Ep 101: The People, Places, and Things that Go Into Fishing, with Matthew Lourdeau
Matthew Lourdeau runs the Casting Across blog and podcast. I love the topics Matthew covers, which often include finding ways to connect more deeply with the things we enjoy doing. In this episode, we talk about how he got his start in the industry, how he transitioned to running Casting Across, ways to find out more about your local fly fishing history, and how to get “deeper” into the rich culture of fly fishing.
Website: castingacross.com
Casting Across Fly Fishing Podcast
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Twitter: @castingacross
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 101 with Matthew Lourdeau on the people, places, and things that go into fishing. Well, I like to start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into fishing. So I'd love to hear how you got your start in fishing and specifically in fly fishing.
Matthew
All right, Katie. I, you know, for me, it started when I was a teenager, I had been fishing for a few years, conventional gear. Uh, I had some, I'd moved from the Midwest out to the mid Atlantic into Virginia. And some of my very first friends that I made in Northern Virginia, uh, fished and just, we would fish with conventional spinning gear and we would go hit all of the subdivision ponds in these, this sprawl that had, uh, come into play outside of Washington, DC. And, uh, once we started driving around, we discover that there's all these rivers and lakes and streams that were in the immediate area that had trout in them. And the interesting thing about a lot of these streams was that they were catching at least fly fishing only. And so we realized if we wanted to fish here, then we had to adapt and we had to get into fly fishing. And so, uh, it started off with a really bottom level bargain bin, uh, rods, reels, and cheap flies from a sports authority from a big box store. And we just kind of started learning ourselves. And so we would go out and we would watch people. We would talk to people. Uh, I had a one friend in particular who was not afraid to go up and have conversations with other people on the stream. And so we, we really learned from being on the water and having older folks, uh, you know, whether they would be five years older than us or 50 years old and us invest in us at that young age. And so that was really how it got its start. Um, but it kind of a corollary to that was when I was, I believe a 17, uh, I, uh, signed up to go to the Pennsylvania's rivers, conservation, fly fishing youth camp, and that was, uh, like a, like a four year degree crammed into one week. Not just for fly fishing, but also for conservation. And so that, uh, that week at that trial limited camp, that was the very first trial limited camp in the, in the country. Um, that, that really cemented the holistic, uh, nature of fly fishing for me. It was the fly fishing, it was the conservation. It was also the camaraderie and the history, uh, that goes into the sport. So that is in a nutshell, how, how I got into fly fishing.
Katie
I think your description there really fits with your show. And I know we'll get into like the podcast and everything, but, um, I think of your show as one of the, you use the word holistic. I think that's a good word for it. where you talk about a lot more than just catching fish or the species themselves. It's a lot more about kind of the ethos of fly fishing. And there are episodes that are more, you know, how to, like how to clean your gear or things like this or reasons you should, you know, travel more or whatever. But there's definitely an air of just thinking about why we do it and the importance of, like, everything that goes into it beyond just pulling a fish out of the water. What about that really, like, resonated with you?
Matthew
Well, I mean, honestly, you know, we, we choose to do what we do in the most difficult, complicated and expensive way possible. Um, you know, if you, if you went to Bass Pro Shop, you could get a spinning rod and reel and you could get a bobber, um, some lead sinkers and a couple little snelled hooks and a tub of worms. And you could out fish, uh, anybody with a fly rod. Um, I'm, I'm convinced of it. I've no, I have no, no qualms admitting that. Um, but there is something special about, about fishing with, with fly tackle. And it, it, it extends beyond the aesthetics of the gear and the, um, the physics of using a fly rod and even the artistry of, of, of designing and, uh, choosing flies, all of those things matter and all of those things are important. But one of the things that's great about fly fishing, and I think this is types of fishing and most other outdoor pursuits, I would say is that we have this rich literary history and we have a very rich artistic history that's tied to it both here in the United States and then of course going back to Europe and so it's something that you can tap into and really be a part of a community that extends beyond your time limited chapter. Maybe the guys that go to your fly shop, the people that you see on the stream, but it extends back centuries and you are, you're tethering yourself to something that, and, and someone that has been doing this for, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years in a particular way. And so it goes beyond the, uh, the numbers game of how many fish you catch, how big of a fish you catch, and you say, you know, I'm using a fly that was developed maybe 150 years ago, uh, in New York, uh, maybe 300 years ago in England, uh, or, or even more ancient to that, you know, something that was, uh, stylized off something from Mesopotamia from a millennia ago. Um, and so all of those things, um, I think feed into being on the water. And I think a lot of people enjoy that whether they know it or not. And so the, the podcast I like to think of as kind of like gateway into my writing, which is always in, in what I state, it's a gateway into more writing. There's lots of links. There's lots of book reviews. Um, I want people taking my 20 minutes of talking my 500 words of writing and then spending it diving into a novel from maybe 10 years ago, or maybe from the early part of the 20th century.
