Ep 56: Superstition and Wild Places, with Allen Crater
Allen Crater is a backcountry fanatic who has been on many adventures over the years. He just got back from a trip into the Montana backcountry with his two sons and came on to share some stories. In this episode, we discuss his recent trip to Montana, how having a little superstition in fishing can be helpful, and some of his previous trips that taught him a lesson or two about being in wild places.
Instagram: @allenoutside
Website: allenoutside.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 56 with Allen Crater on superstition and wild places. Just to get started then, before we get into the stories, I'd love to hear how you got your start in the outdoors and fishing.
Allen
Yeah, I mean my background in fishing is a little bit mixed. So I think, I mean I've always had a love for outdoors. I grew up camping, you know, basically car camping with my parents and grandparents. And we always, you know, that was just something we did in the summer and in the fall. So I've just always loved being outdoors. I love to hunt as well. So I started hunting with my dad when I was 12 and have hunted ever since. And then we always fished. I mean, it was usually, you know, pan fishing, you know, kind of, you know, we're chasing bluegills, we're chasing bass, maybe a little bit of pike, a lot of spin fishing. And then I actually got into fly fishing more recently. That was probably about eight or nine years ago. And my oldest son, who's now 21, wanted to learn how to fly fish. He was, I don't know, 13, 12 or 13 at the time. And he says, "I want to learn how to fly fish." And I didn't know anything about fly fishing. So I thought, "That sounds cool. "I don't know how to help you, "but I will try to kind of support you in that journey "'cause it looks awesome." And we happen to, we have a family cottage in Northern Michigan up in Baldwin. And it happens to be on really close to one of the most outstanding fisheries in Michigan on the Pere Marquette River. People travel from all over to fish it. But it was something I didn't really know much about, because that wasn't what my focus was. We always fished on the lake. And I didn't really even realize this resource that was right in our backyard. So he wanted to learn how to fly fish. We took him out and bought him a combo kit at the local fly shop and asked-- actually, we got his first kit off of Craigslist. like $65 combo kit. We didn't even know what it did or what it was and went to the fly shop and grabbed a few things that they told us to and went out on the river and kind of flailed around and I watched and he flailed and I ended up running into a friend at a trade show for my day job and she said, "Hey, you know, my boyfriend is a football coach. He loves fly fishing. He's really good at teaching kids, we'd love to, you know, he'd love to show your son the ropes if you're okay with that. And they had a place kind of in the same area. So we went and met up with Matt. And he started showing my son like kind of some of the basics and I was always there just kind of watching and observing. And I thought, man, this looks really cool. I want to I want to kind of join this journey. So I ended up going out and buying some gear and then kind of going out with Matt and my son and then sometimes with just Matt or sometimes with just my son and, and picked it up. And it, I mean, I don't need to tell you, it's a really, uh, a slippery slope when you get into fly fishing, it's so addictive, I mean, it's bad. Right. So, um, that's, that's kind of how my journey into fly fishing started, but I've always been into, you know, backpacking too. So I've been backpacking since I was probably 18, kind of, uh, similar probably to your desire, like car camping is cool, it's fun. You sit around the campfire and you're, you know, you're in a campground, but you're out, you're outdoors, but I wanted to just get away and see stuff that you couldn't see unless you put some miles on the boots. And, um, so started doing that, uh, when I was 18 and, and never really looked back and then when, when the fly fishing came into the picture, then it was my chance to kind of combine the two and two, you know, kind of two passions. And one, I have some regrets now looking back at some of the places I backpack that I didn't have a rod with me. I want to go back and make good on that because I was in some really fishy spots without a rod with me and now I look back and think, "Oh, what a waste."
Katie
So I assume you said you had fished before you started fly fishing and I assume you weren't carrying a lightweight spin setup back into any of these places.
Allen
No, some of my buddies did and I didn't. Partly I was just psycho about the weight and I didn't want to drag it along and then they're hooking up with fish and I'm like, "Man, this is a major miss on my part." But I've actually, I don't think I've ever even done spin fishing on a backpacking trip. So it was always, once I got into fly fishing, that fly rod went with me on every trip and it stays in my, several of them stay in my car at all times just in case of an emergency, right?
Katie
How did your son come across fly fishing and decide he wanted to do it?
Allen
You know, I'm not even sure. I don't know what kind of ignited that itch in him. I really don't know. I I've actually never asked him that question. I probably should. It was just one of those things where my kids always, I mean, my kids had fishing poles in their hands since they could walk. So they were always into fishing. Um, but again, it was kind of like the fishing that I grew up with. It was pan fish and we were fishing off the dock or out of the fishing boat for bass and bluegill and walleye and pike. And, um, I think he just wanted a different challenge. Maybe he's, maybe he saw a river runs through it. Maybe, well, I don't know. I don't know how he, uh,
Katie
you don’t know what he's doing in his free time.
Allen
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what kind of lit that spark, but it's interesting. We look back and kind of laugh about it because it's become a pretty substantial part of my life. I look back and think, "What if he never had gotten into that?" Or "What if I never joined him?" Or "What if we never met Matt?" Like, "What would my life today look like?" Because fly fishing is such a huge part of what I spend my time and money and brainpower so it's just weird to think of how those little those little things in life kind of can change your total trajectory.
Katie
And then how about your other son because I know that some of the trips we'll be talking about are you and your two sons so did your other son kind of just join you guys at a point?
Allen
Yep so he's he's probably more of our spin fisherman like he loves to go chase bass he loves to chase big pike like big pike are kind of his his jam and he's always he started going fly fishing with us he kind of didn't love it it was he he liked it but he didn't love it um i don't know if it was just too tranquil for him or not aggressive enough or whatever so he kind of just stopped doing it for a little bit and then he started to get back into it more recently and then he went out to visit so my oldest son moved to Montana in 2018 to go to school out in Montana my younger son obviously was still at home and last summer my younger son went out and stayed with his brother for a week and they fly fish really hard while he was out there and he had quite a bit of success and I think that kind of rekindled that flame for him for like you know loving fly fishing. I don't think my older son would even spin fish anymore. My younger son well he's not fussy like he'll catch a fish any way that it's available to him but so He kind of had that week out there that rekindled that flame fish with me a little bit more heavily back in Michigan. And then this past summer after he graduated high school, he moved out with his brother again just kind of for a, it was supposed to be just for the summer and he was going to kind of have like a fun summer and they were going to fish and backpack and do all that. Now he's going to stay through the end of elk hunting season and then he's going to come back to Michigan. But being out west really, I think kind of rekindled that fire for him for fly fishing.
