Ep 54: Wet Flies and Cutthroats, with Heidi Lewis
Heidi Lewis is an avid angler and founder of Utah Women Flyfishers. She fishes nearly every week year-round, has completed the Utah Cutthroat Slam several times over, and is passionate about swinging wet flies. In this episode, she tells me about her introduction to fly fishing, a few stories about completing both the Utah and Wyoming Cutthroat Slams, and her preferred techniques for fishing wet flies and streamers.
Instagram: @heidiaqua
Email: heidiaqua@gmail.com
-
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 54 with Heidi lewis on wet flies and cutthroats. I usually just start with getting a little background so if you just want to tell me how'd you get your start in the outdoors and especially fishing?
Heidi
So I fished my entire life there I mean since I was two years old there's a picture of me cutting up a worm on a dock in Wisconsin and my dad got a stick and some you know line off of it And I'm out there catching bluegills off the, off the dock. And like, I don't know if it's from the picture, but I feel like I remember that day. I remember cutting the worms on the little box and everything. And, you know, I grew up kind of around it because my dad was a charter fisherman on Lake Michigan in the summers. Um, and so probably like most guides or charter fishermen, you know, it's work. So we didn't get to go out a ton and fish, which, you know, it's kind of a bummer because I think that maybe could have really changed my life. But I don't know, you know, if I would have been ready for it necessarily.
Katie
You mean going out like on the boat with him?
Heidi
Yeah, we went out a couple of times. And I remember fishing in Lake Michigan with down riggers for, you know, they got there for big salmon and big trout. And I remember reeling in until I couldn't reel anymore. This like 30 pound brown trout, like the lake Michigan, you know, it was so cool. I can't remember how old I was, but you know, those moments were kind of few and far between. So I always liked fishing, but I didn't, I didn't always get to do it. Um, and I think because for him, it was a job, you know, it is in the summer and like, he didn't want to go out and he didn't have to. Right. I think like, like a lot of guides, you know, kind of get burnt out in that way. So, but I didn't start fly fishing till 2012.
Katie
Oh, that's the same year I started.
Heidi
Okay. Awesome. That was a good year. It's a great year. Yeah. So before that, I would go out, you know, with my husband. He already knew how to fly fish sort of. And I would be like, I'm fishing with worms because that's how you catch fish. You know, I was just like into, you know, that's how you start bait or lures. Right. So I started doing that. I'm like, yeah, this is really easy. Like, you know, it'd be nice to have a challenge. And then I went to an F3T show with him here in Salt Lake and I'm watching the videos that year. It was 2012 in February. And I don't even remember what I watched at this point. I should go back and watch it. But I was like, this looks cool. This looks fun. I want to do this. And so like that night I went on to my local fly shop, which is right on the street. I went on to their website because I've seen them casting out front before. And so I knew they were just kind of around. And I was just looking up classes, you know, see what they had to offer. I really had no idea like how to get into it. And there was a women's class offered. And so I called them the next day and I said, Hey, you know, do you have any spots left? And it was like a couple months later, It was in April. And they're like, yeah, we have one spot left. Like, sign me up. Let's do this. And yeah. And that was with Molly Semenik, who is now she well, even then she was a certified casting instructor and she lives and she lived in Montana and she would come down and support the shop with the women's class. Now she's in Washington. I think she's in the Seattle area. but so I learned from her and one of the guys that worked there and kind of the rest is history.
Katie
Do you ever go back to to conventional gear or you all fly at this point?
Heidi
I am all fly at this point I went in head first I mean if we take the girls out on the boat you know and you know the 13 year olds rowing you know my husband will be the spinning rod but I'll keep casting the fly I like the fly I mean been there done that I I just it's just not for me anymore but I'm like I get worms for the girls you know because that's how you catch fish and you have to be engaged somehow
Katie
yeah I think for kids getting them on fish is a lot more important than like trying to force a certain technique on them just you know keep them engaged getting bites and that'll keep them coming back for more
Heidi
and fly fishing is hard oh my gosh and to throw a kid in the mix with it like with line management and casting so I've done dry land casting with them at the park and stuff. And they're actually really good casters, but they don't have the patience for it. They're like, we're not catching anything. I'm like, well, I'm not either. But that's just part of it. And so it's, yeah. And I'm not a guide. So I, you know, I, I'm not a guide. Let's just leave it at that.
Katie
Yeah. The hard part with kids too, is like, even if they get the cast down, like that's only the beginning, you know, you still have to get a good drift. You still have to set the hook. And I've met a lot of kids who can get the cast down, but it's, you know, once the flies in the water, they start to struggle a little bit. And I'm not sure if if there's something there that just kind of trips kids up, but it seems like they can get casting down before they are able to get the concept of like a dead drift and the hook set and fighting the fish. That seems to, I think, catch on a little bit later.
Heidi
Well, and I don't think that's just real, just for kids or just, you know, you know, that's like, I think anybody getting into fly fishing, that's kind of the transition is learning how to do all those things. But I didn't grow up like camping. I didn't grow up doing a whole lot outside. I was into sports as a kid, just riding bikes with friends, playing kick the can, you know, that sort of stuff. Like just being a kid, we didn't do much like as far as camping goes. And then I moved out here and I had a boyfriend that took me down to Moab for the first time, probably the first time I really slept in a tent. And I was like, oh, this is super fun. This is awesome. I woke up, I remember that night and the moon was full blown, huge, bright and Moab, you know, you're just like, you're not around a lot out there. And it was shining in the tent. I'm like, what is that? Like, what is a spotlight on their car? So like naive. And I look outside, I, it was the moon and like that, that camping trip, you know, will forever stay in my mind. So, I mean, now we go camping all the time. And I just like, I crave to be outside and I crave to hear the water and be in the middle of the trees and just all that stuff, you know, all of it.
Katie
You know, it makes you wonder with people who really get involved in the outdoors, how much of it depends on how good that first experience is. Like you said, you went camping and I feel like Moab is a great place to, you know, have your first camping experience. Everything's beautiful. If you haven't been to the desert before, it's just like awe-inspiring. And it sounds like you had a great trip and it stuck. But, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who it would catch on for if they had an experience like that. But maybe the first time they went, it was, you know, there's mosquitoes everywhere and it rained the whole time. And I feel like there's probably people out there who've just been set on a completely different path because the first time they experienced the outdoors, it didn't go well.