Katie
Now, why do you think fly fishing lends itself more toward having that lengthy literary history? I feel like ocean fishing has a little bit, you think of Ernest Hemingway and stuff like that. Fly fishing and ocean sailor against the sea kind of writing, I feel like exist in a great part, but you don't hear a lot of literature about like big bass tournament in Florida. You know, that just doesn't exist. So like, why do you think these two genres really like took off while conventional freshwater fishing just does not have that same following, literally? Right.
Matthew
Right. So in my humble opinion, I would say that it has to do with the contemplative nature of it. There's a slowness to it. There's a pacing of it. And don't get me wrong. I fish conventional gear still, I'm really bad at fishing out of a kayak, but the fly rod, so anytime you see a picture of me in a boat online, uh, with a fish, I probably caught it using spinning gear. So I have no problems with that. But, um, I, I think that both like when you're out in the ocean, it's you and a small vessel, uh, whether you are in a skiff or whether you are in a tuna boat, Uh, you know, it's you in that against really, like you said, against the ocean, which is something that you can't mess with. There's no way that you're going to win in a, you versus the ocean situation. And so I think that in, in that. Component looking at it in that respect, it's the smallness of, of, of us versus the grandeur of nature. And I would say it's the same thing in fly fishing where, uh, you've chosen to do this in a less efficient, but maybe more, um, tangible way. There's a greater connection with a fly rod and a fly line down to a delicate leader, to a fly where you're saying I've chosen to engage with my pursuit, with my quarry in a way that is a little bit more complicated, but also a little bit more intimate. And so in, in doing so you're having to think through that. Why am I choosing to do it this way? Why am I choosing to do it in a way that maybe it's more expensive? Maybe it is a way that's more complicated. Uh, maybe in a way that's going to require more effort to yield less results. And you're having to think through all those things. And as you think through that, people like to say, you know, how can I communicate this to somebody else? Because I like my thoughts about it, whether it be on the trout stream or out on blue water. Um, and, and how can I communicate this to people who are going through this also, or maybe people who are interested in this, and so I think that's probably the impetus for why those two forms of sport have really lent themselves to a deeper aesthetic, particularly in a literary sense.
Katie
Do you have any favorite fly fishing books that you would recommend to people? It seems like you probably have a long history of reading this stuff because you talk about it a lot. But if you could pick, I don't know, two or three books to recommend, what would you choose?
Matthew
Yeah, so I'm a big fan of the kind of the literature that came out of South Central Pennsylvania, um, in the middle of the 20th century. So Charlie Fox, Vince Marinero, and even, uh, uh, Ed Shank, uh, uh, Ed Coke. Uh, those, those four guys, um, I would say kind of were the foundation for my, my reading for fly fishing. This is a place where I grew up fishing after I got driver's license. As you go, it will go from Northern Virginia, South Central Pennsylvania, fish on those spring creeks, Latort, big spring, yellow breaches, falling springs, and all the little mountain creeks around there. And, uh, you, you have a great, uh, setting, uh, in the sense that these parts of this part of the world is, is not super rural, um, it's there's, it's on towns, uh, the, the streams flow through villages, uh, you're encountering all sorts of people in all sorts of, uh, circumstances. But at the same time, there's just spectacular fishing because these rivers are so, uh, so ecologically diverse and so rich also. So they have, uh, the, the, the basis to feed and grow large trout and you had spectacular hatches. They're not what they used to be, but this is what these guys, you know, came into. And so you have say like Marineros, modern dry flied code, um, or foxes, uh, fishing the dry fly. And in these books you have, it's certainly not revolutionary, but you had codified in a very organized way, um, a, uh, how to fish dry flies, how to tie flies in certain ways to, uh, approach different circumstances, not just hatch wise, but also conditions. And so you had this very scientific, um, aspect of, of fly tying and fly selection, But it was melded with stories about fishing in these places with, uh, that, that are intimate locations, um, that have culture and community around them. Um, but, but it, and then it cycles back into how do you catch fish? And so it really touches on that dualistic nature of fly fishing. So, um, books that come out of that tradition have always been my favorite. One that I would really recommend if anybody is interested in kind of that, that area is called limestone legends. Um, and that is a book that was put out, I think probably in the late nineties by the fly fishers club of Harrisburg, uh, which is a small group. It's still going on. Uh, but the who's who of mid Atlantic fly fishing, I mean, it, all the men I mentioned earlier, along with many other, all of the Penn state fly fishing, greats, lefty Cray, all those guys, uh, were part of this. may have essays about science, about technique, about conservation, about fly fishing, and just about the joy of being on the water in this, uh, pretty thick paperback volume. I'm not sure if it's still in print, but you can certainly find it, uh, online and I've seen it in plenty of used bookstores, but it's a, if you are not familiar with the South central Pennsylvania, mid-Atlantic fly fishing culture and tradition, or if you're, you just really haven't read a lot, this is a great entry point limestone legend. So I would definitely encourage people to check that book out.
