometimes do but you know the primary thing you're focusing on is running and that's kind of a secondary...
Bryon
It's increasingly becoming a large... the fishing has increasingly become a large motivator. There's some... I mean during the winter often I'll just go run, that's That's fine.
Katie
Right, right. Sure.
Bryon
And there's occasionally, especially with other people, I won't necessarily bring my rod. Just to…
Katie
Not be that guy.
Bryon
We have another purpose that run. But I'd say most of the time, there's some days where I might be time crunched or whatever that I'll leave the rod at home. But whenever I can, I think I'd take out my rod. And sometimes it's just, "Oh, I might know the creek way back there and I love it." and just go fishing for half an hour and come back or even 15 minutes. And then there's other days where I, like here in New Zealand, I'd go out and cover a 15 mile or maybe it's a 10 mile stretch of trail, but cover 15 miles of just walking the riverbed all day. But it was a big motivator. I had a race soon after arriving here in New Zealand, a 50 mile race and coming off my sabbatical, which I didn't focus on running. I was fitter than the average person, but really needed to ramp up my training. and I bribed myself with a couple marathon length and then a 50-mile run fish effort. And the fishing was a big part of that to motivate me. I wasn't just going to-- it was like the late autumn in Silverton, and it's cold, the days are getting shorter. Getting up high and climbing a lot over the passes isn't always comfortable. So oh, yeah, but I can go fish that stream that I've never fished? OK, let's do it.
Katie
I can drag myself out.
Bryon
Totally.
Katie
So a couple little- I'm not going to call it housekeeping. I guess they're not really housekeeping, But I know one of the main things we're going to talk about is that packraft trip you did in Alaska. But a couple more things on the running. One is that you mentioned that you kind of have come at fishing from a different mindset than a lot of people because it was based around that kind of lightweight on the move, like you're not going to be hauling around waders on a long trail run. And you mentioned that like in the document that you've kind of taken a different approach to the gear than a lot of people who get into it. I just want to hear your thoughts on that. Like what has your experience been compared to what you've seen in other people and maybe how has that informed your thoughts on like what's required to go fishing?
Bryon
Yeah, I think it's fascinating because there's nothing wrong with it, but so many people come to backcountry fishing from fishing and that comes with waders and wading boots and a vest and maybe a certain style of clothes to go with that. And I cut, I almost all of my fishing has come from a running perspective and not wanting bulky stuff to either carry or have a pack that's like, I'm not bringing a fishing vest. I'm bringing a running vest. Like my most, basically my setup all summer when I'm home is a Solomon advanced skin, 12 liter little vest. And it has a, they sell a trail quiver, which is supposed to be meant for trekking poles, but it clips on the outside of the back of the pack. And I can just put a couple of 10 cars on there. And I actually sometimes carry three different ones. And my Hellbender will have a hopper dropper or a streamer setup. I'll have one 10 car USA Honey with a hopper dropper. And then I'll have another one with a drive fly. There's two Honeys I keep, a hopper dropper and a rod sock. And so I can literally just by feel and touch, grab a different rod and fish it. So again, sort of drive-by or run-by fishing, which is really fun. And the same with like, so here in New Zealand, I'm doing some overnight stuff. And probably most people, I mean, almost everybody I see in the trail is carrying 30 or 50 liter packs. And I've got a 20 liter forthcoming Talon pack from Osprey. And it's 20 liters and it's got a running setup. I remember it's got like a water bottle, or not holders, but pockets up front and a bunch of different pockets that are normally used for carrying gels or, I mean, like snacks or some other running accessories. And I've kind of through playing around, I do keep water in one of my phone or the other top front pockets, but then set up with some flies in different pockets and some snacks and other ones. And it works really well. Same with, it looks goofy, but I got a little two by three foam patch that I think is like the decking material for boats. It's like a little foam that has like 3M super sticky glue that must've been six years ago. I put on a running hat, just the front of the brim of my hat and I can carry my flies on it. Like I don't store all my flies that way, but I do have like an essential collection of like a couple of nymphs, a couple of hoppers, a couple of streamers, and maybe a couple of terrestrial, like beetles or whatever. But like, if I somehow like brought the wrong case or I ran out of my parachute atoms in my case, well, I've got a couple stuck on my hat But Jen is just like having that just a piece of, it's just a running hat. It's nothing, it's no fishing hat. Yeah. So I don't know. And the same, but just my default is wet waiting or if it's winter, just staying out of the water. And so it's just a pair of running shoes and Patagonia Strider Pro shorts. And like, it works totally fine. And the only, the closest thing I get to, aside from my rod and flies and that, those essential items, like in late in the shoulder seasons, I'll bring a pair of like neoprene booties and I don't generally use them. sometimes I'll throw them on to have a little less pain wet waiting.
Katie
It's kind of freeing to get to the point where you've got kind of a small kit that you can just throw in the pocket of any backpack. And apart from, like you said, your rod and reel and things that can't really get, I guess with tenkara, you've even gotten rid of the reel, but you can't really get much smaller than however small rod can get. But to have everything else just be in a little, you know, pop can sized thing. It's really freeing to realize you don't need all that stuff and you can go a lot farther than you might be able to if you're just hauling all of your stuff. If I took everything I owned, it would be all in an overnight pack.
Bryon
Oh, totally. Sometimes I have a... Even here in New Zealand, I've got a duffel of fishing stuff. In my truck in Alaska, I certainly had a duffel worth of fishing stuff, a big duffel. I'm like, "All right, we're going to keep that in the car most of the time." I don't need all that stuff to fish, two little fly boxes and a couple of little hockey puck cases. I don't know what the technical term is. It's funny. I was thinking of it this morning while running is like, "Is my fishing DIY?" No, it's kind of L-I-Y, like learn it yourself.
Katie
Just try something and see what happens.
Bryon
Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't work. I remember sitting the night before my first running fishing event, kind of carving a cork with a utility knife to try to put it on the top of my Tenkara rod so that I could wrap the line across the top and bottom of the pole. And it kind of worked. But then I went home and I experimented with paper clips and duct tape to use that in a spool lengthwise. And that worked.
