Ep 73: Darkhouse Spearing in MN, with the Modern Carnivore Crew

This episode first aired on the Modern Carnivore Podcast, hosted by Mark Norquist. Mark was on Fish Untamed in 2021 (episode 51) and invited me up to MN to try my hand at darkhouse spearing. I decided to take him up on his offer this past January. In a nutshell, darkhouse spearing involves sitting over a large hole in the ice and throwing spears at passing fish. In reality, though, there’s much more to it, and we dive into it in this episode. This episode was recorded in a brewery after one of our days on the ice at -37 degrees.

Modern Carnivore Website: link

Modern Carnivore Podcast: link

Modern Carnivore Instagram: @modcarn

Waypoint TV

• Transcript

  Katie

  You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. this is episode 73 live from my recent darkhouse spearing trip to Minnesota. I just wanted to hop on here before we start to give a little intro to this episode. This episode was first released on the Modern Carnivore podcast with Mark Norquist. Mark was on my podcast a year or two ago at this point, and he invited me out to try Dark House Spearing in Minnesota. So I took him up on his offer this January, and we recorded this roundtable episode at a brewery one evening. And there are a handful of different folks on the episode who get introduced early on, so I won't do that again here. But I just wanted to introduce this so no one was confused as to why it sounds a little bit different this week. I was more of a guest on this episode than a host, but it was a really fun experience and a really fun episode. So I hope you all enjoy.

  Mark

  so we're up here in north central Minnesota and doing a little bit of dark house spearing and it's early January temp this morning was was it 

  Katie

  negative 37 was the lowest we saw in the car 

  Mark

  yeah that's cold that's really cold john you had you got a good little video of your your your boots being yep chipped

  John

  chipped away this the former slush now ice cap around my boots about an inch and a half two inches of ice all around my shoes when we got done setting up

  Mark

  it was brutal I don't think the snowmobiles really wanted to run I don't think the heaters wanted to run. The shacks were tough to fold out because they were wet and frosty from the day before. And then we got slush on the ice. So it was challenging. It was challenging, but it was fun, right? It was a great time. 

  John

  Great time. 

  Mark

  Great days. So we're going to talk about Darkhouse Spearing, and I think it would be great to start with Mr. Gunther here. So actually, why don't we go round and just say who's here. Let's start with this guy on my left.

  Alex

  Okay. Alex Gorman. I'm a graduate student at the University of Minnesota and also repping the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. I'm the club president at the University of Minnesota. So here with the BHA doing our dark house stuff.

  John

  Cool. John Kachorek. I write at Modern Carnivore. I'm also a BHA member and I enjoy Dark house spearing, I was into that when I was a kid. It's kind of the one sort of hunting and fishing thing I did my whole life. Yeah, I've been doing it for a long time. So I picked up a lot of stuff as an adult, but this one I've been doing for a long time. It's got a special place for me.

  Dave

  Dave Gunther. I'm a retired educator at Pequot Lakes High School. And part of my curriculum was, I taught my students, was decoy carving, fish decoy carving mostly. We did some duck decoys and stuff too. But, yeah, it was, and spearing was the one thing growing up on a dairy farm during the summertime. All you ever got to do was pitch hay bales. In the wintertime, my father and I would go, that was the only time we could fish. And that was why I'm, I guess, passionate about spearing. It was something I did as a kid and something I still enjoy doing.

  Katie

  And Katie Burgert, I am host of the Fish Untamed podcast, which is actually how I got connected with Mark. Had him on the show, I don't know, maybe a year or more ago and briefly discussed Dark House Spearing. He casually invited me up, and I remembered and saw that tickets were cheap and hit him up this winter, and here we are in negative 37-degree weather.

  Mark

  A little bit different from Colorado.

  Katie

  A little different from Colorado, but extremely interested in everything surrounding the culture of dark house spearing.

  Mark

  Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Well, happy to have you here. And yeah, we're here at Roundhouse Brewery. They were kind enough to give us this space to record in. And great beers. And so, Dave, I guess I wanted to start with you. You know, you talk about. What did I do? What did you do? Spoke up. You grew up on a dairy farm. You're retired now. You've got a long history of spirit going back to when you were a kid. You did it since you were a kid. John did it since he was a kid. Same for me. You know, you said you never did really any open water fishing just because, again, you grew up on a dairy farm?

  Dave

  Yeah, you know, once in a while we would get out. But, you know, most of the time, you know, a dairy farm, you'd daily till dark. It's seven days a week. You know, you had to make hay when the sun shined. If we weren't baling hay on the farm, we were baling hay for the neighbors. So fishing, you know, we never really did much for summer fishing. So in the wintertime, it was a time with my dad and my brother that we would go out. We'd do up chores and then we'd go out on the weekends and we could go out and sit in the spearhouse. It was always so much, it was like a magical world, and we weren't working. We were sitting there and eating sandwiches. I could sit on this thing behind me. Yeah, it was like a picnic. I mean, really, I mean, it was fun. We just got to go out there and relax and sit and spear fish. And it was just that whole magical world looking down in that big spear hole at a whole other world, like a big aquarium.

  Mark

  So we talked about dark house spearing before on the Modern Carnivore podcast and other stuff we do, but why don't you give for the casual listener, they're probably going, what is this? So how, when somebody asks you, what is this dark house spearing thing you speak of? How do you describe it?

  Dave

  Well, first thing I tell, when I taught it to my students at school, you know, I said, everybody's seen fish houses on a lake. And I said, you know, some don't have windows. Well, they think they just can't afford to put windows in them or something. or they're on a budget. But no, I told them those are dark houses. Those are spear houses. And the idea behind a spear house or a dark house is you don't want light in there because the light reflects through the ice and it comes back up through the hole. And it illuminates. It's just like a lighted aquarium. And the whole underground, underwater world is right. You can see crawfish going through and you can see just everything going on in a whole other world. And just sitting in there is relaxing. It's mesmerizing. The people that see it for the first time are just amazed. And, you know, wow. And my wife, Barb, is claustrophobic. She will not go in the spearhouse. She tried it once. She said, I'm out of here. She's back out watching her tip-ups. No thinking. So it's not for everybody. But it is enjoyable. It's just there's something that just draws you into it.

  Mark

  So have you done it your entire life, or is there a period of time when you didn't do it?

  Dave

  When I was in North Dakota going to college, no, we did not. There wasn't really a whole lot of time. I was on the wrestling program there and stuff, and we were busy. And North Dakota now does have spearing, and we try to make a couple trips out there every year. But that was about five, six years that I was away from it. And then I lived in northwestern Minnesota. When I first started teaching for six years, and basically we just fished walleyes up on Lake of the Woods. That was the closest lake to us around there. So spearing, I didn't do much of that until I moved down to the Pequot area. I got back into it.

  Mark

  So it's a winter thing. You're out on the ice. Most people these days, because of grumpy old men or other things, understand this idea of a fish house out on a frozen lake. You've painted the picture of no windows. You're in there, cut this hole in the ice, and it's pretty simple. You've got a few tools, right?

  Dave

  It was the poor man's way of gathering food in the wintertime. You know, you've got yourself a spear, you've got yourself a nice chisel, you've made yourself a wood stove or whatever you had to do. You don't have to, it's not renewable products in open water fishing. You're losing lures all the time. And, of course, in that market, too, this is the latest and greatest. You know, I've got to have this and I've got to have that because it's the newest, latest marketing thing. You know, well, this is the new lure to have or whatever. But, you know, summer fishing, you snag on something, you lose lures. You have to go back and buy and replace. In spearing, you buy one light-colored decoy and one dark-colored decoy, and everything else that you've got will last you your lifetime. You don't have to go back and buy more things.

  Mark

  What about when you snap your spear in the door, though, you know, like a fishing rod, and you've got to replace them every couple times a year?

  Dave

  No, just re-weld it. Bring it to my shop and weld it and take it back out.

  Mark

  That is the thing, you know, we've talked about this. That's the thing I do love about it is there's not a whole lot of commerce and industry around it. There's a lot of craft, and you're part of that. I mean, you make decoys.

  Dave

  In the decoy world, absolutely. Because you have your carvers, you have your people that are collectors, and collecting is big. You know, the older decoys in the market for them is unbelievable what some of these decoys will go for. The old, I call them the old masters, they used to carve, you know, back in the 20s and 30s. You have people that just carve. They don't fish. You know, there's not a lot of them, but they're out there. But most of them that do carve usually like to spear also. And the talent that is out there and the imagination and creativity involved. I look at some decoy carvers have a certain style. Other decoy carvers, everyone is a little bit different. That's how I am. I don't want to get into a rut, so to say, of making all my decoys one way. Every time I find a piece of wood, I can kind of see it in there, and I have to just remove it from that piece of wood and make it. But, yeah, the decoys are the big thing, I think. And a lot of people kind of get, you know, with decoys, there's so many different types of them. But all of a sudden you see when, hey, I got to have that decoy. Or there's a certain carver that you want to have one from or whatever, whether you're collecting or just for use. You were in my living room, you saw hundreds of decoys hanging from old spears from the ceiling. It's a sickness, I know.

  Mark

  So you're in the dark house, you've got the spear, you've got a decoy. So again, describe the purpose of the decoy and what defines a good decoy.