Katie
Yeah, I could see that. And I obviously now that I have a passion for it, I'll go do it anywhere for any fish, but I could kind of see that growing up in a place where maybe that's not like the dominant culture and there's kind of that romantic Western view of, you know, someone casting a fly rod with mountains in the background that just seems like it fits. And I could see if that's not what you're doing, you might feel like, "I don't really feel the connection to this." But then maybe when you come out there and suddenly put yourself in that position, how you kind of, I don't know, develop that burn. Like, "Okay, I kind of like this. I like the feeling of this."
Allen
Yeah, I think that's totally part of it. I mean, I think there's a million quotes about setting being such a part of fly fishing, and like trout don't live in ugly places, that kind of idea. So, I mean, even the places in Michigan are beautiful, but you kind of take for granted what's in your own backyard. But then you end up out on the Madison or out on the Gallatin or somewhere out west and like you said you've got this backdrop of mountains and it's just this beautiful beautiful water the fish are plentiful all sudden you know it does take on that more romantic quality and you think man yeah this is pretty this is pretty cool I could I could keep doing this for a long time so yeah I think I think you're totally right setting is such a huge part of why I love fly fishing I think why a lot of people love fly fishing.
Katie
Is it going off on that just as a since we're gonna be talking like mostly about kind of getting out in the backcountry What draws you to to those areas? Is it just being away from people? Is it the views? Is it like what what is it or is it everything together?
Allen
Yeah, that's such a tough question to answer I think it's so many things. I mean part of it is there's this I don't know if it's just something that's innate in human nature but to be to be in a place where you know very few people have been or to be able to have an opportunity to see something that you know, you're not going to be able to see from that easy pull off, or you're not going to be able to see if you don't get a couple miles off the trail. You know, it's kind of like your own little secret, or it just feels more special because it's less touched, to put it that way. There's very few places that are untouched, but you know, it's much less touched. I think there is that, I don't want to sound anti-social, but I do kind of like the solitude, being you know either being by myself or with a couple of close friends or with close family members or something about that too and then there's just something that you know there's not really necessarily a true danger but there's like this little bit of perception of danger that makes it more that kind of heightens all the excitement too so I think there I think it's just a combination of so many things
Katie
yeah you know something you just said made me think of something that I've never really considered before but you you mentioned kind of just it feels like something that you have that maybe not a lot of people have had before and I know obviously for us that is the experience of getting out somewhere far away that no one else or it feels like no one else has been before. I wonder if that's almost the same draw that people have for buying something that's really expensive or going to an exclusive event or something like that. It's obviously not like our realm in this case but I think there's just an innate human desire to have things that like not a And for those of us who can't afford the nicest stuff or get invited to the exclusive celebrity parties, this is something that anybody can get that still feels like something that not a lot of people have had before. But it's all on you to earn it and just get it. It's not limited necessarily by means or by who you know, but it's kind of that same drive to have something that's your own that not everyone gets the chance to experience.
Allen
I think that's exactly it. sounds kind of selfish but there is like this weird kind of feeling of exclusivity or even possession like you get to possess that place or that moment even though it's public land you kind of possess it maybe in a way that not any not everybody else either chooses to or can and yeah I mean I think I think it probably does kind of you know whatever stimulate the the human nature in a way that's similar I think you're totally right.
Katie
So on this trip I read briefly on your website about it, but I didn't want to answer all my own questions by just reading about it. So tell me about how this trip came to be. How did the planning process go? I know this is with your son, so I assume they had a little bit of say in it too, but can you just talk me through how this trip came to be?
Allen
Yeah, so the most recent trip was just actually a week or two ago, and my wife and I hit this weird empty nest stage like really quickly. So my older son had been gone. He's been off at college in Montana since 2018. So we kind of got used to that. But we had my younger son at home. And then we had our dog. And the younger son, you know, he's Blake said he decided he wanted to move out to Montana for a while. And that was cool. So then it got a little bit quieter. And then we had that we had the dog that for 13 and a half years that we had to put down and it got real quiet and we kind of knew that was coming. I knew I had a trip that was coming up for business purposes you know out in their general area so I just kind of sent them a message and said hey could you guys take a couple days off, turned into a little bit more than a couple days, but can you guys take a couple days off of work and hang out with dad and they were they were pretty excited about it. We spot for all of us where we really we enjoy the outdoors so much we enjoy the pursuit so much but it really is one of those places where we really feel close to each other so they made the time and I was able to kind of piggyback so I flew out for my business trip to Idaho they swung down and picked me up and then I flew home back out of Montana so I was able to kind of I knew I was able to kind of have a little bit of cost savings there with the flight and it worked out for them. So that's kind of how it happened. And it was, the planning was really loose. And we just said, you know, basically our group goal was we want to have an adventure that involves fishing and beyond that, it doesn't matter. And so they had a lot of kind of local in, you know, Intel and insights that I don't have. So I just said, let's go, let's go do some stuff that you maybe haven't done before. Let's explore some new water. Let's find some new places, but let's do it together and make it kind of an adventure.
Katie
And so how did you decide on a place to go?
Allen
So again, it was pretty loose to the point where my oldest son and myself, to some extent, we're fairly type A and we like to have a fairly well-planned agenda. It made us both a little anxious because we didn't know. And the other thing that was going on at the same time, and I'm sure you're experiencing it in Colorado, was just Montana's having crazy drought conditions and really incredibly bad heat. And so the rivers are in really bad shape. They're pulling off a lot of water for irrigation. So water levels are low. Water temperatures are high because of all the heat and the lack of rain. So some of our planning had to be a little bit fluid because stuff was starting to shut down. They were starting to shut down, especially like in the Southwest part of Montana where they live, which has a ton of really great water right there, really wasn't even an option for us. Those were on hoot owl hours to protect the fishing. Some of them were shut down entirely. So we knew we had to either get up into some alpine lakes or kind of get to some water that were more spring creek type water where we could have cooler water where it would be safe to fish for the trout. So we only had those two things in mind. And then the boys had hiked up to this, this, uh, this lake up in the tobacco roots, right? Uh, I dunno, probably right at ice out. So still like, you know, going through some waist deep snow at the top and getting to this lake right at ice out. And they, they really did well. And they landed some gigantic cutthroat. I mean, they really hammered some fish. And so when they sent me the pics, I said, Hey, that maybe we should go back there And if you can make that at least part of the trip and they, you know, they thought that was a good idea and it wasn't a bad hike. It was only like four miles. So we knew we could kind of knock that off real easy. So we knew that was going to be one piece of it. And then after that, it was just, um, some recommendations from some friends on some places we should check out. And then, uh, that all changed last minute. I actually, we were leaving from the lake that we backpacked from and we were heading way to the Northwest corner. We're going to be way up by like the Thompson River, way up in that area. And we were cruising through Missoula. Or on our way through Missoula. And I texted a buddy that lives there that has a business there. And I said, Hey, you know, we're cruising through, you know, maybe we can say hi real quick. And so we stopped by his shop and we told him what our plans were. And he just said, no, man, that's not, you don't need to, don't, don't go to the Thompson. I'm going to send you a couple of places that are kind of low key that not a lot people know about. He basically gave us some pretty serious intel in terms of some places to go where there weren't going to be a lot of people but there were going to be a lot of fish. We kind of literally changed plans mid-trip and went with his recommendations and it turned out really well.
