Ep 7: Using OnX Maps for Fishing, with Jared Larsen
Jared Larsen is a Marketing Specialist with OnX Maps, one of the most robust and useful mapping apps available. Originally designed for hunting, OnX is also extremely useful to anglers, hikers, campers, and anyone else recreating outdoors. Jared and I discuss the features that are particularly useful to anglers, how to use OnX effectively, features that are expected to come out in the future, and the ridiculousness of stream access laws in many western states.
Website: https://www.onxmaps.com/
OnX Instagram:@onxhunt
Jared’s Instagram: @jaredclarsen
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Intro
You're listening to the Wild Initiative podcast network. Learn more and check out all the shows at thewildinitiative.com.
Katie
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed podcast where we talk all things fishing conservation and the outdoors. Today on the show I'm joined by Jared Larsen marketing specialist at OnX Maps. All right welcome to episode number seven of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today OnX is probably one of my favorite apps of all time. I use it nearly any time I go hunting, fishing, camping, really anything outside that I might need to see, private land boundaries or trails, trail distances and elevations, anything like that. I'm pulling it out all the time to kind of verify where I am and make my next move. If you've never heard of OnX Maps, I'd be surprised, but I still meet a lot of people who have either never used it or don't know all the features it has. And as much as I use OnX, I found myself learning a whole lot talking to Jared because he shares a lot of secrets that I didn't know existed and also shares a lot of features that they have in the works right now that aren't released yet. So if you've never heard of OnX, this will be a really informative one for you. But even if you have used OnX, I found that there were a lot of tidbits in here that I'm I'm definitely gonna be using next time I hit the water. So make sure you listen to the end to hear all of those secrets that Jared shares as well as the upcoming features that are gonna be released soon. So without further ado, here is my chat with Jared Larsen.
Jared
You have any, you said your boyfriend and you didn't find any elk last weekend, huh?
Katie
No, he ended up going up last night to try to make something work and he got stuck on a closed I-70 until 12:30 in the morning, so.
Jared
Oh, fun.
Katie
So I think his season's over.
Jared
Yeah, yeah. Well, you guys got dumped on last night, huh?
Katie
Yeah, some places got 15 inches. Dang.
Jared
Do you ski?
Katie
We do. So we're excited for that.
Jared
Heck yeah. Yeah, I saw that A-Basin is already open.
Katie
Yeah, so is Keystone.
Jared
Crazy.
Katie
Do you ski too?
Jared
Yeah, yep.
Katie
Nice.
Jared
As much as I love fall, I always am looking forward to when the snow starts to fall.
Katie
It's kind of nice having, when one thing ends, the next begins. So it's kind of bittersweet.
Jared
Other than it sounds just like you, you hunt, you ski and you fish. So there is literally no time of the year to save any money.
Katie
No, I think May is our most down month. There's turkey hunting, but we're not really big into turkey hunting. So that's our only free month.
Jared
Well, you just wait. Turkey hunting is probably my favorite.
Katie
Oh, really?
Jared
It's like an easier game of elk hunting.
Katie
Yeah, you can still talk to them. I mean, I've done it a handful of times. I did it out east where I knew how to do it. And out here, it's a completely different ball game. I've just not figured it out yet.
Jared
Fair enough. Well, there's still time. And I guess the freezer rewards are less enticing with turkey hunting.
Katie
Yeah, maybe like a single roast, and then you're done.
Jared
Yeah. And it's no venison backstrap.
Katie
Right. That's what we had last night.
Jared
Nice.
Katie
So you're in the office right now?
Jared
I am in the office. Yep. Everyone's clearing out.
Katie
Yeah. Thanks for hanging around.
Jared
Hey, any time. I went and poured myself a beer from the keg, so we're alright.
Katie
Well, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. I was excited to hear that they had someone who was interested in talking fishing.
Jared
Heck yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch of people around this office that use the product to fish. Why we don't have a fishing product yet, I wish we did. That's what I'll say.
Katie
I mean, there's a little bit of functionality for fishing, like fishing specific, but...
Jared
a ton of functionality, but we just don't market towards fishermen yet. Time will tell if we do go down that road.
Katie
Well, I definitely have some things to ask on that front, so we can tackle that. Perfect. But do you just want to start with telling me a little bit about yourself? I read your bio and definitely want to hear about your time in Alaska.
Jared
Yeah.
Katie
Were you guiding all those summers or just the last one?
Jared
Nope, just the last one. So yeah, I grew up in Wisconsin and certainly did a ton of fishing, mostly fishing for largemouth and pike and that thing, just freshwater lakes. We had a cabin, so fished there a ton. And then
Katie
Is that fly fishing or conventional?
Jared
Yeah, I was conventional fishing at that point. And I mean, my dad had some fly rods and one of my uncles was super into fly fishing. And so we'd play around with fly rods now and again, but it was pretty much all gear. And then, um, my sister moved up to Alaska to go to grad school and she was living on a sailboat by herself. I think it was like her, her first full summer up there. Maybe it was her second. And she was just like, Hey Jared, you should come live on this sailboat with me for a summer. And I was like, yeah, okay. And so I just like booked a one way ticket. She was in Juneau, so I booked a one way ticket up there and, um, we just spent the summer living on the sailboat. Um, and she was doing school stuff and I didn't have a car, so I had to find a job I could walk to. And so I ended up working at this little coffee shop and was just a barista for the summer, but mostly a fish and bum. Like I went up there with some fly rods. I was like determined to figure out how to fly fish and that's all I did. I'd go make coffee in the morning and then dip out of work and I mean there's a ton of places within walking distance, you know, streams and like little outlets, estuaries, and just catching. I mean I caught Kings that summer. I caught tons dollies, you know pink salmon, chum salmon, everything but a coho. And I was just hooked from from then on. And then came back to Juneau the next summer for a month and then a year after that that's when I went up to Bristol Bay and guided on the Alagnak for a summer which was super awesome. It was actually like the highest water year that they had seen in like a couple decades. The lodge manager at the Alagnak had been guiding on that river for I think like 38 years or something. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Struznik, he knew the river like the back of his hand and it was a super fun cruise, super fun river, a lot of plug in for Kings. So not necessarily fly fishing. We were at, we were like five miles from Salt. So like the tides actually would affect our docks. Like we had to have floating docks, like the tides would push way up and I mean, water would rise like six to eight feet on a big tide.
