Ep 76: Fishing is for Everyone, with Erica Nelson
Erica Nelson is the cofounder of REAL Consulting, host of the Awkward Angler Podcast, Orvis Endorsed fly fishing guide, and Brown Folks Fishing Ambassador. She is currently working on season 3 of her podcast. Erica loves to fish and guide on the beautiful waters around Crested Butte, CO, and also works to make fly fishing a more inclusive sport for all. In this episode, we talk about the fishing in her part of the state, as well as why fishing should be welcoming to everyone and what can be done to make that happen.
Instagram: @awkwardangler
REAL Consultants Website: consultREAL.org
Awkward Angler Website: awkwardAngler.com
Rogue River Event, Oct 1-4, 2022: link
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 76 with Erica Nelson on fishing as a sport for everyone. (Laughing) we can dive right in.
Erica
So, my name is Erica Nelson. My pronouns are she and her. I am the co-founder of Real Consulting, based here in ancestral Ute territory, known as Crested Butte, Colorado. And educationally, I have a bachelor's in psychology and outdoor leadership. And I went to college at a private level art school in Lake Tahoe, Sierra Nevada University, which was pretty rad. And that's where I kind of got into some guiding. I facilitated and led outdoor courses, developed curriculum for outdoor programming, which kind of really launched my passion for the outdoors and guiding and leading trips and stuff like that. I was also a whitewater guide. I used to have a career back in hospitality management back in the day, downtown Portland, Oregon. But really once I went back to college, really projected me onto this guiding path. So I started doing hiking, backpacking, was a ski instructor, and kind of did all kinds of things outdoors. And then when I moved to Wyoming in 2016, and got into fly fishing. And since then just kind of hit the ground running of really getting hooked into fishing. So really started doing some work in not only leadership development, but also diversity, equity and inclusion work, which I thought, you know, the whole leadership world was missing this element of being an inclusive leader. So over the years, just kind of started my own consulting and I'm now a fly fishing guide, which there's a lot more to that, but I'll keep it short and brief. Yeah, I'm sure we'll dive into all this.
Katie
I did want to ask, tell me more about this major, like a psychology and, like, what did you say, outdoor recreation? Was that like a double major? Were they related at all or did you just, you said, "I'm interested in this and I'm interested in this, so I'm just going to do both?"
Erica
Yeah, originally it was together. I thought I wanted to be like an outdoor, like, marriage and family counselor was the original plan.
Katie
Interesting.
Erica
Yeah, I originally wanted to do therapy outdoors and also work with non-conventional, I guess you could call it, of relationships. So like polyamorous relationships or multi-relationship type partners, LGBTQ and queer type partnerships. So I really thought that I gained a lot of experience river guiding and being in the outdoors was very therapeutic. It really helped with communication styles and really just kind of leaning into my own, figuring out what kind of leadership style I have. And so I thought, "Hey, what if I brought this into marriage and family? What would that look like?" And eventually I ended up not going down that route after doing clinicals and counseling. I really started to fall in love more with the guiding aspect and kind of this pursuing the outdoors for more educational purposes versus psychotherapy reasons. And so I ended up separating the two because there was an interdisciplinary degree that I started out as, but then I wanted to pursue more psychology research. And so I had to kind of separate the two. It kind of came to a point where, yeah, where I wanted to do more research, but also keep guiding as separate. So I ended up separating that and getting a double major there.
Katie
OK. I guess the benefit there is that even if you're educating people in the outdoors, they're probably receiving some psychological benefits from being outside anyway. So you might still be achieving that original goal, even if it's not the primary objective.
Erica
Absolutely. And I still feel like I'm using both of the degrees to the fullest extent, really just diving into- I'm a big observer, so it's like, why? Let's explore that. Let's look at human behaviors and different things in the outdoor industry. So I'm really excited to be one of those graduates that feels like I'm using both of my degrees.
Katie
Now, how did you get interested in the outdoors in the first place? It sounds like you already had this interest, obviously, when you formed this major. So did you grow up spending a lot of time in the outdoors, or did someone introduce you to the outdoors in particular?
Erica
Not really. I actually hated the outdoors as a kid.
Katie
Oh, really? OK.
Erica
I mean, I was involved in like outdoor sports, like softball, soccer, et cetera. That was kind of the extent of my outdoor outings. Every year my parents would probably do an annual camping trip with the entire extended family. So grandparents, aunts, uncles, I have a lot of cousins. And, you know, my dad tried to get me into conventional fishing, which I hated. I got really impatient. And it wasn't until probably in my early twenties, Like when I was 23, I just started getting into yoga and then hiking and then wanted more and then just kind of wanted to pursue backpacking and just kind of eventually fell in love with it in my mid-20s. Just finding it on my own as a way of getting out and finding solitude solely. So that's kind of how I got into that.
Katie
And did you teach yourself? I think I saw on your website that you were self-taught. What does that involve for you? Was that books or videos? What did you use?
Erica
Yeah, at the time, back in my mid-20s was books, and Backpacker Magazine, and then eventually into YouTube, especially with fly fishing. So I started learning from YouTube how to tie knots, how to cast, and how to get into all of that. So online resources, and then meeting people online too is really helpful. That really kind of solidified my skills.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like books and magazines are great for inspiration, but they're not that easy to teach yourself how to do something, especially something as intricate as fly fishing. I feel like YouTube really opened a lot of doors for people, letting them be able to see what to do and be able to mimic that and compare yourself to something you're actually viewing versus trying to read an explanation. It's really hard to read it and understand what's going on.