Katie
That's hilarious that you've done that. Because I do the same thing for flatlands. I take crafting foam from Joann Fabrics and roll it up into a little cylinder. And then I wrap dry dropper rigs around it. So I can just pull it off and all the line is already pre-measured and tied on so I can just pull off these like pre-rigged to fly things. And it's just fun to see what people do to...
Bryon
I'll have to show you my set because I don't even, I leave it on the rod. I don't even, I keep a, just a full setup on the rod and spool it on the...
Katie
Okay. Yeah. I'm not using Tenkara. So I don't know how... Okay.
Bryon
Yeah, but totally. Okay. Yeah. It makes sense. Totally. Yep. Yeah. I think my first flyathlon I had like even just a couple of flies stuck. I didn't even bring a fly box. There was no patch or anything. It was just like, let's do this. But even like most- no one's taught me how to tenkara. Not that you need to. I've read some books. And you watch a little bit online. But I kind of was listening to Paul Vertrees podcast that you did. And I was like, I really should one of these days just go out with somebody who knows how to tenkara and show me how. I mean, I've kind of figured it out. But I've got to be doing something terribly wrong.
Katie
And the same with- Yeah. It's kind of simple. Or I guess in my uneducated opinion, you don't have to work the line as much because you don't have two hands on it. So I don't know.
Bryon
And I feel like from the tent car, I've kind of figured out the line part for Western fly fishing. But man, my casting could use some help. So I need to find a casting coach or clinic or something. The two months in Alaska and being over here in New Zealand, which I'm primarily Western fly fishing, I've gotten a lot better. But mostly, again, self-taught or just figuring it, like literally just doing it. And oh, this worked way better than that did.
Katie
Yeah. Well, one more thing before we get to Alaska is I want to hear about fish lapping the Hard Rock 100. And maybe I'll let you take this one away too. But the primary things I want to hear about are how did this idea come about? What did people think of it? What did other racers think of it? And what was the experience like?
Bryon
Yeah. So to back up, fish lapping is something that came out of, I believe the mind of Andrew Todd, founder of Running Rivers and the Flyathlons, which are running fishing races. You had Andrew on, I think, in 2019.
Katie
He actually is coming out- his next episode is coming out in a couple of weeks.
Bryon
Nice, nice. Well, anyway, so there's these actual races that are trail running or running and fly fishing combined. Fish slapping is when you enter an existing race, you just sign up as a normal entrant, and you catch a fish during the race. And it's been done by a bunch of people at different events. I think Andrew did it for the first time at the Imogene Pass run in Colorado. And people have done it in the Moab 240-mile race. So it's been done. I tried a couple times, kind of halfheartedly. I did it once at a race in Argentina. I had never scouted the water. There was a little creek that was going to be at the end of the race, and I threw a fly a couple of times. didn't see any sign of fish and moved on. And during a huge runoff this past spring in Colorado, I tried during the San Juan Solstice 50 miler. And again, it was like raging water at like peak melt and gave it a couple of shots and nothing. But so at hard rock, I wouldn't have done the fly slap or fish slap attempt if I was in my peak, if I had my peak training and peak fitness, I would have stuck to just the rutting. but a number of life circumstances meant I was gonna be fit enough to get around hard rock, but I wasn't gonna be able to compete for my best time ever or anything like that.
Katie
So that's what you meant is like, if you had been in your peak shape, you would have had to focus on trying to like win or get close to winning.
Bryon
No, no, winning, but do my, you know what your own best performance is.
Katie
Sure, sure.
Bryon
Yeah, I'm not beating the folks who win hard rock, but I could beat my best time or just have my best performance, you'd kind of know. But I was fit enough to get around and I wanted to be out there and it's a beautiful course and a lot of areas that I just that are really far back there. It led to some fun training because I wanted to scout to see if I could catch the Grand Slam of Colorado Grand Slam of trout during the race and scouting suggested it wasn't worth the attempt but I wanted to scout a backcountry portion between Silverton and in the direction of Lake City. I think it was the either the third or fifth July, whatever that we, uh, I remember just going out and scouting the hard rock course and being on the call or the CDT afterward and covering 20 some miles and seeing one person the entire time, and it was just like. Got drawn out into the back country and loved it, but fast forward to hard rock. And, um, I kind of let the race director knew, no, I was going to do it. I wasn't going to go very far off course, like nothing, like wasn't going to go further than someone might to go relieve themselves or kind of within the margin of error.
Katie
Do they not want you to – What is that margin of error? At what point would you get punished or something if you really deviated from the course?
Bryon
People have literally been 8 or 10 miles off before. In those cases, generally, the rule is return to where you left the course under your own power. But now that we have GPS trackers, We just want somebody like sending out search and rescue for you. But if you're 20 yards off course, no one is going to do that. So anyway, yeah, I let the race director know I was going to do it. He seemed supportive. Being out there doing it, I mean, people could see I had two rods in my- one or two, maybe it was just one that day- in my little quiver on the back of my pack and had my flies on my hat. And so people kind of knew what I was up to. And the cool thing about Hard Rocks, it's really a community. So I'd known a bunch of people I was running around and then just talked to others and everybody seemed pretty into it. One guy stopped, like who I know pretty well, stopped and like filmed me doing it and took pictures and video and that was kind of fun. So everybody's pretty supportive. Not everybody always is, like people, somebody after the San Juan solstice, like basically said it was like a slap in their face that I was trying to fish. And got a couple comments online around trying fish slapping races, whereas like, especially hard rock, it's hard to get into. Like, I can't believe you're doing this and like wasting the spot. I'm like, well, no, like people do all sorts of things that are meaningful to them during really long endurance races. Like all of the hard rocks I've run, I've taken like five or 600 photos. Is that like not being as competitive as I can be, or if somebody is stopping to give their kid hugs at aid stations or leaving ashes of their pet some path, I mean, whatever, like, I don't know, just like, kind of like there's hike your own hike. There's like, I always I've thought for a long time, like run your own run, like as long as I'm not like, cutting, literally cutting you off or like hurting you and or I don't know, it struck me as silly. But fortunately, the vast majority of people are really supportive and I caught a rainbow, excuse me, I caught a cutty in one spot. And after scouting, I knew this was really fun, cutthroat fishing water. So I had to stop at a second point, even though I didn't already fish slapped it successfully. I stopped at another spot and caught another nice cutthroat. And then so I could get two different species. I stopped and got a brookie, uh, not that much further. And then I didn't really have a shot for a, a good shot for a Brown or a rainbow. So I decided to, to put the poles away after that, but it was fun to, and it really gave me something to look forward to because the spots I was fishing were. I don't know, 20 plus or minus 20 miles into the race. So it was just kind of fun for those first four or five hours or whatever it was to just kind of have that percolating in the back of my head. It's like, oh, I get to go fish later. And I actually did fish one spot. I guess probably between 25 and 30 that I'd never fished before just briefly, but it was, it was, it was a really welcome addition. I don't, uh, I'm in the race this year. I think life might keep me from running it, but even if I did run it, I don't think I'd try to fish slap it again. It was one and done. I did that 50 mile race I did here in New Zealand right after showing up. I did-- maybe 10 minutes into the race, there's the Arrow River. And I definitely stopped and caught a rainbow there.