Katie
Oh, interesting.
Jared
Yeah. So we were fishing tidewater. So it wasn't as many fly fishing clients. We'd certainly have some, especially for like cohoes in August. But a lot of plug in for Kings. So like back trolling and then just a lot of conventional gear for for chums and pinks as well as fly fishing. And honestly, the Alagnak is kind of known as like the best river to go catch chums in, at least to my knowledge. in Bristol Bay, it's just got a lot of sandbars. So it's super easy and super friendly to, not all of the clients that go to Alaska are super fishy people. And so the Alagnak's a good river for those types. And the chum salmon just come in hordes. And that's kind of what our main, most of July was chums. And you're not killing chums to eat them, but they fight like heck. They'll bend an eight weight like you wouldn't believe.
Katie
So are the rivers that flow into Bristol Bay, do they have different species of salmon or is it more just timing of year that determines what's in the water at any given time?
Jared
For the most part it's time of year, but there's certainly rivers that have far bigger returns of specific species than others. So for example, the Kvichak, which is one of the main rivers in Bristol Bay has like the largest sockeye return in the world I believe. And like the Alagnak is the largest tributary of the Kvichak. So we had like we had the Alagnak has pretty pretty decent sockeye returns, good king returns, good chum returns, and then pinks return. They're the oddball so all other four species of salmon return every four years. So they're you know born, spend four years in the sea and then come back. Whereas pinks are on a year.
Katie
Okay.
Jared
And I was up there on an odd year so we didn't get pinks that year.
Katie
So how did the fishing compare between Juneau and was that like Anchorage area that you were in when you're guiding?
Jared
Yeah so Bristol Bay is what is it it's like a two-hour little puddle hopper flight or no no it was a main it was a main 737 to King Salmon from Bristol Bay and I think it was close to two hours but it was very different very different than Juneau. Juneau is like there's a lot of fishing off the road system but otherwise you need a boat you know because it's it's not technically an island but there's no roads off of Juneau and it really doesn't have like a large river nearby it's just a lot of creeks okay that go into estuaries so and it's a lot of hatchery fish in Juneau to be honest with you I mean there's certainly some native returns but like the Kings are almost all hatchery fish in Juneau whereas in Bristol Bay you You know, it's pretty untouched by man. You know, all natural returns. So that's the biggest difference, I think, is like a lot of the returns in southeast Alaska are hatchery fish, and there are native ones. And then, you know, Bristol Bay is still so pristine and awesome. And that's why there's such a fight against Pebble Mine.
Katie
Right. Is there much of a fishing culture in Juneau? Is it less? I mean, I assume it's less so than, you know, up in Bristol Bay, but is that still a big thing there?
Jared
Yes, definitely. And Alaska Fly Fishing Goods is a fly shop in Juneau, and they do an amazing job of bringing the community together. So they have tons of nights throughout the year of learn to fly tie, learn fly fishing. So they're really good about involving the community. And I've definitely been to a few of the events that they've hosted. And one time, they hosted an annual barbecue for the town. And there's a bunch of rods you can cast at this little park called Twin Lakes. I was there and there's like a hundred fifty people that showed up like it was a super good turnout I was impressed. So I would say there's definitely a good fishing culture, you know, nice
Katie
I haven't made it up there yet, but I've got a couple buddies who go up there and yeah, it's on the bucket list
Jared
Yeah Like it's totally doable for you, especially if you know somebody up there.
Katie
Right. I think that's one of those, you know, quote-unquote exotic destinations. It's not really that hard to do a DIY trip
Jared
Totally
Katie
You could do like one or two days guided and then you know go off on your own and figure it out but yeah definitely want to make up there at some point.
Jared
Yep book a ticket and go because you're totally right I mean for being like a world-renowned destination Alaska is easy to get to.
Katie
Yeah for sure. Well do you want to tell me a little bit about onX in general you know not necessarily specifically related to fishing but just kind of give everyone an overview of what onX is if they're not familiar?
Jared
Yeah so I mean onX we make well it started out as a chip for a GPS with the most accurate land ownership information available on the market. And then it's evolved into the app. You know, the OnX Hunt app is our flagship product at this point. And I mean, download onto your phone and it completely can turn your smartphone into a standalone GPS with or without service. All public private land boundaries. You know, it designates whether it's BLM, National Forest, Indian Reservation, all color coded and like private parcels. You can tap on a parcel and get the owner's name, tax information. The only thing we don't have in there is phone numbers. So I mean, you can still look them up in the white pages real quick. But overall, I mean, it's a game changing tool. You know, I had it before I worked here. That was why I applied here, honestly, because I was like, yeah, this is a sweet product. I want to work there. Yeah, I don't I don't know how I'd hunt without it anymore. Honestly.
Katie
Right and what at what point did it go from, just kind of like OnX maps to OnX hunt for hunting.
Jared
Yeah Yeah, so the OnX maps to like just OnX rebrand was in like the summer of 2017
Katie
Okay
Jared
and and that's when we rebranded to just be like OnX drop the maps and then like our flagship product was OnX Hunt And at the time we actually had a Roam app, which is no longer a thing. But we are expanding verticals. Like we do have an OnX off-road app.
Katie
I saw that.
Jared
Yeah, it's only in Android right now, but it's coming out for iOS, should be soon. So like that's, you know, overlanders, ATVers, you know, dirt biking, you know, any off-road trail is marked on that app. And it's actually gaining really good traction, so.
Katie
So how is that different from the, 'cause there's like an off-road-ish layer, at least on the Hunt app, where I can look at roads and they usually give a description of whether you need high clearance or things like that. Is that different?
Jared
Yeah, the MVUM trail layer, I believe, is the one you're referring to there. I know off-road is significantly more detailed, like it has opening dates, closing dates, but to be honest with you, I can't speak to that super accurately, so that's where I'm gonna leave it.
Katie
Fair enough, I'm just curious.
Jared
Yeah, we actually have a whole separate functional OnX off-road team, and yeah, it's progressing quickly.
