Ep 85: Fishing as a Performance-Enhancing Tool, with Ryan Estes
Ryan Estes has decades of fly fishing experience under his belt and has started focusing even more on mastering the craft and fine-tuning his skills. He also views fly fishing as a performance-enhancing tool, taking lessons he has learned on the water and applying them to his career, relationships, and spiritual discipline. In this episode, we talk about some ways fishing can improve other aspects of your life, lessons we have learned over the years, how fishing can bring friends closer together, and why the heck someone would go paddleboarding without a rod.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 85 with Ryan Estes on fishing as a performance enhancing tool. I just love to get a background on my guests. So I'd love to hear how you got your start in fishing and specifically fly fishing.
Ryan
You bet. Katie, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I think it's a great show, and I'm really excited for this conversation. So I'm from Colorado. I'm actually from Denver, which is kind of shocking to most people. I talk to people in Denver, and they're like, where are you from? I'm like, I'm from here. They're like, no, no, but where are you from? I'm like, no, I'm from Denver. I was born here. So I'm in a bit of an anomaly. I don't know if you've noticed, but there's quite a few fishermen and fisherwomen in Colorado now. So I grew up fishing with my dad, you know, he brought me into it with, you know, salmon, eggs and worms and just sitting on the bank of the lake. And kind of as a young teenager, kind of really got into fly fishing. So I've been fishing about 30 years and feeling pretty good about where I'm at right now. It's been a great season. So, you know, largely I am kind of a blue lining, alpine lake kind of guy. As much as I love the river, my son prefers the alpine lake. So that's where we go.
Katie
Do you pretty much exclusively fly fish at this point? Or do you still pick up the spin rod now and then?
Ryan
Oh, yeah. Every now and again, you got to get in there with some Panther Martins, you know. But I certainly prefer fly fishing. But you know, if I it depends, you know, if I'm traveling, get in the ocean, and you got to put some bait on there, we'll do that.
Katie
pretty similar to me then like, if I'm fishing for something that fly fishing isn't really suitable for, I'll definitely pick up a spin rod. But if the option's there to throw a fly, I'll usually choose that. It sounds like you're kind of in the same boat. Absolutely. And it's interesting how like, there's such a tribal division between fishing styles.
Ryan
So I like to kind of challenge that as much as I can, at least to myself. I mean, you know, a lot of my buddies give me a hard time for fly fishing because it seems just so fancy. There's a lot of expensive gear and there's a certain aesthetic to all of the Tacomas with their rod vaults and everything. And I think it's cool. I'm into that. But I'm certainly not snobbish in any way by any particular style. I mean, if you're fishing for crawdads with a piece of Velveeta cheese, that sounds like fun to me.
Katie
Sure. Now, is that something that you, I wouldn't say work toward it as some sort of mission, but I feel like personally, like I've got a lot of friends who fish, you know, other ways. I just went out with a friend the other day and he took me catfishing and we had a great time. And we were discussing kind of that uppity nature of fly fishing. You go see people and they've clearly spent like thousands of dollars on their clothes just to go out and stand in a river, you know, as though that's going to help you catch a fish. Is that something that you've kind of tried to tear down that perception that fly fishermen are somehow like more uppity or look down on other other anglers like I feel like this is something that we need to move toward where you know I can respect the way you do it you can respect the way I do it and I've been meeting more people who are kind of trying to bridge that gap and be like look we're all out here for the same reasons do you have any like thoughts on that
Ryan
yeah absolutely I think it's important because you know we're all sportsmen and we all enjoy the great outdoors you know I don't think there actually vision and, and on the river or on the lake or anything else, everyone's having a good time. But of course, online, everything gets polarized and the way we're kind of like segmented and categorized so that they can market to us and sell to us, you know, is, is a bit of that. I think a lot of that is kind of exaggerated online, but I think I'm also in kind of a different place because I'm not necessarily falling into one particular bubble. You know, you see the same thing in hunting circles as well. You know, you got like, you know, the, the, the elk kind of, public elk hunters are like, kind of have a thing about, you know, water bird hunters and they're, you know, people that are in tree stands, everyone has their opinions. And like, there's definitely can be division, which is great because there's some really hilarious jokes oftentimes that come out of that when people can kind of openly trash each other. But I think if it's done in a good spirit, it's okay. But one thing I probably think of a detriment for the sport is if fly fishing kind of gets this aristocratic kind of perception, it might limit people from joining the sport. So that I feel like is too bad because definitely there isn't a big bar of entry. I mean, give me a stick and a leader and I'm going to do some damage on the river. I Along these lines, my wife has a family cabin on the Gallatin in Montana, which we're going to go to in a couple of weeks. I'm really excited about. But it's just this wonderful water. And you have a lot of fly fishermen, particularly right in front of the cabin. It's kind of a hot spot for guides to bring out total rookies, you know. So same kind of thing. You see some wealthy folks out there, you know, just dressed to the nines in all your finest Patagonia. And they're just struggling to catch a fish all day. And I'll be out there with a tenkara, you know, 10 feet in front of them, just pulling fish out all day with my bare feet dangling in the water or whatever. You know, so while it does have kind of a stigma, fly fishing in particular, I hope people can have some of those notions challenged because really it's just about getting out there and getting wet, you know.