Erica
Yeah. You make a really great point on the inspiration because I would look at these magazines and And I remember seeing women, or actually not even women. I saw men standing on a glacier with an ice axe. And I was like, whoa, that looks so cool. And I was like, oh, yes. And I always thought that would be really badass to be. And then I remember actually going to Alaska and taking a similar photo when I was backpacking and doing some other promenading type stuff. So I was really excited to look back and like, oh, yeah, I did it.
Katie
Yeah, magazines often have the best photography, I feel like. You've got to have a pretty good photo. Anyone can put a photo on a blog or in a YouTube video, but you've got to have some decent photography skills to get in a magazine. So those are usually great treasure troves of just fantasizing as you scroll through, once you already know what you're doing, or to inspire you to pick something up for the first time. So that's pretty cool. I want to hear- I know we're going to get into more of the work you're doing to make fly fishing more inclusive for everybody, But I also just want to hear what your fishing day to day is like. Because I've been to Crested Butte for skiing. It's a gorgeous place. But I'm sure the fly fishing is fantastic as well. So I'd love to hear just what do you like fishing for? And what kind of fishing do you like doing? Do you like backpacking in? Do you like car camping? Do you like glamping with some cocktails? Like what's your idea of a good day?
Erica
Yeah, I'd say all of that is pretty fun. I happen to live in an area that has access to everything that you just mentioned. And so, you know, I was just thinking yesterday of the spots that are, you know, 10 minutes or less away from my house are still frozen. So there is just a hatchery pond that's really fun this time of year. And, but mostly there's a lot of stuff I like to do. There's the Taylor River, the Gunnison River, mostly with brown trout and rainbow trout, occasionally a cutthroat, but they're pretty elusive. In the fall, there's a Kokanee run, which is really fun to catch. And there's a lot of free stone creeks and streams all over the place that are really super fun for small stream fishing to bigger water type stuff. And I just got a raft at the end of last season. So rafting down the Gunnison and the Taylor has been really fun as well. And also last year I rented an ATV And I went up to some backcountry and found the most beautiful cutthroat and brook trout. And it was a really fun experience. And I cannot wait for the snow to melt because it was a pretty awesome time. So, but some of those streams that I like to visit, they can be anywhere from like 30 minutes to hour, like a couple hours away. So definitely into the car camping scene. As I'm getting older, I'm now looking into like cabins. I'm like, "Okay, I kind of want to bed and I want to make some breakfast before I head out on a long day." So yeah, I can see my old self evolving here. I'm all over fishing.
Katie
Do you have a favorite technique? Do you prefer dry flies or streamers? Is there one thing you lean more toward?
Erica
Yeah. When I started fishing, I was kind of dry fishing only. I started in Wyoming on these big hoppers and so that's all I thought fly fishing was. And then when fall hit it was kind of streamer fishing and I thought that's all it was, was seven weight streamer fishing or you know five weight or six with the hopper. And I was pretty picky for the first couple years I was fishing. I was kind of like dry or die or streamer. And here on the Taylor, the fish are really, really picky. And so it kind of was like this humbling moment of like, okay, if I want to catch fish, I'm going to have to start nymphing. So started doing some nymph fishing and the tailwaters of the Taylor, right below Taylor Reservoir, have some pretty awesome big fish, which are really fun and they're super picky. And I don't know why I keep going back. like this, I don't know, definition of insanity. Why do I keep going back here? But they're, you know, super small, it's kind of a technical little tailwater area that's pretty fun to figure out. So I started doing kind of like this hind rig setup, which I tie like, I leave like, a few inches of the butt section of the leader, and then I tie a perfection loop. And then I just kind of create my own leader from there and do a couple nymph flies. Probably pretty tiny, I'd say down to size like 30. they're pretty picky.
Katie
Yeah, there's like a fine line between like what you said where, you know, if I want to catch fish I'm going to have to adapt here and start playing on the fish's terms, while also being, there's other days that I'm like, I just want to catch a fish on a dry fly and if I can't do that then I don't even care. Like I don't need to catch a fish on anything if I can't do it on this fly. And it's kind of like a balancing act of some days I'm really focused on wanting to catch fish and I'll do whatever it seems like it takes. And then other days I'm really set on I just want to like watch a dry fly drift and I don't really care if anything eats it. Like this is what I'm fishing. Do you ever go back and forth like that where you go out and you know one day you just want this one day you want something else and you kind of have to tailor that to what you're looking for?
Erica
Oh yeah for sure. Yeah I think um yeah I always like to try new things also of like hey maybe this will work you know no one else is Why not? You know, and it's always kind of a fun surprise whenever it happens, which happens more often than not. So I'm always kind of switching things up. And some people get frustrated because whenever, like when I'm fishing with friends, I'm like, well, I already know what's working. I already know what's going to catch a fish.
Katie
Right.
Erica
I'm just going to try this on just to see what happens. And they're like, you know, roll their eyes at me. And I'm like, it's kind of fun just to figure it out. But yeah, I definitely switch back and forth. And I've become one of those people that brings two rods to the river now. There was a point where I was bringing three where I was like, I don't want to change to, you know, streamer to endive to dry. So I just started bringing three. But I think I'm a two rod gal now these days for the most part.