Katie
Do you happen to know what the demographics of your user base is? Are they mostly hunters, or do you have a lot of people who are just like, "Hey, I like to hike, "and I still wanna stay off private property, "and I'm just gonna get this app "for my non-hunting or fishing activities."
Jared
As a general scope, I don't know any numbers, but just from like surveys that I know I've done and I've seen data from, it's majority is hunters just because again, that's where we are marketing towards. But we always get people back in those surveys saying, I only use this app for hiking and camping. Oh, I'm a real estate agent. Oh, I'm a forester. Certainly a bunch of people replied that they use it for fishing. So, I mean, it has so many use cases and actually there's like some weirdly legalities. we can't market to real estate actually in the current situation we're in. I don't know all the laws intertwined with that but there are some interesting caveats like that.
Katie
I was not aware of that but I've definitely recommended it to people who I know don't hunt and I'm just like you know if you're just trying to hike and you know go way far back and find places to access like this is the is the best thing you can get yourself. Even if you're just
Jared
like looking for camping spots or like a weekend hiking trail it's it's crazy how much I use the app just in everyday life.
Katie
Right, and I can attest to the fact that it does really turn your phone into the only thing you need. The only thing I'm ever hesitant about is, you know, making sure I've got an extra battery backup.
Jared
Battery life, yeah.
Katie
Or like, worry that I'm gonna drop my phone in the river or something. (laughing) Like, there's a little part of me that wants to carry a backup GPS, but, you know, I did for a little bit, have like more than one piece of equipment, and I find myself just going straight back to the app every time. So, it's all I carry now, and I just gotta hope for the best in terms of not breaking my phone or something. That's awesome. But yeah, it's super functional, the offline mode. Do you wanna talk about the offline mode real quick?
Jared
Absolutely. Okay. So like the amount of people that are unaware that you can save maps is pretty crazy. Of people that are even paying for the app, like they don't realize that there's that off-grid, tab in the toolbar down there and it just never occurs to them. So you gotta think.
Katie
I actually met four people last weekend who they had it and they were like, "OnX doesn't work very well here." And I was like, "Well, did you save your map?" And they're like, "What are you talking about?" And I was like, "How have you been paying for this and not noticed that one of the five main options at the bottom of the screen is offline?"
Jared
Like, we have so many comments on Facebook and Instagram and people reaching out to our customer support team that have the same exact experience. So like, "Why did I buy this?" And it's like, "Well, because you can save maps. You just haven't yet."
Katie
Right.
Jared
But yeah, the ability to, I mean, You obviously just go into off-grid, hit save new map, pick the area, overlay how much resolution you want, whether you want a really tight five square mile map, 10 square mile, or the broad 150. And what I typically do is I save a broad 150 into the general area I'm going. And then I save 10 mile maps inside of that, just in case the spot I thought I was gonna go to is full of trucks or turned out to be a flop or whatever. If you have that 150 saved around it, least you can navigate.
Katie
Right I've done the exact same thing I've actually saved like basically the whole state of Colorado under the 150 miles wide option that way wherever I am I know I'll be able to at least view you know where I am on a map and then when I'm going somewhere specific then I'll save the five or ten miles wide but that way I know that I'll have something you know anywhere I go.
Jared
That is definitely the play to make.
Katie
Super handy.
Jared
Yeah.
Katie
So what are some of the, I know it's not really meant to be fishing specific, but you do have a couple features that are related to fishing like river stage and Great Lakes and stuff like that. You want to go over a couple of those?
Jared
Totally and I actually you know I have use cases for pretty much everything in that app for fishing to be honest with you.
Katie
Alright, well I'll hear them all.
Jared
There's a lot of folks in the office here you know I fish pretty hard and hunt and you know they often ask like well if you only can fish or only can hunt what would you do and my answer is usually fish. You know, you can do it anywhere and you can do it all year. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, so like the river stage forecast and Great Lakes bathymetry, that's data that we pull in from NOAA, so not our own data. Um, and the river stage forecast, if you turn that layer on under the water tab of your layer library, um, you can actually go into layer settings and either get the current river stage or the 48 hour forecast if you just change that to layer settings. So again, that's all coming from NOAA, obviously super helpful for fishing, knowing what the river stage is, whether it's going to be high water, tough wading or low water, depending on what, help predict what hatches might be, that type of thing. But really most helpful for like floating, in my opinion anyway. And then Great Lakes bathymetry, we don't have a ton of detail on that bathymetry data we're getting from NOAA, and I can't really speak to using it. I haven't been to the Great Lakes in some time. But I know I do know some buddies that that certainly have told me it's been useful. I actually grew up in Wisconsin as I said haven't been back in a while. But yeah we definitely have those two layers. Talked about off-grid which you know if you're out west hiking up trailheads into rivers or alpine lakes the off-grid mode is definitely going to play a factor fishing in that way. And then the distance tool. Like if I'm floating rivers around here, I'll use the line distance tool. And you know, you can make as many segments as you want. So you can just follow the contours of the river with the line distance tool. That way you can kind of like map out, oh, this floats going to be seven miles. This floats going to be 13 miles. That way you can kind of time it out to float a, you know, an appropriate section for how much time you have that day or whatever. Tracker. I use the tracker also when I'm floating, especially year over year you start to you always think you're gonna remember like how fast you float with certain flows but I never actually do and so like my favorite floats I have like a bunch of different tracks on them with like and you know it saves the date that you made that track so I just like look oh you know I floated this on January 13th it took me four hours or January July 13th took me four hours and then I can kind of, you know, tell that way how long a float might take, um, you know, way points for the obvious stuff. If you, you know, catch a bunch of fish in a hole, drop a way point, um, you know, that type of thing. Uh, and then the one thing I always really do is like, if I'm going on a fishing trip and I'm going to a river specifically, I'll always go on web map and just scour that, that river on web map, just aerial imagery, you know, looking for big boulders that are going to create holes, deep bends that are going to have deep banks, big pools to fish. I've really become kind of obsessed with bull trout in the last couple of years. And you can't legally target them in most waters in Montana. So I'm usually going over to Idaho and fishing their bull trout. And bull trout are notorious for just wanting deep, cold pools. And so I've been pretty successful at just like picking those pools out with the aerial imagery on web map, dropping waypoints there and then boots on the ground show up. And usually it's pretty solid, um, as far as you know, what I thought I was getting into. Um, and I mean, obviously rec points sounds like you've used those for, you know, like camp spots and stuff, but like all registered boat ramps are there as rec points, uh, fishing access sites. So like, you know, an easy one to just find a place to go fish for the day if you've got a boat or even if you don't got a boat. And then obviously trails, you know, it always helps to have a nice hiking trail that goes along the river rather than bushwhacking.