Katie
Absolutely. Absolutely. I like what you mentioned about not really having much of a barrier to entry. I know it's hard to, if you've never picked up a fly rod before, to understand what you're doing in the cast and everything can be difficult. But I feel like with all the resources today, it is possible to teach yourself to fish. And if you go for certain fish, if you go for panfish or stocked trout or whatever, you don't have to be an expert. Don't take yourself to the hardest place to catch fish and expect to catch fish your first time out. But I think that that notion is challenged more these days that it takes a ton of money and a ton of experience to go catch a fish. Like, you know, you need a rod, a reel, some line and a fly and a place where fish are willing to bite. And, you know, you can go out there and have a pretty horrible cast and have no expensive gear whatsoever and still come out of there with a bunch of fish. So I think that's something that needs to be, I guess, advertised a little bit more. Unfortunately, the companies that want to sell you things aren't going to advertise that. But I think just as anglers, we need to kind of make that known to people who want to pick it up because it's like it's not, there is a barrier to entry, but it's not as big as a lot of people think.
Ryan
I totally agree. And I would encourage people not to spend money, especially if you're new. All this fly fishing stuff is very delicate. You are definitely going to break it. And if you step on a thousand dollar rod, boy, that's a bad day. You know, I mean, I've been fishing with my kids for so long and my son, he's 13 now. He's great fisherman. But, you know, I mean, when you got kids, even even when he at his level, it's like, we're not breaking the bank on your gear, buddy. Right. So a lot, you know, it's it's the skill, you know, and even that component, you know, it definitely gets exaggerated. You know, a river runs through it, that the perfect cast is like some kind of lifetime achievement. But anybody who's out there with any amount of time can really savor that one perfect cast that fish strikes immediately, but that's one out of a thousand. It's just a matter of reps. Get out there, you know, put it in a position you think you're going to be successful. Like you said, there's so many YouTube tutorials out there that, you know, you can have a bad cast and catch a fish. It's, while I would never, understate the poetry of the sport, but it can be, if that's a barrier of entry, don't let it be. Get out there and struggle with it.
Katie
Right. You can, you can separate the two things, the catching of the fish and the working on your I mean, we all like having a good cast. We all like that satisfaction of seeing it lay down nicely. But I've also had my line pile up in a pile on the water and still catch a fish. And it's like, you know, I could appreciate that I caught that fish and also still try to work toward a good cast while recognizing that that's not absolutely crucial every single time I go out. Like there are times it matters and there's times it doesn't. And you can have both of those things at the same time or separately. I wanted to ask you, since you live in Colorado and have since you were born, Like, how have you seen it change? I guess particularly, you know, it sounds like you do a lot of blue lining in Alpine lakes, whereas I think we'd both recognize that there's a couple big rivers in Colorado that get a lot of traffic. How have you seen that dynamic change? Like, has it gotten really noticeably more crowded? You know, have you had to switch where you're going because of that or anything? Like, just like, how has that culture changed since you've started fishing here?
Ryan
Yeah, I mean, it's like a fly fishing renaissance, right? I mean, it's like extraordinarily booming in popularity. So yeah, definitely, you know, change the way that I fish, you know, the dream stream, forget about it. Deckers, forget about it. Like, I know those are still great waters. And I'm glad that folks can go there and fish them, but just not for me. As much as I can, I'm trying not to be like the old man on the front yard, like get off my grass. So I want to be happy that everybody's out there doing it, but it's definitely changed my habits. I think the other thing is particularly into remote spaces, which is great because you see less traffic. But one thing that's confusing to me is like the folks with the stand-up paddle boards out there in the middle of this lake just seem to be floating and standing there, which I suppose they're deriving some kind of like enjoyment from that. But that's been kind of confusing. I'm like, why wouldn't you just also have a little rod right there with you? Otherwise, you're just kind of floating around. So, you know, that's been an interesting trend, which I'm sure at some point people will be tired of carrying those paddle boards up the trail to just stand in the water. But, you know, I think the other thing is kind of like, you know, the world really opening up or Colorado really opening up from the internet, because, you know, 30 years ago, it's like, I went to the places that my dad went to, and my dad went to the places that his brother showed me, you know, so we had like these six or seven spots we'd go to. And I felt like, oh, that's where the fishing places are, you know, so now the resources, which is also kind of controversial of being able to spot and see where, where people are having success and like being able to change it up. One thing I really like about that is, is that it gives you a certain confidence to go to some new waters and try some stuff out, you know, cause we all got our spots where you're like, boy, I had a wonderful fish over there. So you kind of want to go back there. But if it starts to be popular, you know, it's like, okay, well, let's see how deep we can go. And I think that also kind of was impetus to kind of get into kind of the blue lining stuff where, you know, these high alpine reservoirs become kind of a physical challenge to get there. So, you know, catching six inch brookies still feels fantastic because you kind of earned it, you know?
Katie
Yeah, definitely. No, I totally agree with that. I've always said I'd rather work hard on the getting to somewhere and then have really easy fishing once I'm there. Like, I don't want to drive to a spot and have really hard fishing. Like, that doesn't sound very fun. But putting in some hard, like, some sweat equity and then getting easy fishing on six-inch brook trout, like, I'll do that all day long.