Heidi
Yeah. And if you don't grow up with it, you know, it kind of depends who you meet later in life. Maybe that gets you out there. Because I'm not the type of person to do those things by myself. I don't have any desire to travel alone. I've never camped by myself. So, you know, it took somebody else to introduce me to that. So, yeah, I'm grateful for that experience. So now as a family and my husband now, he grew up, he was a Boy Scout. You know, he grew up in upstate New York. He was in the woods all the time. He was an Eagle Scout. So, like, we get into a lot of adventures with that guy. So it's pretty fun. And the girls have been exposed to a lot.
Katie
You know, I wanted to ask, because you mentioned that you kind of got introduced to fly fishing through the film tour, which I haven't heard that as an entrance to fly fishing before. What was it like watching people do it? How familiar were you with what fly fishing is? Because I feel like if I had seen that for the first time, having no experience with it, I would be a little confused about what's going on. And I'm just curious, when you were watching it, what was going through your mind in terms of what you were seeing? Yeah, so actually my husband was an angler already at that point.
Heidi
But I never had gone out with him. And I had a young, I had two young children. So the timing was part of it too. So I had at the, when I picked up fly fishing, I had a two and a half year old, almost three year old, and then a five year old, I think it would have been, or four or something, you know, four year old. So, you know, I was a stay at home mom. I was just, I was mom and kids all the time. So he would go out and I knew he did it, but I, he would never, I don't ever remember hearing him like, Oh, I caught a bunch of fish or, you know, like I didn't hear too much about the experience. And then he'd gone, I watched him a few times and we'd go up in the mountains and like take the kids and I would see him casting and, but he never caught anything. So I was like, Oh, I don't even know if this works. It's like, I didn't know much about it. I was like, you have to buy boots and you have to buy weight. I'm like, how much money are you spending? Like, what else do you need to buy for this sport? I remember thinking that like, holy hell, like what else do you need? I mean, that's a, that's definitely a valid thought. I had no idea. Like, I'm like, you need special boots? Like, what is that? And now I have like three pair for myself, you know?
Katie
I mean, it's still easy to look and just be like, do I really need this, all this stuff? And then understand what he was doing.
Heidi
Right. So you were kind of familiar with, you know, you didn't know how to do it, but you're familiar. Yeah, I knew of it. And I'd seen him. And so he brought me to that show with like his buddies. And just seeing like the stoke on the screen of what these people were doing. I was like, that looks really fun. And, you know, and again, like I had always liked fishing. I felt like at the time in my life, I needed some time out of the house and I needed an activity that didn't involve like just going to the mall or doing, you know, like I'm just not that type of person. Like I just needed something to do where I could just go and do it. And it just kind of like fell into place. Like, I don't know how else to explain it. And The timing was right. The class was there. I caught fish during that class. I caught two fish on my first day of fly fishing. And really since that day, I don't think I've missed more than two weeks in between fly fishing. I go, I go every week. I like, I make a point at least to go one day a week. And so if I go like a weekend trip, maybe I'll skip a week or something, but I really like, it's like going to exercise. It's going to, it's like going out for a walk. It's like a habit. It's a habit. So since 2012, I have fished at least once a week, if not more.
Katie
I don't think I've spoken to many people who aren't guides who fish that often. I feel like I fish more than the average person, but I can easily go a month or two without fishing if other things come up or whatever. And then I might go a whole bunch in a row or I might go for like a week at that point. But yeah, I don't meet a lot of people who can go that consistently. That's pretty impressive.
Heidi
If I skip a couple of weeks, I'm like, I feel anxious. I get a little depressed. I like, I fish all year long. I have fish every season. I fish in the snow. Like, I think if I had me maybe other hobbies that I was that into, I could skip some more time. But I mean, there are other things I like to do, but that really takes precedent on like any other thing I want to do. So I dove in like that, where I remember my first year of fishing and the fly, I have like a local fly shop called Western Rivers Fly Fisher that they're like my people. So I took every class they had to offer after that women's class with the same instructor with Nick. And I just like soaked it all up. Like, tell me more, like ask questions. Like, how do I do this? I'd go into the fly shop after I went fishing, be like, hey, I saw this and I saw this and I couldn't catch a fish. Like, why didn't I catch a fish? Like I use this fly, like, tell me what I did. And I just like went in there and I would just like nail them with questions. And they just, they just would sit and like chat with me. They were awesome. Like that fly shop, I think too, if it wasn't for them, you know, where would I be? Like they were a huge support system in the journey and they still are.
Katie
I mean, that's kind of the whole thing behind supporting your local fly shops. You're like, you're not going to get that kind of support from going to like a big box store or ordering your stuff on Amazon. Like that is what I feel like the fly shop, that's the niche the fly shop fills. You can get your gear from anywhere. I mean, it's the knowledge and the people that you meet there that really makes it what it is.
Heidi
Yeah, and I always felt welcomed. I know some women don't always get that treatment, but I've been lucky where I've never felt unwelcomed in a fly shop. And maybe I'm oblivious Cause I'm just so like, I'm just fishing all day. You know, I'm like, whatever. I don't know what they said. I don't even notice. I don't even notice. I just want to talk about fishing, you know? So I would just, you know, I just dove into conversations with them. But, you know, they were, they were just really welcoming and close to home. And so easy place to spend money. Really kind of like in a, in a funny way, like kind of bad. They were so close to home. Here's my paycheck.
Katie
It's like stopping at the grocery store on the way home.
Heidi
Stop at the grocery store on the way home. Like, oh, let's get some more flies. I'll get some, you know, a new fly line, whatever. So I spent a lot of time there just picking their brains and just chatting and trying to figure out what I was doing right and what I was doing wrong. And they entertained it.
Katie
Now, what's the fishing like around Salt Lake? Because I remember when I was there, you know, the city was in between. It was kind of in like a basin. And we went up into the mountains. And there were, you know, streams as you drove up the canyon. There were streams. I don't feel like I got the full picture of like what all is available around Salt Lake.