Katie
Yeah, and it seems like most of the features that you're using and that I use are not really fishing specific, but they just really help you. And I'd never thought of the, like, tracking a float to see how long it took you because I don't really do much floating. I'm almost always waiting and so I've tracked myself in other situations usually in hunting situations But that's a really interesting point that you could see how long it took you to go a certain distance
Jared
Yeah
Katie
on a float.
Jared
so what are some of your most used features when you're out fishing?
Katie
I'd say my well my most use is probably either trails or private land just because We'll get around to it. But the stream access laws here are really awful So it's not as simple as like get into the water and stay in the water It is like you need to be on top of it the entire time you're fishing and some people are really good about marking it And other people are not so it's a lot of time spent Planning where I'm gonna go, you know spot to spot even just along a road being like a hail park here There's you know this section. This is a long enough section of public that it's worth going to That I'll drive here So I'd say definitely the the public-private boundaries are probably the main reason I have OnX honestly Because it's so important in this state
Jared
Yeah, yeah, Colorado's water access is not nearly as friendly as Montana's
Katie
No and it's it's so surprising considering I mean Colorado makes so much money off of people coming here to recreate not just for fishing, but you know any boating, yeah, I mean rafting, hunting, fishing, just the outdoors in general I'm really surprised that they haven't kind of got a little more progressive on that on that end
Jared
And I mean you guys are far from alone as far as Western states that have you know similar tough access laws is for fishing
Katie
so we can I guess we can just get into that. The document you sent over to me regarding stream access. Is that something that you whipped up or did you get that from somewhere else?
Jared
No, so actually OnX has this portal, if you will, called Hunt Central. And basically it has data from each state with all tag prices, when their season dates are, overview of what the state's known for as far as hunting abilities or hunting. For example, Montana is known for great big game hunting and excellent elk hunting, for instance, with over-the-counter tags. But we've wanted to for a little while now expand that and put like water access laws and some, you know, like, like corner crossing is illegal in Montana, but legal in other states. So we've wanted to like dive into these other little nuances of many states and these laws that OnX will help you navigate and water access as being one of them. And in fact, we have a, an access department led by our founder, Eric Siegfried. And he actually asked me, you know, knowing that I fish a bunch, to put together just like some summaries of stream access for the, for the Western states, the same states we did the landlocked report for. And so that's what the doc I sent to you over is. And you know, thankfully Backcountry Hunters and Anglers has already done a lot of that work. So they actually have a, like a complete guide of, you know, many of those states set up and whether you can float through private lands or get out of your boat if the land under the water is private or if you can even anchor. So that's where all of that research stemmed from is to hopefully make all of this more public knowledge. That way folks are better informed. I'm sure every year in Colorado, I'm sure there's tons of people that get trespassing tickets because they end up fishing over private riverbed.
Katie
Right, especially if you're coming from a state where it's a lot more lenient. In Montana, it's that you can walk up to the high water mark, right?
Jared
Yep. Yeah.
Katie
And so I, and that seems totally logical, you know, just like stay in the river, you know, stay in the river, don't come up onto my actual land and Totally.
Jared
And it's high water mark. So high water, you know, is typically in May or June, which, you know, by the time August rolls around and you know, the best fishing is you have usually close to 20 yards of dry riverbank that you can walk because high water mark is so much higher so it's like it's convenient as a fisherman you don't have to constantly be in the water you know especially like walking back upstream you know that's never all that fun when you have to stay in the water so.
Katie
Right and I think I think I don't know if this is Montana or a different state I'm thinking of I know there's some that have some gray areas in terms of whether you can use a river to access public land if you didn't if you didn't I'm trying to think of how it's how it goes. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Jared
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And Montana's an interesting one. So like you can't legally like if I wanted to go chase elk like there's there's quite a few landlocked parcels just down the bitter route just south of Missoula here that um…
Katie
Do you want to explain what landlocked parcels are real quick?
Jared
Yeah, so like a landlocked parcel of public land is is just a parcel of public land that's not open to the public. There's no road access that touches it, no easement, it's all surrounded by private. And so you know it's it's your lands and my lands that we can't get to because there's no access to them.
Katie
So really just the private landowners that border that area can get to it. And they often look like checkerboards kind of.
Jared
Totally.
Katie
Where you could, if it were legal, step from one corner of public into another corner of public, but you can't.
Jared
Because you can't corner cross.
Jared
Yeah, right.
Katie
So that specifically is illegal. And so there's a lot of this land out there that is just inaccessible, even though if you could somehow get in there it would be legal for you to be there. You just can't get to it.
Jared
Yeah exactly. But yeah to hop back to what we were talking about like in Montana you can't legally like just walk a river to public lands with a rifle on your back and go hunt it if that water is throwing through private lands. But if you float it or you bring a fishing rod or you are partaking in some activity that you know relates to that water access and then you also have a rifle with you and then you get to that public land and go hunting that is apparently a legal loophole. So like…
Katie
That is the one I was talking about.
Jared
Yeah
Katie
I don't know how they I don't know if you'll know either but just to chat about it
Speaker 3
yeah
Katie
how can they defend that like if so basically you could walk up it legally without a rifle and then be on the public land but You can't walk up, be on that land and then go hunting, which is legal on that land.
Jared
Yeah, so our founder, Eric Siegfried, he's very interested in that nuance of the law. And so like he had talked to some lawyers and had some lawyers write up some documents, you know, surrounding that. And all the lawyers pointed in the direction of that you'd have a pretty good case that you'd likely win in court. It was their opinion. I'm not gonna test it.
Katie
Yeah, I know for sure and I've heard people say like just carry a rod with you like even if you're not gonna go fishing just and bring a rod along and yep, you know take a cast
Jared
Yep, and and the weirdest part is is is you can do it to waterfowl hunt so like I can do that same thing to waterfowl hunt, but I can’t…
Katie
because it's a water related activity?