Katie
I know on your show, you've talked about going to I think you've mentioned going to your local library and really getting to know your local fly fishing scene. And I'd love to hear more about that, because I've never heard anyone else talk about this. But I really like your personal connection to where you fly fish, not just fly fishing in general. Because we all know everyone can grab a parachute at 'em and go catch a trout basically anywhere in the country. But there's something really special, I think about connecting with your local area in whatever hobby you pursue, be it fly fishing or skiing or anything else, and getting to know who came from your area and what happened in your area and what was developed there. So I'd love to hear your thoughts about finding out more about your local scene and not just what's going on now, but how has fly fishing evolved in your local area?
Matthew
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the first thing, like you said, is go to the library. we have so many resources online that sometimes we lose, lose sight of the fact that, uh, there are some great resources that you can physically go and tangibly touch. And one of the reasons I like that is because there's some things that are done at a very small scale. So. A great example is I have found, you know, small paperbacks, uh, things that are, you know, staple bound or they are, um, ring bound or something like that, that a local, uh, angler group put together, um, fly patterns or how to fish local streams. And you might look at that and say, Oh, that was written, you know, maybe 40 years ago, there, everything's changed. The environment's changed. The fisheries have changed. The management has changed, but there's still information in there. And one of the great things about, about, uh, um, when you do that is that sometimes you'll find resources within those, you know, embedded in those, uh, those booklets and things like that. And then you can go on this rabbit trail because, you know, people in certain parts of the country, and I'm thinking New England, New England, for example, where I live, where you have this great sporting tradition in a state like Maine. And so 75 years ago, there were, there was fly fishing writing, but it was sporting writing. And so if you see something referenced in some, something that's obscure, some sort of little track date that you find in your local library or even in a, um, you know, a local history museum. Now you can go back to this more voluminous book that was on the sporting tradition that was referenced there, and you have a resource that you would probably never come across if you were just looking for, you know, fly fishing in Maine and the early part of the 20th century. And so I think that's a, that's a great, a great way to start. And then two, there's so much now that is on the, in public domain, uh, that, you know, you're not, no one's going to publish because it's relatively obscure, but you find really interesting things about local stories. And then, uh, you, you're able to find just how, how streams and how rivers and how fly fishing communities have evolved. So for me, the first step for that is always walking into the library, um, and nosing through the stacks. Don't just go to the fly fishing section. That's, you know, crammed in between ocean fishing and upland hunting. you know, look in a broader sense and you'll find a lot of things that can lead you down some really cool rabbit trails.
Katie
So where do you go if you aren't heading straight for the fly fishing section? Where do these things like to hide in the library?
Matthew
So the local history is huge. So finding a local history section and getting into that is really important because you might find something that was self-published. You might find something that a local, um, conservation department, uh, did or a local, uh, just some sort of environmental regulation, you know, program put out, uh, personally, I found a couple of trout streams near me. That was in a, uh, a booklet that was put out by a County environmental protection organization in the early two thousands, and I haven't seen reference to these two streams in any fly fishing book, uh, in that I've come across for, for the state of Massachusetts or for New England. And so, you know, am I catching giant, you know, 20 inch brook trout that no one else knows about? No, but I'm, there's, there's, there's brook trout there and I'm able to get into them close to home. And it was fun to go through that process that, you know, before I even stepped on the stream, I had to do the due diligence of figuring out access, figuring out where to go, uh, figuring out if this was even a viable place to fish, and seeing what pieces I could put together from the clues that are in these resources.
Katie
Now, have you found the, like when you read these, I know you've mentioned that the environment has likely changed, like lots of things have changed, so they're not necessarily as relevant to catching fish as something, like going to your local fly shop, for example. When you read them, do you pick up a lot of nuggets that do help you catch more fish, Or is it much more about just kind of connecting with the history and feeling like you're more part of this place? And it's less about what you're actually gaining in knowledge and more about just like connecting with that.
Matthew
I'd say it I would say 90% is local history and lore and just fun little historical information. But the 10% that does yield results is really exciting because for all of us, particularly know, know a stream. Well, once you uncover something, once you unlock something, once you, you know, you go, you always go right, but you decide to go left and you discover something cool, uh, that that's always, uh, it magnifies that, that 10%. So a great example was, um, reading a book about how there was off of a spring creek creek that I used to fish quite a bit, um, that there was a, another. branch to it, that there was like a, like a, a feeder Creek to the stream. And I'd never seen it before. Uh, I'd fish it countless times. I knew exactly what I was talking about. And so I picked up an old map that was not from the, you know, contemporary, uh, days it was from, you know, 55 years ago. And I'm looking at the map and I'm saying, yeah, there's a Creek on this map. There's no Creek on my contemporary map. So we went back to the stream and lo and behold, there's just a culvert that had been, then it been put in and that was feeding the feeder Creek into the main branch of the stream. And you follow kind of the topography and the stream reappeared and it was just super overgrown and super dense, but there was fish in it. And so again, I'm not catching 20 inch fish, but I'm catching fish that, that. I'm sure somebody else knows that they're there, but for me, I discovered it through this, you know, just paying attention to those little details. So that 10% of actually like yielding results is a really exciting 10%.
