Ep 102: Saltwater 101, with Tom Rowland

May 25

Tom Rowland has hosted and produced several fishing TV shows including Saltwater Experience, Into the Blue, and Life on the Water. He is also the founder of the Waypoint Podcast Network and Waypoint TV, and host of the Tom Rowland Podcast. Tom has a vast and diverse fishing knowledge, including many years of flats fishing experience. We are taking our first trip to saltwater fly fish this June in Belize. Naturally, I wanted to pick the brain of someone who knows what they’re doing. In this episode, Tom walks me through the basics of doing my first saltwater trip. We cover how freshwater fishing skills compare to saltwater skills, how to target various species, what to expect in terms of weather and water conditions, gear, and much more.

Tom’s Instagram: @tom_rowland

Tom Rowland Podcast Instagram: @tom_rowland_podcast

Saltwater Experience Instagram: @saltwater_experience

Waypoint TV

Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. this is episode 102 with Tom Rowland on saltwater 101. All right, great. I love to start by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the world of fishing. I know that your version of the world of fishing is very vast, so I'd love to hear how you just got your start in fly fishing, and I'm sure we'll go from there into what you've done with that.
Tom
Sure. Well, my start in fly fishing was, you know, my dad took me fishing a lot when I was growing up in Tennessee, but really it was just messing around a little bit. My real start, I got a job in Yellowstone National Park when I was, after my freshman year in college. And when I went out there, I saw things that I didn't even know existed. I saw clear water and trout and being able to stalk them. And, and I was, you know, I grew up hunting and fishing. And when I got out there, I realized, wow, these are, you know, it's both like you can hunt your hunting and your fishing. Like I had never really seen clear water like that and, and, and been able to like sneak up on a fish and it sees you and takes off. Like I'd never seen that before. I mean, most of the, most of the fishing that I had done before were, you know, murky water bass fishing and stuff like that, which is all great. And we would catch some on fly and mostly for bluegill and stuff like that. You'd throw little poppers and stuff. And it was kind of seasonal because there would be like little, little hatches on the lake and stuff. What we called the willow flies. I think it was a brown Drake really is what it was. But anyway, after that year, I decided that I really, really liked fishing even more so than the hiking and everything else. And so I was looking for a way to, to continue that. And I started looking in, Alaska and wasn't finding anything. I mean, this is before the internet and everything else. And my, my bright idea was that I was going to go to Alaska and work in a fish cannery. And, then, you know, I would be in a great place and I'd be able to probably have some time off and I'd be able to go fishing. And, I didn't have a car. I didn't know anybody in Alaska, never been there before. My dad didn't really see this as the greatest idea. And it really wasn't the greatest idea that it ever had. And somehow he, in the back of a little magazine, found a little tiny ad for a guide school called the Bressler Outfitters Western Rivers Professional Guide School. That's a mouthful. Yeah, I know. Well, he could have worked on the title probably, But that guide school spawned the careers of some really, really great people that are still in the industry today. And that's where I got my start. And so I started guiding. I was lucky enough to get a job with Joe Bressler in Jackson, Wyoming, fishing the South Fork of the Snake River, mostly the Teton, the Green, the Salt, the Spring Creeks that Orvis had down in the Star Valley. you know, and, and quite a few other, quite a few other places. And, and, and that was really the start of it. I did that for seven years. And, you know, in the meantime, I kind of graduated college and was looking to fish year round at that point and was looking at, all the different types of options. And I thought maybe if I was going to fish year round, it would probably be for trout. So I was looking for like Argentina, Patagonia, those places where if it's cold in Montana and Wyoming, then it's warm somewhere else, you know? And so I started, looking in those different places and, again, no luck. And so thought maybe saltwater fishing would be, would be an opportunity. And there was one, I didn't know anybody, you know, that was a saltwater fishing guide or anything like that, but there was one opportunity in the Cayman Islands, where the people that own the newspaper in Jackson, Wyoming, they also own a small lodge on, on little Cayman called the Southern Cross club. And there was a history of Jackson whole trout guides going to little Cayman and becoming guides in the winter time. And then they would guide in the summertime and Jackson and stuff like that. So my boss was one of those people, Joe Bressler. He had done that a bunch of times. And he said, if you want to go down there, I could set that up for you. You'd be great down there. And so I thought, okay, this is cool. And we were kind of getting more serious and thinking about getting married. And, this was a big move for us. So I took her with me down there and little Cayman is a tiny place. Very, very, very tiny place. And, the fishing is limited. It's good. It's very good, but it's very limited and it's very small. I mean, I think there was one truck on the Island, one telephone, About 18 people living on the island. And that just wasn't ideal in the time. And on the way back, we stopped in Key West and went fishing with my friend there. And I was just like, why hasn't anyone told me about this? This is perfect. I mean, the fishing is amazing. You could fish here for a lifetime. The weather's awesome. There's tons of tourists. You're in the United States of America. what's what, what am I missing here? And apparently I wasn't missing anything except, you know, there was a, there was a pretty high, barrier to entry, you know, you needed, needed a boat, a really good boat, and you needed to know what you were doing. both of which I didn't have, I didn't know what I was doing and I didn't have a boat. So, eventually, figured out how to get down there with the help of my friend, Mike Pollack and Simon Becker. And, it's been a year on the water learning and before I took my first trip and, you know, got started down there and, I would, I would guide in the, in Jackson in the winter, I mean, in the summer and then go down there in the winter time. And that was a pretty good, pretty good life for a little while. And, and then just moved entirely to the keys, and, spent a long time guiding down there before we got into television and all the other stuff. so that's, that's the, as short as I can make it probably.
Katie
I feel like the dual guiding in Jackson and in the Southeast is a really great way to stay really engaged with what you're doing. Because I'm just picturing, you're guiding the same rivers over and over again. It can be easy for guides to get kind of burnt out. And there are people it works for, for sure. But seeing the same thing, the same kind of clientele over and over again, I feel it can kind of wear on you. And I feel like to keep fishing exciting. Like this is your passion. This is why you got into this. Having the ability to every half year or so switch it up and go do something that's still within your wheelhouse, but is completely different in terms of what you're doing, where you're at, the weather, the techniques, that's got to be a great way to just keep it fresh all the time. So you're always excited about what's coming next.
Tom
Well, that certainly happened. And the other thing that happened in my career, which was very timely, and I don't know that it could be recreated at any other time, but when I started guiding in Jackson, it was before the movie A River Runs Through It came out, so a couple years before the movie, and it allowed me to get my feet underneath me. I kind of knew a little bit about what I was doing. I mean, we went from having four or five guides at this outfit to, and all of us working, you know, the top guide might work a hundred days. The, everybody else is, you know, getting 40, 50, 60 days. And Jackson was a, was a small place. I mean, it was a tourist town, but nothing like, nothing like today. And, and then the movie came out and that year we went from four, five or six guides to 25 guides. Every single person there working 80 to 100 days. And I mean, so that's like a 10,000% increase in business. And it wasn't just our outfit. It was every outfit in the Valley was doing the same kind of thing, staffing up and running trips. And so that was a, I mean, if you weren't around and certainly didn't have your finger on the pulse at the time of that movie, there has been nothing else like that. Even COVID brought a lot of people out into the woods and into the water and doing things that they weren't doing before. And there was a big surge of fishing license sales and a big surge of people getting into the sport, but still it was nothing like what we experienced back then. That movie was a massive, massive boost to, to fishing. I mean, it turns out Brad Pitt fly fishing on camera. A lot of people wanted to do that, you know, it was beautifully shot and the whole thing was great. And I don't know, it was just like a, it was just like a, you know, like a lightning bolt. Like, I don't know, it could be, you could produce another fly fishing movie today. I don't think it would have the same effect. It was just perfect timing, you know, and, and it really made a difference and everybody and their brother decided that they were going to go out to the west and try fly fishing this year. And so what that did for me was it gave me a lot of ability to get clients, not older clients, but newer, not old in age, but more experienced clients. It gave me the opportunity. I would get the good guides and the people that had been there for a while, they would get all the experienced anglers where the newer people would get all the new people. And so it was teach a fly casting lesson in the parking lot, get them to where they could at least get it out of the boat and we're fishing. And that was every day. So it really helped me to refine my teaching skills. And it was a real, it was a real blessing actually, because I would get people that had never held the fly rod before they were excited about it. So they were paying attention. They were interested in learning, but they had never done it before. And in fact, some, a lot of people had never even fished before of any kind. And so there was a tremendous amount of business like that, that, that was around for the, those first few years. And then a lot of those people kept coming back every year. They, it turned out they really liked it. It was great. They had the best vacation they'd ever had. They'd book again for next year. And then once I started, my saltwater career, I didn't have any business down there either. But what I did was talk to these people all summer long about what I was doing in the winter. And I'd been fishing with them for three or four or five years. And, and they all, you know, a good number of them were like, you know what, we're going to come down there for a week. And when you're, when you're a first year guide, there's no, you know, you don't have any respect from anybody around. Nobody's handing you business. And if you can come down there and book, you know, three, four, five, 12, 15 weeks of business, you're, you're in business, You know, and you're out there fishing and, and learning. And that's really the thing. It's, it's gotta be sustainable to the point to where, you know, there's gotta be a little bit of money coming in so you can afford to put gas in the boat and go out and look. And, so that was a very, lucky fortuitous time for me to have started that. I don't know. The same thing hasn't happened since it was perfect timing, you know, for me. And it was a good change of pace going from the West down there. But a lot of it was with the same customers. You know, that was kind of fun.