Heidi
So I would say the best fishing is 45 minutes and beyond. You know, there's a few small streams that come out of the canyons that you can fish in the summer and they hold fish. So those are fun. They're like fun, small streams where, you know, I started fishing. also, you know, it's tight spaces where I learned a lot of small stream techniques and I knew I would, you know, lose five to 10 flies. And that was the price I paid for the day for fishing, you know, before I learned about the bow and arrow cast, I would just chuck my fly into the water and I went in the fly shop and I'm like, yeah, I'm just throwing my fly. They're like, oh, you should learn this cast. I was like, I had never heard of this. Like another example of like going in there and just chatting about your day, you know? So yeah, we have some small streams around and then up towards park city and beyond is kind of where you know a lot of our tailwaters and blue ribbon fisheries happen and then yeah yeah southern Utah or south of in the state are some blue ribbons we have a lot of tailwaters we don't have a lot of spring fed streams most of our rivers are dammed there's a few that are freestone completely but kind of few and far between at this point so yeah you can go an hour and a half, two hours and have great fishing too. So, I mean, pretty accessible, you know, you can do it in a day stretch or a day trip. Um, but we really only have one kind of floatable river, which is the green river. Um, that's East of Salt Lake. It's about three and a half hours. We were just there last weekend. So yeah, only one, you know, drift boat floating
Katie
ΩNow I saw you mentioned, before we got on that, like you were interested in talking about, how you find places to fish? Like, do you have a lot of areas that you can just kind of go explore and find small water to fish? Or are you kind of generally hitting the same spots, like the same larger spots over and over again?
Heidi
So I, you know, I have some, where I learned how to fish on the Provo is 45 minutes away. And so that's a river I'm comfortable, always going alone. I know it for every season. I know it in high water. I know it in low water. I know where to cross. So that's a place that I can always go and be comfortable. And so I think everybody should have a river like that, where, you know, like the back of your head, where if the flows change, you're like, well, I know I can cross there because I know what the bottom is like, because I was there in low water and I could see it. So a huge skill, I think is important to have. But beyond that, this book, which every state has one, it's called Fly Fisher's Guide to, you know, whatever state, this is like the fly fishing Bible. Right. So I would go, I'd kind of look through this and just look through books and then get on my Google map and like pin places. And then I'd go to the USGS and look at stream flows. Um, and I'd maybe look at the year before and change the date. So that's part of like trying to find where to go is paying attention to the flows and what time of year you're going, reading books, just exploring like, Oh, this place looks good at, you know, if we're passing by, if we're going to Moab, I'll take, I'll go off on a tangent and check this place out. Your local fly shop, you know, could possibly share some of those places with you that, you know, you don't want to post online, but verbally, and you have trust with people they'll share. I had some friends that took me to some really awesome places when I first started I'm very grateful for that shared that so you know the community finding your community too you can find places to fish but I really like looking in the book looking at maps you know I have these late night sessions of like same yeah reading the book looking at the map or like reading my my fly chart book like when I first started the hatch guide for western streams like this thing like that's it's on the back of my toilet yeah next to my bed and like I remember having dreams about like giant hatches you know like watch out what you read before you
Katie
nightmare nightmares of like swarms of stone flies
Heidi
you know like I remember these dreams like so like yeah just and learning the stream flows I love like looking at stream flows and then I'll look back at you know how was there last year what what is it like this year And so that's kind of part of figuring out where to go is like doing that research. Yeah. So what are you looking for?
Katie
Like when you are trying to find a spot, are you really focusing on like species that you want to catch? Or is there a specific type of water that you really like to fish? Because like I know when I'm looking for stuff, you know, I'd rather fish a small creek for native cutthroats than I would a stocked lake for rainbow trout. You know, like there's there's just some things that appeal to me more. Is there something that when you're looking, you're like, oh, that sounds really, really fun to fish or like, eh, I'll pass on that because it's just not really my style.
Heidi
Good question. I'm not a big still water angler, but they're important to know when the flows are high. So it depends on the time of year. For one, if I can get up there, what the elevation is in the area. I don't really always target fish unless, you know, we have the Utah cut slam. So if I'm, if I'm working on the slam, I definitely go for cutties and stuff like that. So mostly it's more of like location. Where am I going? Am I going to be near somewhere, you know, kind of keeping a location in the back of my mind that if I ever go to that area, I kind of know it like, oh, I've heard of that river down there. So if we ever go camping in that area, you know, I know that there's fish in there. You can look at stocking reports, you know, with your state and see a lot of our, a lot of our waters are stocked here in the state, but they'll tell you what's in them. So I don't, I'm not really like species specific other than like trout mostly, you know, I do like to fish for bass, but I don't really do that so much in Utah. But it's, yeah, I mean, it depends what I'm doing. Like if we're going on a camping trip with the family, I'll have a location of like, hey, let's go check out this spot because I heard, you know, I've read that there are like big, good sized fish in there. So I like, I would prefer bigger fish and less of them than a lot of little fish that are stocked. But if they're like native cutties, I mean, that's awesome. Like I love native fish.
Katie
Tell me more about the Utah cut slam. I haven't heard of it.
Heidi
Oh, okay. Yeah. So the goal is to catch four of our native cutthroat species in their native ranges. So they're native drainages. So it's the Bonneville cutthroat, the Colorado cutthroat, the Yellowstone and the Bear River. And so TU and the DNR put together this program and you can go online and look it up and it'll tell you areas of the state where the drainages are, what species you're targeting. And so it's really fun. You can go all throughout the state and catch the species.
Katie
Is it like an organized event or is it just in your own time? You just try to get them all under your belt.
Heidi
It's in your own time. There's no end. You can, you have to sign up for it before you go and catch them. And then you have an unlimited amount of time. So it's 20 bucks to sign up and $19 goes to conservation. It's a pretty awesome program. So I think they've already raised, gosh, I don't quote me on this, but $50,000, $100,000. I mean, it's, it's like a big program. Serious chunk of change, yeah. Serious chunk of change to do restoration for these streams where native fish live. So it's an awesome program. So like I finished mine with some friends that came in from out of state, mostly in northern Utah. But you can go to southern Utah, eastern. I mean, there's all – you can – and I signed up for it again to do in like different areas of the state.