Ryan
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it comes from my son, too. He'd say, Dad, these highway rivers, we never catch anything on these highway rivers. You know, it's like he he felt like he needed to earn it just pulling over the shoulder and getting into the water he's like no this doesn't this doesn't feel right to him you know and you know I think also like getting out there's something to that you know because I i think that what is exciting to me about about fishing particularly I think now as I'm really trying to work towards mastery is that when you get into fishing there's this high delta of competence that you achieve very quickly You go from like, this is terrible. This hopper is in the shrub behind me every single cast to like I'm getting it on the water to I'm catching fish. And all that happens very quickly. If you're lucky enough to get out a lot in a season, it might happen in one year where you can like have a great day every time you're going out. But the delta between like just basic competence and mastery in fishing, it's subjective, but also it's a lot harder. And so I've been really investigating what I think that is, what is the components of that mastery. And one of it to me is kind of the stillness in silence that comes from being a little bit deeper in, you know, not having to compete for elbow room, kind of picking up on the energy and the vibration of the place that you are and having that inform the way that you're presenting your patterns or anything like that. So definitely for what I'm looking for out of fishing, the component of like remoteness and a little bit more wilderness is particularly important.
Katie
That's a really interesting thought. And I wonder if like part of that has to do with, I feel like if I'm out with other people, like strangers, let's say, you know, there's people on the river. I'm not like watching them or paying a lot of attention, but you're kind of always aware that someone's near you. And I feel like you kind of, you like you watch them. You see if they're catching fish, you watch their cast, and you're kind of like distracted by the fact that there's people around you. You got to make sure you're not, you know, high holing them or anything. But when you're just out there by yourself, it's nothing other than you just observing and making changes to what you're doing to like match what you're seeing. You know, hey, this bug is behaving this way. Let me try to put on this fly or the fish are way down deep. Let me try to get deeper. There's nothing. There's no other human distraction unless you're with your friends. But at that point, you might be, you know, working together or sharing information. But I do think that's kind of a better way to get in touch with, you know, your, like you said, your fishing mastery, your level of fishing. Like you have to take those observations in without that, that external stimulus of other anglers just being near you, which is always just kind of a constant like nagging in the back of your head.
Ryan
Yeah, you know, and maybe because we get into the sport because we're kind of romantics about nature. And so you want to kind of have this feeling of isolation. So it spoils it when you see somebody else. Right. But, you know, usually it's nice to like if they're crossing paths with you, like, hey, man, what's going on? How's your day? You know, it can be nice as well. But you're right. There is kind of a there's obviously a tension with more people. And once it's past one or two, if there's a person in front of you, a person behind you at that point, And if there's anything more than that, then I'm pretty much going to tap out, you know, or at least just kind of reel it in and hang out for a while, which is cool too, you know? So yeah, you know, Colorado, the, the, the, just the outdoor, you know, lifestyle here is like, is, is kind of like a cliche at this point, you know, that there's, If you look up Coloradan in the dictionary, there's, you know, a picture of a guy with a husky, a, you know, Subaru Outback, a flannel shirt, an IPA and a beard. And so basically me, you know, it's a meme at this point. So, you know, it comes with certain good attributes and certain challenges, you know, because it's not just fishing either. It's the paddle boards. It's the mountain biking. It's the whole shebang. You know, folks are out there and particularly I think during COVID is where you saw a really rise, you know, that people realize like how great it was to work from home and be able to zip out of the office early on a Friday and beat that I-70 traffic.
Katie
Definitely. So I wanted to ask you because what you said about the paddle boarding made me think of a conversation I just had with my friend Allie. We just did a backpacking trip and we were talking about how we like to hike. I like hiking. I go hiking with various friends who fish and don't fish. And we do just go for hikes sometimes. But I am so much more inclined to hike when I've got something at the end to do. Not just somebody to peak, not just being at the end, but arriving and then I'm going to go fish or then I'm going to go hunt or then I'm going to go do whatever. hiking isn't the activity. It's like getting you to the activity. Um, and hiking also happens to be enjoyable, but I've had the same thought about paddleboarders where I'm like, you know, it seems like a good way to get out to some spots that you can't wade cause it's too deep. Um, and you know, fly fishing, sitting down in a boat can be hard cause of the cast. Uh, and I thought the same thing. I'm like, I, you know, if I had a paddleboard, I feel like I would use that as a means to go fishing. Are you the same way with like hiking where you like hiking, but there's gotta to be some sort of activity you're looking forward to at the end to like really make it more enjoyable?
Ryan
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Hiking, maybe it's just a competitive nature too. But like if I'm on a well-worn trail, you know, I'm going to check my watch. You know, now it becomes like I'm going to win this trail if there's nothing else to do. You know what I mean? And that's cool. And I love that in trail runners and stuff. You're like, I'm moving quickly. And look how fast I did this 14er and stuff. But objectively, I think it's kind of missing the point, at least with me. Like there, there's a certain amount of like, testing the vibe in nature. Like I'm not trying to like exert myself too much. And maybe that just comes from kind of stalking and hunting is that there's a way to kind of ease into an area where you're picking up cues. And that's really what I enjoy about being outside is like not necessarily hiking, but like meandering, wandering, you know, kind of discovering things is really what I'm looking to do. So if there is like, okay, you know what, seven and a half miles to get up to that lake, you know, so then you, I am going to be kind of like more narrow minded, but I do know that like at that point that I'm there, then I have this explore exploration. I have a kind of experience of the stillness and the silence and I can kind of acclimate to that environment as opposed to kind of what I just did, which was dominate the trail for seven and a half miles. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but, you know, I really have been trying to examine, like, what do I like about this? And maybe it's because a lot of things that I've been doing, I kind of gut check and like, I don't really like this, you know, even though I was doing it almost probably mechanically out of just habit or things that I wanted my kids to try. And like, I was doing all these things that it just wasn't it for me, you know? And I, I had kind of a moment, a year ago where I was like fishing and I was like, do I like this? Is this something I enjoy doing? You know? And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely, definitely really liked this. So that was exciting. Cause like losing some of the things you're, you don't know if you like to do them, it's kind of destabilizing. Um, but kind of under that examination, it was like, well, what do I like about this? What am I trying to get? And really, I think it is that kind of that conversation with stillness and silence. And like, particularly with with fishing is I feel like when you're really focused, you're having a great day, your gears all going smooth. And you can kind of notice the silence has like an extra presence. There's like something else there. That is just the tranquility of the thing is like this characteristic of the, of the experience that I really like, and that I actually end up really pursuing, you know, because it actually takes a bit of work to get there.