Katie
How do you manage carrying two rods? Because I know some people who have, you know, like belt clips that they carry a second rod. Some people just carry two rods. I tend to get annoyed when I have two rods to manage just because I'm often walking. I'm pretty much exclusively a Wade angler, so if there's a lot of, you know, brush and willows and stuff, I just get annoyed. So I'll just deal with it and change out my fly. But how do you manage the two-rod system? Have you got something down that works?
Erica
I don't have anything down, but I've tried some pretty interesting things. I am interested in clips right now, because this winter I did some, like, snowshoe in to get to the river, but, you know, and that was kind of interesting, because I was trying to carry, like, trekking poles and then also the fly rod and so I'm trying I'm interested in clips but I think for the most part I'm trying different things of you know where I actually go because you're totally right about if there's a bunch of willows I want to make you know a lot of I want to cover a lot of water that can definitely get a little frustrating I most recently picked up a Reyr gear rod which is kind of like a combo of like a tenkara with a reel
Katie
oh okay
Erica
it's a yeah it's a fascinating rod where I can have one set up and then I can just kind of pack that down and put it in my like in a loop in my fishing pack. So that's one thing that I'm trying right now but for the most part yeah it's just carrying two rods and setting one down and then going back in case it's kind of annoying.
Katie
When you say a tenkara style rod with a reel does that just mean a rod that telescopes? Like it can fold down to be just a couple inches long but you still have that reel there?
Erica
Yep, yeah, and actually the line goes through the rod.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Erica
Yeah, it's quite fascinating.
Katie
I've never heard of that. What did you say it was called?
Erica
Reyr, it's R-E-Y-R, gear.
Katie
Yeah I'll have to look into that. I don't do a lot of tenkara fishing, but I like it for the idea that there's times I find myself along a river that I didn't expect to, like I'm just hiking or I'm going for a run or whatever, and being able to throw that in a backpack and I need to get better about actually carrying it because I always forget to throw it in. But the number of times I've been hiking and I'm like, "Man, there's a stream right there. If I could just pull out a rod in 30 seconds, take a couple casts and keep moving, that'd be great." And I'm just not willing to do that with all the setup, but something that you could just telescope out. I feel like that in my mind, that's the perfect situation for something like that.
Erica
It really is. Yeah. It's a little interesting when you're trying to get further casts, but for smaller bodies of water and streams, just exactly what you're talking about. It's so perfect. I'm falling in love with it. It's great.
Katie
Cool. So we can, I guess, move into kind of the main part of the podcast, which I wanted to hear from you because I heard you on, or I saw you in the New York Times, and then I heard you on the So Fly podcast as well. I like what you're doing with just trying to make fly fishing more inclusive. And I think, and I'm sure we'll get into this, I think it's gotten better over the years, at least from my point of view, just as a woman. It's always been kind of an old white guy thing, and now I feel like it's become a lot more open to women joining. But I obviously don't have the experience as a person of color, which, you know, it's easy to forget about what other people might be experiencing when you've never experienced it yourself. So I'm excited to hear what you have to say on that. But maybe just give me a background on what, like, what your goal is with kind of opening fly fishing up to a broader audience. Like, why do you think that's important for us to have more diversity in fly fishing?
Erica
Yeah, thanks for asking. I think there's a few reasons that go along with this. I think one is for recognition that fishing has been a way of sustenance for indigenous communities for tens of thousands of years. And I think it's owed some recognition to some degree. I like the sport of fishing. I do like catch and release, but I think we can get a little pretentious or elitist about it and so many rules and what gear you need. And I think it's just kind of humbling to consider, you know, the roots of fishing and really just kind of honor that, especially with ancestral lands that have been fishing for, you know, hundreds of years. So I think it's just kind of recognition and a nod to that. But also, I really do see that the more folks that we bring into fishing or even just the outdoors in general, that we're going to, you know, create more conservationists, people to actually care for these lands. I do see fishing as a gateway to conservation. And so I've led a lot of folks into fishing that have turned into stewards of land. So signing up for volunteer days or really kind of looking at where their tax dollars go and how they're voting and who's in office and how that impacts our land management and our resources as well, which I think is the ultimate goal for caring and protecting our waters.
Katie
Absolutely. I'm really glad you brought up the whole catch and release, or like you have to have this kind of gear, because I think that's a big barrier to entry for anyone, honestly, like regardless of where you come from or what you look like. There's just this idea that fly fishing is done a particular way, and if you don't do that, you're not doing it right. And I think people assume that you've got to have thousands of dollars to start fly fishing, which isn't the the case at all, that you're a terrible person if you ever keep fish, which is not the case. And I think it's moving in the right direction. I think I've been hearing more people bringing up these issues and making it clear that you don't have to come from a certain background with a certain amount of wealth to pick up a fly rod. You can get started for very little money and without much gear. And you never have to buy the specialty gear if you don't want to. You only need a handful of items to go out there and start fly fishing.