Katie
Yeah, like complete it from different rivers or something like that. Yeah, different rivers, yeah.
Heidi
But it's all about where these rivers drain to and that designates the cutthroat that's in that area. Because they have to be in the native drainages. So like the Yellowstone is just in like a little corner of Utah.
Katie
Is that like the northeastern corner? I would assume.
Heidi
Northwestern corner.
Katie
Northwestern corner?
Heidi
Yellowstone. Yeah, it's in the northwestern corner.
Katie
Okay. I would have guessed that was up closer to Wyoming. Yeah, that way.
Heidi
Uh-uh. Not the Yellowstone. Huh. Okay. And I can't explain that right now. have to, I'm like, why, yeah, why is that? But it is for a reason.
Katie
Have you thought about doing the, I don't know what the actual challenge is called, but the Western Native Trout Initiatives version of this, where you go try to catch like however many native trout across the West. And I think, I think there are maybe different tiers where if you catch, you know, I'm just throwing out numbers here, let's say 10, you get like the first level. And then if you get 15, it's the next level. And I could totally be messing this up because I haven't done it, but it sounds similar, but it's all across the West instead of just in Utah. Have you heard of what I'm talking about?
Heidi
I've heard of it, but I don't know if Utah is a part of that program. I think it's California. And I don't know too much about it, but Wyoming has a cut slam. I do know that. And I did do that one on accident. Oh, on accident. Tell me more. I wrote an article about this. I think the beginning of the year with TU. Um, and well, I heard about it. And so there's a certain area in Wyoming where you can get like three out of the four and it's not a paid program. Like the Utah one is you just, if you do it, you just record it and then send in your information and you get a really cool, like, certification and like this, like, what is it like a pin or quite, I can't remember what it is. Um, so I, I had gotten the three in a certain area where camping one weekend and I realized, so I came back, I'm like, Oh, there's like, we fished like three different drainages. This is cool. And then last year we took the family to Yellowstone and I was, and like, I had never fished in the park and I'd only been in there a couple of times. So I was just like, so excited just to like be in the park again and like have a chance to fish. And when I got back from that, I was like, Oh shoot, I caught my fourth cutthroat, which was the Yellowstone cutthroat in Yellowstone. And I'm like, I just finished the slam. Like I just put it all together and it took me a minute, but I was so like enthralled with being in the Yellowstone and, and being in the Lamar Valley and just like, it's just amazing. Um, that I didn't even really realize I finished the slam until I came back.
Katie
So were you aware of it that when you got the first three, like, were you trying, were you trying for it with the first three?
Heidi
I wasn't trying. Cause we were just on like a camping trip and we like this area of like fishing and camping. So, yeah, I was like, I went into it like, oh, I think, you know, I could do, I could get three of them here. And I researched it. Oh, yeah, I can get three of them here. And then I just kind of like let it go because I'm like, the Yellowstone Cutthroat is way further north. You know, we don't usually go that far. And then we found ourselves in Yellowstone last summer. So, and I had forgotten about it, really.
Katie
That's fun. I should see if Colorado has something similar. I haven't heard of anything. We have like tournaments and stuff where it's like catch the most species in an amount of time and you get like teams and you have to go out. But it's not all trout. You know, trout is a small portion of it. But yeah, I'll just see if we have anything similar because we have several subspecies here. Although I'm not sure if it's maybe not as clear cut as what you have there. Because for us, we've had kind of like muddy waters over the years with they thought the state fish, the greenback, was extinct for a while. And they thought it was back. And then they found out that it wasn't pure. So then they thought maybe it was extinct again. Then they found the pure strain. So I feel like there's been a lot of back and forth in Colorado. So I'm not sure where that stands these days. But I'll have to check that out and see if there's anything like that.
Heidi
I don't know if they do genetic testing in Utah. A lot of the times it's hard to tell what species you're catching.
Katie
Yeah. I was actually going to ask you about that. But then you mentioned that they give you kind of resources of like where to go to catch each one. And that's always what I've relied on, too, is like I know what's supposed to be in here. So I'm going to go ahead and trust that this is a fill in the blank cutthroat. But I cannot tell the difference between them.
Heidi
Yeah, I mean, some of them you can, but like the Bear River and the Bonneville, they look identical. It's really all about their drainages and where they are, which makes them genetically unique. But they look very similar. You can't tell. I mean, the Yellowstone.
Katie
I was just saying, can you tell the difference between the Yellowstone? Because that's the only one I've caught that seemed a little bit unique.
Heidi
Not so much in Utah. The Colorado for sure, because that's that really red underbelly. I mean, they're like this. They're like in these little streams you could jump across and they're tiny. So like they just look like a pard mark marked cutthroat. Like you can't they're not like big and like spotted like you'd find, you know, in Wyoming or, you know.
Katie
That's interesting that you say that because I had a different experience with Yellowstone cutthroats. Like the ones I caught were very fat and chunky and very silvery. And that's how I was like, oh, this looks different from all the other ones. But I wonder if they're different like where you are.
Heidi
Yeah, it's probably where we are and what they live in. Because these streams, like they suggest that you call the area, call the DNR, like the ranger up there, whatever, and see if there's water in the creek where you want to go fishing. Like they're really small streams that they don't have, they can't get really big, you know, and maybe look a whole lot different.
Katie
I don't know. And the ones I caught were in a deep lake. So I wonder if that's maybe what's causing the difference.
Heidi
Yeah. I mean, they definitely changed their look on what they can eat and where they live. Sure. Just the brow pervert was different in that case too, you know. Yeah.
Katie
The only thing I feel like I've caught other subs pieces of cutthroats in similar environments. And they have generally looked fairly similar to how I've seen them in creeks, but just larger. And these ones, the yellowstones that I caught were silvery. They just had a different look to them too. But that's really cool to hear that the location matters so much for how they look.
Heidi
Yeah, I think they can. Yeah, just like brown trout. Some look more orange and some look darker. I've even caught some brown trout that were almost black.
