Ep 88: The Last Summer on the Sage, with Derek Bird

Nov 10

Derek Bird is a Founding Editor of Fly Fusion Magazine, Producer of the International Fly Fishing Film Festival (IF4), and author of a new novel called Last Summer on the Sage. In this episode, Derek and I run the gamut of topics, from how to handle the urge to grab a rod when you’re fishing with someone new to the sport, to seeing colorful characters on the water, and switching from nonfiction to fiction fly fishing writing.

Instagram: @derekrbird

Fly Fusion Website: link

Buy the book: link

Waypoint TV

Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. this is episode 88 with Derek Bird on the last summer on the sage. perfect well I always start with a background on my guests and I know we're going to get into some writing and stuff too but I always start with like how did you come to fly fishing how did you get your start?
Derek
Oh, man. Yeah. So that's a, that's a, I mean, it can be as long or short of an answer as you want. Like I've, yeah, I've fly fished my whole life really. Like, and I shouldn't say that. Like, I, I mean, I, I fished my whole life cause I, my family background, we just, that's kind of what we did on the weekends, right? Like growing up, it was like, you know, dad would pull out the topographical maps and, and I can remember being a kid and sitting at a table and kind of like, you know, just loving the look of like, you know, when you'd say, oh, this is where we're going to go this weekend. And we'd kind of look and see what stream that was, you know, that was connected to. And I used to just like, I can remember doing that. And sometimes even as a stress reliever now, like I'll pull out my map books and I'll just be like, you know what, in three months, I'm going to go like, I'm going to go to this place or something like, I find that very, like, just very soothing, very comforting to be able to look at a map book and go, hey, you know what, maybe not many people go here anyways. So, so I really like my dad, he, he started to, I don't even know what years he would have started to fly fish, but it would have been sometime in the seventies. And then, so he would take us spin casting cause he was a, I would say he was a genius as a kind of, as a dad getting kids involved. I think like as a kid, it doesn't really matter how you catch fish. It's just kind of like, you just want to get out and, you know, feel like you're accomplishing something by catching something. And I think my dad did that. And then by about age nine, it was like, I saw that my dad was doing a little bit differently. And, and I was like, Oh, I just, you know, I was a little kid that wanted to be like his dad, essentially. And I just wanted to learn how to fly fish. And so, so my dad, he kind of taught me the ropes, like the basics. And then it was all kind of just, it was all crash course after that, Katie, it was just like, it was like, you know, you learned, you learned how to, you know, cast just by looking at other people around you. And, you know, back then when I was a kid, it wasn't like, it wasn't the same. We didn't have the internet and all that kind of stuff. Right. So it was just kind of like, you'd look in magazines or you'd, you know, look at like, you know, VHS tapes. Right. So it was like stuff like that, where you'd like try to learn from, from stuff like that. And then you'd, you know, run into somebody that really knew what they were doing or whatever, and they could take you out. And I, like, I was very blessed where I grew up because, Um, because I grew up in the Rockies and, and there was like a little, a little lake about five kilometers from my house that my older brother and I, we used to ride our bikes too. We used to just like, you know, tie our fly rods onto our bikes with binder twine. And we used to go and spend the whole day just fishing. And honestly, I can't remember, like, I don't remember bringing any like water or sunscreen or anything like that. We just go and we just fish. Right. And, and we were just so in love with like, just with fishing and it was a stocked lake and that, there was some, actually there was some firemen in the community that kind of built this stocked lake, this old reservoir, they kind of built docks and stuff on it. And, and so as kids, that's where we'd go out and fish. And then, and then as you get a little bit older, your range kind of expands, right? And so we'd ride our bikes, kind of by about 15 years old, we'd be riding our bikes out to, out to some of the rivers in the area. It was, you know, 10 or 15 kilometers outside of town and we'd ride out there and we'd just fish out there for the day. And then, then buddies would get driver's licenses and then, and then away you go, right? Then it was kind of like, as far as however much money you could put in the gas tank, you know, could afford, right? And that's where you'd go to and spend the day there. So, so that, that's like, that's me kind of growing up. Like that's kind of a short answer of me kind of growing up fishing. But, but I think it was just kind of like geography and I grew up in the right family and and you know what's crazy katie is that is that like even today like I'm you know I'm getting I'm getting quite I'll put it in quotes because you know in my mind I'm still young but but I'm like I'm getting you know a little bit older now and but I still like I still can't wait until you know until holiday comes or until like you know I can just run out after work I'll just you know grab my stuff it's in my garage it's just like literally grab my stuff and I'll head out after work for an hour or two. And, you know, I get I still get so excited about that. And I still dream about it. I still tie flies. And, you know, it's just like, I don't know, I think that that I just have been very blessed because because it's like I have that I have that passion for something that's kind of stayed with me for my lifetime so far. And I can't ever imagine it going away. So yeah, but anyways, yeah, that's the that's the short answer.
Katie
So much of what you said rang true to me, like as you're going through things, just the things you brought up, like the feeling of getting your driver's license for the first time and feeling like the world has just gotten so much bigger and you no longer rely on outside sources. Or when you mentioned not bringing water or sunscreen or anything. And it's like I remember that, too, as a kid. And now if I am like driving somewhere and realize I don't have my water, it's like I got to stop somewhere and get some water. I'm not going to be out there. And I used to be out for like eight hours at a time without taking any sort of preparation for anything. And I'm like, why did I used to do that? Like, or how? How did I do that?
Derek
I know. And it was just like, as kids, right? You're so, I think we're so much more oblivious. And I love the ignorance that we have as kids, right? Like, where it's just like, you don't even know how dangerous it likely is, you know, to be out there all day without sunscreen. But that's just like, that's just what we did. you know, if mom wasn't kind of like, you know, I grew up on five acres and, and, you know, in kind of that, that place where it was like, you know, mom would just send us outside, like, that's where she wanted us. She didn't want us inside, right? It was, there was something wrong if we were, if we were inside. And so like, I can remember, remember, like, you know, if we were in earshot, it was, you know, dinner times, mom came out onto the porch and she's, and that's what she yelled. She yelled, you know, dinner time. And then you'd, you know, you'd come running in and that was kind of like the first, the first time in that day, right? It was, but that was, I don't know, that was growing up for me. And I feel so like, just so privileged that I grew up in a time like that where, where I had to be outside. And it's funny because I have like, literally, I have so many stories, which probably the older I get, the more people like will cringe and kind of like back away from me because they're like, oh, there's an old guy with stories. Let's not get too close to him. But, but like, I have so many stories, like to the point where people that spend a lot of time with me, they're like, no way, there's no way that that happened to you too. And I'm like, Oh, no, it did. And they can't even believe it. But it's because it's because, you know, my parents just were like, you know, I go out, like go to the river and go fishing, go out and you know, just go and do whatever you're going to do on the five acres, Right. And when you when you kind of grow up like that, you literally have like so many stories just because it's like because you're playing with friends all the time.
Katie
Right. Yeah. Things happen.
Derek
Well, exactly. And things happen. And sometimes like, you know, you almost you think you almost lose your life, even though it's not really that big of a deal usually. But but sometimes, you know, you go through that and sometimes you got to figure things out with friends because you don't get along with them. But man, it's all part of it, right? And what a fantastic way to grow up. Like just, yeah.
Katie
Oh man, I love hearing all this because it's just, I'm thinking back to, I had the same situation. I would go over to my cousin's house and we'd come home when the lights turned on, when the streetlights turned on, or when we got called back at dinner. And like you said, so much happened during the day that the adults had no idea what's going on. And looking back now, I'm like, we probably were getting ourselves into some dangerous situations, but we weren't aware of it and nothing actually happened. So, you know, it all worked out in the end. But I feel like that is very valuable for a child. And I don't know if you kind of feel the same way, but I feel like that breeds a certain like resilience in kids to be able to go out and basically rely on yourself all day.