  Dave

  A good decoy is one that sinks. It floats down there. And all it is is an attractor. And I think part of it is the amusement for you, the person that's fishing, is how they swim. Some will have different personalities on the way they're weighted. Some will dart very fast. Some are kind of lazy. Some are super slow. And every decoy has its own personality when you drop it into the water and how it swims. Can that make a difference on a day fishing? Absolutely. You know, maybe I need something that's moving a little faster. Maybe I need one of those CM wiggle type ones where it looks like a wounded minnow. That may bring them in. I've seen fish sitting on the outside just off the bottom, sitting there looking at, just looking at that decoy. And I've turned around and brought it up slowly, hooked up another and brought it down. And they've come in and hit it. So color. It could be, so you've got different actions. A lot of different elements to it, but that's half the fun. I was just putting those decoys down there and watch them work.

  Mark

  So, John, I know you love decoys. You love spears. Same thickness. You just love the aspects. Yeah, exactly. What have you found in recent years? Like, have you always loved a certain kind of decoy? You've got your big one.

  John

  Yeah.

  Mark

  And that's different from the ones I use.

  John

  Yeah, so kind of an interesting story around, I carry two to three decoys with me typically. A lot of that was just the people we learned from used these type of decoys, Bruels. And they're very common in Minnesota. Bruce and Ellen were the couple that made them. Yes, Bruce and Ellen, Bruel. Watkins, Minnesota, I believe is where they're from. Yes. can't get that wrong with Dave sitting next to me here. I just felt the weight of the fact check on my left shoulder. And so anyway, they were some of the most well-known and best working. And there's a lot of them out there, but they're really high quality decoys. And up until a couple of years ago, I think you can still get them in sporting goods stores, the smaller ones. think some of the their descendants are still making but anyway back to this there's a big 14 inch one that we picked up at on the way to our annual ice fishing trip up to winnie bagoshish and in grand rapids and every year we'd see if they had them and then all of a sudden they didn't have them so then the whole the when are they going to make the the big red and white brewells again oh and my dad got to the point where he would whenever we were driving somewhere in Minnesota and there was a bait stop, a bait store, excuse me. We'd have to stop. And he'd ask, okay, well, cause everyone put their stuff away during the summer. They'd be like, well, they're all downstairs. We'd be like, well, do you have any of those red and white brew wells? And then a couple of times people went down and they'd find them and they'd sell them to them. But yeah, it was more a rare thing. And then there was also like the big fish, big decoy theory, which I don't know if it works, but it also typically got fish for me. So that's when I always start with, but I also, like, I'm piling them up pretty quick as I started writing these articles. I'll say that too.

  Mark

  It's a good excuse, right?

  John

  My wife was like, where is, who are you sending $140 to in North Dakota? I was like, well, just watch the mail. Art first. Research. Yeah, exactly.

  Mark

  Exactly. You know, you just, you just touched on something that, that I think is, is interesting, And that is, you know, Katie had asked today about strategy and about what works and methodology, et cetera. And again, that's another aspect of where I think everybody has their perspective. Everybody has their theories of what works. I only do it this way. I only use this size decoy, this color decoy. I always make sure X. But I don't think there's really, there isn't like a consistent school of thought that says this is the way to spear, which I love about it.

  Dave

  That's kind of the mystery part of it, which is nice because, and I know on certain lakes that I've been on, certain colors don't work.

  John

  Yeah.

  Dave

  I've found that to be true.

  John

  We were out here last year and you were like, quiet, there's a fish. I was like, what are you talking about? And then I just like said something and a fish darted out or I just like reached over for the spear. And you're like, no, you have to move really slow. I was like, no, you, what? And then I spooked a fish. And where I've speared, you can like almost tap dance on the hole on top there. And you won't spook them.

  Mark

  Right, right.

  Katie

  Okay, I can attest to the fact that the pike in this lake have telepathic powers to know when you've seen them. And they leave. One was slowly moving in today from the corner of the hole. And Mark hadn't seen it yet. And I saw just the snout. And I was like, oh, and it was gone. It was instantly gone. And I was like, how does anyone spear these things if they can hear you whisper to each other? And the whitefish didn't seem to be, they didn't seem to care at all. They didn't have a care in the world. What you did or said. Yeah.

  Mark

  Sailing through a little different.

  Katie

  Absolutely. Yeah.

  Mark

  Yeah.

  Katie

  I do have to say, I kind of, you know, my show is focused around fly fishing and that's mostly what I do. And I can really appreciate the fact that everyone has their own theory of why this decoy works. And, you know, there's no real rhyme or reason. In the same way that, you know, while fly anglers try to match the hatch, there's often just one that you pull out of your box and you just fish it because it feels right or it looks good. And flies are meant to catch fishermen, not fish, you know?

  John

  Yeah. I heard someone on a, it was like a Pheasants Forever thing or something. They were saying, like, we tend to hunt and fish memories. So like whatever worked for you is like what you always do. It worked before. Exactly. Yep. So it's like, like what, the things that we get stuck in and ruts and like the thing, the first move we always make is like based on some memory. And other people could say that's data like you use to make a well-informed decision, but you know, there's one in the same. Sounds more official though. Yeah. Exactly.

  Dave

  Well, we've got data. Oh, sure. Good for you.

  Mark

  So here in Minnesota, you can dark house spear for northern pike, lake whitefish, or rough fish, which could be different things in different bodies of water. But, you know, I grew up doing a lot of whitefish spearing. John, you're northern pike. And I think 99% of people are, if they're dark house spearing, they're going after northern pike. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I don't know many whitefish spears.

  Dave

  I would say so because you've got northern pike just about every lake, whereas whitefish are not as common.

  Mark

  Yeah, yeah. Certain lakes have more. So Dave, do you, in your spearing career, in your life of spearing, what have you primarily gone after? Northern pike or? It was always pike. Always pike. Okay.

  Dave

  Really got into the whitefish after I started fishing on cross lake. I fish also on the McKee, which is right across the road. It's handy. It's right there. Started fishing on cross mainly, and I have a couple houses on both, not this year, but most years I have houses on both lakes so that I have that opportunity to go after a different species. Used to go after eelpout. Now it's become a game fish. Really? I guess so.

  Mark

  I heard Matt say something about that, about tulipine and... Yeah, we were talking about that last night.

  Dave

  Yeah, it's become, now it's become a game fish. Oh, come on. What's the limit?

  John

  Is there a slot? 425. Yeah, you can't. 300 between 28 and 30.

  Dave

  Yeah, so now, so you can't take eel pout or tulipies, I guess. You can't spare them.

  Mark

  And that was something, and I never asked him. I wanted to ask Matt that because there is pout in there, in that lake we were fishing today, that unnamed lake. Yeah. And I was thinking about that because I was thinking for you guys, I'm like, if a pout comes in, I'm not sure if you could spear it or not. And so we were going to have to hold on.

  John

  So we saw one leopard-y tail.

  Mark

  We did. Okay.

  John

  And it was either a muskie or a eel pout. Right.

  Mark

  I don't think there's any muskie in that lake. It was eel pout.

  John

  Okay. It would have been an eel pout then because it was, yeah. I didn't see the real telltale tale of an eel pout. Burbot for some of you listeners out there, right?

  Mark

  Freshwater ling cod. Poor man's lobster. Poor man's lobster. It is so good. It is great.

  John

  You should tell the listeners at home who Matt is.

  Mark

  Yeah. So, well, Matt Miller, yeah. Matt and his girlfriend, Lee Nightsill, friends of ours, came down from Two Harbors, were spearing with us today. And unfortunately, they had to head back to get some dogs out of the kennel, so they couldn't join us tonight.

  Katie

  The only successful pike spearers on this trip. Yeah. Everyone else is trying to get a pike, and that's all they can get. And I think they were trying to get whitefish.

  John

  Matt really, really wanted a whitefish. He wanted a whitefish, he said last night. He got one. I gave him mine.

  Katie

  Yeah, he got one.

  Mark

  He took one home. Yeah, he took one home. But he took one home.

  Katie

  He should have been at our house this morning. Oh, wow. Oh, my gosh. We didn't cut the hole today, but we got in there, and three whitefish cruised underneath. Oh, really? Oh, yeah.

  Alex

  In tandem?

  Katie

  Yes.

  Alex

  Yeah. Wow. They were just strolling together, and we weren't even ready. It was when I was coming over. You would switch spots from our first hole, and so we weren't really actively sitting there with the spear. And all of a sudden, I looked down, and I'm like, oh, whoa, there's three giant whitefish just kind of cruising. There might have been two and then one other thing. Or was it three whitefish?

  Katie

  it was two and maybe a whitefish or we're not something but it was yeah it was and I had to hold myself back from throwing that spear I untied it was it was not tied to anything it was probably still all wrapped up but I had it in my hand and I i lifted and I was like don't do this don't lose this spear right now so I set it down and mark was like I'm really glad you didn't throw that.

  Mark

  I wouldn't have blamed you if you did, but I'm glad you didn’t.

  John

  Like the spears are, you know, you were talking Dave about the, the gear that, you know, I've had the same spear for 30 years. Right. And, they, you know, there's a rope on them that you tie off somewhere so that you can retrieve it. And there's a, usually a cover. So you don't, you know, injure yourself or any of your gear and bend the tines, bend the tines. Yep. But that's the kind of stuff that makes the sport special. They're made by blacksmiths and people. The best ones aren't mass produced. The best ones tend to be older. And you have to be ready for it. You can't just like, you know. It's a little bit of a ceremony to get ready to spear in a way.