Erica
Oh, totally. Absolutely. I try to stick to my, I was just thinking the other day of like, how did I end up with so much gear after priding myself on not needing that much gear and really truly trying to stick to, it is accessible and you don't need a whole lot. And I was fortunate enough to have access to Freak Gear Rentals and that's how I got into that. So, and I've been fortunate enough to have friends in the industry that have been able to help build my library, and so not everybody has that access. And so I do try to remember of like, you know, you really don't need waders. You don't need a fancy rod. You don't need a whole lot of stuff to just go out. And, you know, I sometimes wonder what it would be like to just tie some tippet onto a stick. I was like, I wonder if that would actually work. Maybe this summer we'll see. But yeah, you know, and also just kind of the unspoken rules. I had a lot of fun in the beginning of March. I went to a steelhead camp through Brown Folks Fishing was hosting. And it was the first time that I actually got to formally- not formally, but I guess formally, kind of have a lesson about conventional fishing and spin fishing. That's something that I haven't- I mean, I did that when I was a kid, but haven't really picked up a really nice spin rod and figured out how to cast it. And I was really impressed on the distance thing can get. I was like wow why haven't I used this this whole time to go all the way across the large body of water but it was really fun because it's a really low barrier to entry. Typically they're not expensive rods and if you're kind of just wanting to get out and have fun I was trying different things that probably would make people it probably sounds like nails on a chalkboard but and I'm like, "What would it be like to put a fly on a spin rod?" [laughter] And it was fun because I was in a supportive group that were like, "Yeah, try it out. There's no rules. There's no one here to judge you. Just do it."
Katie
We used to do that with- I used to work for a company that we'd take kids out fishing, and there were days that flies were working better than worms would because the adults would go fly fishing. Their kids would be able to just spin fish with worms, But these fish would often rather take a fly. So we, it was really common for us to put a little bubble on there with a fly on the spin rod. And those little SpongeBob rods, they can cast like a hundred yards. I don't, I feel like they cast farther than the adult spin rods. Those kids could cast like the whole way across the lake and then just drag that fly back across with the bubble. And it worked like a charm.
Erica
Yeah. It was fun. Cause I got to meet a, an angler. She goes by the name Badash Outdoors. and she's like, "Yeah, I bring my fly rod and my spin rod just to cover as much water as I can." She's like, "I like to clean up." She catches a lot of fish and she's also an awesome chef. So it's like, you know, she's like, "I just get it all, why not?" So I think she's really inspiring me to look into a spin rod, but I think you've even pushed me to look into the SpongeBob line there.
Katie
Those rods are incredible. We'd go out with the kids and some of the older kids would want more of an adult looking rod, and then the three-year-old would get the SpongeBob rod. And I knew the three-year-old was going to outfish all of the older kids just because they could get so much more distance on their casts. And plus the compactness, it can fit in a backpack. You brought up the, like, how do I have so much gear when it doesn't take a lot to go fishing? And I think, you know, on the other side of what we were talking about, like, fishing's accessible, like, don't let the cost scare you away. I guess we could also acknowledge that it's just fun to have a lot of gear. If you have the means and you've decided that this is what your passion is, it becomes a lot of fun to look through all the different gear and have all the little accessories on your pack that you don't really need, but they make your life easier and they're just fun to have and to play with. I feel like every hobby's got very specialized gear that as an outsider you'd look at and say, "Who needs that?" But it's just fun.
Erica
It’s funny and timely that you say that and I hear you say that because I had a little anxiety of like is this going to be video because I'm literally sorting through all of my gear right now and my house is I kind of live in a in a really tiny it's not officially a tiny house but it's pretty much a tiny home it's a one bedroom and I have so much gear and I'm like can't even go I can't open my closet right now in my bedroom because it's all falling out so I finally decided to like All right, I'm going to organize this. I already have a nice little pile of things to give away, but yeah, it's accumulated. It is fun because I'm like, "Oh yeah, this little gadget. Oh yeah, this little gadget." Anyway, soon enough, I'm going to need a vest and be decorating it and putting all these ornaments on it. I don't know if I want to do that yet. I don't know if I'm quite there yet
Katie
There's definitely a limit you hit where you're like, "This is too much," but there's a sweet spot in between bare minimum and way too much stuff that's nice to have. I don't I feel like every year I decide a new way to organize my flies where I'm like, "No, now I'm going to have this many boxes and they're going to be divided by this, this, and this. And now I've solved it." And then the next year I'm like, "No, maybe I should rearrange it and have all the dry flies over here and all the..." I feel like every year I do some sort of massive reorganization, but I think it's just because I like looking at the flies and playing with them.
Erica
Totally. Yeah. I just did a little fly reorg about two months ago, and I think I'm due for another one. I was so excited I did it by creeks or by bodies of water. This is going to be the Taylor. This is going to be the guy.
Katie
Oh, interesting.
Erica
I'm going to do some creeks. Yeah, but I'm starting to see them get mixed up and I'm just trying new things. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm ready for another reorg." But it is fun. It's kind of meditative.
Katie
It is, yeah.
Erica
To look at all your flies.
Katie
I think if I were being honest with myself, I'd have one box of parachute atoms, one box of hair's ears, and one box of pheasant tails, and I'd probably never have to use another box in my life. to convince myself that maybe I'll choose something else at some point. That's great. But going back to what we're talking about, I did want to ask because you mentioned kind of the conventional, not conventional because that's more of like spin gear, but the traditional use of fishing areas and how people have caught fish for hundreds or thousands of years. Do you have a history, like do you know the history of where you're fishing and like how fishing practices have evolved over the years where you are or I guess anywhere else too? Do you have a knowledge of how fishing has historically taken place, especially in our country?