Derek
Oh, so well put, Katie, like so well put. I think that and not that, you know, not that I want to sound all like nostalgic and this is the only way to, you know, raise kids or this is like, not that I want to sound like that, but there is like just enormous value. Right. I think that, like kind of the opposite, the opposite, you know, as far as parenting is helicopter parenting, where you're just kind of like, you're hovering over your kid and, and you just, you know, it's so hard. Um, and I'm, I'm guilty of that. Right. Like I, you know, here I was where my parents just kind of were like, you know what, go and just go and do right go and figure things out and I definitely wasn't like that as a parent right it was kind of a different time where you know you heard that you know there's all these nasty things that can happen to your kids right and so you kind of like ah so so you do that and I think that you know in doing kind of that that micromanaging and I'm not saying that that that you know you don't want to be involved in as parents because it's so so important to be it just really is but but there's a balance right? There's a huge balance to find and to strike in that area where it's like, where it's like, you know, to, to micromanage, well, of course your kids are going to end up, you know, very stressed out a lot of the time. If there's somebody who's always watching over their shoulder, whereas if they're allowed to kind of like make their own mistakes and kind of figure out from those mistakes that, you know, that, that maybe they would have done it differently this next time, or maybe, you know, when this comes up, they wouldn't, they wouldn't handle something the same. then there's a lot of, there's a lot of kind of natural humanness that goes into that. That's very healthy. Right. That's like, because, you know, even think of, you know, yourself and what you do or what, what I do, it's like, it's like, yeah, sometimes I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna make a mistake. Sometimes I'm not going to get it right. Um, but I can tell you that, that when I've kind of figured that out and navigated through it, that, that there's something healthy about that, that, you know, as opposed to kind of like, well, here's the parameters and there's always parameters. There's always somebody looking over your shoulder, man, that's a, that's a tough way to operate for anybody. Nevermind, you know, whether it's a kid or an adult or whoever it is, you know, that's a tough way to operate. And I think like even, you know, when we're talking about fly fishing, when you go out, you know, when you go out with a mentor or something like that, or when you go out with friends, like, and I'm guilty of this sometimes too, right? Where I'll go out with somebody who might not know, who might not know as much about fly fishing as me, where I'll, you know, I'll take somebody new out or something like that. And, and sometimes I'll hover a little bit, right? Like I'll be like, oh, you know, do this and do it differently. And, and I have to really read the situation when I do that because, because some people, some people really want to just figure it out. Like they want to be there with you and they want to ask questions when they have a question. And, and then other people are like, are like very much like, oh no, like, like stand right beside me. And so, so as a, like, as somebody who's, who's kind of like, you know, help to mentor other people in fly fishing and stuff, that's something that I have to be, be careful of because, because my natural inkling is to stand right beside them and just be like, okay, now, now do this and oh, catch like, like fire the fly right there. Right. But not everybody wants that. Like not everybody, you know, feels comfortable with that. And when somebody's like gone out and, and like, you know, you've shown them the basics and then they've done those basics and, you know, maybe they've missed a fish or something like that. They're, they're fine for like a week or two after that, just living on the thought that, that they cast it all by themselves and they almost caught a fish. That's like, that's, that's more gold to them than, than, you know, had I been standing right beside them and gone, okay, cast right there. You know, so it just, I guess it depends on personality too, right? But.
Katie
Yeah. I've definitely experienced the same thing where you've got somebody who really kind of needs that hand holding versus somebody who doesn't, they don't really want you there, but they're not going to tell you to go away. Right. You kind of have to gauge the situation. I find myself, I've apologized to people before because I'm correcting every cast they do. I'm like, not there. Put it to the left. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I just want you to succeed here. I'm not trying to nitpick everything you're doing. I just like, you know, you get so jazzed up because you see where you want the fly to land. And when it doesn't land there, you're starting to explode. You just really want them to place it right there. You're trying to live through them as they fish while they're still learning. And it is a weird balance of figuring out how to talk to somebody.
Derek
And you know what's so cool is thinking about what you just said where you're standing there and you're like, oh, you missed that. Place that right there. I had this one friend and I took him to my favorite spot ever, right? Because he had driven for like 10 hours. So I figured that I better take him to my favorite spot.
Katie
So I did. Yeah.
Derek
so so I took him and and it was a tough cast and I could just see like there was this massive bull trout he was sitting under this log jam and but it was a tough cast to get it there but the guy was fishing with my buddy he was he was a pretty he was pretty good so I'm like so I'm like oh he'll be able to make it right and so he like so I said okay so there's that log sticking out of the water this way and I said and then there's this log this way and so you gotta like you gotta to kind of like, you got to place it like, like right there, but that, that bull trout is tucked, he's tucked under there. So you got to put it inches from there. And by the way, and don't lose that fly. Cause that fly is like a $7 fly to tie. And so, so just like, and so, so he did it. So he made the cast and I just went, I went, Oh, I said, you missed it. Like, and I went, I said it like that too. Right. It was kind of like, Oh, like disappointed. Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, I'm like, well, just, just strip it in really quickly. And so he takes two strips and I watched that bull trout leave its lie. And it just like shot across and hit that fly. And I'm like, well, look who, look, who's the guy that's learning now, right? Like, like, here I am telling him that he missed the cast. And it ended up being that that bull trout saw that fly probably heard it land, right? He's probably looking for something to hit the water. And he just came out and hit that fly as beautiful as big, huge bull trout. And I was kind of like eating my words, because I'm like, yeah, no, that, that worked just fine.
Katie
Well, that's a great example of like. You know, you never master it because you see where you think the fly should land. But that doesn't mean that's where the fish actually is hanging out at that moment. Like that's where it in theory should be most of the time. But, you know, you find fish doing weird things sometimes. Sometimes they don't eat what you expect them to or they're not sitting where you expect them to. And then there they are. And you have to kind of remember that it's not as much of a like a science where like a right answer or a wrong answer as you want it to be. You know, there's always exceptions.
Derek
Well, and that's, and that's so true. And I think that sometimes it's like, you know, you hear that experience is your worst enemy sometimes. And, and I think like that to me kind of sums up what you just said, which is, which is very, very true. And I find it, I find for myself anyways, because I'm a creature of habit, right? Like I, I kind of can operate well when, when I've figured out my parameters and I can like, you know, and I can go back to that and be like, okay, well, you know what, last year at this time, this is what was working. And this is, you know, and so, so, and generally that, that, like, that bodes well, it like, it's something that, that comes across really well. Like when you're fly fishing, if you've kind of done the work and, you know, been there before and know kind of, you know, either what hatch is going to be happening generally around that time. But then too, like, like I've had that where it's totally, where it's totally bit me in the butt where I've stayed with, you know, I've stayed with a fly too long because it worked last year at that time. Right. Or, you know, but, but where there's something that's changed, right. Whether it's, you know, a different weather system that's moved through or whatever it is that's, you know, that's, that's kind of come along. And I mean, just like, just literally like a week ago that had happened where I'm just like, you know, the, I was fishing some, you know, some lower clear water for, for trout. And normally at this time of year, I'll find them kind of in, in a few different runs, in a few different runs, kind of like, like middle of the run in the depth. And, and then this last time I went, my eyes were like totally open because, because there I was like, and I caught a few in kind of where I knew they'd be. But then I kept moving down, down this, this one run to the point where I'd never fished it before, just because I'm like, well, it's too shallow, right? But I was kind of looking and it was too shallow and it was too slow. And I'm like, but I was looking and I saw a little bit of movement like here and there in the water. And I'm like, what in the world, what in the world is that? And why haven't I like actually paid attention to that before? And, and sure enough, like, you know, here I was at kind of like, we're talking like in less than a, you know, less than a foot of water, probably more like half a foot of water. You know, I was casting these like these little like kind of salmon fry minnow patterns at the tail outs of these pools. And, and man, like, like you want to talk about an amazing fishing day. Like I was watching, I could actually see like these trout leaving their lie because the water was only like, you know, a little bit less than a foot deep. I could actually see them like leaving their lie and chasing my fly. And I'm just like, oh man. So I don't know why I've been like just fishing, like the depths of these runs, you know, kind of the last few years, like when, when I could be fishing kind of, you know, down towards the, you know, the tail outer in some of these shallower spots where these fish are like, obviously picking off the fry, you know, I, I didn't even think of that, right. Because I had said some success on like with different patterns up higher. And so I just didn't think of that. And so here I was, my eyes were like totally open just because I saw, you know, a movement that I paid a little bit of attention to. And I'm like, what the heck? like what's going on down there no that's too that's too shallow like I would never you know I would never catch a fish in that right but no sure enough there they were and and big trout too like they were you know they were. well they were big for my area, probably not for your area
Katie
I catch a lot of small fish
Derek
oh do you?
Katie
yeah I could catch bigger ones if I went to some of the the bigger rivers but I tend to avoid the crowds and go to the real small streams
Derek
right yeah and what a great trade-off too. I find anyways like I find that that's a I'm totally willing to make that trade-off like you know going to some of the smaller or willing to catch some smaller trout in some like more pristine places like I love that I absolutely love that now when you can find both when you can find like big trout in pristine places then it's like you just never ever want to leave
Katie
right you know I feel like what you said there with like trying some of these they they seem like less successful areas. You know, you, you look at it and you're just like, that doesn't look very fishy. Um, I feel like for me, in order to find those spots, I often need to have had some success in the, like quote unquote good looking water because it's, there comes a point where I've caught enough fish that I'm like, I don't really care if I catch anymore. So I'm going to start messing around. I'm going to like try a fly that I don't really think will work or try a new presentation that I don't think will work or fish in water that I don't think will work. Um, and it, it's nice because you've got a couple of fish under your belt. So if you don't catch another one that day, you're not really like torn up about it. But that has led to some, some pretty like fun discoveries where I pull a fish out of somewhere that didn't look like it could hold a fish. And you're like, wow, that, you know, that isn't what I thought when I, when I showed up here.