Katie
And how far out of your way-- or not out of your way, but if you had wanted to actually grand slam it, how different would your plan have had to be? How much time or distance would you have had to add on to make a meaningful effort toward catching a brown and a rainbow?
Bryon
It's hard to say because I did – the brown and rainbow would be over by Telluride. I went and scouted that in very early July before hard rock and it was a huge runoff this year in Colorado, at least in the San Juan Mountains. I tried in a little stream, Bear Creek that supposedly has browns and it was just raging and there was no catching fish. I tried the San Miguel, the very top of the San Miguel in like the city park and supposedly that is Browns, but that day I fished it all I caught was some brookies. So it's possible in that area to give myself the best chance I'd probably have to go a couple of miles downstream. I think there's more rainbows there, but it bears further investigation. If I was really, if I was a kid, I could catch a rainbow in the little town pond and tell you ride, but I'm older than 12 or 14 or whatever the age of. And I even checked out if there was a little outlet or inlet into that from the San Miguel to see if, "Oh, do we have a stock or bow that got out?" I'm like, "No, there's not really a good place for that to happen."
Katie
Well, all we need is some 12-year-old to run the Hard Rock 100 and then they can cash in on that wonderful opportunity. Totally. Well, moving on to Alaska, I don't know much about your trip beyond that you went for a long time and that you did a pack raft trip in the middle of it. So I guess just, I'll let you take it away and tell me everything. Like, you know, I wanna hear about the planning, how you pulled it off and obviously some of the highlights from it. I don't know if, you know, which parts of it are worth really diving deep into. So I'll let you lead the way.
Bryon
A couple of things, like a couple of moments on the front side and that, like I really wanted a fishing, a longer fishing trip to Alaska. I'd taken a couple of two short ones previously, and those were really fun. And I was switching out of an editor-in-chief role of my website, that I was really burnt out from. Like, it was just a long decade of hard work. So I wanted this break, and I was like, Alaska's it. I even bought a truck and a topper to facilitate it. But the drive up was fun, in that I had never caught a fish in Montana. So I stopped east of Missoula, and forget which wilderness area. There's a bunch there. One of the forks and maybe the Blackfoot River. Anyway, stopped and fish, caught my first fish in Montana ever. Caught a couple of West Slope Cutties, which I never caught. And my first bull trout, which was really fun. It was a small one, but it was just like, kind of like checking off. Oh yeah, I got one of those now. And then just even up on the drive, I stopped in Banff National Park and you can't get, have higher guides in the park, but you can privately drift boat it. So like a friend of a friend had a drift boat and used to be a guide and just took us out and like floated the Bow River, caught some nice fish there and had never caught a fish there or in Canada at all. So that was fun. Went to the Yukon, got a fishing license there and caught a couple, it didn't even like really try, but like stopped at a couple of small streams and caught a couple grayling just for giggles. And then made it to Alaska, was on my way to run a race up there, kind of just motivation to keep running, but stopped at the Delta Clearwater River outside of Delta, Alaska, and floated that, which was my first, I think my first solo pack raft ever. And I was pretty scared 'cause you go on the Tanana, or however you pronounce that, briefly, and it was raging. It's a fast glacial river, just for like a mile or two, but it was a little scary. The river I was fishing on, the Clearwater, is kind of known for trophy grayling and was catching 16, 18 inch grayling on 10 car from the pack raft. And it was like a magical way to kick off time in Alaska. Did fish slap that race I did, the Kasugi Ridge run before basically ending on the Kenai for a couple of weeks. I'd only been in a pack raft, I think four times in my life at that point, but I had this trip to a Bristol Bay River in my mind. And so I really wanted to test myself. So I ended up just finding a friend of a friend to float and fish with one day on the Kenai and successfully floated it, caught a bunch of sockeye on it, ended up getting a big sockeye hook stuck in the back of my head that day. Fortunately I was with somebody and they could pull it out, but kind of passed the litmus test of like, okay, I can handle some bumpy water. The Kenai is not a crazy river, but there's some bumpy parts. And I wanted to run that before I would give, put out into the world that I wanted to do this Bristol Bay River. And that ended up being the Togiak. I'll save the long story for why it was the Togiak. Basically a friend was gonna be working out of the town of Togiak for a couple of weeks at the end of August and September. Like my run fish buddy was gonna be working there. So it was perfect. He couldn't get away. We'd kind of dreamed for a couple of years of before or after one of his work trips to Alaska, floating at Bristol Bay River together. He couldn't, but I don't know, sometime in late August or like mid August, after floating on the Kenai, I put out into Facebook like, hey, I have this really pinnacle dream experience I wanna do on this Alaska trip. It's to float the Togiak. I'm not gonna do it alone. Anybody want to join me? And happened, I don't know, Within a day or two, this guy, Corey, who's from New York, but was spending his summer in Alaska, said, "Hell, I'll go for it," basically. And I'd never met him. I think we'd emailed once about stuff on the running side of things years ago, but I didn't even recall it. Maybe he'd written my wife for work, but he was in and we couldn't meet up until literally, we were gonna fly that Saturday to Dillingham. And we met, I wanna say Wednesday night for the first time. And we were planning to do a week long or a six day float down the Togiak. So Corey and I like planned for a couple of days. Like we each sort of planned or got geared together on our own, but then two days to compare what gear we had, fill in our holes. He literally bought a pack raft that and a dry suit that week. We fly into Dillingham and then get a bush plane the next day 'cause of bad weather out to Togiak Lake. beautiful just glacial valley, just perfect Alaskan wilderness. We probably got there mid-afternoon. Corey, who hadn't done a lot of fishing in a long time, did catch a dolly on a dolly varden on a spinning rod and we ended up having that for dinner. The key thing there is we're kind of on a little island where the sort of braided channels go from Togiak Lake into Togiak River, and maybe there's five feet of gravel bank before pretty dense willow forest. So I decide I'm going to cook with my back to the outlet, facing the tree so that I at least can see what's coming out of them. And I start cooking, clean up the dolly and start frying it up. And then a couple minutes into cooking, Cory's like, "Bryon, and like bear and sure enough, 40 or 50 meters up the beach, there's a brown bear coming toward us. And there