Erica
Not necessarily where I'm at currently today, and especially with my tribe. I am Diné, also known as Navajo, and we came from the desert in the southwest area. So I do a lot of listening and learning from other tribes that have historically been traditionally especially in the Pacific Northwest, looking in Alaska. Also, I'm a pretty good friend of Autumn Harry on Pyramid Lake, who is deeply connected to her waterways and her land there. So, you know, for me, it's the acknowledgement and knowing that it's there, but I think it's my job to listen and really kind of just pay my respect and tributes and see how I can be an advocate for those areas so tribes do have access to waterways. and have water rights as well. So I couldn't sit here and give you a formal lesson on any particular region, but it is building community and again, just listening and having some empathy, compassion, and then becoming an advocate for those areas.
Katie
Yeah, I might need to ask you if you have, 'cause you mentioned her name, but any other names that might come to mind as people who would be good resources to learn that from? 'Cause I think it's really interesting to find out the area of land in general. But particularly when it comes to fishing, they just kind of add another layer of- it's just kind of like why learning about the history of fly fishing is interesting. If you're passionate about something, learning about where it came from is really important. So I'd love to get some names from you at the end if you have any.
Erica
Yeah. The folks that come to mind right off are Little Leaf Guides. They're located on the Deschutes River on the Warm Springs Indian Reservation. And they do a lot of like trout and steelhead out there. And I think they're the only probably indigenous guide service that gets to guide on their own tribal lands. And then Autumn is also one of the first female guides at Pyramid Lake, which is pretty rad. And yeah, and I would say for the most part, fly fishing has been European, coming from European descent, which is fine. But again, it's kind of this culture and things that have been brought in and this, how it's evolved into this kind of elitism within the industry is something that it's like, okay, like, yes, it's fun. And yes, thank you for having this awesome sport. But at the same time, let's also acknowledge the lands that were stolen, the water rights that are still happening and the impacts that are still happening in current day. And then also, you know, looking at access and inclusion as well as part of that, too, and how that's evolved into the sport as well. So it's kind of like holistically outside, you know, not only knowing where I came from, but where we can go from here too.
Katie
Absolutely. Now what, I know we talked about some barriers to entry being, you know, the misconceptions about what fly fishing is, what you need to do to be a quote unquote, proper fly fisherman. What other barriers to entry do you see for any group, be it women, people of color, like whoever it might be that is feeling like fly fishing is not opening their arms and welcoming them. What other barriers to entry do you think there are out there that are really prominent today?
Erica
I would say there's a considerable lack of representation happening. And so if you can't see yourself in this space, then you probably won't give it a shot. And again, looking at that timeline down the road, if fishing is a gateway to conservation, and we're kind of missing out on that effort and that front. It's also pretty intimidating when you're looking at land access. And it's so hard when you live in a state that has a lot of grids, especially like Wyoming. And I remember there was like public access in the middle of private land. So it's like, how do you actually get to that spot? What are the easements? What is an easement, right? or just different things like that are really difficult. So I'm excited to see apps kind of coming more and more available for things like that, but it's still not perfect. And a lot of folks don't know their resources as well of where to turn to have access, like actual physical access to water. And so I'd say those are probably two predominant things I see and that I face whenever I'm in a new area as well.
Katie
Absolutely. I’m hoping that Colorado moves more toward, at least I know we're not as bad with the gridding as somewhere like Montana, but Montana has much better access laws on water. And I know that Colorado's is kind of up in the air right now and it looks like maybe we might have some good news about being able to access water if it goes through private land, but I guess we'll see on that. But that would be nice. And I agree, it's hard. You go to another state and you kind of have to like relearn it all. You can't just assume that know where you're allowed to be and where you're not allowed to be. I mean, obviously, you can't be on private land, but there's rules like, you know, like we talked about the being able to access to up to the high water mark in some places and then not in other places. And yeah, it's challenging and a kind of a fun way to kind of learn all these things, but it's also, it feels like you shouldn't have to do that. It feels like you should be easy to find out this information, like where can I access, where do I have permission to be, this shouldn't be that hard or difficult information to find.
Erica
Oh, totally. Yeah, absolutely. And then there's also, well, we could rely on a guide, but they're also really expensive as well. But I've been wrestling with this question, and I don't have an answer, but I'm wondering, does privatized water and lands hinder or kind of enhance protection when it comes to climate change? So anyway, that's just something I've been sitting on recently of like, does that help or hinder climate change if we privatize water and lands? Anyway.
Katie
Yeah, I'm sure there are instances of each depending on how people are taking care of their land. But yeah, that is an interesting concept to just mull over. I think it's a lot of fly fishing is just kind of thought experiments more so than like, I don't know how practical the application is, but just considering things like this and mulling it over. That's like kind of one of the fun things about fly fishing. Yeah, totally. When you said representation, do you think there's a... I guess that's not the way to phrase it. What do you think the best way to improve representation is? Do you think it's in advertising, in things like the fly fishing film tour, in print? I guess coming from my point of view, I don't feel like I view a lot of fly fishing advertising, maybe because I I mostly have what I need. Like I'm not always in the market for new stuff as much as somebody who might be trying to get into the sport is looking at advertising and trying to figure out what they want to buy. But on my end, I consume a lot more of like podcasts and blogs and video content and stuff like that. Do you think there's one area that would have kind of the biggest bang for its buck in terms of representation? Obviously, the ideal would be across the board. But do you think somewhere it kind of hits harder than everywhere else?