Katie
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Depending on what they're eating and where they're living. Yeah. Yep. So I saw that you mentioned, kind of shifting gears here. I saw that you mentioned that you really like swinging wet flies and that's like most of what you do these days. Um, how'd you get into that specific area of fly fishing?
Heidi
Um, so the first experience with that was, one of the classes I took in the first year and a half of, fly fishing and I just a class, like I was, like I said, I was signing up for all the classes, just trying to get all of the knowledge I could. And learning that and the technique and how it felt to catch a fish doing that, I was like, this is like life changing. Like, this is so cool. I mean, I love fishing dry flies. I don't really love nymphing so much. I mean, it catches fish, but it's not as dynamic as, you know, watching a fish come up or swinging a fly. It's very effective. But, you know, swinging that fly and all of a sudden, like feeling a jolt in the fish there, it was like, like a lightning strike out of nowhere. I mean, it was like, it's like, it's I like gambling to like playing blackjack and cards. It's like you won and you didn't even know you're gonna win. You know, it's kind of like immediate dopamine hit. Oh, totally. Like straight to the, to the vein, you know? Um, and that's like what it felt like. It was, it was really funny as it, as it is, it was kind of life changing. Um, and so I, I just got into it from there. Like, this is really effective. You know, you can do it in the wind. You can do it in really any type of water. You can use these flies in still water. Also, you're always in contact with the fly. it just, it's just exciting to catch a fish that way, in my opinion. And then, so I got into tying them because, you know, there are certain flies I was using. And then I just, you know, you get on a Facebook group and you get on YouTube and you just go down the rabbit hole and they're fun to tie. They're pretty easy. Um, and I just found that they were just like really effective and really, dynamic to fish that way. Just, you can move a lot and yeah, it's just fun.
Katie
Do you like swinging streamers as well or are you pretty set on the wet flies?
Heidi
Yeah, so I call it the gateway drug to streamer fishing. That hit when the fish eats is the joy of streamer fishing. So that definitely turned into streamer fishing from there. And so I do like that certain times of the year. Absolutely. I love streamer fishing. But do you prefer wet flies? Depends on the time of the year and where I'm at. you know it's really similar because I fish streamers like if I'm not on a boat and I'm wade fishing I fish streamers really similar to to wet fly fishing
Katie
so you're more tied to the technique and you'll use then whatever's kind of the appropriate tool for the job at that at that moment
Heidi
yeah because you can fish streamers upstream and jig them down you can fish wet flies upstream and bring them down under the surface of the water you can strip wet flies you can strip streamers you can cast them down and across and let them swing down same with streamers you know like a lot of the technique is similar basically just more more interactive than dry flies and and nymphing
Katie
I know what you mean about nymphing you know sometimes it's the right right tool for the job but it can be kind of boring whereas a dry fly you get to have the excitement of watching it eat but at the end of the day both are just cast it out and hope that it moves exactly at the speed of the current you're not really doing a whole lot apart from maybe mending so yeah I can see if you like that more action action-packed interactive experience that you'd gravitate more toward wet flies and streamers since they're kind of on the other end of the spectrum in terms of just how much you're able to manipulate the fly as it's coming down.
Heidi
Yeah, you can change the speed. The cool thing about, you know, the wet flies is they always look correct in the water because they're symmetrical. There's no top or bottom. Yeah, just like a big grass skirt of feathers. Yeah, feathers. So, you know, you don't have to have the perfect presentation always. You to be have the perfect cast like I said it's great when it's windy so it's they're so versatile and I think you're really engaged too in like the bugs that are hatching just like dry fly fishing or like you know what's emerging what what's under the water like it's you just you have to be a part of the system and learn it to know what to fish I yeah so it's just been something that stayed with me since I learned.
Katie
Are you, when you're fishing wet flies, are you still trying to like quote unquote match the hatch the same way? Because I feel like wet flies don't necessarily look as exact as an imitation as something like a dry fly or a nymph that sometimes look exactly like what you're trying to imitate. But I feel like wet flies are a little bit more abstract, but I'm sure there's still, you know, you can match colors and things like that. How, how, how much into account are you taking like what's in the water? Are you just kind of picking what feels right at the time?
Heidi
It's important what's in the water. It, I mean, there are definitely are some nymphs that you look at it and you're like, well, what is that? And you're like, well, that could be, you know, a mayfly. It could be a midge. It could be a can. It's like, it could be any things. I think wet flies are a little different than that. I think they're even more specific. Actually they can be, I mean, you can dive into, to making them really specific. So for me, when I'm tying and when I'm fishing them, the color sometimes is important, but it's more of the size and the profile that is the ultimate importance. So, like you can tie wet flies for stone flies also. And so in that case, when there's stone flies around, like I know what wet fly, I want to drop below a dry fly right next to the bank. And it's one that, you know, is similar to a stone fly, which, you know, I may not use a pheasant tail soft tackle if like that I would use for caddis and maybe I'll swing that later in the evening but I think it can be specific with colors and with like shape and size for sure but you could oh it's so hard because you can also get some that are kind of generic
Katie
um what's your preferred because like I like flies that are a little bit more like I would always rather choose a pheasant tail or a hares ear nymph or something like something that can be lots of things. And I know other people really prefer matching that exact insect. Like for this waterway, they're going to pick the one fly that was tied specifically for this. Like what do you prefer kind of covering all your bases with one pattern that can be a whole bunch of different things? Or would you rather try to really mimic one thing?
Heidi
That's a good question. I'm thinking about like what my fly box looks like and how I, when I fish the seasons, like my go-to flies and they're very seasoned bug specific. You can size things up and down, of course, with the same pattern. Um, but I do have favorite patterns for specific bugs. Like I have a favorite bluing pattern. I have a favorite midge pattern for sure. Um, caddis, there's a lot of varieties in that. so I have a tendency to to be closer in line with the bug that's around with my soft hackles that I'm fishing
Katie
that's interesting I don't have a lot of experience with soft hackles I've tied some and I've occasionally like drifted some but I haven't done I haven't dedicated any time to just I keep telling myself I'm going to like this summer I'm only fishing wet flies then I just don't because I'm like, yeah, I know how to do other things. But in my mind, I think it's, I don't know enough about it to really know how deep it goes. Because in my mind, I'm like, oh, there's wet flies and you swing them. And the more I talk to people who do it, the more I'm like, this is a whole world that I just don't even know what I don't know.