Derek
Yeah. And really well put too. Like that's, it's, you know, it's tough to, I think it's tough to effectively search when, you know, when you're stressed out, right? And, and I still feel that sometimes where I'm just like, where, where I go to like, well, I'm, you know, I'm there to catch fish. I want to catch fish and, and, you know, where I'll go and I'll just be like, okay, this isn't working and this isn't working. And I find that that's not always the best time to kind of like, even though, even though that's when, you know, when you should, like one of the guys that I fish with, he's so good at that. Like he's, you know, he's caught a lot of fish. He's like probably one of the best anglers I know. And, and he's like, he's so calm all the time, where I can feel myself, you know, I tell I can tell my stress level when I'm fishing by how often I start to change my fly, right? So it's like,
Katie
Like a desperation thing.
Derek
When I start to like rifle through my box and I'm like, well, I've tried that one and that one and that one, nothing's working. You know, that's that's when we should probably be trying those areas that, you know, maybe we, you know, haven't haven't like gone to and like fished kind of like, you know, in that section before. But that's probably when we should try. But but that's not normally what we do when we get more stressed out. Right. When we get more stressed out, things just get narrower and narrower and narrower.
Katie
You just got to stay calm.
Derek
Yeah. You can feel that fight or flight kind of taking over and try to remind yourself that, oh, hey, wait a sec, you're just fishing. And really, it doesn't matter whether you catch a fish or not. Right. This isn't survival that we're talking about here at this time in our lives. So, yeah. Or at this era that we live in. Yeah. Probably not for everybody, but yeah.
Katie
You mentioned that sometimes you get stuck on like they were eating this time last year. Do you keep any sort of fishing journal where you keep track of that? Because I keep one where I write down what's working with the hope that I can use it in the future. But like you said, you can get a little bit locked in where you're like, this is what was working. So now this is what's going to work. But just curious if you have any sort of like habit around that.
Derek
Yeah, no, that's a really good question. And I'm embarrassed to say that I don't because when I say that, oh, yeah, this is working last year. I like to think I have a good memory, which I know that I don't actually have a good memory. But when it comes to important things like fishing, which I just said wasn't super important, I have a pretty good memory of what I used and that type of thing. And then too, like, so I don't actually keep a journal. And I know that I've often thought or I've often thought to myself, well, I need to, you know, I need to keep a journal and like kind of write these things down. But what I do is kind of like my pictures have essentially become my journal, right? And so I'll make sure that if I'm catching them on a certain fly or whatever, that I'll be taking pictures at that point of that, you know, of that fly or make sure that I get a close up of it in its mouth or something like that, just so I can so I can see. But generally, I remember kind of like the places that you know, the places that I go to and, and kind of what works at certain times. But yeah, yeah.
Katie
One other thing you said that I wanted to kind of pick your brain about was, like you when you took that guy out, and there was this log jam, there was a fish under it. And you're, you're kind of like, I don't feel like he can make this cast. But you know, And I was thinking back to this recent trip I took out with a complete beginner, never touched a fly rod before. And I had this dilemma where I saw a fish sitting in a really tough spot. It was kind of like under a bank with some like brush in the way. And I had this moment of like, you're, you know, we were out there for that person. Like I was not there to fish, but I was like, I feel like you're not going to make this work. Then we're going to have to go wait over there to grab your fly out of the tree. And then the fish is going to be gone. So do I let you do this and the fish is gone and no one catches anything? Or do I tell you that I should take this cast because I might be able to get this fish out of there and then we can move up and go back to some open water? What would you do in that situation? At what point do you take over and say, there's a 1% chance you're going to be able to land this cast without getting it caught in a tree and blowing this whole thing up. And I got to take over here because someone's got to catch this fish.
Derek
Yeah, that's like, you should write some of my columns for me. I think that this is what I love to write my columns about, is little stuff like this, right? Where it's like, oh yeah, this one time.
Katie
Like very niche situations.
Derek
Yeah, yeah, and should I have? And like, now here's a real dilemma that they should be studying in some type of like philosophy ethics class right here, right? Yeah. So, so I feel, I feel like, in that case, I would, I would do one of two things. I would either, I would either hit it depending on the person. I would either hit it straight on and just be like, you know what, this is going to be a tough cast for me to make. Would you mind if I just like tried to try to get this fish? Cause it's in a really tough lie. So I'd either hit it straight on or I've been known to be a little bit like backhanded. Isn't the right word. Cause I wouldn't like to think of myself as backhanded. What's the positive term for backhanded? Sometimes I'll be like, I shouldn't even admit this. But sometimes I'll be like, I'll be like, oh, you know what? Here, let me show you how to throw a reach mend. And so I'll take the rod and say, this is how you do this. And oh, wow, look at that. Oh my goodness. There's a fish that came up onto there. So I think it depends on the person.
Katie
So you're definitely going for the fish yourself. It's just a matter of whether you're telling the person that you're doing it or you're convincing them that you're helping them.
Derek
Yeah. Oh, yeah. 100%. Especially if there's like, especially if there's like quite a few fish in the stream that day. And, and, but you, but like you said, you know, like, if it's going to be like a, you know, a fly losing scenario where they're, you know, that they're going to miss it, and they're just not quite, they're not quite there yet, then does that sound awful? No, no, no. I totally identify with what you said. Are you going for it too?
Katie
First of all, I want to say I like the fly-losing scenario. I think the FLS needs to be something that is coined because I think we've all been there. You know there's a 99% chance it's a fly-losing scenario. I love that. I'm trying to think. I think I let my person give it a try and it didn't work. So I had caught a fish earlier that day. It wasn't supposed to be a day for me. I was out there helping this person. But the first cast of the day, just showing them how to do it, I caught like a massive fish for this creek. So I was already like super excited. I was like, I have like outdone what I expected today. So I let them go for it. And, you know, we messed up. We walked in there and blew it up to get the fly out of the tree. But I also knew there was a lot more good water upstream that we were going to hit. And like, I knew we were going to catch some fish. But I think having already caught probably the biggest fish I've ever caught out of this little creek, like 20 minutes prior, I just did not care about taking a cast. And I honestly didn't really care about losing a fly or having to walk in there to get it. So I did the honorable thing and let them do it.
Derek
Way to go. See? So your listeners, your listeners right now will be like, if they ever get a chance, like where they have to make a choice between fishing with you or I, 100%, hands down, they fish with you every time. Because they're like, because they're like, because they're like, oh, that guy, he'll like, he'll steal a fish from me. And I won't even know that he did it on purpose.
Katie
Yeah, you'll have tricked them. Well, I mean, at least they'll get the knowledge of whatever intricate cast you're teaching them that is way beyond their skill level and they'll never be able to do it.