Katie
Now, are you a planner because you feel less stressed when you have an itinerary or do you just love the planning process?
Allen
Oh man, I think it's both. Part of it is I own a business, I'm a dad, I'm used to making plans. That's how my personality is. I like to have structure, but to me, the planning process extends your trip a little bit, if that makes sense. You're shaking your head. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we probably come at this from the same place because if I can start planning maybe two or three months before a trip, it's almost like that's part of the trip a little bit. Maybe I start packing a little bit and I start researching and I've got maps and I've got books and it just kind of extends that whole experience just a little bit longer.
Katie
Oh, I agree. That's what I was wondering because you said sometimes you get a little stressed when it's not all planned out and I figured that might be part of it, but that it wasn't all just I need to have it set out ahead of time, or OCD kicks in and I need to know everything. I figured it might be that. It's fun to look at maps and read up on places and see what people have caught where. It does extend the trip a bit.
Allen
Oh yeah. It is actually in some ways some of my favorite parts. That anticipation is always so high, and then you're scouring maps and online sites, and you're just checking different stuff out. just builds that anticipation for sure.
Katie
There's also I think a level of fun when you arrive somewhere and it's it's almost like a challenge to see how well you thought you knew it. Like have you ever looked at a place you know on satellite imagery and you're looking at Google Earth and pictures from it and you show up and you have this image in your mind of what it's gonna look like and it's almost like oh wow this is exactly how I thought it was gonna be. Like I feel almost satisfied in that way or like whoa I had no idea it was gonna be like this because it you know it didn't appear to me that way. It's like it's fun either way.
Allen
I've definitely had more of the latter. Not anything like what I thought it was, but it's awesome in a totally different way. So it's like a fun little, it's like a surprise, you know, you unwrap a present. It's not what you thought you're gonna get, but it's something even better.
Katie
Right. I agree. So tell me, I guess, get me started on the trip itself. You know, how did it start out?
Allen
So I was wrapping up kind of a project for scientific anglers in Idaho. So and in that area with Jeff Currier for Scientific Anglers, we were filming and photographing all that. So that was a total blast. You know, we were hanging out with fishy people. And then I was kind of stuck in that, like that part of Idaho. So I'm about four hours from the boys. They came down and picked me up and we hopped in the car, went back to the apartment that they live in and kind of just crashed and started packing and getting ready for the next day. And then we headed out to the mountains and we had quite a drive to get to the place we were going and then quite a drive to just get into the trailhead. And then we went up to the lake. The lake was just, it was kind of, I love backpacking and it was exactly what I needed. I've been training decently hard because I'm out hunting out with the boys this, this fall. Um, so I know I need to kind of work on my cardio and keep, keep going, or I'm really going to be in trouble. But, um, this was a nice, easy one. It was, you know, four miles, mostly uphill. So it wasn't bad. I mean, it took us, you know, under two hours, but it was enough, you know, and it's, it's, it was far enough in that it kept most people out of there. And it was, uh, I think we were going in on a Monday or Tuesday, so it wasn't busy. There were a few day hikers when we got there and they all cleared out. So we literally had the entire lake to ourself. We just set up camp and I mean, we started fishing as soon as possible and the cutthroat were plentiful. We didn't get quite, we didn't get into quite as big of fish as they did at ice out, but we were getting into some really nice fish and I don't wanna say easily, but frequently. And then we, you know, we did all the backpacking stuff. So we, you know, we had, we had dinner and we had a couple of pulls from the flask and we just started laughing and joking and it just kind of, you know, just getting to the lake immediately kind of put me at, in a different place. I was feeling a little bit stress coming off, you know, the stuff with the dog and work and not seeing the boys and then just getting to that place already just kind of changed my mood and then just sitting around, you know, eating, you know, crappy camp food and, and, uh, you know, having a few drinks with the kids and sharing stories was just like, it just kind of changed everything. And then the next morning we woke up and just started fishing pretty hard again and then, um, worked our way around and then we just, we kind of motored out of there. We had, um, we had all the stuff in the truck to go somewhere. We just didn't know where that somewhere was going to be yet. So we had, I mean, the truck was just chock full. So we had We had all the fishing stuff, but we knew we had decent food and beer back in the cooler at the truck. So we made it back to the truck pretty quick. Uh, had like a, you know, like a lunch and then we just got on the road and we were kind of making plans as we went, you know, we, like I said, we were planning on heading up towards the Thompson and in that area and, um, our route took us through Missoula and that's when everything kind of changed when we talked to Dan. So, uh, we kind of changed trajectory, went to a place where we could car camp, which, um, is not my favorite, but it does have its, um, it's, it's advantages, a little more comfortable. Um, we can eat real food. We had a bigger stove. We could, you know, we were cooking brats and all kinds of food you don't always eat when you're backpacking. So, uh, did that, we fished, uh, the body of water that was right in our backyard there for about three days. And it was, it's a phenomenal, it was a phenomenal fishery and I'm kind of sworn to secrecy on this. I'm not gonna talk about it, but it was beautiful and phenomenal fishing. And then there was one other additional spot that Dan had told us to go hit. And so we made a kind of a day trip to that spot and that was even more unreal in terms of fishing. And then, uh, came back to kind of our, our quote unquote campsite. So it was just a, it was, it was a phenomenal time just in terms of the fishing, but also just the scenery, lots of like really diverse, you know, so you're in an Alpine Lake and then you're on a this, this unbelievable river that has, you know, boulder fields and riffles and then big pools and in a little bit of everything. And then we went to a totally different water system that felt totally different and really unique. So it was like three kind of very unique experiences into one trip with the common thread being camping outdoors with my boys and fishing.
Katie
Do you have a preference in terms of like alpine lakes versus rivers? You know assuming they're all kind of remote and they're all kind of in their prime, do you have a preference?
Allen
I prefer moving water if possible. There's something about it I like more. I mean the alpine lakes are unreal and I've caught some unreal fish out of alpine lakes but it's just not my favorite style of fishing and I was reading a few things on your page and you know you kind of talk about well you don't always have to bring the waders or the boots and you know sometimes you can get in a little ways if you're just wearing sandals but I always have this feeling when I'm fishing alpine lakes if I could just get out a little further I could get into the fish and you know still water fishing is just different. I like to have a little just I think the fishing is just a little different when you have moving water. You have to do things a little differently. You have to cast a little different. You have to mend. You have to, you just have to pay attention to different stuff. And it also kind of helps you, you can, you have a better idea of where the fish are going to be. You can tell where the pockets are. You can tell, you know, what's going to hold fish on a lake. You know, yeah, you can work the shoreline, but it limits you. Sometimes you don't have room for a back cast, or sometimes you can't get out quite as far as you'd like, or there's There's just, you know, there's limitations in a river. I feel like you can get in it and be more intimate with it. And I guess I prefer that, but they're both amazing. I have nothing bad to say about either of those options.