Heidi
Just get on YouTube and Google Davey McPhail. He's an Irishman. And he's an incredible tire, very soothing voice. And you can, you can go in deep there with his stuff. So I feel like, yeah, I'm, I'm probably pretty specific with what's hatching, what I'm fishing and the time of year. So yeah, I think I am, I think I am more on the specific side.
Katie
So you're switching things up pretty, pretty regularly to mimic whatever's going on.
Heidi
Yeah, for sure. Just like you would probably a dry fly, you know, more than a nymph.
Katie
Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Apart from maybe like a Parachute Atoms, which I feel like works basically year-round for me, or like maybe a Griffith's Nat, just because midges hatched year-round. But anything more specific than that, I feel like you've got to really know what... And I've even had fish where you put on like one PMD pattern and it doesn't want it, and then you change it to a different PMD pattern and it does, where they'll get down to the very specific pattern. But nymphs, I feel like you're right. It's more like you can throw on a handful of tried-and-true patterns something will take it.
Heidi
But the cool thing about that made me think about fishing wet flies is because you can fish them when nothing's rising. You can fish them when they're eating emergers and you can fish them when they're eating duns. So you can put floating on some of these, you know, you can use a, you know, really gentle sinking line to fish some of them. I can move fish with wet flies when there are no fish rising and they'll turn. I can see them under the water, Go for it. Like they'll come up under the water. Like they'll launch out of the water. Some of the patterns I have. Little streamer patterns that are wet fly patterns. And you're like, there are no fish moving. And then I'll get fish that just like launch out of the water for those flies. It is so exciting that they really agitate and like, you know, excite the fish to eat it. They're so, because they're, they're, they have so much movement in them and they look real and they're pulsing and they're, you know.
Katie
Well, it's moving. So I feel like they, they have this, probably this thing in their mind where they're like, it's now or never. Like I have to chase it. Yeah, it's like a dog chasing a ball. Yeah. How do they do that? It's instinct, right. Well, there's something wrong with my dog because she doesn't go for the balls as much. So she's broke. But I'm sure there's fish like that too that just don't want to play.
Heidi
Yeah, but why does a dog chase a ball? I don't know. Why does a fish, maybe a predatorial instinct, but why does a fish chase a fly moving in the water? It's instinct. It's predatorial. Like, you want to eat it. I don't know. It just looks, I don't know why. But there'll be nothing going on and I can often move fish. It's pretty cool.
Katie
Now, how do your techniques change when you're putting floating on it? Because I assume you're no longer trying to make it dive and swing, or are you? You're trying to keep it closer to the surface when you're doing that.
Heidi
So you can put floating on, like say you're fishing midges. And one of my favorite midge patterns that will work all year long is the sills midge. And you can tie them big, you can tie them small. So you can tie them really big to look like a buffalo midge or cluster midge. And then you can add float into those and fish them upstream on top of the water.
Katie
Oh, so you're basically fishing them like a dry fly at that point.
Heidi
You just, yeah, you dress them and you fish them on the surface. You could fish them upstream just under the surface, maybe a little less float or none at all and just kind of hold, you know, high stick it and you can fish it upstream. You can fish it just, you know, under the water, high sticking it down towards you and just, you know, manage your line. And that's really effective for midges. And depending on what the, where the fish are keying in on, you know, in the water column, there are some folks out there, that will fish numerous wet flies. Some are, you know, maybe have wings on them and some like they'll fit, they call it a cast of characters where, you know, if they can in certain bodies, water fish three at a time, that's a very traditional way and have tags and, and fish them upstream to down and not swing them and just fish them in the water column that way
Katie
are you just feeling how are you feeling for your take are you just tight lining and just setting it on if you feel feel a bump or fishing upstream
Heidi
you can if you're really kind of you have good line management you can feel them you get really often see them because you're not fishing super deep so you'll see a fish flash or turn sometimes before you feel it especially if you're fishing just under the surface. Um, but even, even deeper, or you can, if you're watching the line, you can see it, you know, go tight for sure. Yeah. So it's a different, it's a different feel. It's a different technique. It's much harder, than just down and across where they eat it and you feel it right away. You just, yeah, they almost hook themselves at that point. They do. They eat it in turn and they hook themselves. That's the hardest part I think about the, like just learning wet flies is taking that moment just to let them hook themselves before you rod tip. I know when I started, I just kept like missing fish. Like they'd eat it and I couldn't like set the hook and you just have to take a, take a breath before you raise the rod tip, like let them turn and eat it. Cause usually that's what they're doing. Exactly.
Katie
It's weird how, how, different species and techniques of fishing and stuff require such different hook sets. Cause like I grew up fishing smallmouth bass and, I was aware of the concept of a hook set, but I didn't do it for maybe the first 15 years I fished because smallmouth bass just hook themselves. They grab and go. And it wasn't until I started fishing for trout that I really had to learn how to hook set. And even before that, what I was aware of was a bass hook set, like a largemouth bass where you just yank it. And so I think it was good that I maybe hadn't had to set a hook before that because the trout set was basically the first set I learned. And I know a lot of people when they first get started are really bad at setting the hook because they're overdoing it. And I could see that being a benefit almost not having any, like basically coming in as a blank slate. But like you said, now there's so many different ways that fish set themselves on the hook, I guess. But it's not, it's not just as simple as knowing to yank when you feel something.