Katie
Maybe this is a good transition to I know you wanted to talk about fishing is kind of like a performance enhancing tool for your life, you know, like, what can you gain from fishing that allows you to be a better person in the rest of your life? And I feel like most anglers would inherently kind of understand that, you know, like, when I come back from a fishing trip, I feel like I'm a happier, less stressed person. I can, I can, you know, put in the work maybe this week, knowing that I can go fishing over the weekend. Like it's something to look forward to. There's all kinds of ways that I feel like having that release and that stress relief and that tranquility can kind of help you in the rest of your life. But I want to hear specifically like what you want to talk about. I know you mentioned like career relationships, spiritual practices, things like that. But how do you apply fishing to just being a better person in the other aspects of your life?
Ryan
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that particularly in our life, we're kind of all based around outcomes. You know what I mean? The experience of stillness in fishing is like, well, what are you going to get out of that? How do you make that a thing?
Katie
Like quantifying success.
Ryan
Yeah, totally. Like, what are you talking about this fishing, the silence thing? I think that there is objectively like things that come out of that that are outcomes that are positive, but also just the experience of that, I feel like is so good. You know, it actually just makes you feel better. So particularly with career is one thing I was thinking about the other day because I spent the whole day fishing and ended up catching one fish at the end of the day, which is beautiful, mature brown trout. It was gorgeous, but it was probably my best day, favorite day fishing of all time, only because just the way everything went. Everything was very smooth because I was prepared. I kind of went in with certain expectation of like, this is what I want to try. This is how it's going to go. I ended up taking this fish on, you know, I had a hopper to, Royal Wolf and then got it on a copper John, but I had kind of been working through my whole box all day and then slowly adding on and like being really good with everything. Everything just clicked that day. It was a beautiful day in the Canyon and I ended up catching a fish with just the cherry on top. And I left, you know? Um, but during that day I was, I was kind of, while I was, fishing, I was kind of being curious of like, why is it, why am I having such a good time? And I feel like it was because like bringing all this experience that I've had in like being prepared and being organized, being open to kind of the improvisation that goes, making the right decisions, which to me a lot of times means just hike in even further. Don't stop, hit that spot on the way back, you know? So like trusting my intuition, a lot of these things where I feel like career wise, I can bring the same kind of attention, you know, of preparation and orderliness in organization. So after I had that wonderful day, I kind of came and like cleaned my desk and took the documents off my desktop and like started seeing my workflow much like I see fishing. And this was actually an interesting moment where I feel like, OK, I'm starting to work towards mastery. And that's kind of a weird word because it sounds like it's kind of maybe there's an arrogance in that. I don't think it ever ends. But maybe the differentiation I see with mastery is that when you really are kind of deeply into a passion, let's say fishing, then you start to see the world as a metaphor for that thing. And I've experienced a couple of different times. You know, in a previous life, I was a musician and just being immersed in music and performing all the time that like everything you do starts to feel like music. Like if you're like, I'm going to go get some Cheetos as you're walking, you can kind of feel this harmony and this melody and this rhythm of going to eat Cheetos, you know, or in martial arts, you know, I trained jujitsu for a long time. So you start to see the world in a metaphor of jujitsu of like, oh, position and this is leverage and this is balance and like it all happens like that. So I was really excited to see that like my attention started going to like seeing work and aspects of, of fishing and like the components of fishing that, were helpful to me started influencing, my workspace. So, so to me, you know, I can see how the, the, the desire and the work towards, mastery and fishing can kind of spill over into other ways of the, of my work. Um, which is really exciting, you know, largely because then, you know, my poor team has to endure all these, you know, fishing analogies, you know, I think it drives them crazy, but like, I just see it. I'm like, oh, this is, this is how you tie the line. And they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Um, but I do think that like the components of fishing is probably unique to every single person. Um, but can be super helpful with, with your career, what you're trying, trying to do, You know, the other component of that in relationships is kind of what I was talking about stillness and having some time to reflect. But that's not necessarily rumination. You know, a lot of times, you know, particularly if I'm doing something exhaustive, let's say like we are trying to we're doing that seven miles on a nice clip to get to the lake. I find myself in physical activity running these kind of monotonous thing. there's more of a rumination. I'm more of like a, I'm thinking about scenarios that have happened and things like that, which is great. But my attention is not necessarily on the trail. It's rather I'm kind of ruminating on other things. Whereas if my blood isn't up and I'm not breathing hard and I'm on the river or I'm on the lake or the inlet or whatever, I'm hyper-focused on what's happening on the water so that the thoughts that arise aren't necessarily about the past or the future. But it's more of kind of like an experiential understanding of different relationships or it seems to be, at least for me, more of a feeling thing than kind of an intellectualized thought. So I found that to be like extraordinarily helpful in personal relationships. You know, whether that's with my kids, of course, or my wife or work relationships, I think that's been really helpful. Also, particularly with your close relationships, let's be honest, sometimes we all need a vacation from our family. So actually the separation of doing that thing solo can actually really improve your relationships, at least in my experience.