Katie
Yeah, no, I could totally see that. I really like that kind of explorative aspect of fishing. I like to do a lot of stuff in the back country and it's the same thing. It's hard to convince yourself that really no one knows that these fish are here. These fish have never seen a fly, but you can kind of convince yourself for the time being that this is the first time anyone's ever been to this spot. No one knows about it. And it feels kind of like a secret hidden gem that you came across just from wandering around and trying things out.
Matthew
Right, and like you said, in the back country, I mean, whether it be out West or up here in the Appalachians, we sometimes lose sight of the fact that not a lot of people do what we do. If you fish on big crowded streams, it's the last thing that you have in your mind, but with a little bit of legwork and a little bit of research, I truly believe you can get into fish that haven't seen a fly this season, maybe they haven't seen a fly in a couple of seasons. Doesn't mean there's not predation going on, doesn't mean that there's not people around, but you're going to have exposure to some fish that might not have had exposure to people. And so, yeah, there's certainly hidden stuff out there that we can uncover with just a little bit of legwork.
Katie
Now, I don't know if you'll know this Because you are in a part of the country that has a very rich sporting history. I feel like New England just, you know, that's what I think of when I think of sporting history in fly fishing specifically. But do you happen to know if the rest of the country would have kind of a similar setup at their local libraries? Like, do you think most places would have that maybe in less quantity than New England? Like I guess I don't know what everyone's local history is with fly fishing. It's hard to tell, you know, how abundant that resource would be.
Matthew
Right. So yeah, you're definitely going to get a whole lot more in places like the Catskills, South Central Pennsylvania and New England. That's where it's going to be the richest and the deepest because, um, you know, that that was where we've been here the longest, but as you move West, you get this really cool opportunity and it's that some of the most, um, you know, notable, uh, fly shops, uh, they are one owner removed. when they were founded or the original owner might be there. Uh, you know, still. And so what you have is you're probably not going to find something in the library. Uh, although you might, because a lot of these guys, uh, and some of the women that were involved when they were trying to make ends meet, they were writing articles for their local newspaper. There's the small town newspaper, um, would publish them on a weekly or monthly basis. And so, man, I can't, I can't remember the last time I did this, but you know, You go into the library and you look at those old microfiche and things like that. Um, but you can probably find some just amazing writing from guys who, um, maybe only published one or two books, but they had a weekly or monthly column. And you know, the way you find out about this is you go ask them cause they're still alive or you ask their, their, you know, somebody who's working at the fly shop that they found it because you know, they knew them and they spent a lot of time with them. So it might not necessarily be a book. Uh, but it might be resources that are still there that some tiny podunk Wyoming, uh, you know, uh, library has in, in, in, has access to. Um, so it's going to be different. It's not going to be these beautiful, uh, illustrated full color plates of finally tied Catskill flies embedded in these finally set, um, you know, pages of, of descriptions and this, uh, cloth bound book, it's going to be scrolling through either these computerized, digitized newspapers or even flipping through physical copies of old newspapers. But I know those exist and they're worth looking into.
Katie
Do you do this as, like when you travel around the country do you like to pop into different towns and learn their local histories, even if it's not your own?
Matthew
Yeah, absolutely. I actually, that was one of the things that was in my mind is the last time I was in Illinois, where I'm originally from, I spent the first 10 years of my life there. Um, and I did a couple of articles of like, what if I would have stayed here? And so I went and talked to the local fly shop and I went to the local trout streams and very different than what I'm used to, but one of the other things I did too, is I went to the library and. Just, uh, I, I like books. I like reading in general. And so fly fishing being a significant part of my life. I mean, that's always something I'm going to peek in and look at. And. You know, there's a lot of the, the normal stuff you're going to find in every bookstore in every library, but. You know, I was able to find a couple of those smaller locally published things. You know, they were, um, records or, or articles and essays from local trout and limited conservation chapters. And it doesn't seem super exciting on the surface, but once you dive into it, like, like you said, you know, you're, you're able to get some history, but also interesting nuggets about this was okay, the first trout stream in this urban area that was that was stocks. And these are the victories, these are the failures. And then you start to wonder, like, okay, in the feeder creeks where the spring seeps are, might there still be remnant populations of trout and your brain starts going and it worst case scenario, you go and you look at a pretty place and you do a little bit of digging and maybe you catch a sunfish, but maybe you get a trout. So yeah, you know, it's Yeah, the last time I was out in the Chicago area, I definitely spent some time doing that.