Katie
So you kind of answered this, but to what degree did you notice that the surge was not just a surge, but was actually kind of a permanent change? And I feel like you mentioned that we saw the same thing with COVID. But I feel like COVID kind of, when people had time off, maybe they weren't going to work as much as they could work from home. We saw that spike. And I'm sure some of those people kept it up. For the most part, I feel like we're kind of back to people who were doing it before COVID are still doing it. Maybe a handful of people who tried it, kept with it. But I feel like a lot of people have kind of fallen off now that they're back to their normal schedules. Was it really a permanent change or was it a spike like that?
Tom
It was a permanent change, but there were a lot of other factors that came into it as well. When I first started guiding in Jackson, there were a few drift boats on the water. I first guided out of a 20, 21 foot John boat. We'd row it backwards down the river and that was a perfectly fine boat. I mean, there were lots of them. Most people had John boats or, you know, some, there were a couple of drift boats, but not many. And there weren't many drift boat manufacturers that were selling boats in the, in the Rocky mountains either. I mean, people would just kind of go in a raft or they'd go in whatever, whatever, you know, there were a lot of rafts and stuff. they're also, right about that time was when the Gore-Tex waiter was, was created. And before that waiters were big and clunky and, and they, they were boxy and they didn't fit small people. So women, you know, good luck. You know, you're wearing, I mean, everybody looked like they were wearing their dad's stuff and they were eight years old. And so that became way more comfortable. Everybody was more comfortable. There were the boats started getting better. So we were actually in a proper drift boat, like a good fishing boat. Then the fly rods and the lines and everything started to improve. And there was this, you know, because there were a lot of anglers that were new to the sport. I think that was one of the reasons why you had these, these big innovations, but like the Gore-Tex wader, there was just time for that. And, and that came out and everybody was more comfortable. And then the clothing got better and everything got better. And so people were more comfortable in the summer, fishing in the fall, fishing in the spring. Everybody was more comfortable. And when you're more comfortable, you're more likely to do it more often. And so that that was a you know, there were quite a few things that happened right around that time that that made it to where people were having a really great experience with it. And, and they started to book year after year after year. And it wasn't just me. It was like all my friends were having the same experience. And that's when it kind of was like, okay, this is, these people are here to stay. And of course I was a young guide and I had not seen any other surge where people came and went. So, I mean, it just seemed like, yeah, they're here and you showed them a good time and they're coming back. And, you know, you have the, you have a lot of things in your favor when you're trying to get somebody to come back to Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I mean, the, the environment does a lot for you, probably more than you could ever do for anybody being a good fishing guide or showing them a good time or catching a big fish. I mean, it's a beautiful place to go. And in the summertime, it's, it's amazing. And people would go to guest ranches or they just booked the hotels in town and they'd have an amazing experience. And, and they kept coming back. So, yeah, it did stick around.
Katie
Now, I get the impression that you and the rest of your community had a positive view of this. And I'm picturing that in today's age where if a movie came out today and a huge surge of people came fishing, like more than are fishing right now, but let's say it increased another 10,000 percent. I think the attitude in the existing community would be pretty negative. Like, you guys are just out here because this movie came out. Now the rivers are all crowded. I can't find a place to fish. Like go home where you were and leave it to the people who were out here first. But it sounds like back then you it was kind of viewed as a positive. Like we're getting all this business that we weren't getting before. Is that was that the attitude or was there a bit of like resentment toward these folks?
Tom
Trust me, you know, no matter what happens, there's there's there's two sides. OK, some people are going to be believe me back then. I'm sure that that they were super upset that all these people were here and used to be able to go down this river and you wouldn't see a single boat for three days. And now there's a whole bunch of people and all the guides are out here. And I'm sure that there were plenty of people that were extremely upset about it and probably still are. But as a, you know, the other side of that, as a young guide, you're trying to, you're trying to get in and get business. You didn't have any business before and now you're flush with business. So you're happy about it. Yeah. Okay. Today, if there was a 10,000% increase, I'm sure that the, the established guides, the established anglers, the people that have been doing this a while wouldn't particularly like that. But there's plenty of people that are trying to get into the business of fishing, fly fishing or regular fishing, and they're opening up a fly shop or they're trying to start their, they quit their job and they're trying to be a fishing guide. Well, you need business. Yeah. So those people are going to look on it as a positive where the more established people are going to look on it as a negative and, and that's going to happen anywhere, anytime. It's like, if you got something that's your spot and nobody else goes there, you don't want anybody there. But, but if you're trying to feed your family, you need somebody to go fishing with, you know? So there's a balance, I guess, somehow along the line. But, you know, back then I was just excited and, and just, I could, I still, you know, was, was, couldn't believe that somebody was paying me to go fishing. Like that was pretty awesome.
Katie
It's the dream. Yeah, it was. Great. Well, I know we're going to get to some saltwater information, which I'm going to pick your brain about. But before that, just kind of wrap up by telling me how you got from guiding to where you are now, because it sounds like at some point you kind of transitioned more into the entertainment, content, TV, podcasting. And tell me how you got to that point and where things are now.