Katie
Yeah, I do kind of agree that, you know, you show up at any small mountain stream and you can pretty quickly figure out where the fish are going to be and access that. And lakes, even though I'm sure, like, I'm probably not as well versed in lakes as I am in rivers, but I feel, I don't feel completely out of place. Like some people don't know where to even start with a lake. And I feel like I'm not quite that far back. But I do feel like lakes are more of an individual basis. Like you show up at some and it seems really obvious what to do. And you show up at others and you're like, I've tried everything and nothing's working. And I just don't experience that as often on the mountain streams. It's pretty straightforward every time. And I'm impressed by people who can nail any lake.
Allen
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I've actually been on trips. I was on a trip not too long ago to the Sawtooth Mountains in Idaho, and we hit, we hit probably six or seven different lakes on our backpacking trip. And there were some of them that were lights out, and there were some of them that looked exactly the same as the ones that were lights out, that we didn't touch a fish. And I don't know if there weren't fish there, or we just couldn't crack the code. But it was really surprising, because all the elements seemed basically the same and we couldn't catch a fish and then you go to the next lake and you catch 30. And so it is a little bit of a weird, you know, how do you crack the code and is it where the fish are holding? Is it that they're not there? Is it that, you know, you're not using the right stuff? You know, I don't know.
Katie
Yeah, that's the other thing is I feel like for at least like not maybe not large rivers but you can kind of assume, I mean, if it's a large river you generally know if there's fish in it or not. Do people fish it or do they not? But for small creeks if you want and you're like, there they are. With lakes, if you don't get eyes on a fish, it can be kind of maddening to think, you look out and you see, was that a rise or was that like a bug on the water? Or was that bubbles rising? And you get tricked into having this, I don't know, like weird back and forth, like, I'm not sure if there's fish here or not. And you can spend a lot of time on a lake without ever actually setting eyes on a fish or any evidence of one. And they could be there, they could not be. I mean, they could just be down low and not feeding on the surface and you'd never know. Or they could be completely barren.
Allen
Yeah, and I've hit, we've hit those barren lakes in, uh, that trip on the sawtooth was really something we started out in one area and the fishing was phenomenal. And we knew we wanted to get to this other lake that looked just incredible, but we had to go quite a ways to get to it. And I either, we were really off or that lake was barren because we just couldn't touch a fish. And I was, I was there for the backpacking part of things and I was enjoying the scenery, but I was really frustrated. we went up and over a saddle to some other lakes and then it just turned on again. I almost had like the sigh of relief like, "Oh my gosh, okay, it's not me." Or maybe it was me, but I got over it.
Katie
You can still catch fish.
Allen
Right, I can still catch fish. I thought maybe just my ability to catch fish had just ended because the lake looked like it should have held tons of fish, but we didn't see any, we didn't move any, and I thought, "What is going on?"
Katie
Yeah, especially because, at least I don't know how it is in Montana, but a lot of the lakes in Colorado were barren before they were stocked. It's easy to think that because all the rivers around here held cutthroats back in the day that they were also open lakes, but that just wasn't the case. A lot of them were completely empty. And so you go up there now and it's easy to just assume that if it looks good there's probably fish in there and it's like, well, no, not necessarily. Maybe it never had fish, maybe the winter killed, who knows. And you can have a lake that's connected to it that is is full of fish and you'd think they'd probably spread from one to the other, but it's not as obvious as you'd think it might be.
Allen
Yeah, totally. I've definitely had that experience, 100%.
Katie
We had a, just as a side tangent here, we had a trip last year that went up, we swore we could see rises on this lake, and it wasn't until at one point we saw what was making these rises, it was like leeches coming up from the bottom, and I don't, actually I don't know if it was like leeches or some small, it almost looked like a tadpole, which seemed odd. But these little creatures were just slithering their way to the surface, making contact with it, and then diving back to the bottom. And I have no idea, like I've never seen it, I've never seen it since, I never saw it before that, but it was just these little leech tadpole creatures coming to the surface and breaking the surface. And we're like, that's what we've been fishing for for the past, I don't know, two hours here? Like thinking we're seeing rises? So it's like, even if you think you see something, your eyes might be deceiving you. Huh.
Allen
Did you end up pulling any fish out of there?
Katie
Nope. And every other lake in the area we caught fish out of. So I don't, I have no idea. And I talked to somebody who had fished that lake a couple of years prior and they were like, oh yeah, there were fish in there when we were there, but they weren't hard to catch. And so I'm like, I don't know if they all died off because you'd think if they had been super easy to catch before we would have, I mean, we had multiple people there fishing and no one even so much as saw a fish. So I don't, I don't know, but it's, that's just kind of like the fun of it is it can change so quickly that even if you hear something, your experience might be completely different once you get there, which is kind of fun. Like you said, opening a present, when you get there, you can find anything.
Allen
Right. Yeah, exactly. That's it. And you do your best to get as much intel and research as you can ahead of time, and then it's just a matter of how it turns out. And that's the fun. Absolutely.
Katie
So most of the fish you were catching, were they all cutthroats or did you catch anything else? I saw some brown trout, I guess, in your pictures. the last trip?
Allen
It was actually unreal. The river that we fished in the middle part of our trip, we caught cutties, we caught bows, we caught browns, we caught brookies, and we actually accidentally caught four bull trout.
Katie
Oh, really? Is that what I saw? I thought maybe... I saw something that looked almost like a splake. Was that a small bull trout?
Allen
Yeah.
Katie
Okay.
Allen
Yeah. They look like a splake or they look real similar to... A lot of their markings are similar to a brookie but you can definitely tell like their mouth is different they just look a little bit like a kind of a not quite right brookie.
Katie
Yeah that's what I thought I was like that looks kind of like a brookie but not quite it looks a little I don't know more like a torpedo and I was like maybe that's a splake but I couldn't I couldn't see it super clearly so I wasn't sure but okay that answers that question.
Allen
Yeah so we got and then you know of course the in Montana you can't ever get off a river without catching some whitefish so we got into a few of those too but yeah I mean that fishery was unreal. It was just, I was actually surprised that it held that many different species and that they could kind of coexist and in healthy, all the populations of them seemed healthy. So it was pretty cool.
Katie
Now I have to ask, are you a whitefish fan or do you hate it when you hook one?