were like, there was so much bear sign on this beach. Like that's why we're kind of being careful or that's why I was like facing the forest, I guess. And yeah, just the entire beach is brown bear prints. But yeah, I get up, we make noise and it definitely lets us know we're not alone. We'd seen some, I think I already seen a bear or two further off, but we heard him in camp that night. And it was, that first night was a little bit shaky 'cause we had just had a bear come at, not come at us while we were cooking, but like approach us. And we, Cory kind of heard some in camp that night. And I even got out of my tent at one point to look around and I didn't see anything, but we were on alert, let's say. I think we fished a little bit again the next morning before setting up the pack rafts. And this is the first, literally that Monday morning, the first day we're actually gonna float is the first time he's ever been in a pack raft. So we're at a high learn it yourself level here of just let's jump in. So there's like a little like side pool. It's not, there's no flow or anything. So he gets in there and paddles around a little bit and I guess gets a feel for it. And we send off down river and yeah, still a nice glacial valley with mountains around us. It's a pretty long day we have planned 'cause there's not a lot of camping spots. by camping spots, there's no established campsites, just like suitable spots for camping. There's all sorts of different places we can or can't camp there, but basically you have to camp on a gravel, the gravel bar, gravel at the side of the river or I think up this high up the river, we could kind of tuck into some willow patches, but camping's pretty limited, which was frustrating for me 'cause we had a lot, I think we floated maybe 18 miles that day, but the whole time we'd seen sockeye in the lake and we already caught a dolly and tons of sockeye. But the entire reason I'm there then is I really want to catch some cohos. I want some silver salmon. They're just amazing fish, amazing to fight, great eating. And I want to be fishing for them, but we need to make progress. And I'm like always looking through this crystal clear water and I'm like, where are they, where are they? Ended up seeing a couple of spots that there was no way we could like pull over and fish. I mean, I don't know if you have experience with pack rafts. Like I did fish from my pack raft in some really calm water on the Delta Clearwater River, but you really don't want to, or I am not yet comfortable trying to fish in a relatively rapidly moving water. Like this might only have been four or five miles an hour, but there's still obstructions at the sides or if it turns you around and then you're floating blind. So it's just, I'm not going to do that, especially trying to catch what could be 15 pound salmon. Like, they're in charge then, and I'm in a boat, and how am I going to land this? We'll just drag you around. Exactly. You know, like get a free tow. Maybe in the wrong direction, but a free tow. So don't end up really fishing much that day. I don't know if it was the second full day of the float. I'd kind of been teaching Cory what to look for, because I'd fished a number, not just this trip, but on the Kenai a bunch for silver. So I'm kind of like know where they hold, and it's very particular. Like if you're going to be fishing for him, like a nice sidewater, drag it across them and like, that's where you're going to be looking for them. That's when they're going to bite. You could like float over them as they're moving, but your chances of catching them are way less. So eventually he like finds a nice little like backwater and we pull over and sure enough, there's like five of them in there. And I don't know if it was the second or third cast, I had one on and like, I could not have caught another fish the entire trip. And it would have been totally worthwhile. But to save you all the fish catches, it was definitely got to some different spots with some just great silvers. Camped at the mouth of one creek with a hole kind of in front of it. And probably between one evening and the next day, I don't know, between the two of us caught 15 or 20 nice silvers, like up to 15 pounds. Like they're just, I caught a bunch of fit silvers on the Kenai as well. And these were just like, those were nice fish and these togiak fish were next level. I don't know what that variation in genetics or food availability or what it is, but they were another level up, which was pretty cool. It was fun though, 'cause like we're here, we are catching big fish. Like I remember fishing, stopping on one big gravel island and then at the tail of it, there was a little backwater on the shore side that was kind of suitable for one person fishing. I think it was like a windy day and it was kind of smaller, but bunch of fish, one person could fish it. But on the other side where there was the current the river, we could just catch these beautiful little Dolly Varden as like the other person's fishing for silvers. And it was just like this great, great balance. Didn't, apparently in the middle reaches of the river, there's some great rainbow fishing. There are a couple companies that guide on that. There are no permanent settlements on the river. There's a couple, bunch of like hunting or fishing camps for, there's a huge, the town of Togie, which is actually out in the bay in the ocean is 90 plus percent Native American and they have these subsistence camps that they come to in the summer. So there's some of those, there's a couple like fishing camps including Togiak River Lodge which actually has a couple structures. So other people are fishing and I think with their drift boats they get some really amazing rainbows but again we were not fishing while drifting so we caught a couple rainbows. I don't know if it's too graphic, but one of the things that struck me from this trip is, I'm sure you've heard of a mouse trout, like fish that rainbows or browns or whatever, that take mice. And you kind of hear of them and people talk in Alaska and other places that you kind of can catch them like early, late spring or something, like before you have the dry fly hatches. And maybe there's, especially on these Alaskan rivers before there's the eggs and the flesh from the salmon. And especially so I've heard of this and like, maybe I brought a couple mice to try it with. But I'd heard in sort of southwest Alaska, there's some of these Bristol Bay Rivers, there's like basically permanent mouse trout, like that's what they they don't can eat these anytime of the summer, fall, whatever. And, and we were eating basically fish on this trip, I'm almost always catch release, but this was back country enough where I felt comfortable with it, especially mostly salmon. But we did catch a rainbow early one day and weren't sure if we were going to get to another spot with good fishing, so we kept it. And as I'm in camp that night getting ready to prepare it, I start opening it up and I'm like, "What is this weird organ in here?" I'm not used to a big black organ in the middle of a trout. And I counted 16 distinct I don't know if they're voles or whatever, but 16 distinct rodents in its stomach. It was just-- and this was late August or early September. So it was just kind of shocking that, oh, this is definitely a thing up here.