Tom
Well, I had a lot of kids, so I got three kids and they're expensive. But the guiding, when I first started guiding in Key West, I was definitely the newest, greenest, least experienced one there. And I knew that and everybody else knew that. And so the thought of being in a fishing tournament or, or even opening your mouth at the, at the boat ramp as to what you might've caught that day was not even, not even in the card. So I put my head down and just tried to learn as much as I could for about 10 years. And somewhere along the line, there was an opportunity to fish in a fishing tournament. And I think the first one that I ever was in was the Redbone series. And there was a Superfly tournament before that. And I was fishing with Jeffrey Cardness. And at the time, the Superfly tournament was a one-day fly fishing tournament, fly fishing only tournament, that led into the weekend of the Redbone tournament. And back then, the Redbone tournaments were a really big deal. and there would be you know a hundred or so boats in there and on the superfly tournament they just it was sponsored by seamaster fly reels and and they were just trying to get some interest there and there'd be maybe 30 boats in there the one in key west was the first one that I'd ever fished in and it was a permit bonefish tarpon tournament and the way that these tournaments generally work is if you catch a tarpon you get 200 points catch a bonefish you get 200 points if If you catch a hermit, bonefish, and tarpon, all of them are worth 200 points. And you could catch 100 of any one species, and you'd have a lot of points, right? But if you catch one of two species, you would beat any number of one species. And if you caught three species, you would beat any number of two species. So the idea was you're trying to get a slam. And no one had ever done that before. So you would just catch, you know, a bunch of tarpon and, and, and a bone fish and you'd have two species and then it would go on that number of points. Well, Jeffrey and I managed to catch a slam in that tournament. It was the first time that it ever happened. And, that was really cool. It turns out that another person caught a slam in the same tournament and, we ended up getting second place in that tournament, but it was, it was a good finish and we were really happy about that. And then went on to, to, fish the weekend tournament. I really liked that tournament. I thought it was fun. And probably I learned more in that weekend than I had learned in a couple of years by watching the other guides, by listening to what people were talking about, by understanding that there was strategy and how people were doing this. And, I really learned a lot, which made me want to do more tournaments and all different kinds of tournaments. I started wanting to do just fly fishing tournaments, but then there's in the Florida Keys, there's tons of different kinds of tournaments. And the Redbone was a great starting place. And I got more and more interested in that because every tournament that I fished in, I just learned so much. And that's what it was all about for me. I was about trying to learn. And after 10 years of just thinking that, you know, you're the least experienced one there. And then all of a sudden you do well in a tournament. It's like, huh, Maybe, maybe I am doing okay. I don't know. I mean, let's go test it in this other kind of tournament. Let's go test it in this other kind of tournament. And some of them I would do well in and some of them I wouldn't do well in, but I started fishing more and more and more tournaments of all kinds. And, um, those tournaments led to a professional, tournament series called, the, well, there was the ESPN redfish cup. And then there was another, another redfish, series that I can't believe on a blank or the IFA. I got to look at a trophy back there. the IFA, was a, was a tournament series and you could get sponsorship and, and it was like bass fishing. It was, you would go all around the East coast from, from North Carolina, all the way down to Key West and all the way back up to Texas. And you would have tournaments all over the coast. And that was a real challenge. And it was a two person format. And so I had to find a partner and that's, that, that's where, how I started fishing with my partner today, Rich. and we went around and fished all those tournaments. Well, at the same time I was having, I had, two babies in diapers at home. My wife was taking care of them and it was very, very, very challenging for me to be away. I was leaving a schedule that people were years out. I would have a waiting list for years out for people to get these tarpon dates. And I'm deciding to leave and go try to catch a redfish in Texas. It didn't make any sense at all. And, even the payout wasn't very much if you did win, but again, I was learning a lot about all different kinds of fishing. I learned about sponsorship. I learned about tournament fishing. I learned about just a whole bunch of different things. And so I was interested in it, but it just proved to be, too much. And there was a hurricane that came through when we were fishing in Louisiana, came right over the top of Key West. And my wife was there with my two baby boys. And I just looked at Rich and I said, man, this is the last one of these I'm ever going to do. Never going to do this again. And, pretty much we drove back about 500, 600 miles in silence because I was just so down. I just didn't, I mean, I was so worried about my family. They were fine and everything, but, I just felt like I'm not where I need to be. I need to be there and I don't even want to be here. So I decided I was not going to do any more of those. And on the way, you know, we had, we had learned how to, how to sell some sponsors and we had developed some sponsorship relationships and, and, rich was just kind of, he waited patiently for about six or 700 miles. And then he said, well, you know, if we're not going to do these tournaments, do you think there's any, any way that we could keep doing kind of something like what we're doing, but not travel around? And I was, you know, a couple hundred miles went by in silence again. And I thought, well, you know, maybe we could do a TV show. And he said, well, what about a TV show? Do you know anything about a TV show? And I said, I've been on like 30 of them and it doesn't look that hard. And I had actually been, you know, a guest on a lot of different TV shows and it didn't really look that hard. I was very naive and it is hard. It's very hard, but it didn't look that hard. I mean, I show up, I catch them fish. They take off. I didn't know what happened after we left the boat with little did I know that actually catching fish on camera is the easiest part of doing a television show. But that was enough for us to say, okay, well, let's see if we can get this thing started. And that was the start of Saltwater Experience. That's been on the air for 18 years. And, you know, the television show, it's not easy. And it takes a lot more time than I thought it would. And that's what kind of led me to not guiding as much as I was before. I was guiding like 300 days a year. And, you know, it's very, very, very difficult to do that kind of a volume when you're trying to produce a television show. And then we got one television show produced. And a couple of years later, we thought, well, this is an interesting format. People seem to like this, this two host format. So maybe we should do an offshore show, kind of similar, similar kind of deal with two other guys. And so we did that. He had a friend, Scott Walker, and I had a friend, Steve Roger. And those guys got together and they made for a great pair. And that's the end of the blue and that's been on for 14 years. And, and then we, we started a bash show the same way and, and did kind of that, that deal. And, and that one has since we've sunsetted that show and started another one called life on the water. And, somewhere along the line, I started the podcast, because really what I liked about the podcast was that, you know, when I would film a TV show and I have a good idea for a TV show or a good guest idea. You know, this person would be perfect. And we'd film the TV show and that show might not air for over a year. And so the reward of thinking like, oh, this would be a really creative kind of cool idea to get this person on. you never realized anything out of it for a year and a half. And the podcast, you know, if I have that idea now, like I want to have a conversation with you, I could call you up. And if you wanted to do this, we could, we could set it up and, and have it done. And I could put it out this afternoon. It's, it's very easy. And it's the turnaround is so much less. So I enjoy that. And I like, I like kind of the podcast is kind of a creative outlet for me in a lot of different ways, but I don't know. That's how I ended up kind of transitioning there. I don't know if maybe a long way to tell you that.
Katie
Do you have a preference for one medium or the other, or are they both just like complimentary of each other and you like them each for their own things?
Tom
I do like them both for their own things and they are very different from one another. But in some ways they're kind of similar because the podcast really for me is like an extension of of what used to happen on the boat all the time. So I'm in, I'm in the boat with one other person. I'm pushing along for eight to 10 hours or in a, in a drift boat, rowing down the river for eight to 10 hours. And, you have these conversations, these, these crazy conversations that start out on the surface and, you know, two or three days later, you know, now you've been in the boat together for 30 hours and, and somewhere along the line, you know, you start talking about how this person started their business or, or, you know, the problems that they're having in their marriage or, you know, like the goals that you have or, or, you know, and, and of course, all along the way, you're talking about how to catch fish and how to do all these different things and how to get better at all this. And, but you would just have these, I would have these really interesting conversations with really, really interesting people. Like these people, they had time to come down and fish. So obviously they had done something in their life that afforded them the money and the time to come down and spend a couple of weeks in Key West. It's not cheap. And I would just learn so much from these people. It was amazing. And they became like family. And really the podcast for me is like recreating those type of conversations. Like just, You know, what makes somebody tick? What's interesting about them? Certainly a lot of fishing thrown in there, but, but also, you know, deeper or meaningful kind of things about what, you know, what this person's all about. So I like that about the podcast, the television shows, those, those are a real creative, outlet and I like them and don't like them for almost the same reason. I like them because you can create something that's really, really beautiful and inspiring and it can get a lot of people to want to have that same kind of experience but it's hard to do and a lot of a lot of times in order to get these incredible shots that you see any tv show getting you're having to do that in a way that you would never do it if you were just on a charter you would never do that like for the for them to have this perfect light on your face for example, while you're approaching a fish and cast out there and catch that fish, you're fishing into the sun. You would never do that. You can't see anything. And the fact that we've made that happen over and over again for 18 years is absolutely amazing to me because you would just, you'd be like, man, it's so stupid to pull into the tide, into the wind into the sun. Nobody would ever do that. But the guys that know their job, they're like, look, trust me, if you can catch a fish like this, it's going to be unbelievable. Okay. So we managed to make it happen after managing not to make it happen a lot. But that one time that you make something like that happen and the light's perfect and the fish, you know, like a tarpon jumps between you in the camera boat and, and you just get this thing. That's just absolutely amazing. It's just truly an incredible shot. And, you know, most people don't understand what went into that, but when I see that, I'm like, man, that was super challenging. That was super challenging, but it was worth it. And so I like that about the TV show, but it's, there's, there's a way longer, period to see that. It's years out. It's a year out almost. We film a year before a show is going to be out on TV.
Katie
Yeah, I can see that. There's nothing really stunning about any podcast I've ever listened to. Podcasts are entertaining, they're informative, but you don't come out of one feeling breathless, you know? and I feel like TV and photography has that, has that, market kind of cornered, you know, the, the, the visually stunning aspect. so I can see how they both, appeal to you. I think I would, I think I would not be able to do TV. I love podcasting, but, I appreciate people who have that creative eye and that can really make, make what is a small moment feel incredible. That's, that's really impressive to me.
Tom
It is. And, you know, you got to have a lot of talented people around you or I need a lot of talented people around me. There are people that are super talented themselves and they can do the fishing and the editing and, you know, almost all of it, even some of the shooting. That's not what we do. I have I have very talented people around me so that I don't have to do that.