Jared
I guess yeah
Katie
And do you happen to know if it's rifle specific like could you carry a shotgun up there?
Jared
I don't, if you are intending to hunt big game, I don't think it is legal.
Katie
That is just such an odd, like, what your intentions are seems like a very gray area. Yeah. And these stream access laws in general seem like a gray area. Like, looking at the document you sent over, and just so everyone knows, this document is basically, it just lists each state with some of the definitions and laws pertaining to stream access. And it seems like a lot of times things just aren't well defined or there is no definition, you know like navigability, things like that.
Jared
Well yeah and it sounds, I'm gonna go pull one directly out of Washington here because it's so obscure. But like the, so one of the questions that we wanted to answer for this is what is the definition of navigability in this state? So this is Washington and this is the definition. A stream must be able to float a bolt of shingles to be considered navigable. While a bolt of shingles isn't large, the state courts have expressly stated that streams capable of passage by a canoe or kayak are not necessarily navigable. The state owns the bed of all navigable waters. So like, who even knows what a bolt of shingles is?
Katie
Very pertinent to modern day society.
Jared
Yeah, so it's like, you know, it seems like a lot of these laws were made up, you know, way back when, and they've never been revisited unsurprisingly. But yeah, yeah, it's pretty obscure.
Katie
And do you know what it takes to have these laws revisited? I know that this is probably not your area of expertise, but it's just so interesting that you'd think that this would be a large enough issue that affects enough people that the states would want to clear these things up and you just give a solid definition so there's no more stepping around trying to figure out what's going on.
Jared
As you said, Colorado and a lot of these Western states, they draw so many people in to go whitewater rafting, come fishing, just general recreation that oftentimes happens in the rivers. And many of these laws are just so gray that, yeah. I don't know what it takes to get them changed, but I'd have to imagine it's Supreme Court. And yeah, that's a lot of legal battle.
Katie
Yeah, for sure. It's just, it's almost impressive how out of date some of these things are. I mean, I think Colorado didn't have a clear definition of navigability. Some of these just don't have an answer. Like no one's ever bothered to answer it. Like some of the bridge, like can you access a river from a bridge?
Jared
Yep.
Katie
You know, that's a public roadway. And there's just like never been a definition. So, you know, I feel like if you're out there, it's basically you're trying to deal with whoever happens doing it and how they interpret it.
Jared
That's just it, that's what I was gonna say, is like, you know, it all just depends which game warden you get that day.
Katie
Yeah, and actually this is just a side tangent, but we had, recently we were going small game hunting out here, and there's a law in Colorado that you can't squirrel hunt with a dog during any regular big game season.
Jared
Oh, interesting.
Katie
And we're gonna go squirrel hunting, and we have a dog who's like not a hunting dog, she's just a dog, she has no idea why we're out there. We wanted to go on a squirrel hunt and have her just tag along you know she's not assisting in the hunt at all and we had called Colorado Parks and Wildlife to ask if this is okay like as long as she's not participating in the hunt and not assisting us in any way could she be there and the the person on the other end of the line didn't even know that was a law and couldn't really give us a clear answer, and we're like so if if we do this Aand someone is like someone comes across us it almost seems like it's just up to the discretion of the mood of the person on that day and that just doesn't feel like how a law should operate, you know?
Jared
And to be honest with you, we've experienced, because we've called Montana FWP about that law we were just talking about, like walking into big game, and it just depends on who you talk to that day. Sometimes they're like, "Oh yeah, you'd be fine. Oh, nope, you'd get a ticket." It's all interpretation. It's all that person that day that comes across you. It's crazy.
Katie
Which makes you want to err on the side of caution every time, which is the safer way to go. But also, if I have a right to do something, I want to be able to do that and not worry about getting a ticket if I'm doing something that's totally legal. So that's crazy. Has OnX, correct me if I'm wrong here, you guys worked, I guess, was it in partnership with Backcountry Hunters and Anglers to kind of assess the landlocked land that's out there and kind of give a number to it? Is that correct?
Jared
So it was actually TRCP.
Katie
Oh, is it? Okay.
Jared
Yup. Yup. We worked with CRCP with all the landlocked stuff. And we actually, like, as I kind of previously mentioned, we built an internal access team that's actually growing pretty quickly. That, you know, we had folks from our GIS team, you know, collecting all of that data, trying to, you know, figure out how many acres of... And we did two separate access reports. We did the federal one and then the state one. So, like, federal lands and state lands. So like tons of man hours into finding each landlocked parcel, marking down the acreage where it is, to compile all of those mind-boggling stats of millions and millions of acres that are landlocked throughout the West. So now we have this access team built that our founder, Eric, is heading up and we're hoping to get some budget for that to help unlock these public lands that we should be able to access. In fact, like last year, we did a pretty cool campaign with Randy Newberg and Leupold Optics, where I'm actually wearing the t-shirt under the sweatshirt right now, but it's Marcus the Public Lands Llama. So
Katie
Oh yeah, I have seen him.
Jared
Yeah, Randy Newberg like hunted with, you know, this pack of llamas, herd of llamas, whatever you wanna call them. and was helping promote public lands and the sales of these t-shirts that we made. We donated all the funds back to help open up some access and Leupold just did a blog on their site about it that we're working with them to open up some of these access projects.
Katie
So are you guys doing much of the actual kind of advocacy work for that, or is that more on them and your job is kind of to quantify all the land? Or are you actually actively talking to decision makers about these lands and how to unlock them?
Jared
Both for sure. So Eric goes to quite a few conferences where he is a speaker to help unlock these public lands. I can't speak to the exact nature of that and how we're involved with helping unlock these, but I know we've put dollars towards it and that it's an ongoing battle for sure.
Katie
I know this is probably a little different just because this isn't really about quantifying, but do you think that there would be any possibility down the road of doing a similar sort of project with Stream Access? Like I said, it's a little different because you don't really need to quantify the Stream Access, but do you happen to know if there's any kind of push being made either from TRCP or Backcountry Hunters and Anglers in partnership with you guys at all you talk about stream access laws and kind of get some of those fixed?