Allen
I hate it.
Katie
Really?
Allen
Yeah.
Katie
Man, I love whitefish.
Allen
Really? Well they fight, they'll give you a good fight. That's why I like them. I don't get into them that often. I guess I don't Most of the time when my, whoever I'm fishing with gets into them, they're fishing, you know, like an indicator or a dropper. I don't do, I don't love, I don't love that kind of fishing. Like I don't love fishing under an indicator and I don't really love even running it. I'll run a dropper, but it's not my favorite way to catch fish, I don't know why. I prefer to either fish dry flies on top or big terrestrials, or I really love streamer fishing. So I don't usually get into the whitefish. I did, I did catch a couple on the, on a dry fly actually, when we first got to Idaho for our scientific angler's trip. And it was the same thing when you're talking about the leeches, I could see these fish feeding. And I was like, all right. And I knew this was a spot that held cutties and, uh, I was fishing. I kept missing these fish. And I'm like, why do I keep missing these strikes? Well, then it turns out I hooked a couple and they're, you know, they're white fish and their mouths are tiny. So it's almost impossible for them to take the dry, but I get mad when I catch
Katie
Huh, okay. Yeah, I really there's two different camps on whitefish and I'm very pro whitefish If I find out that there's whitefish in the river, I'm dredging the bottom.
Allen
You're just going after them, I mean, they're heavy and they fight
Katie
Yeah, I feel like when I fished areas that have whitefish and trout when I catch a trout. Um, it feels like I'm just pulling in like a stick. You know, I just want something that yanks back and maybe that's having grown up a smallmouth bass and being used to that and going to trout. I'm like this thing's not putting up a big enough fight. But yeah, I'm just I was I'm curious when people catch whitefish if they're pro whitefish or anti whitefish.
Allen
Oh, it's so funny because like when you first hook up, you know, my heart just jumps because if you know it's it feels very substantial, you know, like you hook up and you're like, oh, okay good fish. And then I'm thinking my favorite trout are brown trout. So I'm always thinking oh, yeah big brown trout and then I can tell after a couple minutes like no, that's not a that's not a brown trout. And then I just have like that, I open the present and I'm disappointed kind of feeling.
Katie
It sucks. Yeah.
Allen
Whitefish, really? But I can see how they're, I mean, if you just kind of get that out of your head and then you just think about the fight, they're great fighters. And your comparison to smallies is great. We have a ton of smallmouth fisheries here and they're a blast to catch.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah, I guess it might depend on whether, like, I think I value the fight itself. I mean, I feel like I catch a lot of larger whitefish. They just tend to get larger. And I value that, whereas I think a lot of people value the beauty of the trout, which obviously, if you're valuing beauty, whitefish are going to be way at the bottom.
Allen
Right. Yes, that's where they fall for me.
Katie
So was there any more to this trip, or did you want to move on to some of your previous trips to Wyoming or Idaho? I saw you had a whole bunch of lists on your website.
Allen
Yeah, we can talk about any of them. trip was I mean I really summarize you know that trip pretty quickly but and it was it was really to be honest if you boil it down it was just a chance for me to have kind of an adventure with my kids it really I love catching fish don't don't get me wrong and I get frustrated if I'm not catching fish but this like the fishing a little bit I want to say just a little bit didn't matter it was really about like okay I'm going to be outdoors I'm going to be in beautiful places and I'm going to be with my kids and the rest of it is just gravy you know or icing on the cake so So I kind of blew through the fishing part of that pretty quick. But really the big thing for me was just having that time together with my boys. I hadn't seen them both in a little while. It was great to catch up and just watch them be successful. They smoked me on the last river we went to. It was the best fishing we had on the whole trip. And I caught one fish and they were absolutely... And it was my style of fishing. It was streamers for brown trout. And that's my favorite combination. I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna run these boys." I got destroyed. It was really, I mean, it was pretty brutal. To the point where it was becoming a joke like, "Hey, net another fish for me and take my picture while you just sit there and get eaten by mosquitoes because you're not catching anything." I mean, I got run.
Katie
I have to ask though, when that happens, is it a jealous moment or is it a proud dad moment? Or is it a little bit of both?
Allen
Both. Both. I mean, you know, like, at first I'm like, you know, anytime someone that you're fishing with hooks, like I get excited when someone I'm fishing with hooks up. Like I don't care if it's my fish or whose fish it is. But there's a little bit of like, I still have to kind of at least maintain this idea of alpha dog even though I'm not anymore. And when they're just running me, it's a little bit humiliating. And I get a little, I don't get mad about the fact that they're catching fish. I get mad about the fact that I'm not.
Katie
Yeah, I think that's something that everyone must experience. But it's like, yeah, I get excited when my friends hook fish, but I always get a little more excited when I'm also hooking fish throughout the day.
Allen
Yes. Yeah, that makes that pill a lot easier to swallow. And that night I caught one fish and it was like a 13 inch brown trout. And that was my whole fish. And so yeah, if I would have been catching fish, it would have been a little easier to swallow, but I wasn't. I was, you know, have you ever fished with, usually it works the other way for me. Like, um, I'll have someone fishing with me and they're like, well, I'm doing the same thing you are, but I'm not catching fish. And I'm like, ha ha. It's because I'm so good or whatever, which I'm not. I didn't even know what the, I have no idea what the difference is, but like they could have the same fly, be fishing it the same way. And for whatever reason, you're having a good night and you're catching the fish and they're not.
Katie
Right. You're chalking up to like fishiness. Like, I don't know. Sometimes you just, you're just in the zone.
Allen
Yeah. Like, oh, you're just, you're just, some people are just fishier. or it's my lucky hat or whatever. So I had the opposite experience. So I was, I was, I literally actually had given the streamer that my younger son was using to him. I'm like, hey, try this. And he started slamming fish. So I'm like, well, I'm going to use the same thing. I'm putting it in the same spots. I'm doing the same stuff. I'm using the exact same streamer and I am not, and I'm not hooking anything. And he's, I mean, he's literally like cast after cast, just hooking fish. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to go sit in the truck and cry for a little bit. But it wasn't that, it was so fun to watch that excitement. Cuz it was fun and it was like kind of nonstop action, especially right at the end, it's fun. And we have a pretty competitive but fun relationship, the boys and I. So I'll dish it out and I gotta take it when it's my turn to take it and they were definitely giving it to me, but that's all part of the fun.
Katie
Yeah, sometimes you dish it out a little too much when you're ahead and then it comes back to bite you.
Allen
That definitely happened.