Katie
Awesome. Well, I'm going to transition us over into kind of the body of the conversation that I wanted to pick your brain on, which is kind of saltwater. I guess I'd call it like saltwater 101 because I'm not going to necessarily do like a single species or anything. But the reason I wanted to talk to you is that we're going on our honeymoon in June and we're doing our first saltwater trip. And I'm about as new as you can get. I mean, I've seen saltwater fishing in like the F3T. That's about the extent of my knowledge on saltwater fishing. So I can't stress enough how little I know. And I'm going to kind of ask you for kind of an overview and maybe we'll dive into a couple of the major species and we'll see how we can spend on each one of them. But for somebody who has never saltwater fished before, which I would expect is actually quite a lot of people, if you had to do like an elevator pitch for saltwater, how it differs from freshwater maybe, like what to expect when you show up for your first day of fishing, maybe not related to any specific species, but just what is it like? What's the weather like? What skills should you expect to be good at? And what can you expect when you show up on the beach, rod in hand, ready to tackle your first day of saltwater fishing?
Tom
That's a great question. I don't know that anybody's ever asked me that exactly that way, but that's, that's a great question. So a lot of people are coming from areas that, you know, they trout fish, right? So it's generally cooler. so the weather is going to be amazing. It's going to be warm and, and the, the air is thick with, with humidity and you know, it's incredible. And if you hit it right, the wind won't be blowing that hard. but most of the time the wind's going to be blowing because you're in a tropical environment and that's what happens. It blows a lot. So the weather is amazing and the environment is incredible and it's a wild place. Like a lot of people that like to hike and backpack and go to places like Yellowstone National Park because they're wild and you can see grizzly bears and all kinds of stuff. Well, the flats are even more wild. You'll see barracudas eating bonefish. You'll see sharks eating permit. You'll see just crazy stuff. I mean, there are predators and there are prey, and you're going to be part of it. And it's incredible. The water is super clear. It's amazing. And you will be overwhelmed with all the new things that you're seeing, right? What to expect as far as what you'll be good at. Basically coming from trout fishing, nothing.
Katie
Okay.
Tom
You won't be good at anything. But that doesn't mean that you can't quickly learn and transition and you can. But what I would strongly suggest for anybody that is going to have their first saltwater fly fishing trip is to get some casting instruction from somebody that's been there and done it and understands what you're dealing with. Like going from a five weight to an eight weight or a nine weight for bonefish or a, or a 10 weight or 11 weight for, for tarpon or permit. It's a big jump. It's a, it's a really big jump and it's, you know, some people are going to take to it much, much better than others. But if you've only fished, you know, dry flies or, or, or nymphs and you're only fishing, you know, 30 or 40 feet away, even if you can double haul, there's a, there's a big difference between that and casting, you know, I mean, a short cast in salt water is, is 50 feet. And generally the wind is blowing on your right shoulder, harder than, you know, harder than you would, that it's harder than it's comfortable. a lot of times harder than you can imagine that it's possible to cast in that. And, and a lot of people get overwhelmed and kind of intimidated by that. But there, but, but if you, if you just learn a couple of things, like when your wind is hard on your right shoulder, well, if you, if you do a back cast presentation, now your, your, your cast is down, downwind, you know, on the other side, like now you have a, a hard right wind, you're back casting and it's blowing the line away from you and it'll never hit you. And you can be really accurate with it. but if you just get some, some casting instruction, make sure that you can double haul and make sure that you're capable and comfortable throwing 40 to 60 feet with with the type of rod that you're gonna that you're gonna be using and that's generally going to be an eight weight or above and and the difference really between saltwater fish there's a couple of big main differences between saltwater fly fishing and freshwater fly fishing. One that, you know, a lot of trout fishermen will hold the line in the air and add a little bit of line and a little bit of line and a little bit of line and a little bit of line until they get to where they, they want to be. And you're using a dry fly or something very light. It's very easy to do that. Even if it's, even if it's windy, in saltwater fishing. Well, I guess there's one other difference in, in trout fishing. Typically, you know, there's a lot of different kinds of trout fishing, but typically you've got a trout that's sitting stationary and the current is running over the top of the fish. So you're putting your fly out there and the current is delivering it to the fish. Now imagine that the same kind of thing is happening. You certainly have current in saltwater, but the fish is moving and you've got to put the fly out in front of the fish. So that's a really big difference. You have a moving fish as opposed to a stationary fish that you can just cast to over and over and over again. And if you get the current right, it's going to take the fly right to them. So that's a, that's a really big difference. And, you know, being able to, to double haul is a good thing because you can shoot line to the target and you can keep, your, your false casts at a minimum because the more you're false casting, the more that fish is moving and you've missed your window of, of being able to deliver the fly to the fish at an angle that that fish wants to eat it. And so now it's swam past you. Now you're casting of its tail and it's, it's over.
Katie
Got it.
Tom
And so you need to be able to quickly and accurately cast a 50 feet in salt water. That's, that will be the way that you'll catch more fish. Then if you can quickly and accurately cast a 50 feet, both with your forehand cast and turn around and throw a back cast to it without ever taking your eye off the target. Now you're going to catch a lot of fish. And then every little bit that you can increase that distance that you're comfortable and you're quick, you're going to be able to catch more fish. So if you can do that at 30 feet, that's one thing. If you can do it at 40, more fish, 50, now you're talking. If you can do that at 60 or 70 feet, now you're going to be a really good angler or a really good caster. Then there becomes hooking the fish and fighting the fish and all of that stuff, which takes some experience. experience. And that's not something that you're going to learn on the grass on a football field. You know, you're going to need to get that kind of experience. But what you can learn on the grass on a football field is how to shoot that line to the target. And there are several little drills that I would tell people about that are incredibly important. So if you're imagining, there's a lot of different types of practice you can do. You can pick up, you can go get your fly rod, you get somebody's eight weight or borrow an eight weight or whatever, go out to a football field or park, And you can aerialize that line and throw 50 feet and put it down. And then you can pick it up and put it down and pick it up and put it down. That's one kind of practice. The other kind of practice is doing exactly what you're going to be doing in the boat. And that is having 60 feet of line out, have a hula hoop or some sort of bucket or something at your feet, have one hula hoop out at 11 o'clock and 40 feet, and then another hula hoop at 10 o'clock and 50 feet or 55 feet or something like that. So this is what I call a two-target drill. So, well, there's really three targets because you have a hula hoop at your feet, which is simulating the deck of the boat.
Katie
Okay.
Tom
So when you're stripping the line into the deck of the boat, a lot of people get careless about it and they've never done it before. They're stepping all over their line. They're stripping it into the water. It's trailing behind the skiff, you know, 30 or 40 feet. It gets caught on the guide's push pole. It gets caught on the trim tabs. It gets caught on a mangrove chute. It gets caught everywhere. So a really good angler is going to be very, very good at line management and line control and being able to get the line into a small area and not step on it and have it be organized and not fall off the side of the boat. So a lot of people use a stripping basket or stripping, you know, some kind of a basket or they'll strip it into the cockpit of the boat. And so it's out of the wind. And that's the other thing that you don't know about when you get there is like, okay, I'll put it all in into this pile, like he said. And now it blows off the boat and it's a hundred feet behind the boat, caught on a mangrove shoot. And so that's a potential problem that happens. But in this drill, it's really a three target drill. You have two targets out there, 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock and at varying distances. And then you have this target at your feet. So you're stripping into this target at your feet. And then you're getting into what we call the ready position, which is where you have the fly in your left hand. And you have an overhanging amount of line that amounts to about 20 feet out. So you had about 10 feet of fly line out and your nine or 10 foot leader. You got 10 feet outside of the rod tip. Now, it would be nice if you could hold more than that. But typically, if you hold more than that, now that's getting caught on a mangrove shoot. or that's getting caught behind the guide's push-pull. So you want the maximum amount of line that you can have out that you can still manage. And if you're good at it and you can keep the rod pointed forward, that's another 10 feet forward as opposed to having it off to the side like this, which allows it to get behind you and for the guide's push-pull to catch it and for the trim stabs to get it and everything else. So now you're in the ready position on the football field and you imagine that your guide says, Okay, 11 o'clock, 40 feet, moving left, cast. And so you make this kind of roll cast delivery. One back cast, shoot to the target. Put it down. Okay, for whatever reason he didn't eat it, the fish is continuing to move to the left. So now you're going to pick this up. You're going to shoot some line to the next target, and you're going to put it down and strip it in. Okay, so then imagine, okay, well, that fish didn't eat it at all. So now you're going to strip back in. And this is an incredibly important skill to have is getting back into the ready position quickly. This is really, really important because a lot of people, oh, he didn't eat it. And then they want to make a couple of false casts and then they get it caught on a mangrove shoot. And then here comes a school of bonefish, the biggest one you're going to see all day. And you're caught on a mangrove shoot or a little barracuda eats your fly or a million things happen. So the, as fast as you possibly can get back into the ready position. And this is like, this is like an archer having, having the arrow, arrow pulled back and ready. This is like somebody, you know, a hunter, you know, having, having his gun prepared and ready. Like you got a shell in there, you make a shot, you got to get another shell in there and you got to be in, in ready, ready to go. so that's, that's what you're doing. You're getting back into the ready position. And so then you can imagine, okay, now you got a fish coming towards you at 10 o'clock, 50 feet. So you try to make that shot. He didn't eat it. Now he's coming closer. Now you have to make a shorter cast to 11 o'clock at 40 feet and you try to make that cast. And then you just continue to go back into the ready position, do the short one, then the long one, do the long one, then the short one. Each time you're getting back into the ready position and you're avoiding the temptation of going, man, this eight weight is awesome. And I can cast this further than I've ever cast any fly rod I've ever had in my hand. So I'm just going to sit here and cast it back and forth and see how far I can cast it. That's bad practice. It's wasted time, really. I mean, it's kind of cool to be able to cast the whole line or whatever, but typically, if you can cast 40 feet and 50 feet quickly and accurately, and you can do it long and then short, short and then long, you're going to be way, way, way better off than a guy or a person that can cast 80 feet with 40 false casts and takes his eye off the target every single time and then shoots the line. And it looks like some poor fly fishing ad where you drop the line out of your line hand and it's just kind of shooting out there. Always keep the line in your line hand, maintain perfect control over it, be able to cast it 40 feet and 50 feet, 50 feet and 40 feet and you will, you will catch a lot more fish.