Jared
Currently there's not. Um, but you know, like, like this, that doc I sent you was kind of the beginning of all this stream access stuff. And you know, I mean, our busy season is, you know, mid August and through December is, you know, when, when we're all cranking on, on hunts, cause you know, that the time is now, but this off season, I definitely anticipate some of this stream access stuff and more of this landlocked project to make its way into hopefully opening up more access to public lands. I would sure think that we'll publish some of this stream access stuff on Hunt Central and start to help raise awareness on the poor stream access because it is something that Eric really wants to push. As we've talked about multiple times now tons of people are using these waters to not only fish but but hunt and recreate and and we can't do so especially down in Colorado and Utah and Arizona I mean there's a lot of states with some like Arizona you can't even legally float through private lands that's insane
Katie
like even if you're not touching the bottom
Jared
yes
Katie
they own the water
Jared
yeah
Katie
That is crazy
Jared
yeah
Katie
Do you happen to know, well actually I want to go back to something you just said that kind of sparked something in my mind. Like you said, OnX isn't specifically a fishing app, it's definitely mostly hunting related, but these stream access laws aren't specific to fishing because if you're using the stream access to just be on the water then sure, but a lot of the time it could just be to access areas, you know? And I feel like that's a something that just gets overlooked versus something like the landlocked land or just straight up you know public versus private is these these laws can affect more than just anglers, you know? Anyone who's trying to get into any sort of public land or just be on the water, you know? There's plenty of people that that hunt near water and need to camp near water and want to be able to, you know, access it.
Jared
And quite Like frankly, I bet that you and I are the vast minority of folks that use these waters and actually know the ins and outs of the laws. The fact that you can't drop an anchor in Utah when you're above private stream bed, I'm sure that law gets broken all the time, unless they have OnX or how would they ever know? I mean it's not like it's posted across the river or anything. It's just like, "Well, this is a good hole. I'm going to drop anchor here."
Katie
And you mean to tell me that the vast majority of people don't know what a bolt of shingles is?
Jared
Yeah.
Katie
But that's so true though because, you know, I know the laws, at least for Colorado, I don't know the laws for all the other states unless I go fish them, but growing up in Pennsylvania, I did not know what the stream access laws were and as a kid I just kind of did whatever I wanted. Granted I was a kid so I probably wouldn't have faced major repercussions if someone had found me walking on their shoreline Like no one's probably gonna care but you know It never even occurred to me that I could be on someone else's land And I've since gone back and like looked at at some of the Pennsylvania laws and been like, oh, yeah I definitely broke all of the laws Like I would just I'd beach my kayak on an island, you know in the middle of a river and be like I can be here You know, there's no house on here.
Jared
Yeah
Katie
and you know didn't even occur to me that someone owns that land and I probably can't be there
Jared
So Pennsylvania is where you got your start fishing?
Katie
Yeah, that's where I grew up. Kind of like you, I grew up spin fishing too and came out here to take up fly fishing.
Jared
Heck yeah.
Katie
So, very similar upbringing.
Jared
Yeah. Well, I was just going to say, yeah, it's improved. It's improved vastly. The mountains and rivers make life far better.
Katie
They do. Do you know if OnX has any plans to put in some fish specific data that's similar to some of the hunting specific data? So just so people know if they don't have OnX, there's like layers you can put over the map. So that's things like private public land, it has things like elk overall range, and you know elk migration corridors, and things like that for all kinds of different species. Do you know if there would be any plans in the future to include things like which species the fish are found in different areas or things like that, like even fish migration patterns about when they're going to be in the area and things like that?
Jared
Yeah, so right now, as I said, Offroad recently came out. I think that was launched in April. And we are definitely exploring the options of new verticals. Currently, I don't know what the next vertical that we might explore would be. But I'm hoping, and I'm hoping, there will be a fish product sooner than later. And if that were to come to fruition, there's no question that we would definitely have a lot of layers denoting species in each watershed. Among other things, I would even like to see prominent hatches on each piece of water. Obviously, all this is a lot of data collection and could be sometime down the road. but it would not surprise me.
Katie
I mean, ideally, the data would already exist via, you know, each state’s…
Jared
And a lot of it does.
Katie
Parks and wildlife, yeah. Yeah, I know, like, Colorado has an app that has, they have two separate apps, one for, like, fish species locations. Like, you can select different rivers and see what lives in there. And they have a separate one for hatches. It's a lot more generic. But you can, you know, choose what time you're gonna go fishing, and it'll say, you know, what's hatching that time of year.
Jared
It'll at least give you something go spend some money at a fly shop, cat his flies or may flies or whatever.
Katie
Right, it'll make you more confident if nothing else. But, you know, ideally a lot of that data would already exist via, you know, the individual states. I guess the hard part might be the fact that there's not a consistent system of, you know, state to state what each state's recording.
Jared
Well, and there's not for Hunt either, you know. Some states are awesome and provide us amazing data. Some states, you know, ask us not to publish their data.
Katie
Oh, really?
Jared
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Katie
So what's the benefit of that?
Jared
Well, so like for instance, the one that comes to mind is-- forgive me, I'm trying to think of the actual program. But like so Idaho has access, yes. Montana has block management, which are private lands that the state pays the landowners to open them up to public hunting.
Katie
OK. OK, we have something like that too, yeah.
Jared
Yeah, and Wyoming has that. I'm really blanking on the name of the program. But basically they asked us to remove the layer just because they didn't want that data in the app because it changes so often. And in Wyoming, I believe some of the parcels were only open for weeks at a time. And to make sure we were keeping that all up to date, it was very difficult for Wyoming to basically trust that they could get us the data in time for closures of certain parcels, that they just didn't want that data in the app. So instances like that where they don't want some data in the app. That's where we get a lot of our data is from local government entities.
Katie
And how often is your data updated? Anything from private land, I guess mostly private land parcels. I've noticed that our house, we got it last July and it still says the previous owner lives here, which is not a big deal, it's still private. But how often do those pieces of information get updated?
Jared
Yeah, so we actually try to update each state once per year. We have a dedicated GIS team of, you know, there's probably 30 or so folks on the GIS team that are working on those types of things. But we just recently started an initiative to basically streamline the updating of that data. So hopefully it will be significantly more often than that in the not too distant future.