Katie
Yeah. And there's that many rodents in the water?
Bryon
And they gorge themselves. This trout was like- I couldn't-- that's the only ones I could count. I don't know if there were more that were partially digested, but I've kind of read up more. they will take 16 or whatever in one night. I mean, I guess mice or rodents are less hesitant to travel on water than we would think, which I guess I don't think of terrestrial mammals as spending much time in water. I remember thinking I was way safer on an island from brown bears. And then I saw one swim for the first time, and I'm like, nope. Water is not an impediment to a brown bear be somewhere else. They were, they're crazy quick, but they were, I saw a number of swim in the Togiak and they're just, it looks like doggy paddle, but like they just walk to other up to their shoulders and then start swimming. And this is real cold water and it's sweeping them downstream as they're swimming and they don't care. I saw like a mama and a cub do it. And like, it wasn't like the, you could tell like that's just what they do. The cub wasn't panicking, the mom wasn't panicking. This is like, all right, we're crossing the river right now. And getting-- as much as you mentioned earlier, has running or taking up fishing changed what I'm looking at and interacting when I'm running? It's definitely the case. And it's funny that interacting more closely with the water has then introduced me to aspects of terrestrial life that I wouldn't have picked up on. Like the rodents, I never would have imagined I would have interacted with brown bears as much as I did on the Togiak. One of the things that gave it a green light is getting information from two independent sources in the somewhat distance past that it was very, compared to other rivers in Bristol Bay, and it flowed into Bristol Berry, a very low density of brown bears. That has changed. Every day we saw three or four, which was people, it's like, yeah, I was not expecting that. And it went from being hyper-vigilant, I don't want to say I dropped vigilance, like kind of being uptight about it at first night in camp and like worrying to some degree to remember that was Sunday night. I think it was Wednesday afternoon we were fishing and Cory was fishing at the upper river side of like a little Delta stream coming in. And I was walking down to this downstream side of it and across where the main part of the creek came into the river, there was a brown bear. And I don't know if it was 50, 60, 70 meters off, but it's there, it's on the gravel. And that first night, I'm sure I would have just like had the bear spray out in my hand, making noise like right away. Three days in, like I know where the bear spray is, I'm like cognizant of it. But the first thing I pull out is my camera to take video. Like, and as long as it doesn't, it hasn't even seen me yet. Eventually, like I take 30 minutes, or not 30 minutes, 30 seconds of video. It stands up on its hind legs, like it sends me, it looks over, Sniffs, looks around for two, three seconds, and then jogs off into the bush. One of the amazing takeaways from the trip was how, again, not that I became less vigilant or aware of storing food and that sort of thing, but just becoming more comfortable, I guess, with brown bears in just a couple of days was something I wasn't expecting. So, I don't know, it was kind of fun.
Katie
I wanted to ask earlier, but I didn't get to it. What Packraft brand did you have?
Bryon
I had an Alpacka raft caribou. I got the recommendation from a person who bike packs and this was, the caribou was meant for bike packing 'cause it's got a really buoyant bow, but it also handles heavy loads really well. And this was gonna be a six or seven day flow 'cause you're trying to get in on Saturday rather than Sunday. And that's a lot of food. That's a lot of gear. I mean, we have a bunch of fishing gear. I mean, more fishing gear than I needed. you don't know what the weather conditions or how you're gonna handle them is. So like definitely more clothes than I needed in the end. Like just more, I think with initial food and all the gear like it was probably 60 or 70 pounds in my pack raft. So yeah, just having something that has capacity was nice. It was interesting, I was saying not to his fault, like to his adventurous credit, Corey hadn't been in a pack raft until we were literally starting to float. as I had never even filled up the cargo fly. I mean, that's what Alpacka Raft has a feature called a cargo fly. And it's like a T-zip, a waterproof zipper on the rear of the boat that fully unzips a couple foot opening and you load, you can load your gear into the tubes of the pack raft. So that gives it a huge capacity. And I'd never used that before. I packed it to test things like a couple of days before as we're packing up, but like, just kind of learn it yourself. I never, like, how do I open this? Okay, this feels a little tight. Oh, and then it goes and you just go with it. So, but it was a really good, it was a great raft. Definitely no complaints. It held up well. I think after using it probably roughly 15 times during that trip, there was like a slight abrasion on one of the panels. So I put a little AquaSeal, more for added durability than anything else. But like it held up valiantly. And especially it's not ideal use, But if you have 70 pounds of gear and you're trying to get from the shoreline, I don't know, 100 or 200 yards into camp, you're kind of dragging it, kind of lifting it. It's getting upgraded. Not abused, but used.
Katie
Right, right. And another quick question on the beginning of your trip. You said that you did kind of a test little packraft at the beginning on a different river. How did you transport yourself? If you packraft down, how'd you get back to your vehicle?