Derek
Sure, yeah. That's right. Now, there was like, I think one of my most like, I don't know, is it a badge of honor when you take people out and they catch fish even though they haven't really cast a lot? I don't know what you'd call that, but, but like, this one guy that I know he'd been asking me to take him for a while and he's very much an outdoor enthusiast. And, and you know how, when you meet somebody there's like, and not that we're not that I'm the judge and not that, you know, any of us are, but, but sometimes where you run into somebody who's like, Oh yeah, I really want to learn to fly fish. And you're like, there's something about their personality where you're like, Hey, that's not going to work for you. Right. Like, like you have about this much patience and it just might not come together for you. But anyways, but he was like, he's somebody that like, when you met him, you're just like, oh, you must fly fish, because he just has like that kind of personality, right? Where? So, so he said, so we talked about this lake that we're going to go into that we're going to hike way into. And I said, Oh, yeah, it's about an hour and a half hike. Well, it turned out to be like a, you know, a three hour hike, because the trail was gone. And there was like massive windfall. And the place that I live has like, you know, just absolutely massive like cedar trees, like, you know, kind of seven, 800 year old cedar trees. And so when they fall, it's like, you have to walk a long ways around those to get kind of back to trail again. Anyways, long story short. So I took them in and, and, and getting in there took a long time. And so I thought, well, I'll kind of, I'll do the kind of even less than a crash course on like casting. Cause it's like, you know, we really got to make the most of kind of fishing. Right. And, and I could see, like, I could see a number of trout, like sitting kind of at this stream that was coming into the lake. I could see a number of trout there and I could see that they were actually feeding on fry that were coming out of the, coming out of the, the, the creek. And so I said to him, I'm all, okay. And so I like, so I cast way away from that. And I said, okay, this is how you cast. All right. So he's going to, and I gave him like, honestly, it was like a minute. Like, and I said, and it doesn't matter. I said, you just put that cast kind of over there. Like I said, even if you cast 10 or 15 feet, I said, you'll get it close enough and then just start stripping that fly. And, and so he did, he did like the total crash course where it was like, he did everything that I said, literally the fly kind of like, you know, he made about a 10 or 15 foot cast. It would have been maybe, maybe 20 feet, but a lot of the kind of leader and everything kind of piled up in front of him. And then he started stripping and sure enough, on his very first cast, he caught a trout. It was a nice trout too. It was like 15 inches. And so I just, I was like, oh man, that was like, cause I said to him, I said, you're going to catch a trout on your very first cast. I've never seen that before, like with a fly rod. And sure enough, he did. And I was just like, Hey, that felt good. That felt really good. He was so excited. And, and to this day, he like, he is like probably one of the most avid kind of like newcomers to fly fishing that, that I've ever met. He's just like, he eats and breathes it. He'll send me, he'll send me like pictures where he sent me a picture like a few months ago where he was in downtown Vancouver. He had to go over there for business. And he took a picture of like this construction hole that had filled up with water. And he captioned it, do you think there's any trout in there? And I'm like, hey, you've been bitten really badly.
Katie
Yeah, you're looking too hard at this point.
Derek
Yeah, that's right. So that's how hooked he is. But anyways, it's yeah.
Katie
I'm impressed that he landed that fish because something that I do a lot is I forget to walk someone through what needs to happen once they get the fish to bite or get it hooked because then it's just like panic and you're like I didn't cross this bridge yet because I thought we weren't going to catch one right now and and now you've you have it on the line and you're just freaking out and it's like trying to explain calmly how to you know tuck the line under your finger and like slowly strip it in and keep the rod tip up and all this stuff it's just like pandemonium but it's really hard to explain that until you're till you have a fish on because like how do you explain
Derek
Exactly.
Katie
Like bringing in a fish. So I feel like the first fish often just gets away because of just the chaos.
Derek
Because of that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like they kind of like let all the slack out and the fish just gets off. Yeah. I know. I was shocked. I was shocked that, yeah, he landed it, everything. So maybe it was hooked really well. But yeah.
Katie
Some people just have like a natural feeling. Like for me and for most people, I'd say that at some point it clicks for you where, you know, when you get a good cast, it just feels right. Like you just understand the mechanics of what needs to happen. And some people I feel like never get there. But sometimes I come across somebody who just seems to get it right away. Like you don't have to explain a lot. They just kind of intuitively know what to do with their hands. And it's always really nice to work with somebody like that because you don't have to do as much to explain, you know, what to do and why.
Derek
Yeah, which is funny because when you're showing somebody how to fly fish, you like by you, I mean, you like generally like myself and everybody it's like it's like you start to realize how much you just kind of take for granted because you've been doing it like kind of your whole life whatever
Katie
how long have you been fly fishing?
Derek
oh I've been fly fishing for 10 years now and fishing since I was very little. and there's like there's so much that you just kind of like it's just so second nature right once you've done it for so many years and you don't even realize that until, until, like you said, until you take somebody out and, you know, where they've, where they're kind of like, oh yeah, well, I didn't explain that. I never even thought to explain that. Right. Like whether it's kind of, you know, holding the, holding the fly line with your finger as you're kind of stripping stuff through or whatever it is. Right. Like, it's just like, oh yeah, I wouldn't even have thought to explain that. So I think it's, you know, there's a lot of good and kind of like taking people out. And yeah, I feel like, I feel like I sounded like an awful person when I said, I can tell when some people aren't going to fly fish, you want to fly fish. So maybe I'll, I'll strike, I'll strike that from the record, but even though I still think it.
Katie
Man, you're just revealing all kinds of things about yourself today.
Derek
Right. It's the, it's my, my post, my post sickness. I'm like, I'm far too like, I have my, my mental filter's gone. So just ask away, ask anything you want.
Katie
No, I've actually been talking to a couple of people about this recently that, yeah, I'm sure you've experienced this. You mentioned that you fly fish and inevitably somebody in the group goes like, oh, I've wanted to learn how to do that. And there's two different people who say that. There's the person who truly does want to learn. They will do whatever it takes to learn. They don't care about catching fish. They're going to be out there to soak up everything you tell them. And then there's the person who kind of is more like casually, like, that sounds like a fun experience. I'd like to go out and do this once and take some photos. And I've kind of lost patience with teaching people who I can tell don't really care beyond going once to have had the experience versus someone who truly is like, I want to do this permanently for the rest of my life. And I'm, I'm more than willing to help somebody who I can tell is really, really wanting to learn, but I'm kind of over teaching people who are treating it more like a novelty experience because, you know, I'll be like talking and I'll turn there like texting somebody and I'm like, Hey, if you're not going to be like soaking this in, then I could be fishing myself or doing one of a million other things right now. So I totally like feel what you're saying there.
Derek
Yeah, because it is, it's a, right? It's an investment. I think on both people's part, it's an investment because, and it sounds like you get it exactly because it's like when you go out fly fishing, it's, you know, you're not, like, I think for people that absolutely love fly fishing and they do it, right? Like, it's like, well, no, that's what I do, right? When I'm not working and when I'm not writing and, you know, that's what I do. Like, I fly fish and that's kind of how I drink in life a little bit, right? Or a lot. So when you go out with somebody who's just kind of like, who's kind of like, meh.
Katie
Lukewarm on it, yeah.
Derek
Kind of lukewarm on it. It's tough because you realize that when you're out there, it's like, well, you're, you know, you're sacrificing time, which you're totally willing to do. But, but you want to see that it's paying some dividends too, right? You want to see that, that they're kind of like, like starting to soak it up too. But, but you're right. There are, there are people that, that have, and I guess we fall in love with things for, for vastly different reasons. But, but I think that, you know, some people will, some people will become very, very engulfed in it. And, and you kind of like, I'm like with that person, I'm willing to, to like, literally just kind of like give them as much as they want, like, as far as like information or like any extra stuff that I have, like I'll, you know, tip it or whatever. Like I'm, I'm willing to just kind of, you know, give them flies, whatever it is. Right. Like when you see that they're just like, that they're starting to fall in love with it because you know how important it was to you at some point in your life, like picking it up, you know, that, that it becomes like, you know? It becomes like, I don't know. I don t want to overstate it, but you know, when you, the more you do in life and the more things you kind of experience, the more stuff you go through, you realize. That, that if you, you know, if you picked up something that you love, like a pastime that you love, whatever stage you kind of came across it. And it's something that kind of is part of who you are, then you, you realize that there's actually like this, there's something almost not accidental about it. And, and I don't know what that is, but, but it becomes so infused with, you know, with who, who I am or, or other people who I know who love fly fishing, it becomes so infused with who they are that, that it's like, it's almost like it's not accidental. It's almost like, well, no, it's like, it's, it's part of what they do. And it's, you know, it's part of. And maybe, and I joked earlier about how, you know, how, you know, catching a fish now, how it's not survival, but maybe it is. Maybe it is still survival, but not in the sense where we need to eat it anymore, but where we need it to keep us sane because of where we're at culturally. Do you know what I mean?
Katie
Oh, absolutely.
Derek
Maybe I've overstated it, which sometimes I do overstate things and I acknowledge that too. But when I have a stressful time at work or when there's different stresses in my life, I can go out and spend time on the river and allow myself to breathe again in a way where it's like, no, I can handle that stress now. I can. And I've always been able to. But now I know that or I'm reminded that I can because, you know, because because things kind of make sense out here. Right. Yeah. I just think a lot of people feel that way.
Katie
And there's like there's different levels. I feel like you would also kind of cringe at the idea that fly fishing is like a hobby, but, you know, it's a hobby. But yeah, it's like you said, it's kind of like part of, you know, my identity at this point where if I never fished again, I wouldn't feel like the same person. Whereas, for example, we love disc golfing. Like I love going disc golfing, but if I never went again, I wouldn't feel like I was a different person. It would just be like, okay, I'll find something else I like doing in, in place of that. But that it doesn't feel the same like facet of my life as something like fishing does where it, it truly feels like an integral part of me. And I think a lot of people probably identify with that as well. Like other people I've talked to have expressed similar things.