Katie
No, I agree. I think that there's, I mean, there's a reason that the phrase, you know, distance makes the heart grow fonder. It's like, if you're out and you know, you start to miss that person, you're looking forward, you're having fun now, but you're looking forward to getting home. And there's kind of like a, it's almost like a win-win at that point. You're happy to be where you are, but you're excited to be done so you can go home and see your family. Um, I wouldn't call it like an escape from them, but just kind of like a break to reflect and have some solo time and, and come back, you know, more appreciative than you went out.
Ryan
Yeah, absolutely. How about you? Do you go fishing with your partner?
Katie
Yeah, yeah, we do. I go fishing alone. I go fishing with friends and I go fishing with him. Probably about equally, all three. Because I like each for their own thing. Does your wife go with you?
Ryan
She does, but she doesn't fish.
Katie
Okay.
Ryan
But she's happy to be there. There's definitely spots that I'll go and I'll bring my wife. And I have one of those things. You know those big weird socks that you fill up with air and then it's like a sofa?
Katie
Yes, I have seen those.
Ryan
Essentially, you know what I'm saying? Like I bring that and I find a sunny spot and just set her up and she's just like, takes a nap. She loves it. It's awesome. So I love having her there. But, you know, most of the time she's like, I'm going to do something else and I'll go with my son. Which obviously like, you know, fishing with your kids is like possibly the best thing ever. And I just feel so happy that I didn't ruin it for them. Dads can ruin things for their kids. I don't know if you knew that. I did ruin fishing for my daughter, unfortunately, because we did it so much that now she's like, I don't like fishing, dad. Well, it sounds like you've got extras. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, okay, you're my second favorite now. Get away from me. But no, definitely scaling it back. But I mean, my kids were like three years old. I'm like, all right, let's go. Freaking my wife out next to Boulder Creek when it's raging, in retrospect, was probably a terrible idea. But they're fine. But I do remember there was just like a magical memory of being on the Dreamstream with my son. He was 10 and completely self-sufficient, confident, catching fish on his own. It was just the most incredible thing of seeing him on the river encapsulated in a cloud of mosquitoes, But nonetheless, like having a really good day fishing, it was so cool. So, you know, that works. And like you're saying, like fishing is kind of sneaky hiking. So if you can get your kids moving a little bit, it's really helpful.
Katie
So how do you think, you know, we're talking about kind of enhancing your relationships. The comparison of, you know, sometimes you leave your family to go fishing and that in turn makes you come back, you know, more ready to be a good family member, let's say, versus fishing with somebody as kind of a different way to enhance your relationships. And let's say, you know, you're going and doing something difficult together because it sounds like both of us tend to like to get into the backcountry and work a little bit hard to get to where we're fishing. I've noticed that people that I do those type of activities with quickly become some of my closest friends. I don't have a lot of really close friends that I haven't gone through something difficult with. I think there's kind of a bit of reliance involved. But I just want to hear your thoughts on that. Relationships that you've developed through fishing versus kind of just being a general better family member because you have this escape. How do those things compare for you?
Ryan
Yeah, it's kind of a comparison for me of just like the duration of the friendship. You know, I'm pretty fortunate that I've got friends I go back with to like kindergarten, you know, red light, green light. We still got problems about, you know, old playground beefs. So and these guys tend to be like these are my hunting buddies. These are the people that I've been backpacking with since high school. You know, like you said, like we've had like harrowing life or death experiences together where there's a shorthand. And being out in the wilderness, fishing, generally speaking, these guys, we all have kids now. So, you know, we're going medium. But definitely, you know, in hunting season, it gets to that point. So there's an understanding of like, I know that if things go sideways, if I'm with these people, we're okay. You know, because things have gone sideways before. And then I have newer friends, maybe people that are newer to the sport. maybe people that are into the sport, but maybe that I haven't really tested, or also they just don't go that hard. So there's, I guess what, I'm a little bit more captain safety around these folks of making sure that I'm prepared if I need to take care of them. If, you know, they slip and break their rank or like not getting people into too much. I think that being a parent is definitely like kind of created that persona in me of like, let's make sure we're, everybody's really safe. And like, like, we're going to really look at those thunderheads, you know, if we're, if we're doing Alpine lakes at 2 PM in Colorado, like we hear thunder, we are out, you know, kind of taking lead a little bit more. So, but then that becomes a great bonding experience, you know, because, you know, just if I differentiate between like friends, I can see that it is actually these formative experiences. Maybe you test your limitations a little bit is what kind of connects you to them. So I love it. I love taking people fishing when they really haven't done that. Or in Colorado, we're so lucky, particularly the last couple of years, that there's this amazing foraging opportunities now for mushrooms and stuff like that, or rock hounding. There's all these different ways to kind of engage with friends. So even though I'm evangelist and And always like trying to get everybody to go fishing with me at least, you know, one time and figure it out. If it's a little bit much, then like being able to pivot and finding other opportunities to connect.