Katie
A question about the, you know, say 40 feet and 50 feet, and you've got a fish at the 50 foot one and it's swimming toward you, but doesn't eat when it's at 50. Would you pull it in, take another cast to meet it at 40? Or would you try to like outstrip the fish and try to get your fly to kind of pass it? Or is that kind of a judgment call based on what's going on?
Tom
It's a little bit of a judgment call, but typically if you, if the fish passes over your fly and doesn't eat it and then you try to quickly strip it from behind him and pull it up in front of him typically it scares the crap out of him okay so what you typically would more likely would do and you could set your targets differently a little bit to where this this might be the case so maybe maybe the further one you cast over there you imagine that the fish has swam over the top of your fly and for whatever reason didn't see it you didn't move it in time or whatever. Typically you'll let that fish swim on past. Okay. Now strip in a little bit. Now let's pick up and go in front of that fish, you know, at a different target. Right. And now this time you're going to move it, in time. And so one of the things that I was talking about, about, some of these ads that drive me crazy is they'll have somebody casting and they're, they won't have the line in their left hand. If they're a right-handed caster, you know, if you can get in the habit of making like an okay sign and having that line shoot through your okay sign and never lose that because as this fish is swimming and let's say that 50, 40 feet is not a challenging cast to you. Well, a lot of people will throw more than 40 feet and the leader will pile up and it's just out there in front and the fish swims over and he's perfectly happy to eat this thing if it moves, but you have so much slack in your line now because you stop the rod too high and it goes out there and falls down to the water. And then you drop the rod to the water. Now you have eight feet of slack in your, in your line. So you're stripping, stripping, stripping, stripping, stripping just exactly like the guide says, but you're not moving the fly. And that's what is incredibly important is to, when you're practicing, stop the rod and then, then follow through right to the water to where you have basically painted a line from your fly to your, your, your stripping hand. And that's opposite of trout fishing to where you want to purposefully throw slack into the line. So you get a good drift, right? And then you're mending and you're, you know, there's all these casts, wiggle casts and all these crazy casts where you can purposely throw slack in the line. But for saltwater fishing, you want exactly the opposite. You want to be in perfect contact with your fly. So if you move your stripping hand a quarter of an inch, that fly moves a quarter of an inch. But most people, when they're getting started, they think they're moving the fly a quarter of an inch and they don't understand why the fish didn't eat it. But the fly only looks good if it's moving in most, you know, for most flies. I mean, some flies, or even if they think it looks great and they go over and they eat And you pull back and try to set the hook. Nothing's there. Oh, he didn't need it. Well, no, he was chewing on it. But you have so much slack in your line that you can't get it. So that's a thing. That's also a thing that doesn't come necessarily just from experience. That comes from practice on dry land or on a swimming pool or wherever you can to where you get that line to go out there. You follow through to the water. And you can look out there and be like, okay, am I in a, am I tight to the, to the fly right now? And if you have like a piece of yarn or something on the end of the fly, if you move the line, does that move? If that's the case and you're getting in that, in, in that every time that you're casting, you're going to be, you're going to be in great shape when you get there. And if you can cast a 50 feet and 40 feet, and when you pull the line, the end of the line's moving, you're going to, you're going to, you, you're, you're better than 80% of the anglers right away. right and then you know it comes to okay well this is still an unfamiliar environment you're not sure exactly what you're looking for you've never seen these fish before the guide's super excited because apparently this is a really big one and he wants to catch it you know it's like you know you still have to kind of overcome that and those are things that you you learn on site those are things that you learn when you're there of how to see the fish what you're looking for what is a shadow what is moving, what is, what am, what am I looking for? And hopefully, you know, you'll, you'll get to see that. And sometimes, you know, the old trick is when somebody does catch a fish and you haven't seen very many of these fish, whether that's a bone fish or a permit or a tarpon or a barracuda or anything you catch, even if you catch a bycatch of a little snapper or something like that, when you let that fish go, you watch that fish swim away until you can't see it anymore. And that is like an old trick that you'll read in any Lefty Cray book or any book that you pick up. But that still is one of the best ways to learn how to see a fish because you know where the fish is and you see it swimming away. And as it gets, you know, you can't miss it when it's five feet away. But as 10 feet away, it's a little harder to see. 20 feet away. Whoa, really hard to see. 30 feet away. Wow. Look how camouflaged it is. 50 feet away, it's disappeared. and and the more you can do that and watch that fish swim away into the glare into perfect light you know the the better you will become at seeing fish very very quickly so all of those things happen when you're when you're there but the things that you can work on before you go are those casting drills and then just getting back into that ready position and then the delivery from the ready position to the cast can be tricky, you know, and there's a lot of videos out there now on YouTube and stuff that can really help, but there's no substitute in getting out there and actually practicing.
Katie
Would you recommend during the practice to have something of like an equivalent weight on the end of your line, either the fly you would use? I feel like sometimes that gets a, becomes a hassle when you're practicing because it's getting caught in the grass and stuff, But would you put like a clump of feathers on the end of your leader just to get the feel for there's a fly out there, especially if it's like soaking wet? I mean, I have to imagine that you can feel that.
Tom
Yeah. So like a bonefish fly, you could just cut the hook off and you got a bonefish fly. And some bonefish flies are very light, like as light as trout flies.
Katie
Okay.
Tom
Other bonefish flies are going to be permit fishing or something. You're using a merkin. Definitely. If you've never thrown a heavy weighted fly like that, you should definitely do it. And then the other thing that is, that is challenging is a lot of times that, you know, you, you've practiced with a, with a nine foot leader and you get there and your, your guide puts a 12 foot leader on and a heavy fly. Well, that's, that's a whole new ball game that you need to get used to. So, you know, it, it would, it would certainly help, you know, to, to cut the hook off and throw a weighted fly, like something like you're going to throw. If you, you know, if you, if you're going with a certain guide and you're, and he can, he can tell you like, yeah, this is the fly that I'm using 90% of the time or something like this. It's this heavy, you know? Okay, cool. Well, can you buy that from him or can you buy one somewhere else or can you tie one yourself and then cut the hook off? And then you're, you're practicing with the thing that is most like what you're going to actually fish for. That would be very beneficial. But if you can't do that, then it's not like, well, I don't, I don't know. I don't have the weighted fly. So I'm just not going to go practice. Go practice. Always go practice. But the more realistic you can make that practice to your actual fishing, the better off you're going to be.
Katie
Okay. Now, when it comes to the fish eating the fly, what tells you that it ate? Are you going to feel it because you're pulling the fly? Are you going to see the fish eat it? Is the guide going to start yelling and you're going to have no idea what's going on? How are you going to get the signal that the fish is eating the fly? All of those things are going to happen.