Derek
Yeah. I was, I was, I was rereading some, some of the, Jack London's works just in the last kind of week or two. And, he, so he wrote like, I mean, he wrote in, I think the late 1800s, early 1900s, he wrote things like, to build a fire was, which was a short story, which I can remember reading as a kid. Um, he wrote called the wild, but, but there's something, there's something about, in his writing where he recognizes kind of a need, a need to, to kind of like surround ourselves with, with things that are outside of civilization, right. Where, where it's like, where it's like, there's, there's something that kind of deep within us, whether it's in our DNA or, or part of our ancestry or whatever it is, there's something within us that, that becomes kind of like rejuvenated or refreshed or connects with, with something that, that is parallel to who we actually are, that, that goes on when we're, when we're out there that, that happens when we're out there. And I suspect that, you know, that what it is, is it's like, you know, we, we have to, we have and kind of like, you know, at work or whatever it is, we're, we're, you know, we're involved in this kind of like, the cultural, I guess you could call it like a cultural dance where, we're, you know, we want people to be kind of in step with what we're doing and seeing kind of seeing life the way that people are the way that we see life and things like that. When we're out there, we're reminded that, that actually know that, that we're actually more, we're more maybe fulfilled as a human being when we're out there kind of paying attention to what's going on and us getting in step with that, right? Which is, you know, which maybe, you know, maybe that has some, some implications to some far reaching implications as far as like, you know, whether it be, you know, and not to sound doomsday at all, but whether it be something like climate change or something like that, right? Where it's like, you know, maybe there's some, some things that we can do and get better at where we need to, you know, we as human beings that are, you know, very much, you know, populating the planet in a way that we haven't seen before, maybe we need to learn to get in steps with, with kind of what's going on so that we can, so that we can become better at surviving, and then thriving here. Right. So anyways, that got really big way too quickly. And I apologize for that, but, but that's kind of how my mind works. So, yeah, that's one of the starkest things.
Katie
Um, we notice every year, like for fishing I do I do several like multi-day trips every year but i've noticed it more when we go hunting because we'll often be out for like a week straight and there's something that happens around day three or so where the first couple days feel really challenging you're waking up early you know you're hiking a ton of miles and you're just kind of exhausted and at some point around day three or four you kind of just get in the rhythm where you wake up before the sun then you you fall asleep when the sun goes down like you kind of fall into the natural rhythm of how a day works that doesn't necessarily coincide with like going to work. You know, you might go to work, you know, four hours after the sun comes up or you might have to get up, you know, before the sun rises and it like it, it feels disconnected from the actual cycle of the day. And there's something where you can kind of follow the rhythm and it becomes just natural. Like you wake up, you eat your food and everything is just a very simple, like, what do I need right now? I need food. I need water. I need to get up when the sun comes up. I need to go to bed when the sun goes down and you just feel so like tuned into the cycle that we were, I guess, designed to, you know, fall into. And it feels very nice, a very comforting feeling when you hit that point.
Derek
It is. Yeah. And it's funny because it's funny because, and great use of the word comforting, right? Like there's something, there's something very natural about it. And yet, you know, and yet we, we kind of remove ourselves from that, right? Like we, because, because really a lot of, you know, a lot of the jobs that we have or whatever it is, we, we kind of move ourselves away from that, you know, specifically if, you know, if we have to work, you know, shift work or whatever it is, right. We kind of, we kind of move on and we don't have a choice. Like we don't, we have to survive. And that's part of survival too, right. Is earning a paycheck. But, but I mean, what a great time for us to live. And I'm often reminded of this myself, but, but wasn't just an absolutely amazing time that we live in where, where we can get time off, right. From work to go and, to go and remind ourselves that, that, you know, that there are different patterns and maybe there are healthier patterns and maybe one day, maybe not in our lifetime, maybe in our kid's lifetime or their kid's lifetime. Um, maybe they'll be able to, you know, kind of get closer to that. Right. And, but maybe not, I don't know, maybe that's just like kind of this pipe dream that's kind of way out there. But, but you're right, there is there is something there is something that's very healthy. And and I can see I can see why, you know, why it is that artists or writer types, why they can go and kind of live in a cabin, you know, on a creek or in a river, on a river kind of out in the middle of nowhere, and kind of, and kind of there, they can become more kind of fulfilled as an artist when they're out there doing that. You can see why that is. And it's, and it's because it's, you know, it's, it's just, I don't know, I don't know if the word is humbling. I don't know what it is. But but there's something humbling about, about being part of kind of certain natural rhythms that happen. That's interesting that, you know, that that you say you do that when, you know, when you're out hunting, or kind of camping, whatever it is, where you're out there, and that's, and that's happening. But, you know, that that seems to be, yeah, there's something, it'd be interesting to explore that more, Katie, like to figure out what it is. And maybe it doesn't even need exploration. Maybe it's just as simple as kind of like, well, that's kind of us. We're kind of like, you know, dust to dust, right? Not to sound kind of too, what's the word? Macabre? Is that the word? Macabre? Not to sound too dark about it, But dust to dust, right? Which means that, yeah, we're kind of part of the planet too, right? Like as much as we want to kind of elevate ourselves and, you know, we're kind of part of that too. And so maybe that's why we kind of feel that rhythm or why we feel, I don't know, like there's this one place in BC that I fish and I fish there every summer because it's like my favorite place on the planet. And it's right, it's kind of this little headwater stream right in the Rockies. And there's some nice, decent trout there. And it's just kind of one of the most beautiful places that I've ever been to. And but but when I go there and fish, when I stand there and fish like like I'm just I just want to I want to actually be kind of part of kind of sitting back and seeing what's going on. Like I can I can not just fish there, but I can actually just sit and watch, too. And I love that. I really, really love that. And, you know, I find myself sometimes, you know, when I when I get a little stressed out or something, I find that that's like actually my happy place where I'm like, where I actually like close my eyes sometimes. And I'll think, oh, this summer I'll be going back there. Right. And and so anyways.
Katie
Well, I'm going to do a grand transition here since you brought up work and and how disconnected that feels. Let's transition to your work, which is writing, which it's taken us 45 minutes to get to it. But that's great. I've totally enjoyed this conversation. But the reason you reached out to me in the first place is that you have a new novel out. So I'd love to, we're going to definitely get to the novel. But I also want to hear like how you got started in writing. Is that your full-time gig as being an author at this point?
Derek
No. No. So no, it's not. I wish that it, I'd love for it to be one day. I don't necessarily expect that it will be, but I, but I'm also a bit of a dreamer too. Right. So, so I would love, I love the flexibility of a writing lifestyle. Like I absolutely love it. Where it's just kind of like, you know, you get to go places and it takes you places where you're just like, Oh, this is like, you know, one of the most beautiful places in the planet. And, so I don't write full time. I, I teach, so I teach high school. I work for, I work for a magazine, Fly Fusion magazine as well. And I have worked full time for the magazine at, at different times. Um, I've, I've definitely worked full time for them as well, but, but yeah, no, I, I love teaching. I love writing. Um, the older I get, the more I can see myself kind of like writing full time, but, but you know what, that requires kind of like that requires, you know, enough people to, enough people to, to kind of enjoy what I write as well. Right. So Um, yeah, so, so that, I don't know, that's kind of the answer to that question. I kind of, I teach, I write, I speak. Um, I do, yeah, I do a little of kind of everything right now, and I'd love for it to, to kind of gravitate towards writing one day, but we'll see, we'll see. Right. I think that kind of all these different, things that I get to do, you know, whether it be going really cool places and filming with a magazine or, you know, filming and doing a short film for like IF4 or something like that, or, you know, whether it be kind of writing a book or whether it be teaching or whatever it is, I think that, that there's a lot of fulfillment that I get in all of those areas. And because, yeah, because those things are, they're kind of, I don't know, I think that we kind of gravitate towards things that provide us with some fulfillment too, right? And so those things, they do that. They kind of fill my tank. As much as life can get stressful at times with certain work and stuff like that, I haven't stayed at it for as long as I've stayed at it because it kind of drains me. It also fills me up as well. So, yeah.
Katie
So tell me about Fly Fusion. Did you say that you're like one of the founding editors of it?