Erica
Ooh, I think we try to oversimplify complex issues and I think representation gets into the roots of systemic oppression. So I don't have like one finite thing, but to kind of answer that, I would say the first step when it comes to representation is knowing that women and other marginalized folks, which I will call historically excluded, have not been in the narrative. So knowing that we've been on these waters, it's just kind of how we're represented or not chosen to be represented. So we've been here, we're still gonna be here, but whose narrative gets told and who gets to be represented? I'd say the other thing, it's not just to kind of slap historically excluded faces into advertising or marketing efforts or anything like that, but that would be what I would consider tokenization. So I wanna see, And I think this also is with younger generations too, is seeing authentic marketing, I guess you could call it, like authentic relationships that are behind the marketing, I guess is what I'm saying. And so how are you forming genuine relationships? How are you forming community and building community? And so a lot of folks, well, not a lot, but I've been approached by different brands of, you know, partnerships or different things. And, you know, I wanna see them give back to a community that they haven't historically been including. So are they willing to donate to a charity, right? That of my choice, are they willing to actually pay me for my efforts? Are they willing to be in relationship and engage around long-term versus a one-time thing? And so that's kind of the work that I've been starting to do with different organizations and companies. And then I'd also say representation goes as far as the gear and the fit. I'd say Latina, I'd say Latina, indigenous and black bodies are not always this slender, skinny, white chick, if you will. And so most gear, most products are kind of made for a certain type of body. And so are we looking at representation outside of- like in that effort as well? And again, it's what you're saying of whose story gets told, right? And I think another effort is in publications. in blogs, that's in podcasts. That was also inspiring for me to just launch my own podcast because I wasn't hearing it. I wasn't hearing what I wanted to hear. I wasn't seeing stories that I wanted to hear. That's kind of what prompted me to just start my own.
Katie
I definitely do want to ask about your podcast before we wrap up. If I forget to ask you, just harass me about it. Something that I want to hear your opinion on because I haven't formed my opinion on it is, and I thought of it, it brought to mind when you said the tokenization of just like throwing somebody of color in an advertisement. Like it kind of feels cheap and like you're trying to display something about yourself more so than actually trying to like lift up the people that you claim to be helping. Where do you think, if you think there's a line, like where's the line, I guess this is particularly in something like video content, you know, where they're telling someone's story. I guess it could be written content too, but you know we're featuring so-and-so marginalized person in our story. And I noticed this trend when women were the big thing that we're trying to bring into fly-fishing, which I feel like we've kind of moved not past that, but I think it's a lot more common to see women on the water now than it used to be. And there was a time where you'd have women featured in, let's say, this video or this story, but the whole story was, "This is a woman fishing and we're featuring her," versus just like showing her fishing and it's not a big deal. And on one hand I think it's important that we show like this is a woman doing something that women haven't historically been welcomed doing. Like that's an important story to tell. While at the same time I don't want to just keep having the story be like wow this is such a big deal. I want to just watch it and feel like this is seamless. Like why it's not even special that a woman's out there because of course she's out there. There's no reason she shouldn't be. And do you have an opinion on kind of like where that line is between really making it apparent that this is an important issue that we need to talk about, while also not treating every marginalized person that comes into a story as being like that is their thing, like they're a marginalized person versus like they're just out there doing their thing and that's great.
Erica
Yeah, yeah, I would say I have kind of two different thoughts that come to mind. I'd say the first one is looking, I would say like what's the why, right? Like, why is this important to the creator to do this? Right? And is it truly an effort for like, changing a narrative, the industry, right? Are they, or are they looking for kind of like surface features, right? Of like, hey, I'm gonna get gold stars for this. And this is something that's happening in mainstream or national discourse. So I need to get my hand in this, right? And I need to get my name on this project in order to be highlighted for the moments right now. So I'm looking for a long, sustainable change. I'm looking for things that are going to be long lasting versus a nice little five minute short documentary, right, about like what you're just saying, right, about I'm featuring this woman because she's a woman, right? And that doesn't really, what does that actually get at and why did you decide to do that is kind of my question. So I typically find those a little off-putting sometimes. And what I wanna see, again, is this long sustainable change of authentic representation and really focusing and highlighting someone's expertise and their skills as well. Right, and I think we're so far from that narrative right now that it's gonna take some time to be able to get there. So I think it's a yes and, I don't think that there is a direct line. I think when we try to look for tangible direct, like just tell me yes or no, just tell me what to do. If we're looking for the moral question, I think we're gonna spend a lot of time spinning around in an eddy versus, hey, this is acknowledgement of what's happening right now. And then also taking responsibility for that of just kind of owning, right? Of, hey, this is actually contributing to the national discourse and the conversations that are happening now. And also I wanna see this as long sustainable change to where I don't have to make documentaries like this.
Katie
Right.