Heidi
Yeah. Especially, I mean, that's just a whole nother concept of if you're fishing a big dry with big fish and you have to wait longer. Oh my God. That's really hard when you see a fish slowly come up yeah so they come up with a big bug and you have to wait for him to bring it down or sometimes even trout kind of do like the bass thing like the toilet bowl where like it's a disappearing fly I I fish for smallies in Wisconsin which I'm going in a couple weeks I cannot wait is you know if the fly disappears you set the hook and sometimes trout can be like that with dry flies too where they you're like the fly was just there like I didn't even see the fish yeah it's just gone it's so crazy yeah I mean that's a whole part of the game
Katie
right is is the hook set absolutely when that happens in clear water at least you can see the fish come up and you see you know where the the fly went but I don't know if you've ever had that happen in like turbid water where the fly literally just seems to vanish and there's no there's no real like ripple or anything and you didn't see the fish because it's murky and it's just gone
Heidi
and you get some fish that way like I don't know what to do like I don't know if I was fast or slow or you know oh it's fun and the same with like fishing streamers from a boat to like watch it all happen I always like that's for me like that's the biggest like mind game with fish is watching it and see if I make you know if I don't screw it up because it's so exciting and you see it all happen and like I do way better not seeing the fish eat yeah I'm trying to like control myself you know to make it happen you know
Katie
I know I know you mentioned that you don't do a lot of still water but one thing I would encourage you to give it a try if you're just like you know I'm kind of getting bored and I want to try something new. One thing that I find with still water, if you're fishing clear still water for big fish, because they can come up from so much deeper and there's no current taking the fly away, they can take their grand old time getting from below up to your dry fly. And that is such like an adrenaline rush when you're watching a huge fish just like slowly rise in the water column. And you're like, I don't know if it's going to reject it. I don't know if it's going to take it. And in the moment it does, like you get to watch it for so much longer because in a stream, the fish has got to choose, you know, I'm going to take it or I'm going to not take it. So if you ever want like a real rush and want to give Stillwater a try, that's some of like the most heart pounding fishing experiences I've had is watching big fish come up in lakes. Are you doing that on a boat? Sometimes a belly boat, but often just from shore as well.
Heidi
Okay. I haven't had that experience Stillwater fishing because usually when I'm doing it, we're down, you know, nine feet or I'm fishing streamers in the dark, you know, from the So I haven't had that. I've seen video of it, you know, like watching fish like swim around the thing and then finally go after it. And you're like, what are you doing?
Katie
I'm sure you have some lakes that you could do this like high mountain lakes in Utah, because that's normally what it is here is like the cutthroats and the alpine lakes in Colorado. They'll get really big. And I'm sure you guys are in the same boat. So I'm sure you've got something somewhere you can go and try it.
Heidi
Oh, I'm sure. I'm going to keep that in mind. That sounds like a thrill.
Katie
And especially since you said you'd rather catch a couple large fish than a bunch of small ones, I feel like this would be right up your alley.
Heidi
Yeah. Don't you think that everybody has like that fishing journey of like when you first get started, you just, you want to get out there and just like catch a bunch of fish. Like you don't care how you do it. You know, you just want to like, you just want to catch fish. Right. And then you get out there and you're like, well, I want to catch a fish maybe in this way. You know, I want to use like this technique and, but I still want to catch a ton of fish. And they're like, well, maybe I want to catch just a few fish that are a little bigger than I remember, you know, in this technique. And then I think then it's just like, I just want to do it this way, catch the biggest fish and then like go home. And then I think the last one is, and this is what I hear. I'm not there yet. It's like, I just want to go to the river and just like hang out and take pictures. Yeah. Watch somebody else catch a fish. So I'm definitely not there yet.
Katie
I don't have enough years under my belt there, but. I feel like maybe there's a halfway point where you're not just going deliberately to take pictures, but you're acknowledging that it's okay if you don't catch anything, you'll still have a good time. And I feel like maybe that's where I'm at, where it's like, I'm not going to go and not fish. Like, I don't know if I'll ever hit that stage. But I can come out of it being like, that was still fun, you know, even if I didn't catch anything.
Heidi
For sure. Yeah. Or, and definitely, you know, trying different techniques, challenging yourself, maybe with a sinking line, a floating line, like swinging flies or fishing dry, something you don't normally do. You know, I think we all kind of get hung up on like, I like these certain flies. I want to use these. Well, if you catch a couple of fish, like try a different fly, maybe try the ugliest one, you tie it and see if it works. You know, that's always fun is to like, keep it fresh and push yourself. Like you can never not learn something out there or change it up.
Katie
And it's so hard though to do it or to make that change when you know how you don't reliably catch fish. Because like I said, I've been wanting to kind of dedicate a summer to wet flies, but then I go out and I'm like, ah, but I know I can catch fish doing it this way. And I might not catch as many fish if I do it that way. So like, it's really hard to make yourself try a new technique unless you've already caught a whole bunch of fish.
Heidi
But you might surprise yourself. It might really be fun. You might catch a lot of fish. I mean you never know until you try it but there are certain rivers where I go I'm like this is a nymphing river you know that I'm just like that's just what you do there yeah but even some of those lately I'm like I'm gonna swing some flies and see what happens you know and maybe I don't do it all day like do you have to you know there's no like right or wrong way to your day you know you can try it for a little bit or definitely maybe when you see fish like really starting to get moving it's a great time to swing flies because they're super active the chasing stuff yeah yeah before they're eating the duns on the water I mean give yeah give it a try you don't have to do it all day but I think it'll really surprise you especially when there are no fish rising it can be really effective it's really cool it's way better than watching a bobber I think when anything is yeah at least you're casting a bunch and walking and yeah oh my gosh.
Katie
I think one of the best, the best times to try that in like the best way possible is when you've already caught so many fish in one day doing something that you're like, if I don't catch any more fish, I really couldn't care less. And so that I feel like it's the perfect time to try a new technique because you don't want to go out there and then not catch anything. And you're like, well, you know, I would have caught fish. Like you're thinking of what, what if, like, what if I had done what I'm comfortable with, I would have caught fish. But if you've already caught a ton, like this happened to me recently in Wyoming, where I had already caught so many fish and nymphing that I was like, I don't care if they're not rising. I'm going to try dry fly and see if they eat something. Right. It's like, yeah, it's perfect. Because you're like, I don't, if I don't catch anything else, like no worries.