Derek
I am. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I am. I think that we started, so it was the early 2000s actually, and it was my brother who called me and said that, said that he was thinking about starting a magazine and would I want to be, you know, would I want to be involved in it? And so, yeah. So, so we started in kind of early 2000s and I'm listed as the founding editor. I, you know, I came up with the, the name of the magazine and, and partially the direction of the magazine too. We, you know, we wanted a magazine that was more instructional rather than kind of destination based. And, and so that's kind of what we, that's what we accomplished. And that was one of our, yeah, just one of our driving, kind of our driving goals was to, to do that. Um, and, cause we, yeah, I mean, and you know, it being, you know, being somebody that, you know, that interviews people and where, where it's like your audience, you know, your audience, they, as far as fly fishing, like fly anglers, they just love information. We kind of live in that era, right. Where it's like, we have a ton of information, we have access to a ton of information and it's almost like we can't get enough of it. It's like, you know, how many, you know, how many ways can we talk about, you know, tying this variant of this fly and, you know, how many, you know, how many ways can we talk about, you know, the stop points between, you know, between kind of our, the, the plane of our cast and, you know, but we do, we'll talk about it for hours and hours and hours and days and days on end. Right. And, and so, so we just love that. It was kind of like, it reminds me a little bit of kind of Christmas time in bunk beds with my brother, where, where it was like, as kids, it was like, you know, we could, we could talk for an hour about who was going to get up first Christmas morning to make sure that, you know that the other person was woken up. We only need to say that once, but, but boy, it seemed like we would talk about it for half an hour, 45 minutes before we fell asleep. And I think the same is with fly fishing too, right? Where we can just, you know, you can talk about, you know, just everything into, you know, to kind of like, and, and never get really tired of it. Right. Like we, where you always feel like there's always kind of one more tactic or one more, like, you know, if you just know this little, one more little thing that can make all the difference in this scenario. Right. So we kind of feel that too, which is, yeah, that's kind of what the magazine does is we wanted to, you know, we kind of wanted to find the best of the best in the industry and give them a platform to connect with people that wanted to learn stuff. And so, yeah, so that's what we did. And it kind of branched out into a whole bunch of different areas. So we, you know, we have our print magazine. We have a TV show as well that was put on hiatus because of COVID, but that's going to be starting back up. And then we also have, we're kind of connected in a way too, in an intricate way, but not directly with IF4, which is the International Fly Fishing Film Festival as well. So yeah, it's a cool thing to be a part of. Yeah, it's a very, very cool thing to be a part of. And so yeah, founding editor, well, what does that mean? It just means that I was there right from the inception. I still, you know, I'll still take part in certain planning meetings and making sure that, you know, that certain content is there. But it's definitely a little bit more of an arm's length now where I, you know, I write for them and I do some film work for them. But I'm not as involved as I kind of was over the last number of years. So, yeah.
Katie
Now, is Fly Fusion still like mostly an instructional magazine? Or is it kind of morphed into a combination of that and like stories and things? Or like where is it at today compared to where it started?
Derek
Yeah, no, we're still pretty pure to that. Like we're still pretty pure to the instructional part. Although it's like my column definitely isn't instruction. So I write a column called Streamlines right up at the front end of the magazine. And it's more like it's more kind of like what we're talking about in our conversation. Like, you know, where it's like. to steal fish from your people. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I love, I love stuff like that. Like I got, you know, I got, I got harassed by a, by a lady on the very same day that I got COVID. Like I was just coming off the river and I was leaving the river because I was getting the chills because I was getting a fever and, and coming off the river, I like, I ran into this lady who was really upset with where I parked. And, and I was like, I looked and it was like, it was just kind of like where everybody parks to walk into that, like to that spot. And I'm like, anyway, she, she really went off on me. And what was her problem with it?
Katie
Like, what were you doing to harm her?
Derek
Well, no, she, she just, she didn't like that. She actually didn't like, it seemed like she didn't like that, that kind of people. And when I say people, I'm talking about like fly anglers and dog walkers and hikers and like everybody kind of park at the end of this road. And there's a number of properties at the end of the road. You kind of, you know, you, you, you stay, you stay away from driveways and such. Um, but she, I don't know if she just got to a point where she, you know, there's just too many people that park there. I don't know. Anyways. So, so she tried to be nice. She tried to, but you could tell she was really trying. And she was like, she was like, you know, I, she said something about, I don't know kind of how you people do it, where you're from, but out here we don't do it the same way. And I was kind of like, Oh, like I'm from like 15 minutes down the road. Like, I don't know, Is there a big difference here? I don't know. I didn't say that. I was because I'm not I'm very much not a confrontational person. So I didn't say that. I was just like, Oh, okay. Yeah, no, I'll, I'll definitely I'll find somewhere somewhere else to park your next time type thing, just to kind of pacify the situation, because I felt like it was like, anyway, so so she seemed to be okay with that. And then as she's walking away, she, she's like, she's saying loud enough for me to hear, you know, stupid people, she started saying like stupid people from the city and you know effing this and that effing guy and so she's saying that loud enough for me to hear and I was just like I went I said excuse me ma'am I said I said I said you don't have to be passive aggressive I said I said okay and and oh that like that sent her off right like that was just like like she picked up on the passive aggressive part and she's like well I'll just be aggressive and then she just started like everything was f this and you're the
Katie
effing problem with the world today type thing man. so but that’s, yeah it was intense it was like yeah to be to be Karen and COVID all in the same day you know what maybe maybe she got COVID from you maybe well maybe she got a little bit too close anyway so so which is funny because because like my article I would never like I would never just write about that But then on that same river, like a year before, I had the most odd encounter with some guy in a gi, like he was in some type of a karate get up.
Katie
Okay.
Derek
And he came. Yeah. And yeah. And he was like across the river from me. And he was yelling at me. He was like yelling something. I couldn't even hear what he was saying, but he's like yelling and then going into some type of like karate stance on me. And, and I was just like, I'm like, I really don't like, you know, this is why I don't like to be around people when I'm fishing. It's not and I'm not confrontational at all. Like, like, this is like, you know, I kind of like run away from confrontation anyway. So, so I have no clue what he's doing. But like, like the combination of those two, right, where it's like somebody like myself, who, like, I'm kind of like, you know, personality wise, I would say like, I'm like an Enneagram nine, which is like a peacekeeper, right? Like, I love, I love just like making everybody happy. I love happiness. and people and to like run into two people like that just in the last year or year or two of my life I'm like I'm like man I gotta go farther away fishing like I need to like like much farther because because I don't know like like as fun as it is to run into some guy in like this green gi who's like yelling at you and looks like he wants to like take you down and looks like he likely could because of his karate experience. I don't I can't remember the color of belt that he was wearing. But still, I don't want to get mixed up with some guy in some gi just because I'm like standing in a river fishing.
Katie
But I hope your article name was some guy in some gi.
Derek
Right? Oh, man, how did I even get here? What did I what was I talking about?
Katie
I think I asked if your magazine was instructional.
Derek
Oh, yeah. Instructionally, I that'll teach you for next time. And that's how we're instructional. I just start telling stories, right? And then it's like, oh, I won't ask that question next time. Just cross that out.
Katie
This reminds me, it's not super my story to tell, but I'll just give you the brief details. This reminds me of my friend, John, who was on the podcast a while back. He said he was fishing just like 15 minutes from where I live. And he was kind of creeping through some tall weeds to get to the river. and when he got to it, he opened the grass up and there was just a naked guy standing on a rock in the middle of the river doing yoga poses. It just reminded me of that when you said, this guy in this gi, I'm just like, there's a lot of people doing weird Tai Chi-related things out on the river where they think no one is.
Derek
Right? Yeah, it's like, put on some clothes. Like, yeah, what would you rather, right? There's a what would you rather right there. Some guy in some gi willing to open up a can on you or like just opening, like coming through some bushes and there's like some naked person doing yoga and you're just like, okay.
Katie
Right, the pacifist who's naked.
Derek
I'm just trying to fish here, right?
Katie
Or the guy or the possibly aggressive guy, but it's fully clothed.
Derek
What would you take? You have to take one.
Katie
What would you take?
Derek
Oh my word. I'm going to go with, I'm going to go with the guy in the gi because I would not want to see that guy in the gi naked. Like if that was him, I just wouldn't want to see him make it.
Katie
Well, this took quite a turn.
Derek
Oh, my goodness. Did it ever. Wow. Like how? Yeah. Why in the world is he out in nature in a gi anyways? Isn't a gi something that like, don't you go to the dojo or something like that? I don't know what I'm talking about right now.
Katie
I mean, I'm sure there's a reason.
Derek
I think that's where you end up. I'm sure in his mind it was perfectly logical. Yeah.
Katie
Well, you got to appreciate the confidence at least.
Derek
Yes, that's right. That's right. That's right. So yes, we are instructional primarily.
Katie
Great. Now that we've got to ask that question. Next question. So bring it back to your novel. Was this your first work of fiction then?