Katie
Definitely. I know what you mean about people. Like there's times I feel like I'm responsible for the group. Like I'm not that I'm actually guiding them, but, you know, I'm in charge of the group here. I feel like people's safety is my responsibility. If something happens to somebody, I feel like it's my fault. And then there's other friends I've got who we are very much equals on the trip. You know, we're discussing decisions. And if something bad happened to them, I wouldn't necessarily feel like it was my fault. I would say, you know, you made that decision because we're both here together having equal input. And no one is like taking care of anybody else. I mean, we're taking care of each other, but you're not my responsibility at that point. We just kind of trust that everybody is experienced enough to make good decisions and contribute equally to the group. And I really like when I get to a place with somebody where we can have that kind of understanding. It's like an unspoken understanding that we both know what's going on here. We're both experienced and we're here to help each other and rely on each other. But we have kind of equal footing. I really like that point because it feels like a very reliable relationship. Like those are the friends that I'm going to have for the rest of my life because we have been there for each other and we have gone through those things together. And I do think not just fishing, outdoor experiences in general, because they put you in those, like you said, sometimes life or death situations or just difficult. You know, you got to make a difficult decision. Do we stay or do we leave? Those I feel like those experiences really quickly progress relationships faster than we get together once a week for coffee. You know, there's just something different in that type of experience together.
Ryan
Yeah, you kind of develop your own sign language and stuff. You get to know someone's personality if you spend 14 hours with them and they're sunburned at the end of the day.
Katie
Yep.
Ryan
Or an attack getting hailed on. Yeah. You're like, oh, you want my beer? That's what happened? You didn't think to bring your own? Okay. I see who you are.
Katie
Yeah, I'm going to take note.
Ryan
You know, the other thing I wanted to touch on, too, was the spiritual practice in fishing. And a couple of things that I've been interested in, because I kind of have always I've always been attracted to religion as like a like a tourist, I suppose, in studying. I don't I'm not necessarily a very religious person. But over the years, I've become a spiritual person, which also is kind of vague and unclarified. But to me, spiritual practice is something that you actually do. You know, so if it's contemplative practice or if it's singing in the choir or whatever, it's like the actual thing that's doing in kind of a contemplative practice. And fishing obviously has a lot of this like great innate experience. And I would say semi-consciousness altering experiences, which is hard to explain. But like if you're on the water long enough, you can kind of feel things of the environment, which is interesting. But as a student, I think of like spiritual texts, if we're talking about like the Tao Te Ching or talking about the Bible, it's always been interesting. I guess relatable to me, to the practice or to the scriptures when they mentioned fishing, particularly in like the Eastern esoteric stuff. There's always stuff about rivers, crossing rivers, and it immediately endears me to the author. It's like, oh, I know who this guy is. This guy's on the river fishing. It humanizes it in a way. It allows me to kind of get some tangible – because if you get into kind of like religious scriptures, they're very crazy in a good way. But like you can tell they were written to be authorities on things. So it kind of has this kind of turnoff of like talking at you. Whereas I think that it's really interesting to see what's in there. It's kind of a three-dimensional text. But for me, it's always helpful when they start talking about the river or fishing. You know, I don't think it's like, you know, any surprise that Jesus went to the fishermen to find his disciples. You know what I mean? It's like, well, why would he go there? It's like, because they're all hanging out fishing. These are some good guys. You can recruit these guys. They're going to be on board for this message of love. You know, so where fishing has been like a kind of instrumental with materializing some of my spiritual practices, actually in just the action of fishing. It's also been helpful from like kind of a religious studies perspective, because it seems to humanize the characters in these stories, because I immediately can relate to people fishing. So it happens, it ends up being kind of like this incredible unifying force throughout all human history that people have always done, you know? Yeah, I mean, go ahead. Sorry.
Katie
I was just going to say, I feel like that's, it's kind of natural for that to have happened just because I feel like fishing has been part of humanity since the dawn of time. I mean, people have been catching fish all over the world in various ways, feeding themselves for eons, basically. And I feel like it tracks that that is something that has kind of stuck around and inserted itself into all these different cultures. You could argue that the Bible is very different from various other religious texts. But at the end of the day, they're still made by people who have inherited these things that have been passed down for ages. So it's not surprising to me that something as ubiquitous as fishing has made its way across religious texts and has been such an integral part of them.
Ryan
Yeah. And if it wasn't done intentionally, because they know, I mean, it would make sense biologically that the people that survived had a biological reflex to enjoy fishing, because they're going to eat the fish. So like, if one of the traits that we inherited from our ancestors is the love of fishing, because it makes you actually, it increases your fitness to survive. you know I don't know probably so you know plus fish are delicious which boy what a great treat that is I mean particularly because we live in Colorado so we get to catch trout all the time man and no disrespect to bass fishermen I like fishing for bass too but it's just not as delicious
Katie
yeah that's true well I want to ask I want to ask you you know considering this you know the fact that people like fishing because they have, you know, we've had to fish to survive for so long. Where do you think, where do you think the tables turned where someone was like, you know what, I don't need this fish to survive, but boy, that was fun. And I want to go out and like, basically catch and release. Because, you know, there is some sort of, I'm sure some sort of trigger in you when you have a fish on the line, something deep inside you that's like, I'm going to eat tonight. But most of the time, you know, you've got food at home, you don't actually need that fish to eat. And then it switches to this is just plain fun. You know, where do you think that that switch was flipped and people, you know, acknowledge, do you think the fun aspect came from that biological need to get fish to eat? Or do you think, you know, there's just something in people that, you know, looks for entertainment? You know, where do you think that originated?
Ryan
Yeah, you know what, I, it does seem to be fun, even regardless if you eat it, you know what I I mean, it's like preparing the fish is great, but it's got to catch and release has got to be a very modern invention, right?