Katie
Cool. Well, I want to switch gears a little bit and kind of talk about your show. I know that you had mentioned beforehand that you got started in the quote unquote industry. And I'm curious to hear how how that started and then you know how you transition from that to where you are now and doing your show.
Matthew
Yeah. So that's a it's a great question. And the short version of it is, once I was in college, I needed money. And so I thought If I could make money doing different things, why not make money doing what I want to do? And so I started working at an Orvis store and this was back before there, they were proliferated across the country. So this is back in the late nineties where there's probably only like six or eight or 10 of them. And, uh, I worked in an Orvis store in Northern Virginia and it was. The best thing about it. I mean, the discount was nice and all, but the, the best thing about it was interacting with people. And for me, that was like the most exciting thing, knowing that I was going to be, you know, putting together dog beds and knowing that I was going to be folding women's sweaters and knowing that I was going to be, you know, doing all the other things made it worth it because I had had these conversations with people who were just wanting to spend time in a fly shop. There weren't a ton in the area at the time. And so that was like my foot in the door. Um, and through that, I had a couple of contacts with people that once I moved to South Carolina, uh, after, after, uh, leaving home, I was able to do some work with a small rod company doing casting instruction and doing, uh, selling, selling fly rods, uh, doing some very kind of part-time guiding both in the Carolinas and up into Virginia and Maryland, and then I moved up to Pennsylvania for grad school. And at that point in time, I got a real job in social work and. I was still trying to find a way to get plugged in and I was fishing one day on a stream and I realized there was like 30 kids fishing upstream from, from me. And I kind of put two and two together and it was that Pennsylvania rivers conservation and fly fishing youth camp that I had attended when I was 17. And so I walked up and started talking to one of the guys and asked if some of the people who ran the camp when I attended about 10 years prior were still there. And lo and behold, they were, and they needed help. And so I started as just kind of being a gopher. And then I started doing the treasury work. And within a few years, I was one of the directors of the camp. And so that was cool because similar to when I was working at the fly shop, um, I was in contact with people who were local guides because they would come in and be Gillies, they would be guides for the students for free for the week. I was in contact with some of the most prominent. Angling and conservation voices, not just in the East coast, but countrywide because they would come in. And this was at a time when there wasn't trying to limited camps across the country. And so every, if people wanted to be involved in this, they would come out to Pennsylvania or a couple of other camps that existed. And so I was having conversations with these people throughout the course of the year. Similarly, we had people who wanted to give back from a lot of the major fly fishing brands. And so, uh, these were folks that I got to have, you know, regular communication with, and so for me, this was really exciting because, you know, it, it did that holistic thing where, okay, you have somebody who makes fly rods, but they call me up because they want to give back to, uh, youth education. And so we talk about fly rods, but we also talk about the ethos of these companies and wanting to give back, you know, it's not all about profit. Again, there's much more profitable things to do in this, this world for anybody who, you know, turns their nose up at fly fishing companies, cause I think it's all about the almighty dollar doesn't stop to realize that if these people are talented and gifted and they know marketing and they know sales and they know all of those things, then they'd be doing something else, but there's a level of passion and a level of, of investment when it comes to fly fishing. And so I was involved in, in all of those spheres within the camp. And then I felt the call to ministry and moved away from Pennsylvania, up here to new England and I just kind of had to devote myself very fully to my job. And then within a year, started having children and realized, you know, aside from going to try unlimited meetings every once in a while, I just, I didn't have the bandwidth to travel, uh, because I didn't live in like a fly fishing hotspot, like I had when I was in Virginia and Pennsylvania, and that made me think, okay, um, how can I stay involved? Cause this is a community I really enjoy. This is a culture that I really have come to embrace. And I thought, you know what? I wanna write because within ministry, you're limited by what you want, you can say. The source material has to speak for itself. The more of me, the worse the product is going to be. The worse the sermon, the teaching, all this sort of stuff. That's not what I want. And so I thought, okay, how can I use a lot more creative juices? And I thought, okay, well, fly fishing writing. And so that's where casting across kind of came from. And it's been boil. I think this is year eight of casting across and started off with just writing. So, uh, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, uh, always writing an article. And like you mentioned earlier, sometimes it was how to stuff. Um, but more often than not, it was, uh, about the pursuit of the fish. It was about the people. It was about the places. It's about the thing. So it was gear reviews, but not like this is, this is why this piece of gear is good. It was, this was the mindset behind this piece of gear. This is why this person developed it. This is, this is what went into them wanting to create something so that you could use it. Um, so all of those things kind of went into casting across and I wrote about podcasts early on. In fact, I would say that writing about podcasts was one of the biggest shots in the arm to casting across because, um, this was going back. You know, six or seven years now. And I wrote a couple of articles about podcasts, talked to some of the, the in time and that really got some exposure for to the website. And I, of course, I got asked, well, why don't you do a podcast? Cause I want, I like kind of showcasing other people. I, that's not really what I want to do. But then as the years went on, I had this huge back catalog of writing that I had done and I didn't want to just repost it. So I thought, you know, what would be a fun thing to do? Uh, Fridays on the podcast and the website had become basically just like, uh, links to other things like news items