Tom
Okay. All of them are going to happen mostly at once. now if you're if you're you know if you've been practicing like we're talking about and you are in in contact with the fly and you are actually moving the fly and let's just say for bonefish you know the bonefish is going to come over to the fly and it's going to eat the fly and as you pull that fly it's going to feel exactly like you just it just hooked it in the bottom it's just going to come tight. And, and so if you're practicing on a football field with, with a weighted fly and it gets hung in the grass, that's what it feels like right now. It's going to feel different in one second as the thing turns and goes the other way, that's going to feel quite a bit different. But when the actual hooking of the fish, it's going to feel just like you hung at the bottom and you just keep stripping because there's, there's more stretch than most people realize in the leader and the fly line, most fly lines are very stretchy. So to actually get the hook into a fish, you come tight and then you stretch and you pull some of that stretch out and you come tight again. So a lot of times it's one pull will, and you're always setting the hook with a strip strike rather than any sort of a trout set. And for whatever reason, I don't know exactly what the physics are. I've thought about this for countless hours and days on the water, why the trout set doesn't work very well for bone fishing. 95% of the time you trout set and, and the fly just shoots out of the fish's mouth and you don't hook them. Whereas if you're just stripping with a rod pointed exactly at the fish and you strip and it comes tight, the hook goes right in there and, and you, you hook them. but you don't want to trout set, like lift the rod up and the temptation is there. I mean, most people do it on their first trip and sometimes the hook goes in there and you actually hook them, but most of the time you miss them and the guide gets mad.
Katie
I'm sure the guide's going to be getting mad at me a lot.
Tom
Well, you know, but if you're practiced, you know, the guide's going to be, on the other hand, if you practice a little bit, the guide's going to be super happy to have you. I mean, they're going to, they're going to be like, okay, we can catch them. I can work with this. Like we can catch some fish, just a little tune up here or there. Maybe you trout set once or twice. That's no problem, man. You can, you'll, that's, those are all things you learn kind of on site, but you know, that to be able to cast quickly and accurately 40 to 50 feet, which doesn't sound like it's that hard, but when you do it, when the wind's blowing, it's a little more challenging, strip your line into the boat, you know, and then, then have the discipline to keep the rod down when the fish bite. If you get in a situation where the fish is pretty decent, you stand to catch a lot of fish.
Katie
Okay. On to some of the actual species. So the big three that I think most people think of are bonefish, tarpon, and permit. And for somebody who's never done saltwater, it's really hard for me to differentiate these as anything different than like a brown trout, a rainbow trout, and a brook trout. There's differences, but they're not that big. But from what I've heard, it's like they're pretty different in the way that you're fishing for them, in what they're eating, how they behave, and even the gear you're using. So I know we don't have time to go into like a deep dive of each one of these species, but can you tell me just kind of the major differences between them? Why permit are so hard to catch, it sounds like, compared to something like a bonefish, which sounds like a little bit more low-hanging fruit. What are they like? What are you doing to fish for them in general? How do they behave? Just kind of an overview of each one.
Tom
Typically, the difference between bonefish and permit, for the most part, is that you get way more opportunities at bonefish than you do permit. A lot of places don't see many permit very often. And a lot of places have guides that fish for bonefish primarily, and they don't really look for permit. Now, my experience is that when I go look for permit, I don't see a lot of bonefish. It's deeper water. The bonefish may be there, but typically you're not seeing them much. I mean, you might be fishing in five or six feet of water, where in bonefish, you could be fishing in water that the boat will barely go in. So if that's the water that you spend 98% of your time, you're not going to see a lot of permit. You're going to see them when you're leaving the flat. You're going to see them when you're getting to the flat. But if a guide is getting paid, and most of his anglers want to catch bonefish, they spend their time in that water. When I started guiding in the Keys, permit became my number one fish to go for and to catch. But we didn't have a very good bonefish fishery there. It's since gotten a lot better. So I could find more permit than I could find bonefish, way more, right? But now it might be a little bit different. but a lot of guides don't specialize in permit and they don't fish for them, you know, 250 days a year and they don't fish in the places where they are. They're near the bonefish. And on some flats, you can see bonefish and permit and tarpon in the same little area. But for the most part, it's a little bit different. Permit like a little bit, I mean, you know, they're a deeper body fish. They require a little bit more water. Sometimes they'll get super shallow and, you know, there's always outliers in places where you can see both of them. But for the most part, you don't see as many permit as you do bonefish in most destinations. You can go to some places where like the typical rule of thumb for me is the further south you go, the more plentiful the bonefish get and the smaller they get. The further north you get, the numbers decrease, but the size increases. And so in the northern locations, you might see more bonefish and permit in the same kind of flat area because the bonefish is bigger. It requires more water. The permit also requires that much water, and you can see them. Permit like to eat some different things than bonefish, I guess. Fly fishing is perfect for bonefish. Bonefish love bonefish flies. They eat them really well, really well. And a lot of times you could, you know, if you were fishing with shrimp and you got a great fly caster and you've got a great spin caster and you're fishing with shrimp and he's fishing with fly, the fly angler can outfish the spin angler. That's never going to be the case with permit. If you have a live crab, they like live crabs. So I don't think that the flies that we use are very good for permit. And so in order for them to, to think that it's something that they want to eat, the fly typically needs to be falling. and that's when it looks the best to the fish, as opposed to being stripped along the bottom, the bonefish really, really likes that. So they're a little more tailored towards the fly presentation and you see more of them and people, you know, locations have been, specializing in bone fishing for a lot longer than permit. So the guides are better at bone fishing. Now there's some excellent guides at permit fishing if you go on to the right places. And they do see a lot of them and catch a lot of them. But for the most part, bone fish. You see more. You get to cast it more. They like the flies better. But permit are extremely spooky because they are wider bodied fish. They're in water that they don't really fit in. And they are super wary of everything. And so one little click of the boat, one little shadow over them, and they blow out. Bonefish typically will also be in bigger schools. Like you might see 10, 20, 200 of them. And typically schooling fish feel a little more secure than a single fish does by itself. Then tarpon. Tarpon also really like flies and it can be very, very productive. Tarpon can also have a extremely poor attitude and not want to play ball. Okay. All at all. So, you know, tarpon would be more like a streamer fishing for, for trout, where you're, where you're throwing something that looks like a swimming creature of some sort, a minnow, a shrimp, something that is swimming. You're going to animate it by pulling on the line. And that's going to be probably the most like any sort of a trout fishing situation that you would get. Like you're moving the line. The tarpon comes up in the middle of the water column, eats it, turns. You set the hook and fish on. Just very similar to throwing streamers up against the bank. where the bonefish in the permit you're you're trying to get the fly to fall to the bottom and you're doing something along the bottom which is not necessarily what a lot of fly anglers are doing right they're they're getting the dead drift they're they're doing something different so unless you're used to fishing like crawfish patterns for carp or something like that that would be that would be a similar kind of thing that you're doing for bonefish or permit but the tarpon you know you can you're you're you're pulling something along kind of like a streamer So that would be a little more familiar for a lot of trout fishermen.
Katie
And what kind of water are the tarpon in? You mentioned bonefish and the real shallow stuff. often permit are kind of mid-range. Where are tarpon hanging out?
Tom
Well, you have a couple of different tarpon fisheries. You have the fishery for what I call baby tarpon, which would be fish up to about 40 or 50 pounds. And then you have migratory tarpon. And like in the Florida Keys, we're very lucky that we're part of this tarpon migration. the big population of tarpon moves up and down the Florida Keys at a certain period of time of, of the year. And so you're going to go out on the ocean side. You're going to see these big migratory schools coming along and you're going to try to fish for those. They'll also be in the back country areas and the water will be, you know, anywhere from four to 12 feet of water. Then you can fish them in deep channels and stuff like that. And, and I almost think that's like a different sport. That's like, that's the big migratory tarpon. they, you do things a little bit differently. The baby tarpon can be more residential. They can live there all year long. They can be around, they're going to live in, in mangrove type areas. They're going to live under the mangroves. They're going to live, in shallow kind of shallower areas with, with access to a deeper basin or something like that, but a lot of mangrove type areas. And those fish are there year round. And a lot of those fish, you know, what we think is a lot of those fish grow up and become part of this migratory population. But I really think that it's two very different types of fishing. One you can do with a, with a six or an eight weight rod. The other is an 11 or 12 weight rod. And, and there's very different tactics to, to both. The smaller fish, probably if you said you were headed to like Mexico, Belize kind of area, that's what you're going to run into down there for the most part is this mangrove type fishery where the fish stay there year round. Now you can see some big fish there. I mean, there could be a 60 pound fish that kind of still makes it living like right around these areas. And there, so a lot of skipping under the bushes, a lot of, what you might be, what might be more familiar with, like what we're talking about with the streamer fishing, you're trying to get it as close to that bank as you possibly can and strip it away from the bank and the trout, you know, might come up and eat it. Same kind of thing. You're going to get it as close to the mangroves as you possibly can, strip it away and a tarpon might come out there and eat it. Or you see the tarpon swimming along the mangroves and you get it out in front of them and pull it away and they can, they can eat it like that. tarpon like to jump and they got a really hard mouth and, and, and it's difficult to get a hook into them. and a lot of them come off.