Erica
Right, where we can start to highlight. And so I think it's a balancing act. I don't think we can necessarily put one in one bucket or the other. I have been working with organizations right now on redefining what an athlete is. I think that's kind of why we're so far along from this is because we've historically just been seeing, you know, like if we close our eyes and somebody says athlete, right? What kind of pictures come to mind, right? And I've always kind of thought this when I worked in corporate, in the corporate world. I was doing leadership development and I used to do workshop classes with CEOs and executives at corporations. And they would see this little like brown girl, like who had like awkwardly fit into a suit and, you know, was teaching them about their leadership styles and consulting with them on different things. And I was not the person that they thought that they expected to walk into the room, right? They were probably waiting for some white guy in a suit, you know, went to Harvard, et cetera. And so I think that's taking that example into the industry. When we think of the term athlete, right, we probably think of some typical narrative, right? And so it's going to take some time to form a new bias of what that looks like. And so really just kind of how do organizations and brands authentically start to network and build communities with those people to be able to uplift their stories to where it does shine, where they are experts in whatever field they are. So I do have another brief example of I went on a recent trip down in Texas and it was with, it was a photo shoot, but it was also with a guide company. And there was three women and I think five guys. And it was a pretty tough river. It was pretty technical in the sense of the waterways and how it was, how it was. We put in, it was super shallow water, had to pull boats through these narrow channels. And then you got into these really huge pools where it was kind of almost like a lake. And then that's where like the epic fishing happened. And then you had to go through another narrow channel, pull the boat. And it was hard work. And there was some trees that were in the way where we needed hacksaws. And it was just kind of tough. And it was probably the first trip that I've been on where I felt equal to everyone where it didn't feel like, oh, the men needed to do X, Y, Z. You know, it was very much equity on the water. And I thought that was a really beautiful trip of, you know, what this can look like. And I think that's where it starts, is it starts within our own communities and how we treat each other as individuals and humans. And I think that hopefully can show. Luckily, it was a photo shoot. So maybe that will show in the photo shoot as well that there was equal sharing of power on that trip. And I thought that that was a really beautiful experience. And that's the things I wanna see show through.
Katie
Yeah, I think, kinda like what you mentioned, I think in an ideal world, there wouldn't need to be any sort of story about it because it would just be, like it's no different seeing one person on the water versus another. Like you don't think anything when you see somebody that looks different 'cause you're just like, why would I think anything of that? It's totally common for me to see this type of person on the water. But I think until that happens, I mean, when I go out, it's surprising when I see even another woman, let alone a person of color. I feel like most of the time the people I see are even a very specific age range. And it actually has moved, I think, a little bit younger. I've seen, I think when I go out at least, and maybe it's just my area, I see a lot of 25 to 35-ish dudes usually, which is not the classic typical old white do you think of. But it's still very much that person that I picture when I'm going fishing. If I see somebody that's not in that range, I notice it. And I think in an ideal world you wouldn't notice it. You wouldn't think anything of it. But like you said, I think we have a long way to get there because of the fact that it's still such an oddity, at least in my area, to see something like that. So hopefully we can move more toward that in the media that we're consuming. So I guess just to wrap up I wanted to hear the work you're doing. You mentioned in the in the document I sent you the Angling for All pledge with Brown Folks Fishing and I am familiar with the group but I'm not a part of it or anything. I don't know if you like what it what becoming a part of it involves or who can join or anything. So I'd love to hear like what you're doing with that and just tell me a little bit more about the group as well.
Erica
Sure yeah so Real Consulting I partnered with Brown Folks Fishing to co-create the Angling for All Pledge. And this is a way where organizations, guides, individuals, and folks just in the fishing industry all together can come together and it creates a benchmark for learning and a commitment to addressing racism and inequality in fishing and its industry . So I just read that.
Katie
I was going to say, I couldn't tell if you have it really well memorized or if you were reading
Erica
Yes (laughing) And so this is an opportunity where people can sign on. And basically what we're seeing right now is, or what I have been seeing since 2019 especially, has been, hey, there's this national discourse happening about equity, inclusion, and diversity. But I don't know what it means, and I don't know where to start. And so we've created an access for these folks to be able to really kind of lean into this work. And so we have folks go through a kind of like a workshop. It's anywhere from four hours to eight hours, and people can sign on for longer if they want. But it's just kind of how to get the conversation started within yourself or your organization. And the overall curriculum has a three, we approach it in three different areas. And this is in one session. And we really find that it's important for individuals to kind of look at their own identity. A lot of folks want to jump to action right away. We want to be the good people. We want to start creating more representation. We want to do it right now. And we want to be that good person, that good brand right now. However, we don't take a step back to look at who am I as an individual? How does my identity impact this type of work? And so really spending time with folks, really discovering themselves and things about themselves and how they move about the world. And, you know, and then also the second step is how to build authentic community. So then we have an understanding about how other people move about the world as well. You know, and what are some other access or barriers that people face? Or what are my access to resources? And how can I actually build authentic community with other folks that I haven't historically been in community with? And so we kind of help bridge that gap. And ultimately what we're getting at is two things. One is taking individual responsibility for our actions and our behaviors. And the second is building more compassion and empathy for others. 'Cause so often those are excluded within this type of work of justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion. And then the third step is what we like to call decolonizing the industry. And that's kind of where those action pieces come in. So now that we have a sense of who you are, how other people move about the world, other access and barriers that people face, How can we actually, what can we actually do about this? And so then we kind of help organizations either with strategic planning or branding or marketing or forming a DEI committee in their own organization. And so it kind of varies all over the place. And then we also start to strengthen the relationship with Brown Folks Fishing as well. So organizations give back to the community that have been historically excluded such as Brown Folks Fishing. So, and Brown Folks Fishing was started out as an Instagram. That was founded and created by Tracy Nguyen Chung. She is a Vietnamese American that is living in the Pacific Northwest and LA. And she's professionally a documentary filmmaker and just kind of, you know, she started out spin fishing, conventional fishing, and also was just like, hey, what's up with this industry? You know, bros be broing. And so how can we start to like, know that people of color are here, Black, Indigenous, and other folks in this industry are here yet we're so not represented in this space. And so that's kind of where that started and it's evolved into many different things. There's a partnership with Metro which is a nonprofit organization in Oregon that has sponsored different camps and different things like for example, a lab. We were able to recruit about 10 lab fellows And what the fellowship is, is folks have an idea that they want to pursue in efforts of conservation or fishing. And so they have a project that they want to do, but we supply the training, the funding and support around to where they can actually do these projects as well. So and then there's other things kind of going on. We support different, like if I wanted to do an event or whatnot that could be supported by Brown Folks Fishing. It's evolving and it's becoming more and more of like, "Hey, this is an area we can do," and whatever. It's kind of an interesting org that Tracy started just based off of an Instagram account.