Katie
Another quick story for you, because you made me think of this when you said that you could set things up the exact same way. My friend and I once were fishing in Wyoming a couple years ago, and it was like that, and I was on your side, where I was not catching anything, and she was catching fish after fish after fish, and I mimicked everything. I was like, "Okay, how far is it from your indicator to your split shot? How far is it from your split shot to your first fly? How far is it from that to your second fly?" I mimicked the exact setup and I still could not catch anything and she was still pulling them out So I'm like well, I'm gonna come to the hole you're in and see if I can do it there still couldn't catch anything And I'm like, let's switch rods here. We switched rods. I started hooking up on her rod.
Allen
Really
Katie
With the exact same setup and the only difference was that I had a pink indicator on and she had a white indicator and since then I've thrown away all my colored indicators because I'm like superstitious now that They can see it and I've refused to fish with the colored indicator
Allen
Isn't that funny? so I think there's so many there's so many parts of that like how wild is that story like that? Did you try putting her indicator on your rod just to see like it?
Katie
No we just switched rods and when she stopped catching fish and I started catching fish just from switching rods that were set up the exact same way
Allen
And she wasn’t catching anything on your rod, right?
Katie
Yeah It just switched and I was like something something's going on with this rod is either the rod is lucky or it The only difference was that she had a white indicator on and I now I'm superstitious Like I will not throw a pink indicator or like any color because I'm just that that memory is just burned in my mind
Allen
That's so hilarious. So I'm crazy superstitious So which is funny because you'll have like one experience like that and now you're like, okay I'm done with all colored indicators forever Like you chalk it up to that and you’re like “white indicator - lucky”
Katie
For sure. even if you were to ask me, logically do fish really notice that there's a colored indicator and not eat your nymph that's like feet below that. I would say no, I don't actually think that they care about what's on the surface when they're eating at the bottom. But it's really hard to go back on a story that you experienced yourself. Even if it's just a placebo effect of, "I feel like this is going to work better because I'm not using a pink indicator, maybe I'll fish it better." They talk about having confidence in your fly, having confidence in the color of your indicator, it might make a difference.
Allen
I think that is 100% a thing. I believe in that completely. I will wear the same clothing or the same whatever. I will do everything. If I have a lights out day, I will try to repeat everything exactly the same. It doesn't always work, but in my mind, it's going to. You already start out in a more optimistic, confident way, but it's so hilarious to the crazy superstitious things that fishermen do. I think that's so funny about the indicator. And I would 100% do the exact same thing.
Katie
Well, next time your sons are out fishing you, instead of just setting up the same way, you should offer to switch rods and see if it helps.
Allen
It's so funny. My younger son was being stubborn on the trip. So he broke off and he was being, this was on the second river that we fished. He didn't do as well on that river. And that's where I got a little bit full of myself. And then I paid for it at the end, but he broke off and he was feeling kind of crabby and he You know, I've got a I've got all kinds of stuff here. What do you want? Let me just type, you know, just pick something out and tie it, you know Tie something else on and he's like no, I don't I don't want to I don't want I'm just being crab You want to be done fishing kind of? Said well here How about you just fish my rod and I'll hang on to your rod and that way you don't have to be done fishing So he started fishing my rod and while while I was holding his rod That's when I tied the streamer that he just went lights out on and I tied that on and I started fishing it and he's Like well, what are you doing? And I said, well, I don't want to just stand here and not fish I just put something on. And so that was my kind of like sneaky dad way of getting him back fishing again. And then it like totally backfired on me and I ended up giving him the lucky fly that went lights out on the next stop. But yeah, it's like, I don't know. It it's. There's so many funny, quirky, nuanced things. It, your, um, your indicator story though, actually reminded me of, um, so we were fishing with scientific anglers. again, we were fishing out with Landon Meyer out in, in Colorado. And we're fishing some pretty technical water, um, with some pretty spooky fish and they're fishing for the most part subsurface and he wouldn't, it would basically be what you'd call Indy fishing, but he wouldn't use an indicator. He would use like a size 14 or 16, like BWO, knowing that you're not going to hit, get a hit on the top fly, but that is literally what he was using as his indicator because the fish would spook at even like he had some tiny indicators and he just went he wouldn't even fish those he would use like this really tiny dry fly as an indicator just because of that that reason of spooking the fish and then they're catching stuff on I mean I couldn't even it was like size 22 or size 24 uh tiny little nymphs that um so I mean in some really technical circumstances it probably does affect it but i'm with you like does it really matter I don't know
Katie
Yeah, I feel like I assume I know roughly where you're talking about fishing with him. And from what I've heard, it might actually matter in a place like that. But where we were fishing, I would not expect it to matter. I wouldn't really call it a technical fishery. We went there, we went back there a couple months ago and just killed it on like any fly you're willing to throw. It's not the size 24 nymph or bust type of water. And in this way, I think it's just a confidence thing at this point. Most of the places I fish, I don't actually think the indicator color would matter. It's just, like you said, you catch a fish with your lucky hat on, you don't want to potentially make your odds worse by not wearing that hat. You know, I mean, you've got to put everything in your favor. And I mean, I do put some credence to the confidence fly thing. I mean, sometimes I'm matching the hatch. A lot of the time, I'm just picking a fly that when I cast it out, I'm like, "Fish love You know like I don't I don't know if these fish do but I in general I know fish love this fly and so I'm gonna be fishing it with confidence. I'm gonna fish it well And I think that that's I mean there's something to be said about if I think that I catch fish when I wear this shirt Then you know, I wear this shirt and I'm going out expecting to catch fish and it usually goes well
Allen
Yeah, 100% I could not agree more right some of my friends think I'm crazy and some of my friends know that I'm right so…
Katie
I mean there's people who don't say they don't believe in superstition but then I'm pretty sure if they had one of these experiences they'd probably be like well you know you don't want to stack the odds against yourself.
Allen
No and I mean I'll share one quick story and I don't mean to derail us on this. Oh no please do. So I had a buddy that we went fishing on the Pierre Marquette River, the river that's kind of my home water and we it was kind of like September-ish so we're getting some you know kind of that pre-spawn fall browns but we also are connected to the Great Lakes. So we get a salmon and steelhead run that come up into the river as well. We weren't chasing the salmon. We were really there chasing big brown trout, but we were streamer fishing. And he let me borrow his rod. And I was fishing and I was just, like I couldn't not catch fish with it. And I just had a day. And this river is like one of those really hot and cold rivers. Like you're either gonna have a day or you're gonna get blanked. There's not a lot of in between. There's not a lot of middle ground on this river. And I think it was just that the stars aligned and everything was kind of right that day. But I literally, and I'm not kidding, I went out and bought that rod, that reel, that line and those flies, like the next day. Because I was convinced that it was that, you know, it was, it had to be, it just like, you know, just like you switching rods with your friends. Like I was convinced that it was that setup that made that day be so successful. So I went and bought everything exactly the way he had it. And it didn't necessarily pan out, but I felt a little bit-- I gave myself an advantage. I never was able to replicate that day, but at least I always felt like I had the potential to.