  Dave

  And I know I've speared. My grandfather passed away in 1963. I've got his decoys and they sit on the shelf in the house. But I've always speared with his old spear. I mean, this thing's from back in the 30s and 40s. And, you know, up until last year, I do now have a Bell River spear. And that is very nice to use, but it's almost so pretty I don't want to drop it in the water.

  Mark

  Why did you let these guys use it today then? Yeah, one of these guys.

  Alex

  We're old pros now after our probably eight hours.

  Dave

  But, you know, like for myself, it was kind of a nostalgic thing. All my spear houses are very old. When I parked them out in front of these fancy houses over on the Whitefish Chain or wherever I might be, it looks like a slum out in front of there, but it made me feel bad about it. But it's just these old houses have so much memory, good memories in them. They were all old houses that we had at the farm. I brought them down here. I fixed it. My brother was going to burn them. Wow. Yeah. Burn them.

  John

  That's your really sentimental brother.

  Dave

  Yeah.

  John

  Right.

  Dave

  Exactly. Obviously, yeah. And, you know, the wood stove in my one spear house is the one that my wood, my metals teacher had back in high school. Oh, cool. When he passed away, his son-in-law gave it to me. You know, that's kind of the cool part. So you remember those people. So there's a lot of kind of a sentimental journey with it. The house we were in today, you guys came over and sat in. When I saw those come up for sale, I had to have one of those Heath houses. And after sitting in one of those, they're just, I mean, it's retro, man. It is so cool, the tar paper inside of it. It's just the old wood stove. If you've seen the dark house spearing print, this is what the painting was done after. And you can sit in there, and I actually have the print on the wall. You saw that. So you're sitting there, and I kind of says, this is cool. I mean, right down to every nail and whatever else. But, yeah, it's just kind of fun.

  John

  That big northern wasn't in the actual house, though. That was just in the picture.

  Mark

  Yeah, today it was.

  John

  That didn't show up. Well, you can only see the painting when the doors open.

  Katie

  I didn't know it was in there until we looked in from the outside.

  John

  That wasn't the one with the beer can on the bottom of it, is it? What's that? Isn't there one of those?

  Mark

  Oh, there is one, yeah. Prince that has the beer can on the bottom like the old-timers used to do. No, it's the pork and beans, isn't it, or something like that?

  Dave

  That's an interesting story because in the first one, it is looking down the spear hole. The next one is the side view of the fish under the ice.

  John

  With the spear going.

  Dave

  Coming down, and it shows the pork and bean can, and it had a Prince Albert can.

  John

  Yeah, okay.

  Dave

  He got in so much trouble about because littering the bottom of a lake. In the third one where he's pulling the fish off the lake in the sled, you see those same cans with spear holes in them like he poked them and dug them out and put them up on top. So he did actually remove them.

  Mark

  So look at those three prints. So talk a little bit about Les Kouba. So for those who are listening who don't know who Les Kouba is.

  Dave

  Les Kouba was originally from Hutchinson, Minnesota. He had a place up here on Hay Lake. I think he was on Upper Hay. Yeah. And anyway, his brother had, Ernie had the butcher shop, locker plant in Pine River. And anyway, he spent a lot of time up here. And he was a commercial artist. He did all the, if you've ever seen the Schmidt beer cans with all the animal beer cans, the scenic beer cans. Oh, cool. He was an artist for those. He created, designed the work for Old Dutch. Oh. Coca-Cola. Yeah. Heard of it. Yep. Heard of it. Little company. Yeah. I'm not sure if it was Jolly Green Giant or not too, but he was a very more of a commercial designer and artist, sign painter, got into doing wildlife art, and it was always interesting in his art, all of his paintings. It was 13 of something in it. There's always something of 13. So every painting, every print or every painting I see of a Les Kouba, okay, what is it, 13 of that, 13 of this? You're sitting there, ah, that's 14. Okay, so there's got to be something else with 13. So it was always a fun trick.

  John

  Did he ever say why that was? Or is that something that's commonly known or something that your art teacher I picked up?

  Dave

  No, it was something that he always did. He did that, that was kind of his trademark.

  John

  If you find all those things, is there treasure buried somewhere? if you solve all of it. You go to Upper Hay Lake and you find where that hole was. There's actually... The pike is still there. Gold bars underneath where that Prince Albert can was in the first picture.

  Katie

  You mentioned the beans and I saw the sign inside the dark house today that said absolutely no potato peels, beans, or shells down in the hole. And you had mentioned people sinking potatoes. Can we hear more about the dropping of food down in the hole?

  Dave

  The idea, potatoes are biodegradable, so that's not so bad, or eggshells too. A lot of times if you're in an area where the water's murky or you can't make out the bottom of the lake, if you're looking into the Great Abyss down there, you can't see anything. But using eggshells and putting them down there, it creates a contrast. And it lights up the bottom, the potatoes. Now you physically can see the bottom of the lake, and it makes a big difference. Otherwise, it's just looking into just nothing.

  John

  Yeah, especially early season before the water settles, too. You can have that.

  Dave

  And that's the reason behind doing that.

  Mark

  So that's why, like, John's hole today, it was the abyss. And that's tough to just stare at that, at just a black rectangle for hours. But that's why it was funny when yesterday we were cutting the hole, and Katie's standing there, and I peered down. And I just sort of said, okay, it's the right depth. I'm going to hope that it's a good spot. I can't really see down in there, so I cut the hole out. And as I pulled the blocks out, I peered down in there, and I said, yes, this looks great. And she goes, she's like, where are the fish? Where are the fish? She thought I was saying it was great because there were fish there. I'm like, no, the bottom looks beautiful, which is so important. And what was interesting about that spot, it was nice gravel, not a lot of weeds, and unfortunately, an aquatic invasive species, zebra mussels that has infested this lake, there were dead shells all across the bottom with the sand. So it was very light-colored bottom of the lake, which makes for a great contrast when that dark fish comes through. So it just makes it that much more viewable, you know, easy to see.

  Katie

  I mean, of all the holes we visited, ours, and then we visited Matt and Lee's, and then we were in the dark house on your lake. And, yeah, I thought ours was the most interesting view when you're looking down in there. Like, fish aside, there were some weeds, there were some shells.

  Mark

  I think Jeff. We didn't see your hole. That was Matt and Lee's.

  Alex

  So, I mean, interesting.

  John

  I don't know about. What was your take, Alex? Which one was the best from your perspective?

  Alex

  Well, you know, our hole, which meant ours yesterday, because I was with John, and, you know, we had a lot more foliage in ours. But it was a tasteful amount. Like a good composition? Yeah, it was a nice ecosystem.

  Katie

  Well, I think we had a tasteful amount of foliage, too.

  Alex

  Well, I speared some of it today, so that was, you know, we've got to see that close up. But both holes were equally, equally great. It sounds like you guys had a better spot.

  Mark

  I think Alex is being very diplomatic with his mentor here. So, Katie, Alex, your first time spearing yesterday and today. Yeah. What do you guys think? I mean, it's something new, something different. For our listeners who have never done this, like, what's your perspective on it? Alex, I'll start with you.

  Alex

  Yeah. So just, you know, before I kind of dive into that, you know, I grew up in Northern California, you know, in a rural area. But my family didn't hunt or my friends didn't. We did trout fishing in the reservoirs and the Sierras and the lakes. And so this whole world of really, you know, hunting and angling as a lifestyle is really brand new. And so, and also the fact that ice freezes over water and you can drive on it makes sense to my brain as physics works. But from a cultural perspective, driving my, you know.

  Mark

  You're pretty excited yesterday when you said, is my, I'm here with my explorer. Is it on the ice?

  Alex

  Yeah, my Ford, my little California, my California car is driving on ice. And so it's just the neatest thing. I mean, I just don't think I can say it enough. When Kate and I were talking about it yesterday, there's nothing like it. I mean, it really is, you know, it's, you know, I've done, you know, you took a squirrel hunting and, you know, I could kind of squint and be like, yeah, squirrel hunting can be kind of like grouse hunting. Sure. You know, they're both small and you're walking. and stuff. But really with, you know, it's, it's spearing is so interesting in that, Dave, you mentioned that, that window, that, that hole you cut is such like an ethereal window, you know, and it's an aquarium and it's just so entertaining and mesmerizing. And, John, you said, what was that, that spinning thing? Oh, the teaser. Yeah. I mean, talk about mesmerizing. I mean, I could, I could watch that all day. I mean, and, uh, luckily we, we both got on the board with with whitefish which was just I think we both both have mentioned or at least you know for it there's just weird like blackout like totally instinctual and something so wonderfully primitive about you know I have a sharp pointy object and I'm going to I'm going to stab my food and it's just such like a you know you know and it's you know it's not like it's not like deer you gotta wait for it to stop like no this fish is moving I have to act now and If I don't, it's going to go. And so it's just a cool just, you know, you connect.

  Mark

  You had quite the thrill from what John said, too. It was like.

  John

  Yeah. He, there was a whitefish that, for folks who don't spear whitefish, they don't tend to come into the decoy and, you know, look at it and kind of, you know, sit around or loop around too much. Interestingly, this year, they were coming in at the level of the decoy more. Last year when we saw them, they were cruising on the bottom under the decoy, and it just seemed like random chance that we were getting.