Katie
Has it grown pretty big at this point?
Erica
Yeah. Yeah. Originally, there was about, I want to say, like 12 ambassadors all over the US and Canada. And collectively we started out with like 30,000 followers. And then, you know, starting an account has significantly grown. It's a pretty large account of good following. The hashtag is pretty popular with our communities of, you know, black indigenous and people of color. And it's been a really awesome way for me to build authentic community as well. People that hashtag I'm able to kind of like dig into their account and like, oh, you're in Colorado, let's go fishing. You know, and I've been able to meet, I'd say most of the friends I know today is people that I've met off Instagram or on the hashtag.
Katie
It is really nice when you find- I think the internet has really opened up avenues of meeting other people in your area because you don't even have to have contact with them really before reaching out. And you can just see, oh, you're 10 minutes down the road from me. Hey, what's up? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And tell me about your podcast. Maybe podcasts? Do you also host one with Tom Rosenbauer?
Erica
We do. Tom and I did a, we haven't, we've kind of put it on hold over the holidays and need to pick it back up, but it's called the Awkward and Clueless Show. So that's on live YouTube and Facebook. And so, yeah, we'd kind of talk about what it's like to get into fishing for beginners. And we answer a lot of newbie questions as well to kind of create more pathways for access.
Katie
Oh, that's awesome.
Erica
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty fun. I like that Tom calls himself clueless, considering he's been fishing his entire life and has written multiple books on fly fishing. He's like, "I'm still clueless." And I'm like, "I really like that about you, Tom." And so we kind of have a good chemistry and a good working relationship there, which he's an awesome guy that's also doing his awesome work in DEI work as well. But I host the Awkward Angler podcast and that is an authentic series talking about fishing, social justice, and storytelling. And that's with folks in the outdoor industry, but most of them do fish or have been fishing before. And so that started kind of-- that was a pandemic project. I've also kind of always wanted to have a podcast. But it was kind of, hey, this is a great time. These folks want to talk. And it was just kind of with friends of a normal conversation that I have in general. And I thought, what if I hit the record button and put it out into the world and see who would listen. And yeah, I have two seasons and working on a season three right now.
Katie
Are the seasons divided up by topic or anything or is it just you do a batch and then you give yourself a little break before you do some more?
Erica
Yeah, it started out as a batch 'cause I didn't know getting into the podcast world. So I thought, I don't wanna disappoint anybody. So I'm just gonna put a cap on this. But it ended up being the first season with some friends and kind of really diving into topics in the fishing industry and around diversity, equity and inclusion. And those are all with folks of color, Brown folks fishing ambassadors as well. And the second season, I've been getting a lot of questions and I would say the majority of my audience, both on Instagram and podcasts have been white women. And I've created spaces for them to ask questions. But also I've been in community with awesome ladies that are doing incredible work in the industry. And I thought it was important to highlight what they're doing. And hopefully that comes off as like, hey, you can do this too. You can be a leader in diversity, equity and inclusion work as well, no matter your identity. And so that's kind of the season two there.
Katie
Cool.
Erica
In the season three, I'm just kind of looking for more storytelling. I have a lot of different things that I've been experiencing over the last year, particularly with feminism and motherhood. And so I'm really passionate about getting some moms on the podcast and talking about an area that I have no idea about. And it's always just selfish for me of, hey, what do I want to learn about? And who can I talk to? And who'd be willing to educate me in a recorded conversation? So that's my approach. And hopefully, people also have these questions that I have.
Katie
Well, I can totally identify with that motivation because the podcast for me is also kind of like, "Hey, I'd like to learn more about this. Let me see if I can convince an expert to talk to me about it for an hour."
Erica
Exactly. Yes, absolutely. That's exactly it.
Katie
It's a lot easier to get someone to talk to you when you convince them that you're going to record it instead of just saying, "Hey, can you just take an hour of your time to chat with me?"
Erica
Yeah. And the questions come naturally because, like, you know, generally interested.
Katie
Right, right.
Erica
I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Tell me more."
Katie
Well if people want to follow you or any of the work you're doing or any of the groups you're participating with, where are the best places to find you on social media or on the web?
Erica
Yeah, I'd say I'm most active on Instagram @awkwardangler. However, email is the best way if you want to chat it up. But you can reach me at awkwardangler.com. And if you're looking for any type of social justice work or consulting, my website is consultreal.org.
Katie
Can people book you as a guide?
Erica
Yep, and that can be done through awkwardangler.com and we can set something up there.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Erica, this was a lot of fun. I really appreciate you taking the time for this. And maybe, we're only a couple hours apart, we might be able to find some time to meet on the water at some point.
Erica
Yay, absolutely, I would love that. Thank you for having me.
Katie
All right, guys, thanks for listening. forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.
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