Heidi
Yeah. And I'm at the point with wet flies that I, I mean, if the fish aren't rising, it's like, that's all I'm doing. But sometimes even when the fish are rising, I'm like, oh, I have to change my wet fly. Like I love dry fly fishing, but I'm like so into wet fly fishing. Like I'm rising. No, I mean, I should practice what I preach, you know, like change it up. But I really love swinging flies. I love like the jolt at the end. I like to see the fish move that, you know, I mean, there's so much about it that I'm kind of stuck on now at this point. But I try not to limit myself because there's always something to learn doing something different or just not getting stuck in a pattern.
Katie
Yeah, it's still fun if you feel like you've peaked and there's nothing else to do or try. I feel like what, you know, what draws you in at the beginning is that it is this like foreign concept. You've never done this before. It's something, you know, intriguing, mysterious, and there's all kinds of stuff to learn. And it sometimes can start to get boring, but then you realize that like, no, you can just not, you can just let it not get boring by just trying something new and making it a learning experience.
Heidi
Yeah. I can't imagine fly fishing ever being boring. No, there's always something new to do. Holy hell. It's so, it's so, and every day is so different, you know, too, when you go out there, like it's never the same.
Katie
Well, like you mentioned, like the stages you go through where you want to catch a bunch of fish, you want to catch a big fish and you start to get comfortable with just like being out there. I feel like that changes day to day for me, too. Like I see what you mean in general. Like, you know, when you first start out, you want to catch a fish and then it starts to change. Like, do you want to try a new technique? But there's days I want to go out. I'm like, you know what, I just I do want to just catch a bunch of little fish. Like that'll just be a blast to be out there with my friends and everyone's catching fish. And then other days I'm like, I'm just not interested in catching a bunch of small fish. Like I'm going to focus on the one. And then other days I'm like, I just want to be somewhere by myself. Like I don't care if the fishing is good. I just want to be on the water. Um, so I feel like even day to day, it's just like, what kind of mood are you in?
Heidi
Yeah. And that can help you pick the location and where you want to fish too, you know, bringing it all back around. Yeah. Well, yeah. Do you just want to go like rail on a bunch of fish? Do you want to go see if, you know, this, a certain area holds fish or what size, or, you just want to wet wade and you want to go on a small stream. I mean, yeah, it's, It's so fun to like, think about where I'm going to fish next and like get prepared for the next day and like tie flies and research. Like that's part of like my stoke too, to get going is like, I love sitting down and tying flies the day before a trip. Like, oh my gosh, I could stay up till one in the morning and I'll be so tired the next day. Cause I'm just like geeking out on like getting everything ready. And, you know, it's just a part of like the fun adventure of it.
Katie
I agree. I find the prep is like sometimes, well, I'll never say it's like more fun than the fishing, but it has at times been just as fun as the fishing itself is to get it all planned out. And like the night before you're like, oh, I can't wait. Yeah, exactly. It gets you amped.
Heidi
I know. See, we're the same in that way. I love it.
Katie
I've joked before that I would like, and maybe this job could exist, but like a fly fishing trip planner, because I see people come on like the fly fishing subreddit and they'll be like, hey, where can I fish around wherever? And I'm like, maybe you could get paid to just plan someone's like week long fishing trip, like DIY fishing trip where they're like, hey, I want to hit a couple lakes. I want to hit a couple rivers. I want to catch this and that. And like you could just go through and just play on the maps and read stuff about places and then just like have them pay you a couple hundred bucks to send them a full package of like, just follow my itinerary. Like I've planned it for you. And you can that way you could like be in planning process even when you don't have a trip coming up. I feel like that would be kind of a dream job. Yeah, it's like being like a travel agent, you know, like that's plan your trip.
Heidi
But you don't have to call the airlines and stuff. Right. Yeah. I mean, oh, that's an interesting thought. But like I'm a little torn on that one because I would think like some of, you know, the locations and trips you would send people on, you've done work to get to that point. Yeah, like you wouldn't want to give up your findings. Yeah.
Katie
Like would you feel comfortable sharing that whole itinerary? Maybe you just charge thousands of dollars for the ones you're not sure about.
Heidi
There's a price. There's a price for you. I don't know if I have a price on that, but I've had friends like friends, husbands be like, hey, I want to I want to send my wife somewhere. Like, where do you suggest in like this area? And I'm like, oh, do this loop, you know, so like I'll do that sometimes for people that I know. And, you know, something like that. But yeah, to share some spots.
Katie
That's true. I feel like sometimes when I find something, I'm like, oh, I bet no one else knows about this. Even though people do, but it's not widely known. So you feel like you've found everything.
Heidi
I don't think there are any secrets anymore, but it doesn't mean you have to share where you've been.
Katie
Right, right. Yeah, I think you just hike the price up for the ones that you feel like are more of a hidden gem than the other ones. And you can sell the stuff that everybody knows about for a much cheaper price. Yeah, with a non-disclosure. Right. You cannot tell anyone about this. I'm not competing on this one. You may not share, you may not tell. Don't send anybody else here and don't tag it. There we go. I think we've just invented a new career. There we go. You first. What's your price? Let's see how much money you make. I love it. All right. Well, we can get wrapping up soon. We started a little bit late, so I don't want to keep you too long. Do you have anywhere that if people want to come find you? I did see that you run some groups in Utah. So if you want to get a hold of you or maybe join you in one of the groups you're in, where can people find you?
Heidi
Okay. So my main Instagram is Heidi Aqua on Instagram there. And then I started Utah Women Fly Fishers in 2013. I believe that group is that old now. So we're on Facebook. There's like a private group, Utah Women Fly Fishers. And then there's an Instagram. Kind of in a lull with COVID. But I do, especially if somebody's in the Facebook group, you know, I'll have events in there for casting and sometimes some fish outs and things like that. Or if they want information on, you know, where can I take a class outside of what we do? I can I can help them with that and send them in the right direction or, you know, suggest a guide in the area or something like that. So, yeah, those mostly Instagram and a little bit on Facebook.
Katie
Perfect. all right well I really appreciate you coming on and I know you had a kind of hectic day so I I'm glad you took the time to do this this is a lot of fun I always love talking about fishing I mean we could probably go on it all right well I will I'll let you get going but thanks so much yeah have a good night nice chat with you all right guys thanks for listening don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes and also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me, and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening, and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.