Katie
Very cool. It's good to know the updated data, not just for, like I said, it still shows that this is private land, it just doesn't show that we live here. Do you think that at some point there will be more information like phone numbers or is that data that you can't ever access?
Jared
So phone numbers have become really hard. We used to have phone numbers in the app. And then actually we got tons of requests from landowners, requesting their phone numbers be pulled from the app.
Katie
I couldn't see that.
Jared
Because they were contacted and they're like, "Well, where did you get my number?" Whatever. And it all came back to us. And so we actually pulled phone numbers from the app back in 2014 or 2015, pretty early on in the app. just since haven't re-added them because quite frankly if you want to try to find a phone number, white pages is pretty easy. And these days there's just not that many people that have landlines anymore. So, you know, it's hard to find a phone number a lot of times.
Katie
Yeah, and I guess at that point, assuming you're in the area, you could just drive up to the person's house and knock on their door, which is the old school way of doing it. Send a letter,
Jared
You know, there's all sorts of ways to get access and that's how I honestly in the app it was snow goose hunting when I was in college and you know you'd find a feed of snow geese and it'd be like all right we got to figure out who owns this parcel and there is not a house anywhere around.
Katie
Yeah. Are there any and maybe you might not be able to share this but like are there any other feature changes not not fishing specific but just to the app that you know are unfolding like I know you guys add features pretty frequently. Recently you've added things like weather for different areas so you can see what the temperature and like wind are doing in any given area.
Jared
Totally.
Katie
Changed waypoints to have different colors and things like that. I know one of the features I've put in requests for is being able to put your waypoints in folders to be able to like turn folders on and off instead of individual waypoints. Do you have any features that you could talk about that you know of coming out anytime soon?
Jared
Absolutely. So yeah the biggest one that we just released like that was last released was the ability to share all markups now so like previously you only could share waypoints and it would the waypoint would come on to whoever you shared it with map but it wouldn't carry over like notes and the name of it and all that stuff so now you can share any markup whether it's a track a shape a waypoint and it will carry all notes and names the same color everything photo waypoints was actually just released we haven't put a communication out on it yet. Um, but you can now attach photos to any way point.
Katie
Oh, that's awesome.
Jared
Yep. So like super useful for like trail cams and what have you, or when you're fishing, if you, you know, catch a bunch of cuts in a hole, throw a photo in there and that way you'll know. Um, so that's forthcoming. And then, so right now we have weather and all of our weather stations are at airports right now. Um, and we are upping that data with, uh, I don't know the exact number, but a plethora of new weather locations to get it more localized to individuals' locations 'cause obviously an airport typically isn't that close to where you might be in the mountains. So we're adding a ton of weather stations here in the near future. Folders, like you've talked about, is definitely something that's on the roadmap. I know 3D imagery is on the roadmap. I can't point to exactly when, but we are constantly adding features. In fact, throughout the fall, I'd say every couple of weeks, there's something new, whether that's a dozen new icons for waypoints or what have you. But photo waypoints and new weather stations are the big two that should be here soon. Well, photo waypoints isn't there.
Katie
That's cool. I had wondered where you got your weather information because I've noticed that a lot of larger towns have it, but then smaller towns wouldn't. And I was like, I'm not sure if it's just a certain size town that they're able to get it from but that makes a lot of sense that it's airports. But like you said, most of the time, you know, if you're off grid, you're not next to an airport. So well,
Jared
and let me tell you one of my favorite secrets about the app. So it's, it's crazy. Actually a lot of people in the office don't even know that it exists. But if you have your rec points layer on so in the trails and rec layer in the layer library, there's a rec point layer. If you turn that on, so then you'll have all these little brown squares, whether it's a ground, a boat ramp, a fishing access, a hiking trail. If you tap on those rec point layers and you scroll down through all of the information that the pop-up gives you, there's a weather option through dark sky, which dark sky weather is actually like, I think it's a couple dollars a month paid app on the app store. Um, but these rec points are embedded with dark skies weather. Uh, and I had that one like right near my elk spot at close to 9,000 feet. and it gave me awesome weather all September. Like it was spot on. And so like, that's honestly the weather that I go to every single time. It's like I go find the nearest wreck point, tap on it, scroll down, find weather, and that's the weather I'm basing off of.
Katie
That's a huge tip. I did not know that was a thing and I have not really used that layer because most of the time I'm fishing somewhere that I know of and I don't need like an access point or anything. But I'm gonna have to add that layer now because that's really useful.
Jared
Here's another one I'll give you.
Katie
All right. Yeah. Share all your secret tips for you. Yeah.
Jared
Yeah. So if like let's say you were way up a mountain road when you're looking on your app determining where you're going to go and you're like, all right, I found my spot. That's where I want to park my car. So if you query that spot on the app, it pulls up that location, tells you public lands, whatever, whatever. Right at the top of that white pop-up, it's gonna tell you the coordinates of that pop-up. So if you tap those coordinates, there's a copy option. And if you copy those coordinates, go into your Google Maps and paste it, it's gonna, Google Maps will take you right there. So like, that's been a feature that's requested a lot is that we have Google Maps integration. And granted, this is an imperfect workaround, but it's a great way to get directions to an obscure location.
Katie
That is a good tip because I have had that issue I'm just trying to compare because like you said you don't have the the 3d so Again for anyone who has not used OnX There's a topo layer a hybrid layer and a satellite and the hybrid is just satellite with topo lines drawn on top But you can't do Like what you can in Google Maps where you can like angle the land down and view things in 3d So a lot of times if I'm trying to look at something in 3d I need to basically turn on satellite view on OnX and then turn on Google Maps and basically find a landmark and compare to find that spot. So it sounds like you can just copy the coordinates straight from the app.
Jared
Copy the coordinates and Google Maps will bring you right to it. And what we refer to as OnX and driving, then you don't have to do so much OnX and driving.
Katie
For sure. Do you know if that would be a feature at any point, being able to navigate?
Jared
It's something that we have definitely looked into extensively. And again, it's on the roadmap.
Katie
That sounds like a big one. Probably one of the larger features.
Jared
Yeah, it's requested so often 'cause you know you have a waypoint that a buddy sent you or some spot that you've never been to and a waypoint on the app, it gets you there. It's just maybe not the most seamless way to get you there.