  Mark

  Just passing through, yeah.

  John

  This year they were coming at the level of the decoy and sort of, you know, coming in at sort of an angle, never really stopping, you know, maybe slowing down a little bit. So we saw one or two, you know, we didn't get a shot off, or we got bad shots off.

  Alex

  You got a bad shot off first. I mean, there was that, you know, two or three fish when we, like, first sat down, we're like, oh, there's fish. Yeah. Then, yeah, you had your shot that, you know, people had shots that missed.

  John

  Yeah. So, yeah, there was one on my side that I was like, it wasn't coming through. So I had that side of the hole. But then there was the first one that Alex got was in the backside of the hole, this rectangular hole we had cut. And by the time he threw it, we couldn't see the fish.

  Mark

  No.

  John

  So it came through. It never really got directly underneath us. It was still probably two feet from the decoy when it was closest. And I was like, well, take your best shot at it. And he lined up with his offhand and kind of half pool cued, half like javelin throw and just nailed it. Center tying right through the back of the whitefish. And it was great because I was like, I think you might have him. Oh, I feel him. Yeah. Wobbling on the end of the rope.

  Alex

  It was great. Oh, it was so exciting. I mean, yeah, you just got done explaining like, well, you know, the ideal setup situation is, you know, you see the dorsals and, you know, you want that center tine right behind the head. Yeah. I was like, all right. Yeah. Yeah. I can do that.

  Mark

  I said, when you told me that, I said, wow, John's got the most detailed spearing method I've ever heard. I'm just sort of like, you know, just get behind the ears, right? Behind the gills. He's like, center tine.

  John

  I'm detailed because I know fish don't have ears.

  Mark

  Except for the pike in that one spot.

  Katie

  I'm not sure what you're asking me to do here, but I don't see any ears.

  John

  Some people call it details.

  Mark

  Yes. Other people call it anatomy. Well, it's like with memory. So, Katie, how about you? First, second day of spearing. Again, you flew halfway across the country because you called me up and said, Hey, remember me? You offered to take me spearing and I want to go spearing. I'm going to fly halfway across the country to do this.

  Katie

  You're like, oh, crap. I forgot I invited this person. Well, I want to start by just saying it's kind of funny. So Alex did the same throw today, but instead of forward with the pool cue, he threw it backwards underneath the ice we were under and got one. He's just Mr. Trick Shot over here. He hasn't seen a single fish he hit.

  Alex

  No, I haven't. I was saying that earlier today. I have not. You got that one too? Yeah, and it's just this weird just like, you know, just calming experience and then blackout.

  John

  It's just that reptilian part of your brain where you're just like, ah, there it is.

  Alex

  And both times I'm like, there's no way, there's no way I'm hitting this fish. Wow. And we're like, oh, hey, look.

  Katie

  Well, and meanwhile, I want the fish to be right underneath me, perfectly centered, or I'm not throwing. Because I think Mark had just said, you know, it's not ideal if you're kind of throwing off to the side. And so I heard that and said, I don't throw sideways at all. So I see the fish go past and I wait for it to come back. And he said that it's not typical for the fish to kind of circle back around. The white fish.

  Dave

  They're going to keep cruising right through.

  Katie

  But we had a couple that did, and I lucked out. Allegedly.

  Mark

  Allegedly, yeah.

  Katie

  It was crazy.

  Mark

  I mean, and that's where her patience, I told her, her patience paid off. I know, it's my knee hitting the leg of the table here. I put myself in the wrong spot.

  John

  We all got a stern talking to about not being loud on this table.

  Mark

  And then I'm the one in the table.

  John

  And I got the eyeball for, like, sliding my pint glass to form up here. And Mark's over here telling me slappers.

  Mark

  Table slappers. So Katie's like, okay, here comes a white. I said, here comes a whitefish. She doesn't see it at first, and then she sees it. Okay, she's getting ready. she holds tight I'm like great, that's fine she didn't take a throw she wasn't comfortable with but it was a whitefish so it's gone I'm like well let's just wait and see about 10 seconds later comes back around right in there and she takes him right just right behind the gills so it was a perfect shot. The ears. The ears, exactly That's what he breathed That was a beautiful fish Really nice fish Beautiful fish. Just perfect size.

  Katie

  Well, and I think it happened for at least two. So I've got three fish total. And at least two of them I held off and thought, oh, crap, I blew that. And then it came back. And I don't know if that's just luck on my part that it came back.

  John

  I have an interesting theory on that, or observation, I should say. I saw this one Northern that had a, this was years ago, but it had a really weird, somebody had missed it with a spear and it had a nick at a certain part in its body. So it had a very distinct wound. All right.

  Mark

  Somebody that threw a spear like Alex usually. Yeah. And missed. No. Threw a spear like you. Alex would have hit it.

  John

  Ooh. Sorry. Sorry.

  Mark

  I think I threw a spear once this weekend. Yeah.

  John

  Sorry. But anyway, I saw that fish eight different times that day. Because, you know, I think my theory is that they kind of have their core area and they cruise around.

  Mark

  They have a territory.

  John

  And, you know, you'll catch them. They're like, oh, I remember looking at that. Maybe I could eat it this time. You know, their brain isn't that big. Right. But I do remember seeing that fish time and time, like repeatedly the same day. And I've even seen on another occasion the same fish the next day. Wow. Which is like another one that had like a distinct scar on it or something on a really bright day in a really clear lake you can see. And, you know, it came back almost the same time the next day.

  Mark

  So is that your theory on the whitefish coming around again?

  John

  Yeah, I think they might have like a core area they cruise.

  Katie

  This one wasn't like an hour later. This was the fish, you know, swims through the corner of the window and five seconds later circles around.

  Mark

  Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. No, it like turned like a pike. That's where it's like, you see pike come around back. That's pretty cool. But yeah, exactly. Rarely, rarely whitefish. They're usually just sculling right through.

  Dave

  You're sitting there and all of a sudden you see them on the right side of the spear hole and you better be ready because by the time you grab the spear, they're out already. Unless you're out.

  Alex

  Yeah, see, that's where I'm just, I must be just be too slow or something. because then I'm just like, I need to throw because that. Too good. Well, yeah, I can't, you know, have to let y'all, you know, have some semblance of competition.

  Dave

  And, you know, you were talking too about the territorial thing. I remember years ago I had a little northern, about 16-inch northern. Yeah. And something had happened to him. He was a little, I'm not kidding you, I can't make this up. He looked cross-eyed. So we called him Norman the Northern. and he comes swimming through and he's kind of a gimpy looking little guy. We didn't have that hard to swim. He was ears offset.

  Mark

  He kind of swam through.

  Dave

  I'd be over in my spare house, my buddy would be in there. That was back when he had the little CB radios. Yeah.

  John

  The walkie-talkies. The Nextel ones or the real CBs?

  Dave

  This is way before that. Oh, cool. You got them in a box of cereal or something.

  John

  Oh, cool.

  Dave

  You could barely understand what he said, but it was cool. We had them, but anyway. Hey, Norman's over here. Pretty soon, Norman will be over in the other spiral. So he was our pet. Don't spear Norman.

  Mark

  Don't spear Norman. So I was just telling Katie today about the risk, which I never mentioned to you guys, actually. I was going to mention to both of you of the risk of a muskrat coming up. And I've never had it happen myself. Oh, God, yes. John Davey. Never. I've never had it. You haven't either.

  Katie

  Oh, you said it was kind of common.

  Mark

  It is relatively common. Really? I just, I mean, you know enough people, my brothers had it happen, my dad had it happen. I've just never, I myself have never had it happen.

  Dave

  It kind of depends on what lake you're on. Yeah. If you've got bank rats or if you've got muskrats on the lake, yeah. And what is funny about that is you've cut your spear hole, you've got your little house sitting here, it's nice and dark. And when you see a northern or any other fish, they're down about three, four feet. Yeah. These little buggers are right below the ice. their back is rubbing against the ice because there's air pockets for them to breathe and they float so they dive under and they're just stuck to the top of the ice so when they're swimming along just happy and all of a sudden they bounce right up I mean they will literally bounce right up in the hole and you're up there it scares them as much as it scares you they go back down they splash back down. Beaver, otter. Have you seen a beaver come through your spear hole? No, I haven't, but a friend of mine did. Really? Oh, yeah, he went right out the door. But it came up and hit in the splash, and there's water dripping all over. Oh, my God. Wow. Have you seen otter in their spear hole, too? Yeah. We have a lot of otter on us on a McKee, and we've had them come up in.

  Mark

  That would be a little bit terrifying.

  Dave

  That's cool.

  Alex

  Okay, so that's good to know for the next time.

  John

  dark house either. No. So I saw someone, one of the spearfishing online communities and this muskrat came up and went into this guy's spearhouse and started, he had a fish sitting on the ice and just ate the tail off the fish. Sure, it went back down and left. Was that right?

  Dave

  That's awesome. We've had times where we've come back after two, three days and that hole's open and they'll start building that as a shelf for feed. Totally. It'll just be full of, you know, cattails and everything. I got to clean everything. It's all frozen in there. You got to clean it out. Yeah.

  Alex

  I can imagine. I mean, not totally shifting gears. We were talking earlier about the kind of the sentimental craft part of Dark House Spearing, which I absolutely love. And your Dark House, they were here today, Dave. It's just, it's so warm. It was, I mean, with that stove, it really feels like you're stepping back, you know, It's very. Into a whole nother, I mean, just the, yeah. Can't beat that wood stove. No, the wood stove. I mean, like I took so many layers off. I was like, you know, this is great.