Bryon
I've got a really nice looking thumb. No, serious, that was the plan. I think this first one, that day, I did meet up with this guy and we, so we did a shuttle. And this was, I want to, I'm trying to think of how many river miles that would have been. I can't remember if that was a 10 or a 17 mile day, but after that, and like, we went into like the, on that, that was the Kenai River, and we went up to like the upstream put in, like by the, where the lake has an outlet into the river and went down one or two big landings and stashed a car there, the car shuttle. After that, I was staying at Copper Creek. I forget which, there's two campsites right across from each other, but the one that's on the water and would literally inflate my pack raft and just launch there and float and, you know, hitchhike back. I think at least the first couple of times I did carry like a big pack that would have been sufficient to carry it back. It would have been a crappy kind of highway walk back, but I'm an endurance runner.
Katie
You could do it.
Bryon
And chances are somewhere along the way, I would have got picked up. A good tip for getting picked up though was wear your waders rather than just being a random guy hitchhiking on the side of the road. there's going to be some fisherman that wants to hear you what you've been up to.
Katie
Yeah, it's like the ski rule. If you're holding a pair of skis near the ski resort, it's much easier to get a ride than if you're just some, I don't know, guy dressed in rags on the side of the highway.
Bryon
I hadn't heard that one, but it's exactly the same principle. So I definitely got some from like a couple of rides from guides. A couple of people like in the parking lot kind of would see me packing up and either we'd be just chatting and be like, "Hey, are you headed back toward Cooper Landing and they'd be like, yeah, and can you drop me off? Everybody was super helpful. So yeah, I was bumming it, but I don't know. I tend to be a person, in Silverton, we have the Colorado Trail and Continental Divide Trail pass through nearby and a lot of people will come off the trail to resupply. In Silverton, we've got a little grocery, we've got some small hotels, people will take a shower, whatever. So I'll often give people rides from, kind of get out to the little highway and then I'll give them a ride up so yeah the karma paid off in the end
Katie
I know I took us kind of back to the beginning I don't know if there was more to the the main stem of the trip or if that was kind of wrapping up so if if there's more please continue otherwise I'd also have to hear like if you've got any tips on anything you learned that you would consider a tip for somebody else trying to do a similar trip
Bryon
Yeah, I mean part of the the in trip well it was interesting on this one we flew in with pilot who had his own guide service for flying service for 30 years. And he worked for the lodges around there for 10 years before that. And as we're flying in, he's like, I've never heard of anybody floating all the way out to the town of Togiak because you did have to cross the bay. And we did check in the last night at Togiak River Lodge. And they're like, try to insist on us catching a ride out. What's going to go to into town? They're like, I don't know, five or six miles out of town. And they go into town a lot of days to pick up groceries or whatever, or guests. And so they were super kind and were like, we'll pick you up at three tomorrow afternoon and at this little island or whatever and we'll take you down. And we shrugged all that off and did end up going across the bay because we had favorable windy but going the right direction forecasts. So at least on the Togiak, just know that if anybody's ever thinking about doing that one, most people either get flown out or get a jet boat out from lower on the river we were. We did take a bush plane into the headwaters at the outlet of Togiak Lake, which is kind of common. There's a bunch of, a number of other, you can take some of the other side streams in or go into the river above Togiak Lake and even up at upper Togiak Lake, another good set of miles up. But we thought this was a reasonable trip. We planned, I think this was, we'd hoped that it would be like basically six and a half days, I would just call it seven, and it got to be six because of weather didn't allow us to fly out the first day. And then we covered 60 miles. As somebody who was interested in fishing, I definitely would have loved another day.
Katie
Okay. So you think just kind of like slowing things down, if you had the time to slow things down and spend more time fishing?
Bryon
Yeah. I would have tried to figure out a camp a little higher up and fished more during that first day. It just seems like a rush. It's not crazy expensive. This is like 1200 plus or minus to take the bush flight for two people from Dillingham into the river, normal, reasonable flight within Alaska on like commercial service. And then I had to fly from Togiak back to Dillingham, which is a semi-expensive flight. So the cost of being on the river is nothing essentially, whatever snacks you bring, but that's what, you know, no more than the food you have at camp or your home. So yeah, I would say slow it down if you can, but it's It's hard 'cause, and it's also a couple of days to get in there 'cause you're flying to Dillingham and then flying in and it's just logistics are hard. It's hard to know. We lucked out and had a friend, I had a friend who was gonna be working in Togiak, but I don't even know if there's any official lodging. I think you kind of have to reach out to somebody who works at the town or like try to figure out a homestay or something like that. I think that's the case with some of these, if you're doing it yourself. Now there are, as I mentioned, a bunch of guide companies, whether it's Togiak River Lodge, or Tesla Lodge, or some others that kind of have more like tent camping situations, which would be really fun. Like I'm super frugal, so I can't see that happening in my future anytime soon, but it would be an amazing experience as well to be able to be in a drift boat. Like, oh my God, floating these waters, and it'd be great to station over a hole of silver sometimes but to have an egg out there floating when you're in rainbow territory, would be awesome too. But in terms of tips, one thing that I didn't know before going to Alaska was what to do with my rod. Because it takes time to set it up and break it down each time. Like it's not huge, but it's a hassle. So I remember in a couple of days before leaving Colorado for the road trip, I built like a PVC two-inch pipe with a cap on one end and cut a slit for the reel and a cap for the other end. And then I strapped it onto my pack raft in Alaska. And it was totally heavy enough to tip over- not tip the raft, but skew it heavily to one side. So I scrapped that. And I didn't even test it in floating. But when we were in Anchorage before flying and just kind of out to Togiak, I was like, what if I got a length of pipe insulation, like just that black foam that has the little like a self-adhesive strip in it that you'd like wrap around a pipe so it doesn't freeze. And it turns out that was awesome. I cut like, I don't know, three or four foot length. I didn't feel like I needed something to cover the entire rod, but enough to cover the rod from maybe the real, the couple feet sort of past where it would be laying next to me. Like at the tip, it's out there. I just have to be careful. You have to be careful about if you're rafting with others, to make sure that they don't get close enough to bump into you, or if you're dealing with brush along the sides, like to be careful a little bit. But in a week of doing that, and then getting back on the Kenai River after that, it was a really good solution. I never felt like it.