Katie
Okay. So when that happens, don't get your feelings hurt. It, it happens to everybody. Tell me about the different rod weights that people use. Is it more for the size of the fish, how hard they fight? Is it related to the flies you're casting? Because when I think of, for example, a bass rod, I've landed bass on like a five or six weight, but people often recommend something like a seven or eight just because you're casting larger flies. And I know Permit, they recommend a higher weight rod than something like a bonefish, but I don't think of Permit as being like these massive fish. Do they just pull really hard? Do you use really heavy flies for them? Like what really determines the weight you're using.
Tom
It's a little bit of both, but I mean, I always think of, first of all, you need to get the fly to the fish. And so you want to use the most effective tool to get the fly to the fish. And if you're fishing with heavier lines or it's windy, you may be able to get an, a, a 10 weight, you know, I think it kind of a 10 weight is, is minimum for permit. Now there's a lot of different permit fisheries. I'm talking about the keys mostly right now. Our, our average size fish, 15 pounds, a big one is going to be 30. so they are, you know, substantially larger than, than any bonefish we're going to catch. I mean, an average permit is going to be bigger than your biggest bonefish ever, right? Like if you caught a 12 pound bonefish, that's a really, really big one. You could easily go out there and catch a 14 or 15 pound permit. It's not even going to raise an eyebrow. That's, that's, that's a very, it's a nice fish. It's a very average size permit. Now you can go down like to, a lot of places in Mexico, a lot of places in the, you know, you can even find them in the Florida Keys. You can find these little bitty permit that aren't any bigger than bonefish and they eat well and permits a permit, like good, good, good on you. But like, that's almost like two different sports where you're fishing for like full grown permit and you're throwing heavy flies and you're doing it typically in the wind. So that's where a 10 weight, even 11 weight can, can be a big advantage because the casting is incredibly accurate. I mean, literally you need to put it in a teacup at, at, at 60 feet. And that's, that's your, that's your strike zone, right? If you're too far out in front, no chance. If you're too far behind them, no chance. You got to put it right in this place and you need to let them see the fly falling to the bottom. Other places are fishing these shrimp flies where they're actually swimming the fly through the, through the water column, maybe you could use a little lighter rod in that situation. But to your question, a lot of it depends on the fly that you're throwing. Now, a lot of the tarpon flies that we throw are tiny, right? For the migratory tarpon, we're throwing tiny flies and, you could easily throw that with an eight weight, but now you're dealing with 125 pound fish. So you, you know, at some point you have to think about, okay, when I hook this fish, can I land it in a reasonable amount of time? so, because, you know, for us, if, if you have a tarpon on for a long time, a hammerhead shark or a bull shark or something else is going to come and eat it. And so you need to fight that. And plus you can kill the fish by fighting it too long. So you want to fight, you want to use a rod that you can get the flight of the fish and you can also fight them, you know, fairly quickly. Now, in the case of like little baby tarpon, you catch a couple on eight weight and you're like, man, these fish are only like four pounds. Wouldn't it be fun to fish a six weight? Sure. Can you throw the fly over there? Sure. Can you, you know, do you have a six weight and can you throw it over there? And would it be a little more fun? Sure. Do it. That sounds, that sounds awesome. But if it's a fish that's so big that, you know, a six weight is, is, is a joke. if you can't, even if you can throw the fly over there you need a little little more so typically typically you know a lot of people are fishing you know there's some really good six weights and seven weights now but a bonefish rod typically an eight weight you know for most most destinations I've got some seven weights that I really like and I actually think that sometimes when you go to a seven weight or a six weight you're fishing with thinner your fly line is much thinner so in really high wind situations you can actually, sometimes get through the wind better with a, with a seven weight line than you could a nine weight line. And I don't know, it's pretty advanced casting and this real nuances, but basically an eight weight, your bonefish rod, a 10 weight, your permit rod and 11 weight or more bigger is your tarpon rod. Unless you're looking for a little, little smaller, you know, tarpon, like we were talking about.
Katie
So there's two last, things I wanted to ask you about, cause I don't want to take too much of your time. one is, like what else, what else might we expect to encounter down there? Cause I'm not like a species snob. I'd like to, you know, try for all of these, the, the three we've been talking about, but at the end of the day, I like catching lots of different fish and seeing what's out there and seeing how they behave. So if I, if I hook some, what other people might call bycatch, I'm going to be thrilled. So what else might, might you catch and what do they do?
Tom
Um, one of the, one of the most fun fish that you can, you can ever catch. and it's funny because, on the, you know, around the United States and Mexico and the Caribbean, if you catch a Jack crevalle, people kind of look down on it. But if you go to Christmas Island and you catch a, a Trevally, it's the greatest thing that could ever happen to you. And the Jack crevalle could be bigger than the Trevally you catch. And it's super celebrated over there. And it's not so much over here. All the Jack family are awesome. Permit or jacks, look downs, blue runners, Jack crevalle, horse-eyed jacks, all of those fish are awesome, awesome, awesome fish. They're fantastic. I love them. And it bothers me that they're considered trash fish because for a fishing guide, a Jack crevalle and a horse-eyed jack and a blue runner, that can save the day more often than not. And, you know, people go out there and it's still going to be the hardest fighting fish you've ever, if all you've ever done is trout fish, you catch a four pound Jack crevalle, it's going to fight more than any trout you've ever caught in your life. And they're, they're amazing. And I throw at them a lot, and actually will fish for them a lot. But what happens a lot of times, and the reason why they get a bad rap is because you're out there bone fishing and you see a Jack crevalle and on the back of a ray or something. and you're like, well, should I throw at that? And you decide to throw at it. And then here comes your school of bonefish that you've been waiting for all day. And you're hooked up to a Jack crevalle. Okay, you just got to know that that's probably going to happen, right? So if what you went there for, and you're going to say, this trip is a success if I catch a bonefish and I'm going to be really disappointed if I don't, then you need to be really disciplined about what you fish for until you feel like you've caught enough bonefish, right? but I'm for I'm like you I like catching them all right so if I see a jack crevalle I'm gonna throw at it I mean why not especially if you never caught any of them yeah so you could catch any of the species of the jack family there's mutton snappers and gray snappers on the flats quite a bit lane snappers schoolmaster snappers a whole host of of snappers you could even you can even see a yellowtail snapper sometimes they get in really shallow water they could be right off the right off the flat. Typically there are deeper water fish and another deep water fish that, actually is quite celebrated is a mutton snapper and a mutton snapper has, they're, they're beautiful. They have bright red tails and they, they come up and they follow rays in a lot of different, locations and they are tricky. They're tricky to catch and the guides love to eat them. And so they are very celebrated, as a, as a trophy fish. So Jack Revell, not so much mutton snapper. Awesome. You know, I don't go figure. I like both of them, but, mutton snapper is that's a, that's a really great, that's a really great fish. in certain locations, you can see snook, typically down in the, in the, places you're going. I don't think that you would encounter redfish, but in the Florida keys and, and all over Florida, redfish is a, is a wonderful flat species that does everything that a bonefish does except fight as hard as they do, but they tail, they wake, they, they push. They are, less, in most cases, they're, they're less picky, a little more forgiving than a bonefish. And, so the redfish is a great one. One of the things that you might catch down there, bonnet sharks, bonnet sharks, are also frowned upon by some people for some reason, but that I don't understand because a bonnet shark wants to eat the fly and they fight almost as hard as a bonefish and you can see them. And sometimes you get in an area where there's a ton of them. And I would take people to places like this, that they were struggling to see a bonefish. They were struggling to catch a bonefish and, you could get them to catch two or three bonnet sharks. And now they know how to cast to a fish, hook a fish, clear the line, land a fish, and their confidence would soar. And the next thing you know, they're catching every bonefish you show them, right? As opposed to before, their knees were knocking. They were so scared of the bonefish. They didn't know what to expect. So, you know, bonnet sharks, little baby lemon sharks, all these little sharks that are up in the shallows. They're fun to catch. And then barracuda is another thing that you'll encounter. And barracudas can be caught on fly, certainly, and people catch a lot of them. But they can also be tough to catch on fly. And sometimes people will carry a spinning rod with them in the boat because what a barracuda likes is a fast-moving lure. So you'll use these tube lures or these other kind of lures, like a floater-diver type of lure with a bill broken off. And you can throw that out if it's slow or you actually see a cuda, you can throw that out in front of them and reel it real fast. And to watch a barracuda eat a lure that you're literally reeling it as fast as you possibly can is awesome. It is so fun. And then you can also use that, like if the fish is slow or the tide's slack and you're not seeing anything for another 30 minutes, you know you're not going to see anything for another 30 minutes. you can cast that cuda lure out on a spinning rod and you can catch a couple cudas that are they're awesome and usually down in those areas the guides like to eat the barracudas too so they're happy for you to do it okay but I like the I like the cuda a lot but that's that's pretty much what you're going to expect down there
Katie
I don’t know if I’m leaving anything out but that's pretty much the what's on the flat you know and if you're planning to target barracuda or any of these shark species, do you need to kind of prepare for that by putting a wire leader on?