  Dave

  You know, people look at me and say, oh my God, you go out and sit in a fish house out there all day long, stare down a hole. I go, it's my relaxing time. I mean, you know, of course, saw my vintage Panasonic radio over in the corner. I was like, you got your radio, you got your coffee. Yeah, I got my, you know, I got my little cook stove. I can cook on top. I got my spam. I eat spam once, one season. That's now. But anyway, but, you know, so. Dark house spamming. Dark house spamming. But just to listen to that crackle of that wood stove, it's just, it's relaxing. Totally. It smells way better than propane.

  Mark

  Doesn't it? Yeah. Good point. Very good point.

  Alex

  And it's dark. I mean, like, those tents that we were using the last couple of days were definitely dark, like coming from outside. Oh, yeah. Like a plywood?

  Mark

  Dark. That house that you have, Dave?

  Alex

  I mean, it was, like Katie was saying, I don't think you saw that print on the wall.

  Mark

  I didn't see the print until we got out and looked back in.

  Alex

  Yeah, until afterwards, because you can see nothing except the hole you're looking at, which is also just some of the, just cool. There's nothing like that. I was telling my, you know, because my folks were like, what are you doing? You know, you have a... They were concerned.

  Katie

  There were a lot of concerned people.

  Alex

  What are you doing in Minnesota?

  Katie

  I had a lot of people get really hung up on the spear itself. They thought it was a spear gun like you would use in the ocean.

  Mark

  Yeah, but it's winter.

  Katie

  And they're like, is it like a trident? And I was like, yeah, I mean, kind of. Plus four. Plus a bunch of other times. A septent.

  Dave

  A septent. Yeah. And people just, you know, I mean, and I've had, I've taken a lot of people out and, you Once they've done it, they go, oh my God, this is so cool. To experience it is the one thing. One thing I was going to mention too, when you're talking about where do you fish, placement. Remember, if you're fishing for a northern, a northern is a predator. A predator will chase something into a corner. They will corner it. Now think of a corner as being tipped one turn. They're not going to chase something in 30 feet of water. They're going to chase it up into a narrow area. So whenever you find a ledge that comes up where there's a drop-off is a good area to set up. And weeds, like where I'm at now, I put that there because that was the only place with a flood ice I could do it. But if you can have some weeds and have a drop-off area, they'll come from the deep and chase it into the smaller area to capture it.

  Alex

  Makes total sense. Well, that's where, you know, you and Katie both yesterday and today were a little further out into, I don't know, not the bait we were in more towards the main body of the lake. But, John, where we were yesterday and where Matt and Lee were today, that's what you were saying was we were on that slope and there were, you know, I think you were calling them cabbages down there, those weeds. Cabbage weed, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Dave, that makes a lot of sense of that. Totally.

  Mark

  So, Katie, what was the intrigue with Dark House Spearing that caused you to say, I want to do this? You're going into this master's program in hydrology, and you're like, I want to do one thing before I go deep on this program, and that is Dark House Spearing. Why?

  Katie

  I think it was the uniqueness of it in the country. I mean, if I want to pick up a new type of fishing tomorrow, I can do that from Google. I can say, okay, I'll go buy this type of rod and I'll buy this type of lure and I'll go give that, I'll rig up this way and give it a try. And this seemed like the type of fishing or, I mean, it's hard to even call it fishing. I kind of wanted to get into that. We kind of got off, you know, your question of what did you think of it? And it reminds me a lot more of like archery hunting and watching a deer walk past because that's what it's like.

  Dave

  It's not angling. No.

  Katie

  It's a whole other. It's hunting. Yeah. And I just, you know, I was just thinking about the fact that you threw that out there. And part of it's the culture behind it. The fact that it's so unique to, I know it's not only in this part of the country, but it seems very prevalent in this part of the country versus elsewhere. And also it's just so inaccessible, I guess, in that if I didn't come do it with you, I probably would never do it. And it seemed, you know, like the perfect combination of my passions of hunting and particularly archery hunting and fishing and being able to combine those two in a very active, you know, you are a predator here, not just passively waiting for a fish to take your line. But, you know, if you don't make a move now, you will miss that fish. And honestly, it was kind of nerve wracking. I think the reason that I've been maybe more patient than Alex, and I think the longer it went, the more I was willing to throw a little bit off kilter. I got a little bit more confident with it, is that I'm used to the idea of waiting for something to stop. If a deer is walking through, you don't want to shoot while it's walking.

  John

  Did you do a doe bleat and the fish kept going?

  Mark

  Why did the fish, if it has ears, why didn’t it stop?

  Katie

  But yeah, you're like, you're like kind of subconsciously hoping that it stops. And then when you realize it's not going to, it's now or never. And if you don't take your opportunity now, and that's what I think Alex mentioned, you almost kind of black out. And I think the same thing, instincts take over. And if you don't throw now, it's either throw and miss or don't throw at all. And it's better to throw and hope for the best than to never throw. So it's just so exhilarating when it happens.

  John

  You know, if you have a good spear, you don't lose many fish. If you hit them, if you get one tine in most fish, you can usually get them up.

  Katie

  Mark and I had a 100% success rate on this trip. How about you guys?

  Mark

  We didn't do any spear and release.

  Dave

  No, no. I was just thinking about that too, mentioning about spear and release. It's kind of like, you know, I remember a joke about waterfall hunting, you know, shoot and release. Throw it back in the air, you know. But one thing we always did, you know, we always talk about catch and release, and you pull up a walleye from fairly deep, and then, oh, take pictures, you put it back in water. Is there a guarantee that fish will live? I see muskies. Torture and release. Exactly. Yeah. Where in dark house spearing, it's decoy and release. Yeah. We do not do anything to that fish in water. We have not hooked on to it. It does not struggle. It is our option. Yep. It is our decision to harvest that animal or not. Yeah, exactly. Otherwise, it keeps right on swimming.

  Mark

  I love the way you said that. Absolutely. You know, and yesterday, Katie didn't take a shot on one of the fish. And I think it was the second one. I think it was the second whitefish that came through. And I don't know if we weren't ready. I don't remember exactly what it was. And it just came through. But I was just excited. It was so fun to have that second fish coming through. And I said to her, I said, wasn't that thrilling? Just again, just to have that sighting of this giant fish right below you. And you can do that. Absolutely. And I think we were talking about it today. Katie and I were talking about exactly this topic because I got asked to speak for this fishing club next month on the idea of killing fish because it's mostly catch and release people who are part of this club. And it is something where I think there isn't any one answer. Every person has their own perspective on it. For sure. But I think you can't just look at this as something that is, yeah, I don't know, in a negative light, if you will, as a different thing from angling saying that it doesn't have an impact.

  Katie

  Well, that pike today, you know, we had a pike come in. I mentioned it earlier that it kind of eased in. We saw its snout, and I made some sort of excited noise, and it left. And it ended up coming back, you know, maybe 30 seconds later and just smashed the decoy. Oh, really? Yeah. Isn't that wild? It's amazing how fast they can move. It was so exciting. And I didn't get a shot that, you know, the decoy string was in the way. And I didn't feel like it was an ethical shot, if you will. Yeah, exactly. So I didn't do anything. But I was like, that was so exciting to watch the pike come in and hit that decoy. Like that in itself was worth sitting there and watching. Like, who else gets to see a pike actively, you know, attempt to eat something?

  John

  Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, it's like, you don't get to see what happens when, you know, you have your line in the water.

  Katie

  I guess with fly fishing, it's different.

  John

  There's a little more sight involved, but there's still a little bit of...

  Katie

  There's a tug. Yeah, you feel it.

  John

  You don't see it. It's mostly, you got one sense engaged, right? And to have this whole other sense visually engaged and, you know, you have, yeah, it's just a whole different way of doing it.

  Dave

  You see them where they'll come in like a log. Yes. And they'll come right up to it. Yeah. And then there's a lot of a log coming in. Yeah, exactly. Other times where you see they'll come in and I mean, before you can even, they've got that decoy. They'll take it and thrash it and they will just rip it. And you'll see paint flying off the decoy. Yeah. So if it's a one made out of basswood. Yeah. We were talking about that earlier. Anyway, but then from there. This one's cracked. Yeah. And it's, it'll, it'll take it right out of the hole. It is gone. It's taken it out. Oh God. And then you start pulling and you feel it tugging.

  John

  Yeah.

  Dave

  You start pulling it back in. There he is. And then it'll let go, or else you pull it in, then hopefully you can spear it.

  John

  Wait, you've had one come, and it's tugging on the decoy still? It has let go. Really? Yeah. Wow. I've never had that happen. That's awesome. I haven't either. That was weird. That's weird. Yeah. So it'll take the decoy and run. Yeah. And then, wow.

  Dave

  I just grab it. See, I've got that retractable. Yeah, yeah. That retractable spool, that retractable fly fishing. Yeah. That's what I use. So if it does grab it, it can go. And then I can start pulling it back in my hand.

  Alex

  Well, let's hope our monster pike tomorrow doesn't do that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or maybe we want that because that's exciting. And I think that, you know, Katie, what you were talking about, like, who else gets to see that? I think that kind of plays into the more of hunting aspect of dark houses. Yeah, you get to choose. I'm taking this animal. Right. Versus with, you know, with traditional angling. It's like, oh, that thing, that has bit my hook. I'm bringing it up if I want to release it or not.