Katie
So your rod was built up, like while you were rafting?
Bryon
Yeah, totally. And maybe not to, I think I was gonna say not to start the day, but at some point I just didn't break it down. I would just keep it set up. And it was just nice 'cause you would just be floating along be like, "Oh, what about that hole?" And then you kind of scout it or get the sense and like, "Oh, you can go stop for a couple minutes and not feel bad about it, giving it a shot. You just didn't waste any time." It led to exploration. I mean, maybe if you were going with a guide company, you wouldn't have to do that because they'd have their holes already picked out. But we're on-siting everything. I don't know a name of a single hole or I don't know any location that we should try to fish. So it was being flexible. But I say that, but then when I got back to the Kenai and did a bunch more floats by myself down that, going mostly for silver salmon, I kind of had my holes where I was going to fish most of the time. But still, I always became uncomfortable enough with the safety of that setup, meaning the rod was going to be safe, that I would just set it up the first time I was going to fish on that if I didn't have it set up from the start and just be real comfortable with that. Another tip for combining pack rafting and fishing, it's funny because pack rafts, especially with alpaca, fly fishing was a part of those pack rafting out from the start. I kind of reached out to hoping that maybe the founder would be able to give me some tips and I need to follow up so maybe he can build some tips of pack rafting and fly fishing together. figuring out on my own, learning it yourself again. So, I mean, I'm wearing a dry suit. Actually, a semi-dry suit was a really good tip that I learned. The difference between a semi-dry and a dry suit is a dry suit has a latex neck gasket that can be really, really uncomfortable. Corey had bought one and used and didn't like it at all. He ended up renting a semi-dry suit to be more comfortable, a semi-dry suit from the start. Maybe if you're whitewater kayaking a lot, or maybe if you're doing some stuff off the coast, like in the ocean, maybe the dry suit might be the way to go but whether it was the Kenai or the Togiak or class one or two waters in the US, maybe touching class three, especially if you're one of the people like I was totally comfortable being in a semi-dry suit that was way more comfortable. Always wearing a PFD. I did actually get a fly fishing vest and it was awesome. I don't know the model, but there's a real simple Patagonia vest that I think is one size fits all. And I could expand it that it fit over my PFD. And that was just awesome. And at the same time, when I wasn't combining running and fishing in Alaska, it would also, I could cinch down the different cords enough or the straps enough, but I could just wear it as a normal fishing vest. So it was great to have one fishing vest for these longer outings or more fishing specific outings that still did work really well with pack rafting. And also, I don't know, I assume most other fishermen are this way. You just get used to having your stuff in certain pockets. And like, if you build up the system, then you don't, you know where it is and you're not futzing around looking for it. So it was nice to have basically my salmon fishing get up, get it known for both a normal day along a river or pack rafting. I had one more pack rafting. Oh, so a dry suit or semi dry suit doesn't come with a belt. I just, I mean, you could use whatever cheap belt. I think I found some fishing belt, like fishing wader belt along like some parking lot at like a landing. But it's just really nice to have something to tuck. I'm glad I thought of it before going on the Togiak it was really nice to be able to shove my net there.
Katie
Okay. And so the belt's purpose was to hold your net or did it also serve purpose like stopping water from getting somewhere like it does for waders?
Bryon
Not really. It was much, not just for the net. I also had not hemostats. I had a whole pair of pliers because these are pretty big flies and definitely big fish. So I had pliers and even most importantly bear spray. I was always on my hip. So just having all that stuff at the ready was really nice.
Katie
Sure. And I guess my last question is do you happen to know if you're willing to share like roughly how much you spent on the trip total?
Bryon
On the Togiak portion of it, it was probably – let me – it's going to take a second to do the mental math. I mean, flights were probably 1500, stayed two nights, no one night on the front end. It wasn't supposed to be a night, we got an apartment. So that was probably another 100 per person. 16. I mean, it was under 2000 bucks, probably if you didn't doing pack rafting and fishing for the first time, I definitely made a bunch of impulse last-minute purchases that kind of were repetitive. I had those wet wading booties that I've used, but I also got a pair of NRS, thinner ones that just are good protection between a dry suit and waders or wading boots or sneakers or whatever just to protect the suit. Anyway, I'd probably say about $2,000 a person.
Katie
That's really not that bad though to go on an epic DIY trip in Alaska. I think a lot of people view that…
Bryon
That's one of my, I should say, that's from being in Alaska.
Katie
Right.
Bryon
Yeah, I did the flight to Alaska.
Katie
But still, I feel like a lot of people would assume that this thing costs many thousands of dollars you've got to save up for years to afford it. It sounds like you get a flight to Alaska, you spend a couple of thousand dollars and you have, for some people, might be considered a once in a lifetime trip, and it really doesn't have to be.
Bryon
It was a total dream trip. Yeah, and I compare that to, and not to, I mean, if I got the gift of it, I'd love to do one of those lodges for a week, but I just can't foresee myself spending eight or 10 grand once there on a week, which is the same cost. And I could have made it a two week trip on the Togiak and it wouldn't have been, again, aside from some incremental cost of food, which you have when you're at home anyway, it's like, it costs nothing. And the same, you could combine that with a week on packrafting and fishing on the Kenai, which is super famous fishing waters a couple hours from Anchorage. The campsite was like 20 bucks a night. And with a packraft and hitching or most a car show, you'd have to rent a car then if you didn't drive up. But again, you could do it really frugally. And there's people who again, stay at a lodge on the Kenai and they'll do a couple of flyout trips and all that. I think that would be dream trip to the next level. But let me tell you, just doing the float of the Togiak and having that a genuine backcountry experience at the same time as like a lifetime pinnacle fishing trip, like to combine the two is what really set that apart. Either aspect is one of those once in a lifetime events and you're doing it both together.