Derek
It is. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I've written one since then as well, but it hasn't been published yet. And I'm just kind of, I'm just kind of at a stage where I have, I have some very trusted people that I work with that, that I get them to go through and do edits on it. And so, so that's the stage of that one. But yeah, no, this is my first work of fiction. And I just absolutely loved it, Katie. Like, like, seriously, it was like the freedom and being able to write a story. And this is, I find this kind of cool, right? Is that, you know, is that, you know, fiction, fiction is essentially, you know, if, I mean, if you're like, if you're kind of one of those people who was like, you know, fiction, well, that's just not a real story. Well, it is, it's not a real story. Um, but it's like, but there are some parts of it that kind of land me, land me closer to like certain realities and certain truths about myself where I'm like, that, that was really cool. Like being able to be part of that process. Um, now that said, there are, you know, there are definitely like portions of the story that are, that are like based on kind of like, you know, things that I did growing up and, yeah, just people that I ran into growing up. So yeah, so there's portions of the story that are very much like based on, I would say that they're based on, like, and some of them are very loosely based on, but they're kind of kernels, right? The real story would be like a kernel, but I've kind of, you know, taken it and kind of just allowed it to, you know, be part of the art form and be part of storytelling. And I like, that's one of my favorite things actually in life is, you know, if I could get paid just to sit around a fire and tell stories, man, that would be a dream for me.
Katie
So I guess we should mention the name of the book is Last Summer on the Stage. And I don't want to go too deep because I read the book and I don't want to go too deeply into summarizing it for you because I don't know what, I'll say that the ending is a bit of a twist. So how would you describe it? Like if you were to kind of give the plot to people, what would you say it's about? Do you have an elevator pitch for it or something like that? Because I don't want to give away too much by telling people what happened.
Derek
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I know I should have an elevator pitch for it. Nothing that I say though kind of lasts for 20 seconds.
Katie
That's fair. You could do like, pretend you're on an elevator that broke down.
Derek
Yeah, yeah. I feel bad that people, for people to get trapped in an elevator with me because I'm like, because I am willing to talk.
Katie
The door's not opening.
Derek
Yeah. It's like, yeah, get me out of here. Right. Kind of that, that office, that office moment where, where what's her name gets trapped in an elevator with Dwight. Anyways. Okay. Yeah. So elevator pitch for the book. It's, it's essentially about, it's about a young man named Ryan. He's the main character who grows up fly fishing. And he's kind of in his last year in the hometown. He grew up in kind of small hometown or small town Rockies. And it's his last year kind of fly fishing the streams that kind of nurtured him before he heads off to university. And so he's trying to make the best of his last summer. Because and because he's he's because he's young and because he doesn't have any life experience, he kind of thinks that that this kind of might be the last of his summers that where he gets to kind of fish the streams that that he just absolutely loves fishing. And so, so yeah, so it's just the story is about him making the most of that summer and, and kind of some of the people that he that he runs across in that summer, like people that become very, very influential and very meaningful to Ryan in different ways. And so like, like one of the favorite, one of my favorite characters in the novel is Jack. And Jack is just a, he's just an old, like an old kind of recluse who lives in a cabin out in the middle of nowhere. And he lives there because he's kind of been, you know, he just wants to be away from people. He doesn't want to be anywhere near people. And so one of my favorite stories kind of that happens within the novel is between Ryan and Jack, where they, where they get to know each other. And, and essentially in that relationship, Jack's character kind of, there's a bit of a redemption story with Jack's character where, where, you know, he, he kind of misses out on a lot of his life because of certain things that have happened to him. And yet his story in the end is very much, it becomes very, very meaningful. And I love that. Um, so yeah, so that's, and, and it's like for, for, you know, I've had some different feedback on it and for people that you know, people that love fly fishing, there's lots of fly fishing in it, you know, the places that I, that I describe and, you know, what, what Ryan ends up doing, there's a lot of, you know, the, the novel essentially kind of follows a hatch chart through the Rockies, right. Where Ryan knows kind of at different points in the summer, kind of where summer is at, right. Like when it gets to kind of fishing, you know, fishing hoppers in August, he knows that, that, you know, that's one of his favorite times a year, but he also knows that that summer is kind of coming to an end for it's hopper time. Right. So, so that, yeah, it kind of follows that. And, and it's, and then for people that, for people that have never fly fished before, like I've had some people pick up the novel and because they've heard kind of through a friend or something, oh, you should, you know, you should read, should read Derek's novel type thing. And so, so I've had people like that that have come and gone, you know, I've never fly fished before, but oh man, I really want to fly fish now. And I'm like, oh man, that just warms my heart. Right. because it's like, because it's like there must be something in there that kind of like connected with somebody. And I think that when that happens for somebody like, you know, my, myself, who's, you know, who's, you know, who writes, that's kind of one of my artistic or creative forms. When that happens, I just feel like, I feel like, wow, I've really connected with somebody. And that's like, that to me is like, that's like gold, right? Like, I just love that when that happens. So, yeah. So that's, that's kind of my elevator pitch novel. I love the, there's, there's parallel plots in it. And so what you're referring to, Katie, is the parallel plot. So you kind of think that, like one of the plots in it seems, it seems like, like, I think it starts out quite innocuous, meaning like it starts out as kind of like, you know, not really all that important, but then that plot ends up becoming very, very important to the rest of the novel. So, so that, so that's in there too. And that's, I think that's so cool that you've read the novel Katie like I'm like I'm just like over the moon right now about the fact that you've actually like yeah that you read it so that's really cool
Katie
I don't want to use the word slow because that's that's not, it doesn't sound like a complimentary word but like the first half of the book I like moves kind of slowly like you're just kind of attending and see what's going on like the two different storylines that you're talking about and then I feel like in the last like two chapters it it ramps up so much and I usually read before bed like I'll i'll read for anywhere between five and 20 minutes before bed so I'm often reading like a couple pages maybe a chapter and I'll put it down and I i picked up your book probably three chapters from the end one night and then I just finished the whole thing because suddenly it ramped up and I was like wait what wait what every every time I turned the page I was like no way and all of the I guess all I can say is that all of the plots end up coming together in a really nice way at the end where suddenly things just start rolling and you like you can't put it down once you cross that threshold into like where you're like, wait a minute. As soon as you hit that point, you can't really like put it down after that point.
Derek
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that like what a great way to explain it. Actually, I should have you do the elevator pitch for me. That was great. That was very good.
Katie
Now you've got two people in the elevator just talking to you while it's broken down.
Derek
That's right. Yeah, that's right. But it's like, you know, I think that, you know, and I've written about this before, but, you know, where I compare kind of like our lives and how connected people's lives are and how similar it is actually to like the way that rivers coalesce and the way that they come together. Right. And I think that that in the in the novel that was kind of like, you know, that's kind of one of the things that happens is like, you know, these plots, they essentially act like rivers and where they eventually join. They eventually come together and it's like, oh, yeah, well, of course they come together like that. Of course, they flow in that direction because that's kind of how people's lives flow. And then I'm a sucker too for happy endings. And I'm very much a sucker for that. I'm an optimist. I'm such an optimist. And I love when there's characters, whether they be a movie character or a character in a novel or whatever. I love characters that are like really good, like that, that, you know, that, that things are going to work out for them because, you know, just because they're the characters written that way. Right. And you, you're as a reader or as a viewer, you're like, you're pulling for that character and you know that it would be, it would be reckless of the, the author or the, you know, or the director of the movie or whatever to, to not, to not end it in a way that's like, that, that kind of like has some resolution for a character that you kind of fall in love with. And, and so, so I do that with some of my characters too, right. Where, where it's like, you know, you want, you want good and right. Like there's enough, there's kind of enough crap and garbage out there. And I'm not talking about like, like quality of writing. I'm just talking about like, like there's enough difficult stories out there and we're, we're drawn like as human beings, I don't necessarily know why, but we're drawn to difficult stories. And then we're also not as much, but when it happens, we love inspirational stories too, right? Like we love stories that work out in the end because we all hope, I think in a way we all hope that our lives will work out in the end too. Do you know what I mean? Oh yeah. Like where it's like, it's like we, you know, we don't necessarily know kind of why this happened or why that happened. Or, you know, sometimes, sometimes life deals like just the crappiest deck for us. Right. And we, boy, do we ever hope that, you know, that someday that, that that'll be useful, either useful in some way, or that we'll be overcomers and we'll overcome that kind of difficulty in some way. And I find that through fiction, that that's kind of my natural, My natural bent is that I want for life to work out good and well and right, even though I know that it doesn't a lot of the time. But why not in fiction? Why not kind of have that? And because we're attracted to that, even though we realize that sometimes it's not realistic, right?
Katie
That's the point of fiction is that you can craft whatever story you want.