  Katie

  You wait to see what the fish does, and then you react versus observing and making the decision yourself.

  Alex

  Yeah.

  Dave

  Like sitting in a deer stand, you know, bow hunting, and okay, no, I'm not going to harvest this animal. I'll let it go, or I'm going to take this one. Same thing's true there.

  Alex

  Yeah, well, and sometimes it's just so cool to, you know, and I haven't seen any pike yet. I am northern-less, but I've seen much, much to John's chagrin. But just those whitefish kind of just, they're kind of slow. They're kind of just cruising along like they've got nothing better to do. Exactly.

  Katie

  They're slow, but it's also so fast. You're like, I've got three seconds to make a decision.

  Mark

  It's so slow you don't even realize.

  John

  Yeah, you're like, all the fish. The northerners move you in more methodical than that. Do they really? Yeah. The ones you were talking about, sometimes they'll come in and rise slowly up to the bait, kind of look at it, kind of go off. And then maybe they'll make a big circle. They'll come back around. Sometimes they'll nudge it a little bit. Oh, okay. That was me touching my mic, the sound of a northern nudging it. That was, okay.

  Dave

  But it's amazing. If you've ever, most people never get to see this, how a northern, when you think of how slender their body is, how they'll swim in and how they can stop on a dime and give you eight cents change back.

  John

  Yep. I mean, stop. How do they do that in the water? And then sometimes from that stop, they'll coil up like a snake. You were saying that. Yeah, they load up all that kinetic energy and then just shoot right out.

  Alex

  It's nuts. I don't know if, just for clarification, and this is something I've learned in the past month, northern and pike are synonymous as a northern pike. Northern pike. Just for those listening who are like, well.

  John

  There are other pike out there, but. Do they really? Well, yeah, they don't get called pike that often. They call it walleye pike.

  Dave

  Walleye pike. Then you have the chain pickerel, which is a little bit smaller, but, you know. It's like red and white chain pickerel, right? I think something like that, yeah.

  Mark

  So, Katie, you are a fly fisher, fly angler, fly... 

  Katie

  It doesn't matter. 

  Mark

  It doesn't matter, exactly, as we discussed. Frequent flyer. Frequent flyer.

  Katie

  I think that might be the new phrase.

  Mark

  I think you're going to have to change the name of your podcast.

  Katie

  The frequent flyer.

  Alex

  The frequent flyer, I mean...

  Dave

  Time's fun when you have flies.

  Alex

  Yeah, I mean, I'm dropping out of school. that's what I'm doing. I'm going to start a rival podcast. So, so in the fly fishing community,

  Mark

  there's a pretty strong catch and release ethic. Um, and what's your perspective on that relative to now coming out here doing this? And I mean, obviously you don't have an issue with, with killing fish, but maybe talk a little bit about that.

  Katie

  So I've, I've never been strictly catch and release as a kid. You know, I did a lot of smallmouth bass fishing. And that was all catch and release because I was a kid. I didn't know what to do with it. And my family didn't really do a ton of fishing or hunting. So it wasn't, I didn't have anyone to take the fish home too. So I just, you know, throw it back and continue on. And when I started fly fishing, I feel like I was more indoctrinated, I guess, into the catch and release world because that's what's pervasive in the fly fishing community. And there's definitely fisheries that I believe should be catch and release. Absolutely. Our native cutthroat, I will not kill a cutthroat trout in Colorado because they've got enough struggles as it is. I don't need to add on to that. You could argue that I'm contributing by going out and harassing them with a hook in their mouth, but that's another conversation, I guess.

  Mark

  Right, right, right.

  Katie

  But, and I will say most of the fish I catch, I do release partially because it's, you know, I don't need to go through the hassle of keeping every fish I catch when a lot of them are five to seven inches long. And there's a lot of reasons to release a fish, but I'm by no means anti-keeping fish as long as it's within the sustainability of the fishery and within legal regulations. And in the past couple of years, I've gotten more into keeping fish, partially because I value the idea of providing my own food, knowing where it comes from. And also, I would like to provide a, it sounds egotistical, but like an inspiration to other fly fishermen who might be a little worried about keeping fish and how that's going to look. And I would like to just let people know that it's not terrible to keep a fish when it's sustainable and legal. And I wouldn't want people to not keep something because they think it's going to bring social stigma to them. Because I don't understand why that would be an issue. So I've kind of moved more toward when I can keep a fish and I have the means to keep it. You know, I have ice or whatever it takes to keep a fish and keep it good until I get home to keep those fish. And I was actually telling you, I don't share a lot of fish pictures on social media. But I actually try to post pretty much every fish I kill just to provide that, I don't know, inspiration to people, I guess, in the fly fishing world. That keeping fish is a great way to provide food for your family, great way to connect with your food, way to make fishing more immersive for yourself and not just like a passive activity, but more of a way to immerse yourself in the sport. So I've kind of moved more toward keeping fish when I can, if that's an option. So that's also partially why I was interested in this, the dark house spearing, because it does get me kind of more away from the purist. I just take, you know, catch and release pictures of trophy fish and release them and more toward a, you know, this is a very primitive, and fly fishing isn't necessarily as primitive as something like dark house spearing, but people have been catching fish to sustain themselves for thousands of years. And I think it's good to keep that in people's minds as they go out.

  Alex

  Yeah. And primitive in no way implies of lesser quality, but of just, I think, a more simplistic. And I can't remember if John or Dave, you mentioned, you buy a Spear and you have that for the next 30 or 40 years. Yeah. It's just so cool.

  Mark

  Or three generations. Yeah. Or three. Yeah. I mean, exactly.

  Alex

  How cool is that? But yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really cool point, Katie. I mean, that's how, you know, the trout fishing for rainbows that we did growing up was me and my cousins and my uncle would take us out. And the only way we went fishing is when we were camping. And what we caught, we ate. So this, you know, I never really, I didn't grow up with the concept of catch and release because we went fishing. Because it was like, okay, we're camping in the Sierras for a week. You know, yeah, we have our other food. But when we're going to fish, if we get a fish and there's, you know, I have four siblings and three cousins. So there's eight of us plus my uncle going out for trout. You know, you get 10 fish or so, then that's what we're eating. So, yeah, you know.

  Mark

  I think there's an aspect of catch and release. And again, not coming, you know, being down on catch and release. No, there's nothing. No, yeah. But I think there's an aspect of it that eliminates the best and most important essence of what it is to be out there and pursuing this food, you know. And that is why we as a species started fishing, was to eat. Was to eat. That was the original intent. And so if we take the original intent out of it, and now you sort of trivialize it to a superficial thing, I think, is the risk.

  John

  But it's good because it keeps slot limits and catch and release and all those things like preserve, right?

  Mark

  Absolutely. So it's a good back and forth.

  John

  You know, like where musky fishing is now in Minnesota compared to 20 years ago, because it's become almost exclusively catch and release.

  Mark

  Absolutely.

  John

  I'm not here, like, you know, representing them in any way. But when one hand washes the other, it's such a nice balance because it gets more people into it. It allows you to, you know, enjoy it. And just like, you know what, I don't feel like cleaning fish, but I kind of feel like going out on the lake. yeah that's great yeah absolutely

  Katie

  well that's obviously how catch and release came to be I mean I'm sure people were fishing for food at some point

  John

  a lot of lazy dads out there, we're like we need something other than “lazy”. I got it catch and release pass me another beer we can stay out here longer let's go catch somemore sunfish kids

  Katie

  we only got four today we'll have to go back out yeah I mean it's there's no There's no denying that it's absolutely a blast to be fishing all day. I totally understand why catch and release exists, but I think to assume that that's the only way to do it is just depriving yourself of one of the greatest joys of fishing. Just to come home with something to provide yourself or your family.

  John

  Yeah, that fish sighting in a dark household never gets old. The tug on a line never gets old. and then like cooking a meal that you saw from that you procured yeah exactly that you saw from a to z and your family or your friends enjoying it that feeling never gets old

  Alex

  absolutely well it's just you know the the cool thing I was thinking earlier with with you know as is dark house angling is it hunting hunting angling you you can't you know when you're hunting big game small game upland along the line of catch and release you can't unshoot a deer you know you can't you can't release a deer after you've you've pulled that trigger you've released the arrow so I think that aspect of my best friend super super into steelhead fly fishing in the pacific northwest and I i think he enjoys the the the dance with the fish absolutely more so than you know he'll take every other one and eat it and have a good time. He'll smoke them. But he really likes that back and forth, that dance with the fish, which is, I think, great. And I've got a few friends who, their thing, what they do in the summers is they go into the High Sierra and they'll fly fish for goldies, for golden trout. Yeah. And I guess if they took every golden trout they got, I mean, there's like three of them in the Sierras. So they're releasing every three of them every time they get them. So it's, yeah, like I think you put it well, John, you know, they're washing each other's hands, yeah.

  Katie

  So, Mark, I kind of want to take over in that I want to ask you, like what's it, I mean, I'm sure we're not the first people you've brought and introduced to Dark House Spearing. What's it like?

  Alex

  We're certainly the last. After this trip.

  Katie

  Just close that door.

  Mark

  It's a little mentoring thing.