Katie
I assume so. But I feel like people have to have been having fun reeling in fish for a long time and not just because they know they're going to eat. I'm sure centuries ago, someone was reeling in a fish and was like, boy, this is fun. I don't care if I'm going to eat this fish or not. I just love this tug on my line.
Ryan
Oh, absolutely. If you and I were in camp and we're like, hey, Katie and I are going fishing, they're like, we just killed a yak. You're like, I'm not hungry. I just want to go fishing. Like that's all. They're all confused. And then Catch and Release was born. You know, I don't know. You know, I think there's like Catch and Release, particularly barbless, I think is really fun. And, you know, it's something that I really picked up from my son. Obviously, like I have a deep respect and love for nature and the fish, but Sun's very adamant at the way you handle the fish in a good way to give them the best chance to be OK. You know, so I think some of this care and like probably comes from Disney. You know, I'm sure there's always been a great reverence for these things, but maybe also being in a modern world. We understand global scarcity around fish and water in particular probably is a contributing factor to that. But it is interesting. Catch and release had to come from some kind of calorie surplus where you got a yak or a buffalo at camp and you're just like, I don't even want this fish. Send it back in.
Katie
Well, I think it's important, too, to acknowledge that people have probably been releasing fish much longer than people have been deliberately going out saying, I'm going to release every fish I catch. Because if you're fishing for food and you catch something that's three inches long, when you go hunting, you deliberately say, I'm going to kill this animal now. I've decided that I want this animal and now I'm going to kill it. Whereas fishing, it kind of happens to you. I mean, you're fishing, but what bites your line is somewhat out of your control. And so if you're going out trying to catch dinner and you catch a four inch brook trout, you're probably going to say, no, I'm going to put this back because I don't really want to eat this. It's too small for me to eat. I'll let it get bigger and try to catch it again later. And so I have to assume that people catching fish, you know, thousands of years ago would still occasionally release fish if they weren't, you know, the proper type of fish they were looking to catch. And I wonder if at some point, you know, you release five fish that day and keep one. You're like, well, I still had a great time, you know, so like I could go out and do this whenever I want. And I feel like at some point it had to have morphed to I'm going out knowing I'm going to release all my fish. But I assume that that has existed in some way for a long time, just by the nature of fishing, being kind of a passive, you know, you react to what the fish does to you.
Ryan
And understanding that like, oh, it's four inches now and it'll catch it next year and it'll be, you know, 14. And then that's a nice meal. I guess the other thing is too, I think I have this like probably wrong intuition that fisher people were starving in some capacity. I'm pretty sure that like seasonally, you know, that's why humans all lived on the coast is because fish were so abundant, you know, like humans did great. And there's, there's a, you know, a strong claim that like our brains were able to get so large and evolve so quickly because we are eating so much protein and fat from fish on the coasts. So I'm sure they were catching releasing all the time because I mean, You know, it's like I watch alone and I see these poor people starving. I'm like, dude, what are you doing looking for berries, man? Just catch two fish a day. You're fine. You could just, you'll be there forever. Right. You know, so I'm sure if it was like, you know, you wake up, you go fishing, you catch two big fish, you eat them. You're like, sweet. Well, what else am I going to do? I'm not hiking. That's insane. I'm going to stay here and go fishing. I'm not going to stand up paddleboard because those aren't even invented yet. So, you know, I mean, I always kind of come from the perspective of like the kind of fishing I do, which is like alpine fishing. But, you know, most of those those things are stocked or they have like Brookies, invasive species and stuff like that. You know, if we were in Colorado, you know, pre-colonialism, then, you know, we're definitely going to be eating big game. You know, yeah, there's really no reason to go to those alpine lakes at all unless you're like probably forging for different stones and things like that. that. So, you know, the kind of fishing that we do, I realized that like I have kind of a blind spot to probably what the historical way people have been fishing forever. And that came out once because my son and I went on a bucket list fish trip to Arizona and we pull into, I think it was Prescott and we're like, hey, where's the tackle shop? And they're like, what's that? I was like, you know, the tackle shop. They're like, no, we don't have that here. And I was like, why not? And it's like, and then it just clicked. It's like, dude, you're in Arizona, man. There's no water here. This is like the surface of Mars. There was like no water, you know, they don't even have a fishing shop, you know? So I was like, wow, man, Brian, do you even think this through? We ended up having a wonderful time and looking for an Apache trout on the reservation, which was really exciting. We did not catch it. But some of my cognitive biases that were kind of exposed of like, you know, the world's not Colorado, bro.
Katie
The world isn't as obsessed with fishing as some people are.
Ryan
Yeah, totally.
Katie
Speaking of interesting stories, the last thing I wanted to make sure I asked you about that was mentioned was your trip to the North Platte where you were in a tornado. I really want to hear what this story is about.