Katie
Yeah, and it does have kind of a quote unquote navigate option where it's not gonna navigate you on roads, but if you put a, I'm assuming that most people are not using OnX when they're in the city or whatever anyway. They're out in the middle of nowhere where they're on trails and it won't obviously navigate you on the trails, but if you put a waypoint down and tap, like take me to waypoint or I'm not sure what the--
Jared
Go to.
Katie
Yeah, go to. It'll point you in the right direction and then tell you how far it is to that waypoint. Unfortunately, that could be right up over the top of a mountain, you know,
Jared
the shortest distance. Yeah, I mean, it's exactly the same function as like a Garmin GPS is going to. It gives you distance as the crow flies and gives you a bearing on what direction you gotta head.
Katie
And this is probably something I should have checked because for all I know, I'm just using it wrong. Is there a compass function in OnX? Not just that when you're looking at the map, it shows which way is north, but that you can look at it and have a live compass?
Jared
Totally. So if you're looking at the app, you have the three dots on the bottom right-hand corner. So the top one is going to be sat, topo, or hybrid with your base map. The middle one is when it's gray, it just looks like a crosshairs. And if you tap the crosshairs once, it illuminates orange and brings you to your current location. If you tap it twice, that icon turns into a circle with like the GPS triangle in the middle of it. And then that will turn basically a sight cone on with your current location. And you can sit there and spin around and that sight cone will be in the direction that you're facing. That way you have a bearing on which direction you're going. And then anytime you're in what we call compass mode, there will be a compass at the top right of the map there. So that way, not only you have your bearing, but you also have the direction that you're facing.
Katie
Yeah, I might need to use that function because I often switch between OnX and my phone's compass. Just I'll look at OnX and be like, okay, my waypoint is, you know, do east of me, but then I've got to pull out the compass and turn east and everything and then keep switching back and forth. Does it pull from the phone's compass or is it its own standalone compass?
Jared
Pulls from the phone's compass, which actually like smartphone compasses are getting more and more and more accurate. And the latest blurb that I'd read is that some of the newest smartphones are like accurate to within three feet.
Katie
Oh, wow.
Jared
Yep.
Katie
That's nice. I use mine and I'm in an area that I know well enough and there's service and it's not a huge area and I'm not too worried about getting lost because I've been there a bunch of times and I've got service. But I tend to use my phone's compass for that reason because I'm like, I'm not that worried about getting lost, I'm just using this to help me navigate around. But I do always carry an extra compass on me just in case that one is faulty, but it's good to hear that it's-- Old school. Yeah, it's good to hear that that is pretty accurate.
Jared
Yeah.
Katie
And I found that via using the app and the compass that it usually ends up taking me in the right direction.
Jared
Well, glad to hear you haven't got lost yet.
Katie
Yeah, not yet. Well, is there anything else that you would like to chat about in terms of the app? Anything people might want to know? Or anything related to fishing? Or just in general?
Jared
I think we covered the app pretty dang well. You know, we've talked to a lot of it, and especially as far as fishing. I mean, as we talked about earlier, there's a ton of use cases for it. So I think we're pretty well covered.
Katie
I guess I have one last question. If you do come out with more of a fishing-specific vertical, would that be a standalone app, kind of like the off-road, or would that be a set of layers that is added into the existing app?
Jared
No, it would definitely be a standalone app, and that's what we're more exploring with these new verticals. It's a lot of market research to see how many folks currently use fishing apps and what parts of the current because there's so many fishing apps out there currently. But to be honest with you, like none of them really. Do all of the functionality that OnX does cater for fishing, a lot of them are more like for the social aspect of like showing people what you caught were, you know, like what what you were using, you know, that type of thing. So so I think there's there's a market for it. I just don't think that we've dove into it deep enough to to be there yet,
Katie
Right. I definitely agree. I think there's a lot of fishing apps and some of them are map related, but it's usually like I caught this fish right here and I can tag my location.
Jared
Yeah
Katie
Not so much to be used while you're fishing. It's to be after you're done.
Jared
Who's trying to tell the world where they caught that fish? Like, not me.
Katie
It's a lot of it, I've noticed, is like in in cities where it's like I went to this city pond. I really don't care if someone does like caught a bass out of my local park. But it's definitely a lot more of like after you're done fishing you go into the app and you do things with it Not to be pulled out while you're actually on the water So I think there definitely be a big market and like I said I I think a lot of people who fish don't know about on next just because it's not marketed to them Yep even though it's like I said I use it more for fishing than I do for hunting probably because I fish more than I But I use it all the time. I use I just browse it at work, you know, just bored just go on and look at areas and see what's open.
Jared
It's pretty amazing how many new spots and new places you can find to explore for $30.
Katie
For sure. Oh I keep thinking of more questions. Where do you get your satellite imagery and how often is that updated?
Jared
So actually our current satellite imagery is actually Google imagery and we just got that imagery last year and so like we don't have any control on how often they're updating. And obviously like Google is constantly updating satellite imagery but they're only able to constantly update so many locations at a time. But we actually have some grander plans with satellite imagery that will hopefully be forthcoming.
Katie
Very cool. Well do you want to share like either where people can find OnX or just you if they want to follow along with what you're up to?
Jared
Yeah, absolutely. Well, OnX, we're on Instagram with OnX Hunt, onxmaps.com. And then on Instagram, I'm @jaredclarsen, so feel free to give me a follow. Certainly do plenty of hunting and fishing. It's pretty much what I do outside of snowboarding. So yeah, thanks for listening. And Katie, thanks for having me on.
Katie
Yeah, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. This was very insightful, and I'm excited to go check out all the features you mentioned.
Jared
Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's stay in touch and next time in Colorado we'll have to go hit the water.
Katie
Sounds good. All right, and that's a wrap on episode number seven. As always, if you liked what you heard, go ahead and head over to the Wild Initiative podcast. You can subscribe there and get all my shows every Thursday, as well as all of Sam's other shows throughout the week. You can also find my episodes on the website, fishuntamed.com, in addition to weekly backcountry fly fishing articles. And you can find me on social media @fishuntamed on Instagram or Katie Burgert on Go Wild. I'll see you next week!
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