Katie
Yeah. I think it's just one of those things that it's easy to forget that you can just go up a DIY trip in Alaska and that you don't have to do the 10 grand lodge experience. Like you could, and that's great that that's an option.
Bryon
Yeah, totally, no judgement.
Katie
Right, yeah, but sometimes that feels a little out of reach and knowing that you can go up and save a couple thousand dollars and go do it yourself. Like in some ways it would be more rewarding to do that than to spend all the extra money on the lodge that now you're on their itinerary and their schedule and everything and you don't get to be in charge of all the decisions that are being made and everything.
Bryon
And there's advantages, like they know which, some productive holes to fish. Sure, sure. And there's a couple of guides and they can tell you what's where, and they'll know what's turned on and what's turned off. And the silvers have come up this far up the river or that big rain slowed them down, down river or whatever.
Katie
Yeah.
Bryon
There's the advantage, but I personally, not even additive, the multiplicative effect in there is the sense of discovery that comes with it. Not that I'm not discovering this land or something, but in the sense of, yeah, I'm figuring out where these fish are and trying this place and that place and they might fail. Then, oh, I got them here. Yeah, that was super fun. The same kind of researching campsites. I put a couple pins on my Gaia map and like, "All right, that one totally didn't pan out. We got to go another seven miles down river today. Let's get paddling." So, yeah, the explorational discovery kind of aspect was super cool. And it makes me – I hadn't even thought of it, but talking to you about this makes me like want to think about – I didn't do the lodge experience, but I've spent some time in Argentina. And the last time I went, I did fish a bit and did like a day float trip, which can be a great way to learn how to fish in a new style or a new place. Like when I first got to Alaska, I'd never fished for sockeye before. And it's totally weird. basically snagging them in the mouth. I'm glad I had a day to have somebody show me how to do it. In the same, I wanted to get refreshed on how to catch silvers. And so I did another day float once the silvers were running before going on the Kenai. Going back to Argentina, I'd love to research to know what kind of the camping rules are along some of these rivers are because I've floated one and I've seen some others and they look pretty doable in terms of pack rafting and fishing from packrafting, but I just don't know if you're allowed to step off up to the high water mark or what the private land rules are. But now it makes me want to look into other countries. Huh.
Katie
Well, that'd be a good use of a guide too, because they probably know the laws. It might be easier just to book a guide and ask them than it would be to go through all the hassle of Googling everything. And then you get all the other perks of one day of guided fishing.
Bryon
And the perks of a one day of guided fishing in Argentina are big. Like, some great fish, like, just great browns, great bows. The lunch was, I did it with some friends too, like my Argentinian family, like my second family down there, which was amazing. But the lunch, like having a true Argentinian asada with like a bunch of good beef and some chorizo and some cold beers and some like Malbec wine, like, and like just chilling for like an hour and a was worth the cost of the experience by itself. You're just hanging out with the guides. That was cool. A pro of being with a guide is not only what you can learn from them, but most guides I've been with have just been really cool people and interesting people. What are their stories? They love being out there too. Especially if you're putting good vibes to them, you're getting them back.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like that's a good way to really immerse yourself, especially in a foreign country like this. You know, get to know the culture is just to sit down with somebody who's from that area and just see what happens. You know, just see what you end up talking about. And I'm sure the stories start to flow after a while.
Bryon
Totally. Yeah. I had a good day getting guided in Bhutan of all places one day.
Katie
Not where I would have guessed as a premier fishing destination, but...
Bryon
I was not there for the fishing, but I kind of now, when I'm traveling, have gotten in the habit of not necessarily backcountry fishing, but if I go to a new place, like, "Hey," and I have enough time, the fun of researching how do I fish here? What are the actual regulations and how do I get a permit? Often that's a challenge in and of itself. I fish in Madeira, Austria, Thailand, Bhutan, just as a total accessories to trips to those places. That's all been really fun to try.
Katie
Maybe we'll need to do a future episode on DIY travel fishing because I feel like this is... A lot of people travel just for fun and they also like to fish. But if you're thinking of fishing only as a "I have to travel somewhere and book a lodge" and stuff, it feels a little bit like there's a barrier to entry there. But I feel like if you just turn your everyday traveling into a "How can I go out and just try to catch a fish here. There's probably a lot more opportunities than people would expect.
Bryon
Totally. I mean, like the same... I'm in New Zealand here for three or four months and you could come over with your family or whatever. And you could, whether it's just a day trip or there's these amazing huts here. And sometimes you need to get it back, whatever. They're cheap, really accessible, totally utilitarian, amazing places. But you could fish your way in a river one day, five or 10 miles up to a hut and then make a loop of it if you could, or just do an out and back and fish both directions. There's almost no place where the backcountry fishing is more accessible than New Zealand because of, I want to say that just the Department of Conservation, just the government, I think they have seven or 900 different huts in New Zealand.
Katie
Oh, wow. That's a lot for a small country.
Bryon
And then there's various private organizations, the Deer Stalkers, which is like their hunting club has one. I think some mountain climbing clubs have them. It's just like whatever. Usually you can get access to those club huts as well. So it's really amazing access. But it'd be fun to chat someday about DIY around the world.
Katie
Yeah. Well, Bryon, where can people find you if they want to follow your adventures? I don't know if you have much of a fishing presence online or if it's more of the running side,
Bryon
Professionally, I have lots of presence on the running side because that's still my trade. But I guess the best place is just to look for my personal sites on Facebook, Strava of all places, Instagram a little bit. And it's just with my name, Bryon, B-R-Y-O-N Powell in those places. And if you see an enthusiastic looking redhead either fishing or running, it's probably me.
Katie
Perfect. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. It's actually easier to find a time that works for both of us than I expected. But I still appreciate you taking time out of an amazing fishing trip in New Zealand to chat with me.
Bryon
Oh, totally my pleasure, Katie. Hope to see you at a Flyathlon or somewhere else on a river this summer.
Katie
I'm sure we will. All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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