Ryan
Yeah, this is another story of me blowing it and probably ruining fishing for my family. They forgave me, thank God. This is a few years ago. The result of this storm, not only was it a gigantic thunderstorm that produced tornadoes all over the place, but it ended up coming into Denver and blew over several billboards. I don't know if you remember this storm. It's like June 2020, I want to say. Maybe 2019, because I think it was pre-COVID. it was a ridiculous storm and this is a cautionary tale of like trust the locals but I was very motivated I wanted to take the family on a fishing trip we're gonna go get some like drift boats do the north platte it was a section of the river I hadn't done I'm gonna camp out it's gonna be great and I just forced the whole thing my wife is like honey have you seen the the weather reports like no it's fine don't worry about it it's this time of year it always rains, it'll pass, no problem, don't worry about it. You know, just pushing, pushing, pushing. We ended up getting there, setting up camp briefly. And then it kind of hunkering, or no, I'm sorry, I've got it wrong. We get in, drop camp, then go to the river directly. And so everyone's leaving the river. The skies are black with, you know, when the clouds have a ring of green and like bright white. So that thing's happening. I go into the tackle shop where you get the drift boats and he's like, I'm like, what's buying? He's like, nothing today. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, storm's coming in. I was like, nope, I have a reservation. And he's like, how experienced are you with drift boats? And I'm like, very. My son starts elbowing me. This is like probably the second time I've ever been in a drift boat. I'm like, how hard can it be? I've been doing CrossFit for seven years on a rowing machine. I need to actually like put this to practical use. So we end up on this, on the stretch of river and just got absolutely destroyed, the whole way. And in kind of like, you know, there's prayers being said as the wind is pegging me to one bank to the other side. I was a terrible captain, you know, my son almost goes over. So we get off the river, take it back up. And then we have to camp. Um, I guess that's the only shelter we had. So we're in a tent and the tent is like literally on top of us all night. Just being blown over. It was like, yeah, it was like 60, 70 mile an hour winds, which if you've done any camping or in Wyoming, Wyoming is unreal with the wind. So we just got, completely destroyed. The next morning, a tent's broken. Family's disheveled. I basically just like, you can't, it's like torn and it's all messed up. So I just kind of like throw everything in the truck and then strap this broken tent on top of it. And we leave in disgrace.
Katie
Now, did you catch anything?
Ryan
No, I did not. My son had a giant football on and wasn't able to land it because I was a terrible captain. And that there was like white caps. It was a complete disaster. And so I guess the reason for sharing the story is for other fathers out there, perhaps young fathers. Don't do that. That was the one that broke my daughter forever. Like she'll never go to the river to me ever again because now there's a lack of trust. Like when you clearly see. But as we were saying before, in retrospect, we can look at those pictures and look at our face and how just absolutely ragged that night of sleep was. And it's endearing. and they get to make fun of me forever for that. So net positive.
Katie
Well, I'm sure it brought you guys closer together. Having your lives flush before your eyes together in a boat probably strengthens those bonds.
Ryan
It did. It did. And it also taught me that the care that I should have when I'm out with other folks that I haven't had harrowing experiences with is probably the care I should have with my own family who unfortunately have been on a couple of these kind of things where I'm like, yeah, we're fine. They're tough. We can do it. Let's go. Like, no, no, no, come on.
Katie
Don't do that again. The quickest way to get someone to not like fishing is to take them out and not, not, not catch fish. That's, I feel like that's fine. It's, you know, make them, make them question whether they were safe the whole time. Put them through a tornado. Right.
Ryan
That's, that's not a great idea. Sometimes you got to turn around. These are the lessons that
Katie
hopefully I'm getting a little bit better at. Well, you know, a learning experience. That's right. Well, Ryan, just to wrap up, I don't know how much of a presence you have online for your phishing content, but if anyone wanted to reach out or like find, I don't know if you have like any phishing social media or anything like that, but where can people find you if they wanted to see what you're up to?
Ryan
You bet. So I don't do anything actively online. I'm just sensitive to like areas that I don't want them blown up. And I don't really understand when I put a picture up, like, well, who can see what somebody was telling me like their geo targeted location is everywhere. But I do have an air table spreadsheet of absolute fantastic, Alpine lakes, that we're kind of talking about today that are, that are my spots, that I'm happy to share with anybody, that wants to do it. And so long as they don't share it with anybody and, and they looking for spots in Colorado. I have a pretty elaborate Airtable spreadsheet that kind of talks about the lift required to get in there. So if you want to plan for like little kiddos, there's stuff in there. If you really want to go hard, there's some stuff in there. So best place to hit me is on LinkedIn. That's kind of the only social media I check. You can just search Ryan Estes in Denver and find me. And if you hit me like with a DM, I'm happy to share this for the listeners. Katie, I want to thank you for having this awesome podcast and just being able to come on here and speak maybe a little philosophical and maybe it didn't make any sense at all. But I love that you do this because the other component of fishing that's so important is talking about fishing.
Katie
Yeah. No, I've gathered that from a lot of people is they just want to talk about it. Like there's, you know, it doesn't always have to be practical tips and techniques. A lot of time it's just, hey, have you experienced the same thing I have? You know, like almost wanting that validation. So I love these conversations that are a little bit less about the how-tos and more about what you've experienced in your time out there.
Ryan
It's great. And thanks for creating a home for that. This has been so fun.
Katie
Well, thank you. I've had a ton of fun. And you live probably 20 minutes from me. Maybe we'll have to find some time to get out in the water together at some point.
Ryan
I would love that. I would love that. I promise no tornadoes.
Katie
I'm going to hold you to that if we go out. That's a hard limit for me.
Ryan
I know what happens when I get excited. You'll be like, hey, Ryan, we can't go. Instead of a tornado, I'm like, they're always wrong. Don't worry about that. Come on, let's go.
Katie
It's true. I mean, most of the time the rain does just pass. So I wouldn't be surprised if I end up in the same situation at some point.
Ryan
I can see it in your eyes. You got a tornado fishing trip in the future.
Katie
I can only hope. Well, Ryan, I will let you get going. I know we're coming up on time here, but this has been a ton of fun. And thank you so much for coming on.
Ryan
Thank you. Appreciate it.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com, for all episodes and show notes. And also, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me, and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening, and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.
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