about fly fishing, conservation, new pieces of gear, just send people that way. I thought, okay, I can, I can get rid of that. And I can add a podcast that basically revisits old content. Um, and it lets me riff on it. You know, my, I can try to not say I'm a whole bunch and try to kind of sort of be eloquent and all that. And, and that's what the, where the podcast came from and just giving me an opportunity, like you said before, I don't do interviews, not out of any sort of, um, you know, like, uh, ethical, uh, or, or reason like that. It's just, there's so many great interview and discussion-based podcasts out there. I'm not opposed to it. I've kind of have some ideas for maybe what might happen in the future, but I like to just do a short form 20 minutes while you're folding laundry, while you're driving to work, you can knock it out. And with the intention of sending you both to casting across the website and then other resources that people can dive into. So one of the things I like to say is I try to bring the perspective of one foot in the fly fishing industry, one foot, just the consumer. And the awesome thing about that, if anyone ever goes to trade shows, is that that line is so blurred and which is awesome is that most of the folks that are selling you stuff are using stuff. Most of the stuff, people that are promoting items are turning around, talking to other people who are promoting items because they're just as interested in the guy in the booth next door as you are in them. So, um, it's, it's a really great culture and community. And I kind of try to help people take that pathway into seeing all those aspects.
Katie
Yeah, I like that your show is solo because I don't know if there's any other fly fishing podcast that I listen to that is. And it is kind of like a bite-sized nugget. Like you come in, you get your information as much as, you know, I obviously like the interviews because that's what I do. There's a lot of, I don't want to say filler, but kind of some banter at the beginning, banter at the end. You know, you sometimes go off on tangents and I like that part. But it ends up being 45 minute to an hour long episodes and if people don't have time to listen to that then you know they might want to grab a couple of the nuggets from the middle but they don't want to listen to the whole thing to get there. Whereas yours are usually about 20 minutes long you can you can quickly knock one out while you're you know cleaning up the kitchen after dinner or something. And I wanted to ask like how do you how do you go about writing these because I'm impressed that you keep up with the amount of writing and podcasting that you do. Especially because it seems like you need to kind of prepare a lot more in advance for your podcast because you have to, I assume you have at least some sort of script, maybe not written down word for word, but you've got something that you've got to follow versus just coming up with stuff off the top of your head. So what's that process look like for you?
Matthew
That's a really good question. And for me, I, so I'm in the constant state of communication. I preach once a week, I teach three times a week. And then I, I write two articles, uh, and I do the podcast. So I've just kind of gotten into this groove where in the back of my mind, I'm always thinking about what's the points, what are the, what are the main points? So again, this is, this is my podcast or a sermon, right? Three, three main points. And how do you get from point a to point B to point C with continuity? Because I, I know what's happening in my head, but I want you to understand what, you know, how we're getting to these three points. And if they may be sound, uh, disconnected or disparate, that there are the common allies that link them. And so that's always kind of going on in the back of my head. Um, and so I try to get some main points and then I try to figure out how to get from a, to B, to C, uh, think of good examples and jot those down. So usually I'm only going off of a rough outline. Um, and so sometimes what happens is I finished with a podcast. I'm like, man, I left something great out. But then what I do with that is then I just make a note and then that makes it into another podcast or sometimes I kind of, you know, just like sit and think about that so much at that one tiny point that I left out of a podcast that becomes a thing on its own. Um, so I think an example of that was I talked about dry fly gear lately or recently, and I, uh, thought about, you know, I, I left out all this information about, about leaders and tip it. And now I think, you know what, I could 20 minutes on leaders and tip it. It might not be super riveting, but maybe one piece out of that would be something that people would appreciate. And so that's, that's kind of how I go about, uh, about the, the putting the podcast together. Um, try, try to, you know, one of the problems after being in fly fishing education about teaching casting and about, about stuff like that is you quickly realize that you can show things very easily, but it's very difficult to explain things. So I inevitably throw that caveat out sometimes I'm talking about casting and I'm talking about, um, you know, uh, different, different grips and I'm talking about, uh, applying power at certain parts of the cast and I'm doing it with my hands in my, in my, either in my office or in my home office. And I'm thinking this is just not great podcasting stuff, but then I say, okay, well, but go find somebody who does it. Go find a resource on Orvis's website or go talk to your local fly shop and say, You know, I, I heard about this, maybe he's completely off base, but can you show me? Um, and so that's an important thing. And I think the other part of it too, is one of the things that I really champion, and this, I think applies to every aspect of life is there's people that know a lot, but they might not necessarily know how to articulate it. And, uh, you're, you're not going to learn from somebody who knows, knows a lot, but can't show you and can't explain it to you in ways that you understand. So I've come across this with fly fishing guides, unfortunately, and this is, this is certainly not indictment across the board, because I would say maybe one out of maybe five or one out of 10 that I've encountered where you run into this, where they're super fishy and they know where to go, but they really struggle with, with getting that knowledge from their head, uh, into your head and your hands, bare minimum. And so that's something where I don't feel like I've got the biggest encyclopedia of fly fishing knowledge, but one of the things I feel like I'm quasi gifted in doing is being able to articulate concepts so that Bare minimum people are able to kind of grasp the the core chunks that they need to know to go on and to find Where they can? Find out more.