Derek
That's exactly it. That is a hundred percent exactly it is that we get to do that. Right. So, yeah. So I, I don't know. That was like, I would say in the last, like, probably four years that that's been like one of my highlights, I would say is being able to finish that novel. I there, the story was, you know, the story has been bouncing around in my head for probably 10 years. And, and I just, you know, I always felt like there was somebody else better to write that story than me. But then I got to a just like, man, like bird, come on, man. You're like, you're kind of halfway through your life. And, and there's a reason that that story, why it just keeps bouncing around in your head, you better do something with it. And I think that that's like, you know, that's part of like who we are as, as human beings as part of our common humanity that, that, you know, if when our dreams kind of, when our dreams kind of die, that there's a portion of us that dies as well. And, and so if we can, you know, if we can do stuff to kind of capitalize on, you know, recognizing that, that it's those little things, right. It's the little stories that, you know, that bounce around in our heads, or it's that, you know, it's going in, you know, going on this holiday to this place where, you know, we've been dreaming about that for four years or whatever, and kind of going experiencing that, you know, those are, those are like little things that, that, that are kind of part of, you know, part of who we are as human beings that, you know, that allow us to, that allow us to breathe, right. They allow us to, to become more human in, in a very positive way. And if we kind of let those things, if we let those things evaporate, then that's all they do. They just evaporate and then they're gone. And, and, and that, that's, that's difficult. That's always been difficult for me to hold on to that knowledge is because there's lots of stuff where I've kind of let evaporate right in my life. And I'm sure that we all do that, but, but boy, yeah, you kind of have to, you kind of have to fight too. Right. And not to get all philosophical, but, but you do, you kind of have to fight for, even for the joys in life too. Right. You have to, you know, I think that we often think that, you know, all this stuff will just kind of just kind of come along and, you know, it'll be kind of, you know, everything will be kind of like just great. But I think too, even for the joys and for the things that are dreams, that are our dreams, we really have to fight for those and work for those too. And I think that in that fighting and that working, we work ourselves out in some way. We figure ourselves out in some way that we didn't understand before. And hopefully it kind of develops kind of a dimension of us that makes a little bit more sense, right?
Katie
Yeah. Almost being able to look at yourself from like a third party perspective and like put things into perspective.
Derek
Exactly. Yeah, no, exactly. Right. So I used to have this teacher who, his name was Mr. Baines. He was an interesting fellow, but he used to do like little lessons like that for us. This is probably in grade five. I don't know. But he used to like tell us to bring things like rocks to school, right? We'd go out and find a rock and he'd put it in this rock polisher and just kind of like, like he'd put it in there and then he'd like take all the rocks out And we would, you know, the rocks are barely recognizable because they'd been grinding up against each other, but they were very beautiful. And then you do this little, like this little life lesson for us. And my goodness, it's like, I remember that stuff. And probably because, probably because that's how my mind worked, even when I was a kid. Right. Like, even though I wouldn't have recognized that, I'm like, Hey, I can hold onto that. Like I, I get, I kind of get that right. Where, where it's like, you know, we go through life and, and we either like, we either become completely broken or we get polished one of the two.
Katie
Well, hopefully you're one of the polished ones. Or maybe a bit of both.
Derek
Maybe a bit of both, yeah.
Katie
I think there's definitely something to what you're saying about kind of having an optimistic view. And I think we went through a phase in the past 10 years or so of shifting away from kind of those happy endings and doing some, you know, I think just trying to think outside the box. And you get things like Game of Thrones, which is, you know, an amazing story in itself. But, you know, everyone dies. You can't get attached to somebody because they're not going to be around much longer. And I think, I don't know if I heard this somewhere, but I think during the pandemic, things like rom-coms made like a resurgence because people were just like grasping for some sort of like comfort and hope. And even if you're like, yeah, rom-coms aren't necessarily the most, I don't know, deep or philosophical or anything like that. There's just some sort of comfort in knowing that it's all going to work out because they always all work out. Like that's kind of the whole point of the genre. And people kind of like went back to wanting these like cheesy rom-coms because they just wanted that good feeling that things are going to work out. And I totally understand that. It's kind of like nostalgia. Just, you know, having that warm, fuzzy feeling when everything comes together as it should. I think there's definitely something to that. And I think it's making a resurgence.
Derek
Well put. I think that was very well put, Katie. is like we're, you know, we did, we, we kind of went through, like, I think culturally, we kind of went through like a real time of like kind of falling in love or falling in love is the wrong, the wrong word, but like, we became very fascinated with kind of like the Walter White character, right. The, you know, the teacher who, you know, who ends up kind of selling meth. Right. And, and we kind of like, we, we kind of ended up kind of, going, oh yeah, life is really like it's really, really complex and sometimes you know sometimes it's good people who do really bad things and you know we kind of ended up there but then there's something comforting too about kind like you know kind of the Lord of the Rings stories as well where it' s like you know there is good and there's evil and there's like you know and how do you how do you kind of fit in and how do you grapple with like you know huge kind of like journeys and kind of like overcoming things and like within that context, there's something, there's something very comforting is the wrong word, but there's something very kind of like maybe it is comforting. There's something comforting about that too, right? Where sometimes, you know, sometimes there is just kind of good and evil and, you know, and that dichotomy, sometimes we can, you know, we can operate within that structure too. But, but I like what you said too about rom-coms because, there's that. There's a lot in life and a rom-com or something like that. There's a lot in life where we go, oh, there was a lot of garbage or difficulty that happened, but in the end there was love. I think that that construct of love as human beings, there's a lot that that makes more there's a lot in our lives that kind of like, you know, the fact that love could be there or that we could be loved as a result of something where, boy, are we willing to go kind of not just the extra mile, but boy, we're willing to endure a lot and go through a lot because that might be a possibility, right? Because maybe at the very kind of core or fabric of life, you know, maybe that that's kind of right there. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And so, so yeah. So yeah. So here we are talking about fly fishing and, and then also we're solving all the problems of life as well. It's true.
Katie
I mean, we really, we really came full circle here. I had to say this might be one of the most wide ranging episodes I've done. Everything from fly fishing is a part of your soul to naked man on a rock doing yoga. It's really come around the whole way.
Derek
Yeah, thanks for going on the elevator with me. I appreciate that.
Katie
Well, Derek, I am going to have to let you get going because I've got hungry trick-or-treaters coming my way shortly. But I just want to give you a chance to tell people where they can find you, plug your book again. If anyone wants to read it, where can they find your book and purchase it?
Derek
Yeah, for sure. So, so you can find me at like, I'm on Instagram at Derek R. Bird. You can also, you can also look me up in the magazine if you, you know, if anybody ever wants to email me or whatever. My contact information is found at flyfusionmag.com. You can find me there. And if you do want to go out and buy a copy of my book, I would absolutely love that. And you can find that either at the Fly Fusion store at flyfusionmag.com, or you can go on to like Amazon if you want to support Jeff Bezos, you can go on to Amazon and like throw some money his way and you'll find it there as well just by typing in last summer on the sage. So that's the name of it. So last summer on the sage and then my name, Derek Bird. And yeah, you'll find it there as well. So I do want to say thank you so much, Katie, for for hosting me. I really, really appreciate that. I love just from some of the stuff that I've listened to what you do. I just I love your conversational style. I think that that like you can tell that you're doing something that's awesome because because you're just like as I'm like, you know, this will just come through in voice likely. But, you know, as I'm kind of looking at you on the screen, you just have a huge smile on your face and you can just see that you're absolutely eating up kind of like the fact that you're that you're a podcaster and you're doing this and you do a good job of it. So so really just keep doing what you're doing. And because it's like, yeah, because you do a very, very good job at it.
Katie
I appreciate it. I think I've mentioned it before, but the whole reason this thing started was that if I can't be fishing, I could at least be talking about it. Like we talked about today, how you can read the same 10 trout tips over and over again, and you're still like, yeah, I got to read this, even though you know them all already. Right. Yeah. So yeah, it's just like, I mean, I just love talking about fishing and the people I talk to, you know, you could just, they just ooze that enthusiasm. So I really appreciate your kind words and right back at you. Like it's just, you can tell when someone is really passionate about what they do. And it's just fun to talk to people like that.
Derek
Yeah, for sure.
Katie
All right, Derek. Well, I will let you get going. Highly encourage anyone to come get your book. It's not a super long book. You could finish it pretty fast. And again, once you get to the last couple chapters, you won't be able to put it down. So I'm hoping a lot of people come your way and get your book.
Derek
Awesome. Thanks so much, Katie.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me, and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening, and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.

Note:

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Katie Kusold

Ep 88: The Last Summer on the Sage, with Derek Bird

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Ep 88: The Last Summer on the Sage, with Derek Bird

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Ep 89: Trout and the Creative Process, with Colton Wright

Ep 87: The Community of Fishing, with Jess Suvak

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