  Katie

  What's it like being in that position and being there with somebody's first spear? Because I've been there when people catch their first fish, and it's obviously really exciting, but it's kind of a completely different activity, kind of like we discussed before. Is it just as exciting for you to watch somebody else spear? Are you kind of itching to grab that spear yourself? What are you feeling when that's going on?

  Mark

  Even though, as I told you yesterday with that first fish, I almost grabbed the spear from you when you couldn't see it. And I'm like, it's right there. I should take it. Absolutely. You know, I loved seeing you guys catch and spear these fish. And that is, that's a really enjoyable part of it. And Dave, I know Dave's done this for a long time and has taught so many people. giving back in terms of all things with this community and you too, John. And it's just, it's something that is really fun to see, like you guys, again, over the last couple of days, just the excitement of realizing what this experience is of having your eyes open to go, wow, I now understand it. I've heard about it before, but now I get it. And I've actually been part of it and I've had some success with it. And I mean, just here, and I knew you were, you were all in right from the start, Katie. And it was just, let's see, you flew across the country. Yeah. Yeah. Pursued. Yeah, exactly. Um, no, but it was, it was just like, you know, and, and then you got that first fish and you're like, that's made the trip. And so one moment there made the whole made the whole trip worthwhile but it's it's just fun to be to be part of it and to have people understand what it is and I think whether it's hunting or fishing or forging or anything where you can really take it through that full experience and and I think especially with hunting and we talked about it a little bit earlier it is this is dark house spearing I think is more like hunting than it is fishing. Totally. And, um. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. It's just, and that's, and that's, you know, I would call it hard water hunters a lot. And it's like, um. Hashtag. Hashtag hard water hunters. Yeah. And it's, and I always think with hunting is, you can't explain to somebody what it is like to hunt. They can only experience it.

  Alex

  Yeah.

  Mark

  to truly understand what it is, the complexity of it. Because I think a lot of times people have a difficult time understanding, okay, if you, let's take deer hunting, if you admire that animal, if you love that animal, how in the world could you ever kill it? And that's a tough thing, and I think it's almost an impossible thing to explain. Yeah. And so until somebody's experienced it, I don't think it's really, it can really be understood. So like yesterday and today, just being out there and having to go, wow, okay, now I understand what this is about. And, you know, you guys have been out and done a lot of hunting and fishing or a fair amount. You know, Alex, you're relatively new. Katie, you're a very experienced fisher. And I think just seeing a new experience and somebody experience that personally is just great.

  Katie

  Well, it's also interesting because if you were just to explain it, you say you go out on the ice, you cut a hole, you see the fish, you throw a spear, it sounds very straightforward. And then you realize how much setup it took. It's negative 40 degrees out, and you guys are trying to get those snow fields to start.

  Dave

  Yeah, your eyes are freezing shut. Yeah, it's not a balmy, beautiful. Oh, look, it's a nice sunny day. A leisure stroll out to the fish in a hole. You had the best Minnesota experience you could ever have.

  John

  If you could spear it here, you can spear it anywhere. That's what they say. You guys did the slush. You did the brutal temps. This was one of the tougher ones.

  Mark

  It was brutal. It was pretty brutal out there. I mean, machines did not work. Right.

  Dave

  You could sit and watch Google all day. Oh, they're spearing. Until you actually hands-on experience it. And like I said, the slush on the lake, the temperatures, you got the whole thing.

  Alex

  I mean, it was great. It's just.

  Katie

  It was a full experience. Every fish, you're like, so much went into this one fish.

  John

  I wrote about this in one of the articles, but it was how everything that happens above ice, the trailer, the truck, the snowmobile, the house, the shelter, the auger, the saw, all of this gear, hundreds and hundreds of pounds of stuff, comes down to six square feet of ice.

  Alex

  Yeah.

  John

  Comes down to an eight inch decoy, comes down to like hitting something three or four inches wide. You know, it's just like this huge funnel that all of these resources go into it for that. And the magical moment at the end has to be worth it. Otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here doing it. And, you know, thousands of people wouldn't participate in this sport. But it's crazy just like all of the stuff that feeds into that. And then you're like, oh, yeah, I understand why he was chipping ice off the bottom of my boots today. That was really fun to see the one fish come through. There's a video of that.

  Mark

  We'll put it on the page.

  John

  No, it's great.

  Dave

  And the thing is, too, you know, summertime, okay, I'm not getting any fish here. I'm going to move. Yeah. Boom, boom, you're portable. Or you're trolling.

  Katie

  Or you're napping on the shore with a beer in your hand. It's warm and you're just happy to be out there.

  Dave

  If you're into the, I call it the Dave Gens, you know, where if I'm fishing here, okay, I can move. I can move. You know, I'm going to keep moving until I find the fish. Yeah. You had better do your homework on knowing where that break is and where you want to set up because once you cut that spear hole and do all that work, you're probably not going to be, well, I'm going to move again. You're pretty much set up for the day.

  John

  I did that today, and I would not advise it.

  Mark

  No, no, no.

  John

  But we cut that. So the software that was referencing on the phone, I don't know if my GPS was off or something was freezing.

  Mark

  Yeah, we were talking about it.

  John

  It was off.

  Mark

  The unnamed software. The unnamed software on the unnamed lake.

  John

  The voting software that a lot of people use. But anyway, I thought we were in nine feet, and it was a foot or two off yesterday based on where we put our other house, which was a fairly good spot.

  Alex

  It got three bites today.

  John

  Very good spot. Matt and Lee up today with a lot of fish. Absolutely. We cut the hole, and all of a sudden we had shoveled all out because we were kind of waiting to run gear out there. And we punched it all out, and we didn't have a depth finder out there or anything. I was just like, oh, this is going to be a good spot. I just had a good feeling about it. And we cut it up, and all of a sudden weeds were coming up all the way to the top of the ice. And I looked, and I didn't even put the house up or anything, and I could see a beer can on the bottom.

  Mark

  That's your potato.

  John

  Yeah, we were in it. We were in like four or five feet of water. there were weeds literally like tickling the surface of the water through the and we were just like, we have to move, I'm sorry.

  Dave

  Do you remember what brand of beer it was? I probably know who was probably spearing over there.

  John

  Busch Light. Unnamed brand of beer. That doesn't help. Former student here. Yeah. After they graduated. Obviously. For any people listening.

  Katie

  Why is it? It's never a craft beer. It's never a craft beer.

  John

  Except for the one I fell in today.

  Katie

  It's always something light. 

  John

  Growlers don't provide a good contrast against the bottom.

  Alex

  it has to be it has to be silver you know that's why they call it

  Katie

  it's Coors or Miller or Bud exactly

  Mark

  so you know Katie you brought up a good point a few minutes ago I think which is that experience of realizing I mean just going out and doing something until you experience it first hand you don't understand all the effort that goes into it and that's I guess one of the lessons I love about the aspect of getting your own food in wild spaces, which is you understand what it takes to get something on your plate. And I think in this day and age, we take for granted, yeah, buck 19 a pound. That's easy. Just go down and pick it up. And you don't understand and appreciate what humanity went through.

  John

  Appreciate it.

  Mark

  Yes, absolutely.

  John

  You don't take as good a care of it.

  Mark

  I mean, think about the people. I've been reading this book lately. 

  John

  Good for you. How long have you been able to do that? 

  Dave

  Dick and Jane go fishing.

  Alex

  Sea spot fish. Yes. Sea Mark Spear. 

  Mark

  I don't get any respect.

  Katie

  The northern hears a northern with its ears. 

  Alex

  The northern hears a who?

  Mark

  Well, we opened up one there, didn't we? So I'm reading this book on the border waters between Minnesota, Canada, back in the 1600s, 1700s, and the fur traders, et cetera. What book is it? I'm blanking on the title right now.

  John

  There you go. I can vouch for him. He was reading. It was on the table in our room.

  Mark

  It's true. Mark, the Voyager's Highway. There you go. The Voyager's Highway. I actually almost picked it up if I wasn't dead tired yesterday. You were dead tired. I was reading until midnight.

  Katie

  Because of the coffee you brought at 3 p.m.

  Mark

  The gallon of coffee.

  Katie

  He's like, I forgot the coffee.

  Mark

  Finally brought it out at 3 p.m. But anyways, you think about that lifestyle and what it took just to get a meal. Yeah. I mean, and that's, I think, an appreciation you have when you're, like, going through the effort that we went through, like you just said, John, the amount of gear and equipment. And we're doing it with modern equipment. You know, we're using snowmobiles. Can you imagine if we didn't have those snowmobiles to get out to that spot the last two days? You walked. Exactly. So through that 18 to 24 inches with upwards of three-foot drifts on top of slush in 37 below temps.

  John

  Not county wind chill. Should we tell folks what slush is? What that phenomenon? Yeah, why don't you go for it? I didn't, well, Dave, feel free to jump in and fact check here.

  Dave

  Well, we all know ice floats, right? Yep. We what? Ice floats, and if you put weight on it, it's going to push down. So we get 24 inches of snow up here.

  Mark

  On a fairly thin skim of ice. Early in the season, right?

  Katie

  This is probably one of the more interesting things I learned on this trip.

  John

  And I speared for 15, 17 years before I experienced slush ever.

  Dave

  It never used to, it didn't used to happen. It didn't happen. And what happens is as you, that weight, you start to get cracks in the ice.