Katie
Yeah, I really like I really like how you express that just because this has come up a couple times where? guiding definitely Requires that you can catch fish. I mean you can't you can't be a good guide if you can't catch a fish yourself But I think more so is the ability to teach somebody. You know, you can be, I don't want to say a mediocre angler, and I feel like most guides are not mediocre anglers, that would be hard to become a guide that way. But if you can catch a handful of fish, but you can explain exactly how to do that to somebody else, and somebody else catches those handful of fish, they're going to be thrilled. Whereas if you can catch a hundred fish, but you can only explain how to catch one of them to your client, you're going to come off as a worse guide, even though you could catch more fish. And I think the ability to teach and convey information and show someone a good time, that's like probably 75% of being a good guide. You need that 25% that can catch fish, but once you've got that baseline level, you need to be able to convey that to other people in a way that makes them engaged while they're out there, having fun, and also something they come out of that day being like, "Wow, I learned something today." And I feel like it's sometimes overlooked that that's almost a more important part of guiding actually the ability to catch as many fish as possible.
Matthew
Yeah, I would agree wholeheartedly because your best guide is going to have a bad day because you're working with weather, you're working with fish. But I've had very unproductive days on the water where I've like, "Man, that was still 500 bucks well spent because of learning about reading the water, learning about casting, learning about dealing with, with, you know, um, uh, less than ideal elements and things like that. And, but, but you can't express frustration and you can't express, just, just do it harder. You have to explain why are you doing what you're doing? And that is something that I think. Um, you know, I think most, most guides know that, uh, I would say most. Customers, most sports need to acknowledge that, that if they're not catching fish, it's not necessarily the guide's fault. And pay attention to what else you're getting. Because so much of guiding is about that. If you go on a guided trip and you go back the next day and fish the exact same water and you don't catch fish, even though you're catching fish the day before, I don't think that's the guide's fault. I think that's your fault.
Katie
Right. Well, the most the guide can do is get you there and tell you what to do. But at the end of the day, you're the one with the rod in your hands. If they say to put this fly right there and you don't put it there, you know you should have. That's what you got from the guide, is knowing where you should have put the fly and why. And hopefully why is part of it, because I think there's also an element of explaining why we're doing what we're doing, because hearing something and just following it as a set of instructions, you can go, you can do that with your guide, you can repeat that, but maybe something changes the next day when you go out on your own. And if you're repeating the same thing because that's what he told you, maybe that's not the right thing for that situation. But if they're saying, "Hey, because the water level is, you know, the way it is right now, the fish are going to be in this spot for this reason, and therefore we're going to do this thing." That gives you a little bit more context, so when you come back and maybe the water level's not the same, but you have an idea, "Okay, the fish might not be in this pocket anymore because the water went up, so maybe now they're holding a little closer to the bank," or whatever it is. Having the why behind it, I feel like really expands, so you don't just get what the guide told you, but you get what the guide told you and kind of a limitless set of other options that you can then play with in your own mind and kind of build on from there.
Matthew
Exactly. Yeah, it's about building that knowledge base and filling up your toolbox and seeing every opportunity as a chance to add something to that. Maybe you're not catching fish, but if you only grump about that, then you're not taking from the situation what you can take from it.
Katie
So kind of the last thing I wanted to ask about is just like, what does fly fishing look like for you these days? Because I know we've talked about how you have more of like a holistic approach. I feel like you, like many people, probably go through seasons where there's something new that you're focusing on or interested in. And maybe that has to do with your podcast. Maybe you're getting back to just fishing for something you grew up fishing. But like, what is that for you these days? What gets you excited?