Katie
Well, and I feel like you must have had this too. I mean, even maybe an example would be this trip with your sons. But there's days where-- me and my friends, I would consider most of us to be on relatively the same skill level. No one's blowing everyone else out of the water. but you go out and someone just has a really good day, you know? And it's, you might all be fishing the same thing, but someone's just, like we talked about earlier, just has that fishiness that day where they're just on fire and you might be doing the same thing, or so it seems, but, and you're just not, and then it'll switch the next time where maybe you're on fire and your friend just can't land a fish to save their life. And, you know, it just makes you wonder if there is some sort of factor that's outside the, you know, the realm of reality or science or something like that. You feel like it should be such a process of you just figure it out and then it And then you just see things that make you think there's got to be something deeper that we can't really sense but it's just there. And yeah I mean maybe that's that causes your sons to outfish you because it's just I mean that must be what it is that's the only reason they outfished you it's just they had something that day.
Allen
I don't know they have it a lot of days. They're both really fishy. They're both really fishy. There's very few days where I outfish them. So I wish like every now and then it would balance out and I did there was a and those suckers are fishy.
Katie
And there's just people like that too. I mean yeah people you just feel like you show up and you're like they're gonna out fish me like five to one and there's nothing I can do about it. It's just how it is.
Allen
Yep and you just go enjoy it with them.
Katie
Right. So um I guess getting back onto your trips in addition to this one do you have any others that stand out and maybe and you know since this one went it seems like it went pretty well like you kind of got what you wanted out of it both fish wise and just you know maybe spiritually if you will. Do you have any that have almost like on the opposite side of the spectrum where you had a bunch of mishaps or something just went wrong or you know you couldn't get anything to go right?
Allen
Yeah so I mean there's a couple that come to mind neither they're both back they were both backpacking trips but neither of them really involved fishing. They were kind of before I had incorporated the two together and I can share those if they're relevant. But yeah, so one was actually my very first, what I would call real backpacking trip. And that I went with a buddy of mine and my wife's cousin. So two buddies of mine. And we were gonna drive from Grand Rapids, Michigan out to Colorado, we were gonna hike in Rocky Mountain National Park, like this is our first out west, you know, we're gonna hike in the mountains kind of backpacking trip. And we didn't really know anything about anything. So we had backpacks, we had, you know, stoves and tent and sleeping bag. We kind of had the stuff we thought we needed. But I mean, I was like, we were wearing jeans. And we were, we just had stuff that wasn't quite, you know, it wasn't really appropriate for the situation. We also went in June, so there was a ton of snow. We drove out there, we drove out actually all the entire way in a Ford Ranger that had bucket seats and the guy that wanted to drive the entire time is like 5'7", 5'8" and my buddy Tyler and I are like 6'1", 6'2", but if wherever he needed the seat is where we had to be in the seat. So we're kind of like smushed in the front of this tiny ass Ford Ranger driving 24 hours out to Rocky Mountain National Park. We didn't know anything about getting acclimated, anything. We went and we got out of the truck, we went and had a huge breakfast and we motored up the hills. And, um, we didn't realize, oh, we're going to have, we're going to have snow to deal with and, oh, there's going to be a lot of lightning and possibly some crazy weather. And you need, you know, certain equipment to deal with that. But we got, uh, I mean, my one, one of my buddies ended up with really bad altitude sickness. Cause we just went, we just gained so much elevation so quickly that it messed his system up and we were in a tiny tent. So I always joke when if someone says it's a three person backpacking tent, that really means a two person tent unless you're really comfortable with the people you're with. And it rained and rained and rained and rained like it, it felt like it never stopped raining and then it would kind of get sunny for a little bit. But we're stuck inside this tent. My one buddy's sick, we're just kind of miserable, we decide we've kind of had it. And so we're going to actually hike out early. And we go to hike out and I'm wearing blue jeans, which is the dumbest possible thing you could wear back in like a cotton shirt. And we're hiking out, we're kind of right on the continental divide, and a really bad storm blows in. And so it's thunder, lightning, hail, and we're kind of like right in the, you know, we're above tree line, we're really exposed area, and we don't really have anywhere to get out of it. It's just like, you're just kind of in it. And, you know, we've got metal frame packs on, and one of my buddies has a fishing pole sticking out of it, and there's lightning coming down everywhere around us. The clouds were literally like, they almost felt like you could have reached up and touched them, they were that close. And every time it would thunder, it would shake your body. Like you just felt incredibly small and incredibly vulnerable at the time, which is in some ways a really cool feeling, but it sucked so bad. I mean, we were soaked, we were getting pelted by hail. My jeans got so wet and so heavy that they were like falling off of my body and just chafing my legs and everything was just miserable. And then we had to get in a car and drive home. And we had spent so much time in that stupid car and that rainy tent together that we are kind of sick of each other. Then we had to ride for 24 hours in a car back home, kind of sopping wet, ornery, and not in a good way. That was my first real backpacking trip and somehow that sparked a love of wanting to do it more and more. But when I look back at it, it was so damn miserable, but it was memorable. It was memorable, but it was miserable.
Katie
Yeah, I'm surprised that you still want to go after that.