  John

  Yep.

  Dave

  And the water starts coming up and starts soaking up that snow. The top snow is still, is insulating. Yep. From the cold. And because there's air pockets in between the snowflakes, the millions of little snowflakes. But it starts building up, building up, building up. And that creates more weight, which pushes the ice down even more. continues on. The top of the snow would be just pure white. It looks beautiful. And then you step on it or like when you and I were pulling my fish shells, down through you go. It seems, it feels like if you're in a snowmobile, it's one thing, but like on an ATV or something or walking, all of a sudden you go right through.

  Mark

  It's scary. It will scare you. It scares you. You don't expect it.

  Dave

  And then you hit the regular ice. There is ice there, but when you stop at that ice, it's spooky

  Mark

  yeah I mean it just makes a mess so like today okay so last when we drove out this morning drove down to the lake it was 37 below zero and when we when I was driving out mid-morning on the snowmobile I went off of the trail that we had created and I sunk down into the slush so on top of the lake there's water unfrozen in 37 below that shows you how insulating that snow is it's below the top of that. But again, so you go out there, just imagine. So some people I know, Dave and Amy Freeman, they lived in the Boundary Waters for a year, a few years ago. And that was one of the things I know that they struggled with when they were up there was they were dog sledding and cross-country skiing and snowshoeing across lakes. And they just had slush everywhere. And it just kills you. It just takes all the wind out of your sail. And just imagine if you had to get out to that area where we were at, which is, you know, what, quarter, quarter, half mile. Yeah. Quarter, half mile. And it's just like, if you were trying to trudge through that stuff and, oh, it would just be. Yeah. Without snowshoes. No, you, you just, it would be very difficult.

  Dave

  Getting back to, you know, what you were saying before the fact of, you know, you know, without the more modern gear that we have today, most people either had, you know, a blacksmith or they had somebody make that stuff, or even go back to the Native Americans, which is where spearing came from. You had to hide. You chipped a hole, and what did you chip that hole with?

  Katie

  We were just talking about that.

  John

  Some type of edged tool.

  Dave

  Some sort of an edged tool. You chip through the ice. You put pine, and I did this with my students one time. We laid pine boughs all the way around the hole. Then we put a pole down in there into the mud, And then we threw, we obviously went and got a canvas tarp and put it over the top. And we laid on, we laid it on our stomachs looking over the hole. How cool. And they realized, wow, those pine boughs are really, I can take a nap. Plus it has that pine sense. Yeah. Pine salt scent. How many fell asleep? Yeah. A couple said I could take a nap. And, you know, we just sat there and we had a spirit and then we put a decoy down. Well, decoys nowadays are weighted or whatever. Back then you didn't have lead. What did you do? You tied a rock to it. And that rock was down below. You tied it with a piece of sinew or something. It was very, very primitive made. And it didn't have to be. It just had to look like a fish. Or maybe you used an antler or you used a piece of bone. Yeah. But you had to do that. You just didn't go uptown to get food. You didn't run to the grocery store. If we don't get something, if we're not good at hunting or harvesting, we're not going to eat.

  Mark

  Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good thing to remind ourselves, you know, even though we live in this modern world, every once in a while, get out there and remind ourselves of the challenges and the value, the value of everything that we've got.

  Dave

  You said it earlier, you appreciate what you're eating because you know where it came from. First, it's natural. I don't know where those fish sticks came from in the store. They came from Gordon. Mr. Gordon. Yeah. Where did the milk come from? Come from the grocery store. No. But just that satisfaction of knowing that you've gone out and harvested your own food.

  Katie

  Well, you don't want to waste it. That was the same thing. If I get a rotisserie chicken, I'm not trying to throw away food.

  John

  You're not making stock usually out of it. But you can get that pheasant.

  Katie

  I will make stock out of a rotisserie chicken.

  John

  Yeah, I will too. But you don't feel bad if you don't. 

  Alex

  Okay, you two will.

  Katie

  You don't feel bad if you don't. We will. I mean, but, you know, if I'm, like, kind of full and there's, you know, a couple pieces of chicken left, I'm like, eh, you know. But if there's something I've killed myself, I don't want a single piece of it to be thrown away.

  Dave

  Because that's your responsibility. You harvested that animal, you want to be sure to consume it properly. You're not going to waste it.

  Katie

  You work too hard for it. It almost makes me feel bad about, you know, the other meat because it's not like that me it's any less, you know, that that life was not any less valuable than whatever life you took. But there's just some different connection when you've killed it yourself and, you know, you were responsible for making that decision that you don't want to make that decision and then just toss it away willy nilly because it took so much time and effort and decision making going into it.

  Mark

  It's a personal connection. Yes. And that's what it is. Your eyelashes didn't freeze. You did that. You took that animal's life, and it's like, yeah, it's personal. And that's what I think. I think when you go and you purchase your food, it's impersonal. Yeah. It's a transaction. It's a financial transaction merely.

  John

  Somewhere along the line, some of the same stuff happened, but it was really depersonalized. And yeah, you don't have to feel it.

  Dave

  I mean, my can of Beanie Weenie is warming up on the manifold of the truck. I'm not going to be...

  Mark

  Tasty good. Beanie weenies on our vines. Well, hey, all of you, I've had a lot of fun the last couple days, and I think we should do it again sometime.

  Dave

  It was an adventure.

  Mark

  It was an adventure.

  Katie

  Maybe next time it'll be a little bit warmer. Oh, come on. Maybe like 20 degrees warmer would be great, just a couple degrees below zero.

  John

  Tomorrow it's going to be 60 degrees warmer than it was yesterday. I'm not waiting to shed three layers. It's still not going to be above freezing. Yeah. think about that I can't shake the math teacher part of me but that's a true statement

  Dave

  in the summertime you never see that happen

  John

  no yeah it'll be 135 degrees outside

  Katie

  in Minnesota terms where did this set of this two days

  John

  we were all cold, like oh we must be used to this no human is used to this

  Dave

  that's why we live longer that's why we live longer up here because We're frozen in half this year.

  Alex

  John kept saying, he's like, are you surprised you're not dead yet? And I'm like, honestly, yeah.

  Mark

  Well, think about how quickly you would be dead. When we stepped out of the tent, you get out of the shack, and we took some pictures once we'd got a fish, and you took your glove off.

  Katie

  Your hands are burning.

  Mark

  Yeah, in like three seconds, just like right away. That's dangerous, yeah.

  John

  Yeah, you got to be careful. Yes. Call us if you want to go out on the ice in 30 below. So don't do it your first time by yourself when it's this cold in slush.

  Katie

  We appreciate you doing this for us in even your coldest conditions.

  Alex

  Yeah, Mark, John, and Dave.

  Katie

  Obviously wasn't the ideal set of days to do this, but you guys still stuck with it and got everything ready for us. And, you know, we're perfectly happy to take us out. And it was just such a treat to do that.

  Alex

  Yeah, absolutely. And there is, you know, one thing that I've been wanting to say. I'm a classically trained forester. I like trees. And my two best friends, one's a fisheries biologist, one's a wildlife biologist. And they're like, why do you like trees? They don't move. I'm like, well, why do you like fish and animals? They move. And someone mentioned the last hour long I've been talking, like, well, I think Mark, you said it. Why would you kill it? You love it. And so I had this thing with squirrel. I didn't really think about squirrels until you took me squirrel hunting. Now I love squirrels. I'm obsessed with them. Their biology, their ecology, you know, just their morphology, conservation. And now the same thing, you know, like, I think fish are cool. Am I obsessed with fish? Not until the last two days. And so it goes back to my outdoor education, you know, background of you really can't care about something until you've experienced it, you've held it, you've killed it.

  Mark

  Interacted with it in some way. You've interacted with it. Yeah, exactly. In a very personal way. Yeah.

  Alex

  Exactly. That's kind of my plug for this whole thing is, you know, yeah. Now I care a lot about fish. A lot more than I did the last two days.

  Mark

  That's great. I like hearing that. That's really it, I think. I think that personal connection creates an appreciation and respect that's important.

  Dave

  I'm sorry, but maybe I'm a little biased, but nothing, after you've harvested a fish, you bring it home, you clean it up, nothing tastes better than that. No. It's so good. It's just so good. Yeah, 100%. It does taste better. I mean, it's been in that cold. It's been in a freezer the whole time. It's been in that cold water. You know, here it's fresh. It's swimming down there. It's ice cold water. You take it out. You take it home. You clean it up. And you fry it up. Yeah.

  John

  Yeah. Because at the end of a long day, you feel you've earned it. Yes. It is so good. You took so much care and time. And you're basically doing what we're doing now. But it's around, you know.

  Dave

  Oh, I'm going to go grab some fillets I picked up at the store.

  John

  It's not the same. Well, and then.

  Katie

  Not a lot of times you could say, hey, this fish has been sitting in the back of the bed for two days. You want to eat it? You want to eat it? It's a physical.

  Mark

  It's still just as good as it was two days ago.

  Dave

  Why do I just have flashes of grumpy old men in my head?

  Mark

  Begin where we end or end where we end. The grumpy old men are end. The grumpy old men. There you go. We've come full circle. Stop the landing.

  Alex

  Yeah. As we intended. Thanks, everyone.

  Katie

  All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com, for all episodes and show notes. And also, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me, and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening, and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.

Note:

These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.

While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.

Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.