Matthew
Yeah. So, you know, honestly, the, uh, the, the newest change to my fly fishing is that my fall and early winter fly fishing has, has diminished significantly because I've taken up duck hunting and that has, that has really changed the way I'm outdoors and it changes the way I look outdoors. Um, it doesn't mean I have stopped altogether. It's just that, you know, if, if I, if there's a nice day and the birds are moving, then to me where I am, that's a much higher value than, uh, going fishing at some of the, like the tail waters around here. Right. So, um, and, and also a lot of the native brook trout streams up in New Hampshire closed down. So it's just easier for me to do that. Um, so that, that's been the biggest change, uh, where I am, but I've got four boys. They are, uh, at present 10, eight, six, and four. And one of the things that we we've started doing just last year is I got a big canoe, a big, um, broad canoe that I can roll like a drift boat and to be able to get out on water that we couldn't have gotten out on before for warm water species and for trout, uh, that's been big. So that this last year, that was a big part of our summer and early fall. I'm excited about doing that this spring. Um, but as far as my solo fly fishing, it really. kind of is limited to two, two main pursuits these days, uh, outside of travel, outside of, you know, other stuff like that. Um, I'm up in the mountains for brook trout. I love to trail run. Um, and I love to fish for brook trout. And so up in the white mountains of New Hampshire and the surrounding areas, they were all logged at one point in time. I mean, just clear cut. Right. And so there's these logging trails along with the other trails that, that exists there, and so it's really easy to do running so I can get, like we were saying before you can get further into the woods, you know, I can get four or five miles out, uh, you know, deep into the woods and do that in about an hour or so. And then fish to my heart's content to fish that probably haven't seen a whole lot of people and then run back out. And so it kills two birds with one stone in the sense I'm fishing. I'm also doing something else I love with trail running. So that's the one big piece. The other pieces, uh, we spend a lot of time at the beach and as the crow flies, I'm like maybe 10 miles from just some spectacular striper fishing. And so that's been another big thing too. And that's fun. Something we can do together where we can all spend time out on the, um, on the beach, hanging out, playing, just relaxing all day, and then every once in a while, just grab the rod and wait out, you know, waist deep and just bomb out some double holes and catch a couple striper and come back and hang out with the kids. Let the kids play with the fish and stuff like that. And, um, and, and so that's kind of where fly fishing is for me these days. It's a lot of incorporating the family. Um, and the, the one thing that I will say that I'm trying to do better with is bringing more people along with me. Uh, that's something that I've always wanted to do. And I just, I make myself busy and I don't do it as well as I should. I feel like it's easier for me to just say, Oh, I'm, I'm bugging out. I'm going to go fishing today, but to plan a day fishing, I just, I just, I'm not good at it. I'm not good at it for myself. I'm not good at, for bringing other people along, but that's something else I want to, uh, want to do, uh, more here in this, this coming season.
Katie
And what is, uh, what does fishing like with your kids? Do they enjoy it? Is it more for you than for them? Or what's that look like?
Matthew
So they absolutely love it. And we're gear agnostic in the sense that there'll be a kid with a fly rod in the front of the canoe and a kid with a spinning rod. And actually my six-year-old is like super fishy and he still likes using the, like the, it's not a Mickey Mouse rod, but it's that style where it comes in the cardboard thing, zip tied to it. And he's got this like two foot long rod that has zero flex in it. But he is just, he can whip that lure out there and he is always into fish. And it's just so much fun to now that we have, uh, we have more boats in our family that we're able to get out into other places and because trees are the bane of children's fishing existence. And so getting your kids out on the water is, is absolutely the best way to do it. So yeah, they, they all enjoy it and they just love being outside. That's and that for me. That's what matters the most like I'm not gonna force him to fish not gonna force him to fly fish But I'm gonna force him to be outside. So sure
Katie
Well, I gotta say that the trees are still the bane of my existence, too. So I feel your kids pain
Matthew
Yeah
Katie
All right. Well just to wrap up Matthew, um, tell people where they can find your podcast your website anywhere else like social media Wherever you want people to find you where can they do that?
Matthew
Sure. So it's casting across calm and And there's a new post every Monday and Wednesday. And then Friday is, uh, my, my podcast gets posted actually goes live Thursday night late, um, and that's just casting across fly fishing on all the major platforms, um, part of the waypoint network. So you can find, uh, find casting across there, um, as well. And then, um, on not super active, but on Facebook and on Instagram and on Twitter, uh, that just, uh, is a way I find that as a, just a good way to interact with people. People don't necessarily want to send an email. People don't necessarily want to comment on anything on the website, but I'll get messages through those channels, which is always fun to interact with people.
Katie
Awesome. Well, I had a great time talking to you today. I love your approach to fishing. It feels very wholesome, I guess. I would say your show is a feel-good show. You listen to it and you feel more connected to the sport, and I feel like you inspire people to get out and really think about what they're doing more so than just catching fish, which I really appreciate. So I just want to thank you for taking the time today and I had a great time with you.
Matthew
Of course. Thank you, Katie. I really appreciate it.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. Fish Untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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