Tom
Yeah, for sure. They, they will snip you right off. you might be able to land a bonnet shark with, with mono, but if they, you know, if you hook them just right, but the cuda, the cuda is just going to snip you off. So having a little wire that you can take with you or, because typically, you know, a lot of the guides won't have it. but if you're interested in Barracuda, you know, you can take, you can take some wire with you. sometimes like somebody like Orvis or something will have like, some pre-tied little eight inch little, leaders that are pretty easy to, easy to use, or you just get a, if you can tie a haywire twist, which is a really, it's not even a knot. It's just, you're basically just twisting the wire. and you could learn that in 10 minutes on a YouTube video. You just take one spool of wire down there with you and you have everything you need.
Katie
The last thing I wanted to ask you about is what differences should I expect between being on a skiff and being just waiting in the flats? Because it sounds like we're going to go out in the boat each afternoon and then in the evenings or in the mornings or whenever we've got some extra time, we can just go wait off our own flat whenever we want. And so we're hoping to kind of get some insight from the guides and then in our free time, go try those things out on our own mess up without the guides' attention. So how many differences are there between being in a boat and being on our own apart from you probably have a better visual of the fish when you're higher up and there's a guide with you, any other differences that I should know about?
Tom
that's a very good point that you will be able to see much further away in a boat than when you're wading. you know you you cut that distance much you know considerably but you can also get much much closer to a fish waiting without them feeling you or hearing you than you can in a boat. So it's about one-to-one. And if the fish are tailing, like if you get in situations where you're in very shallow water, you can see a tailing fish from a boat, just like you'd see one in the water. Like it's out there at 150 feet. You can see it from a long way away. And you can, it's actually in that situation, you're better off wading. You can get closer to the fish and you're on your own terms. You're moving as fast as or slow as you want. And you're really quiet. So wading, I love wading and wading is, is fantastic. And a lot of times, even when we're in a fancy skiff, you know, we'll get out and wade to the, to the fish, because you can just get closer or you just know that they're getting shallower and shallower and you can get up there. You wade wherever, right? The boat might get stuck or, you know, hit the bottom or whatever. so wading is awesome, but what you, might not be prepared for is the the way the line is in the water and the resistance that you have from the water. Like say you're going to cast 50 feet and you've got a bunch of line in the water, just at your feet, you have to generate enough line speed to where it's going to pull that water, you know, pull that line out of the water and trout fishermen that weighed a lot, you know, encounter that. but the same thing that happens in a trout stream, like if you had just a whole bunch of line off your reel and it's in the, it's in the water and the current pushes it downstream, the same thing's going to happen, flats fishing, like it's going to be way out there. So the trick is, you know, to have enough, but not too much, like too much gets, it gets caught around stuff. And, and, and that's situational. Like if you're walking through a bunch of mangrove shoots, you can't have much line out because it's getting caught on everything. And if you're in an open spot, you know, you can have a lot more line out, but sometimes, you know, like if it's all strung out behind you, you can take it and pull it up. So it's right here under your feet and it makes it a little easier to cast instead of actually having to pull it from down downstream. And there is current on the flat, you know, you'll, there, there is current like a river, but the biggest, the biggest changes are things that you already knew. Like you're going to be able to see them further from a boat and, and you know, there's, there's some challenges waiting. And sometimes the waiting is soft, you know, like you got to make sure that the bottom is something that will support you because you can sync up to your waist in that stuff. And, and that's not where you want to wait, you know, find a, find a nice hard flat. Like there's nothing better than like walking on a white sand bonefish flat, barefooted and going after a, a, a tailing bonefish. It's like one of the greatest things in all of fishing. So hopefully you you'll encounter some flats like that and not the ones where you sink up to your waist.
Katie
And what kind of footwear do you recommend? You just mentioned barefoot for a bonefish flat, but you know, if I've got wading boots and the little like wading socks that I used to wet wade in the, in the summertime, like, is that what I should be taking down there? Or what kind of footwear would you recommend?
Tom
Depending on where you're going. I mean, if you're going to, I haven't fished Belize, fished Mexico, you know, a few times. And typically the bottom is very similar to what we have in the Florida Keys. You're going to have some mostly sandy bottom, marl bottom, kind of some soft, some coral interspersed there. It's not like super tough on footwear, but like if you go to another place like Christmas Island and you want some serious footwear there because you're walking over this iron shore rock and this really basically razor sharp stuff. And by the end of the week, a regular lightweight pair of boots is going to be shredded, right? Or a pair, like the last time I went there, I got these hiking boots and, you know, they were, they were like hiking boots. That's what I went in. Right. And, and because most of the, most of the, the, the wading shoes that you see for flats fishing, like fishing in Belize and Mexico and the Florida Keys, they're too heavy, but they're not they're not durable enough for like what I encountered in Christmas Island of walking all day long on this rough bottom so I just went with a pair of hiking hiking boots so typically most of the shoes that I see are are too heavy where if you just had like a lightweight pair of of dive booties like you you know like they'll have like a kind of a semi-hard bottom but people wear them when they're wearing flippers yeah they're just a dream boot with some with with you know, a sole on them, that'd be fine. Or even just an old pair of tennis shoes. I mean, you're fine with that. I mean, if I don't have to, I try not to get fancy at all. I just throw a couple of, throw a whole pair of tennis shoes in there and you're good to go. You know, Crocs, you know, can happen. But, you know, if you get in places where it's soft, you know, you go down and your shoe comes off, you don't find it again. So you want to, you know, it just depends on what, what kind of, habitat you're in and how far you're walking and all that stuff. But typically what you, what you described should be fine.
Katie
Sure. Great. Well, Tom, where can people find, your podcast, your TV show, anything else you've got going on? I know you're, you're the founder of Waypoint, which is a network I'm on. So where can people find you and all the other content associated with you?
Tom
Um, well, Waypoint, Waypoint is the, is the best place to find everything. You can find the salt water experience into the blue in life on the water. All those shows are on waypoint. the waypoint outdoor collective, that's where the podcast lives, but it, it gets uploaded there and goes to every podcast platform. You can go to Tom roll and podcast.com and find, I think we're on like almost 800 episodes now. So there's, there's all kinds of episodes there as you can look back on all kinds of cool fishing guides and people that I've talked to. That's, that's fun. And, 18 seasons of the salt water experience. on on waypoint we're also on discovery channel and I don't know that's it we got all the social medias and websites associated with it and everything but those are the those are the main ones
Katie
perfect well I had so much fun talking to you you got me really excited for this and made it feel a little less daunting
Tom
oh you're gonna have a good time there's no reason to be intimidated by saltwater fishing just you know the more the more work you put in beforehand the more rewards you're going to get when you get there.
Katie
Got it. Well, I got to go out and get in the snow then, I guess, and start practicing my cast. Maybe I'll dig a pit in the snow to aim for.
Tom
There you go. All right. Good luck. Thank you, Tom. I'll talk to you later.
Katie
Okay. Thanks. All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at Fish Untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.

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Katie Kusold

Ep 102: Saltwater 101, with Tom Rowland

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Ep 102: Saltwater 101, with Tom Rowland

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Ep 103: A Life of Fly Fishing Travel, with Matt Podobinski

Ep 101: The People, Places, and Things that Go Into Fishing, with Matthew Lourdeau

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