Allen
Yeah, I don't know. maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment, but you know, there was, there was a lot of fun things about it too. We, you know, we, we wrote our pack. We had to get to the bottom of this basin to get to the cross country zone that we were supposed to be in. And, you know, you have to give kind of the park service, a general area, like we're going to be in this general area. And so we just hopped on our backpacks and slid probably a thousand vertical feet down a snow field. And we did some funny, ha ha stuff that you look back at now and think, man, and I was really stupid, but it was fun and we laugh about it. And maybe it's one of those things where you look back at it with a little bit of rose colored glasses and remember the good stuff and forget just how miserable and how much we hated each other. So that was one of them. Later in life, I decided I wanted to do a solo backpacking trip. So I'd always gone with a buddy or two or something like that. I wanted to do a solo trip and I went to Oregon and was hiking around Mount Jefferson. And I had kind of planned it all out and this whole thing. And it was in, I like to hike in September. It's one of my favorite times of year to be out. You know, the bugs are usually gone or less. The people are usually gone or less. It's not blazing hot. So you're not just, you know, sweating your guts out when you're hiking. So I just, I really like September. September, like, I mean, any month in the mountains, but September can be, you know, kind of one of those transitional months. So I backpacked in, started to get up into elevation and started snowing. And I started out at the bottom. I was in shorts and a t-shirt. It was warm. And as I got up into elevation, I had an idea of kind of where I needed to get for the night and there was kind of a Lake area I wanted to get to and set up camp. And it basically turned into a white out blizzard and I lost the trail. my compass stopped working. I had a GPS, so this is like how long ago it was, I had a compass, right? And I also had a GPS, this was before you had cell phones that had all these wonderful apps on them. So I had a GPS, the batteries were dead, so I had no way to understand what direction I was going. It was complete, it was like basically a complete whiteout, like blizzard, I don't know where I am, I don't know where, I can't even tell what is what. Like, I don't know what directions, what I don't, I can't see in front of me. So finally I kind of got to the point where I said, well, I just need to stop. Set up camp and just kind of hunker down. And, um, I realized how much it kind of sucks to camp by yourself. I mean, there's something cool about it, but like first I had to set up the tent by myself, like, okay, that's kind of a pain. Then I realized, well, I'm pretty low on water. I need to go back a mile to where the last water was that I saw was and try to find that and filter some water by myself. And then I have to go back to camp and I have to try to cook my food by myself. And then when I'm done with that, I have to put everything in the pack and try to hang the food to keep it away from bears and other wildlife myself. And you just realize like, man, you know, if I had someone else with me, I could have set that tent up really quick and I could have gone and filtered water where they were fixing dinner and then cleaning up and it's just, you know, there was just a lot, so I was like, man, this is, this is really tough. and I was kind of shook up, like that I didn't know where I was. The whole thing just kind of shook me. I finally got all that done, went to bed for the night, woke up and then I could hear, I was kind of a little bit under some pine trees and I could hear like big clumps of stuff falling on my tent all night. And I just like, I just tried to sleep. I was miserable, I was cold. I woke up in the morning and all the snow was still there, but the sky had kind of opened up and it was bright and brilliant. And I ended up being like actually really close to where I was trying to get to. There's a beautiful lake that I can see now, like off this way, right in front of me is Mount Jefferson, like in all its glory. And it was beautiful the next morning, but I hiked out. I was like, that was it. I'm good. I hiked out. I rented a condo on the beach and I stayed in a condo for three days. And I had the Oregon beach experience. Cause I was, it kind of shook me up. And I've never solo hiked since then. I mean, I know I could, I just don't, I didn't really love it. So those were two like kind of experiences that didn't go well. I had another one in New Hampshire. We were backpacking in the white mountains in New Hampshire. And I don't know if you've ever hiked in the East. I mean, you're from Pennsylvania. Have you been to like New Hampshire or any of those? Oh my goodness. I'll tell you like hiking in Montana or Wyoming or Colorado or any of those places has nothing on New Hampshire. That is no joke. They don't really have where we went. They didn't really have trails. They kind of have. You're kind of on granite the whole time. And so like, okay, here's a little trail and then you have to kind of go up like a 10 foot granite wall. Like you just have to go up it. That's how you, that's the direction you need to go. And it rained and it, there was a hurricane. This was in September again, a hurricane that had worked itself up to coast and kind of parked right over top of us. So it wasn't like pouring, but it was just never ending wetness. Like you couldn't escape being wet. You were just wet all the time and trying to climb up the granite or go on some of these things with being soaking wet. They were so slippery. It was so hard. It was, that was probably the hardest backpacking experience in my life, which I, which totally surprised me. Cause I'm like, Oh, what are the, you know, mountains out East, whatever. These are baby mountains. They were, they were tough. They were really tough.
Katie
Yeah, I've heard that about the eastern mountains, particularly the northeastern. I don't know what all states it covers, but there's still treeline. There's still ways to get above-- and Mount Washington has the highest recorded wind speed. And I guess the only thing that we have on them in terms of difficulty is that we don't have oxygen, as much oxygen up there. So you can get the altitude sickness and barely be able to breathe, which that's when when the mountain is like 5,000 feet off sea level I mean that's what we are at Denver so you're not experiencing that but I've heard just the exposure and the weather that out there can be just as bad if not worse than here
Allen
yeah and that's and it was we were doing the presidential range so that that summit that I was talking about was Mount Mount Washington which does get in crazy insane kind of weather but what was really disappointing about Mount Washington is we put in incredible hard grueling work to summit it and then we get to the top and there's like a little restaurant and a tourist shop and a little train that comes to the top and I'm like are you freaking kidding me like we did all this work to get to the top and there's like a little restaurant I was so disappointed like yeah it just took all the wind out of my sails right there
Katie
yeah we've got some of those here on some of the 14ers too like Pikes Peak. Pikes Peak is known as being one of the harder hikes, but you could also take a train to the top.
Allen
Yeah, once I got there and saw what it was, I'm like, "I should have just taken the train." I was so disappointed. But yeah, those are three that stand out as being a little bit miserable, especially weather-wise. But there's always parts of those that you remember finally, but it's usually in hindsight.
Katie
Yeah, I would agree. I almost wouldn't want all of my trips to go perfectly as planned. And with minor mishaps it can just be fun even in the moment, but with stuff like that, yeah, it's usually like at the time you really wish it didn't happen, but as long as you live to tell the tale then it becomes kind of a fun story after the fact. But it's not like you really want to make more of those if it means, you know, ruining your trip.
Allen
Yeah, exactly. Like they're fun stories and you have good memories with the people that you were with if you were with other people and you can kind of laugh and joke about it in hindsight, but at the time it can be pretty miserable.
Katie
Absolutely. Well, Allen, where can people find you if they want to come visit your blog or if they want to shoot you an email or something? Where can people reach out?
Allen
Sure, so I'm on Instagram at Allen Outside. My website is alanoutside.com and that's where I have a lot of stories. I do talk about a lot of the other trips that we didn't have time to get to. So, you know, there's trips in Wyoming to the Wind River Range. There's a couple of those in there. There's trips to the Sawtooths in there. I don't remember. There's some Canada backcountry pike fishing in there. I don't remember. There's several mixed in there if you dig a little bit. And there's a few tips in there too. I know you're kind of big on that on your site as well in terms of, "Hey, here's what you should pack," or, "Here's some things to plan for." We've got some of that information on the site too. But yeah, that's probably the best place to kind of check stuff out and read maybe some of the other stories or get some tips.
Katie
Yeah it sounds like with I feel like what people when people first get started with backcountry fishing if they're staying overnight it can be a little daunting so I think having some resources like that for people who have done it and been like hey I've tried this this worked this didn't can be can be really helpful so I'm sure people would be able to check that out and get some resources there.
Allen
Yeah absolutely.
Katie
All right well um thanks so much for coming on this is a lot of fun and you know it's good to hear that someone else's you know, had the good times and the bad and maybe had a little superstition along the way.
Allen
Yeah, I 100% believe in superstition and yeah, you know, the good times or the bad times maybe make the good times that much sweeter and I love, I loved your, I love the indicator story that's so hilarious and it hits home so true.
Katie
Yep, well I appreciate it and I'm sure we'll talk again soon. All right, sounds good, thank you. All right guys, thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.
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