Ep 49: Great Lakes Steelhead Fishing, with Nick DelVecchio
Nick DelVecchio (also featured in episode 6) is a passionate angler and fly fishing guide based out of Franklin, PA. He is the owner and head guide at Wildwood Outfitters. Although Nick, like many of us, spends his summers focusing on trout, he spends the rest of the year targeting Great Lakes steelhead in PA, OH, and NY. In this episode, Nick walks me through the basics of Great Lakes steelhead fishing. We cover the controversy around calling these fish steelhead, their annual cycle, good and bad fishing conditions, crowds, flies, gear, and much more!
Website: wildwoodoutfitterspa.com
Instagram: @wildwoodoutfitterspa
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 49 with Nick Delvecchio on great lake steelhead fishing. Are you drinking anything?
Nick
Diet Snapple.
Katie
Oh, I thought you were going to join me for a beer.
Nick
Man, it's guide season. These early days are killers. I've got to run a tight ship. Otherwise, the 5.30 a.m. client tomorrow morning doesn't get the full nick if I have a couple in the evening. So we got to keep it on the straight and narrow until 4th of July.
Katie
So are you booked up basically every day, weekends and weekdays?
Nick
Yeah. I think I have Mother's Day off by choice. And then it's like 21 straight days. And then I took Memorial Day off by choice. And then I have Father's Day off by choice. And then I have 4th of July off by choice. So it's pretty much, if someone calls now, I just don't have anywhere to put them. I mean, we're talking July and then I'm like, well, yeah, we can go unless it's 100 degrees and we haven't had rain for a month and then the trout are dead. So, you know, I guess we can book it if you want. But yeah, it's pretty much, it's seven days a week. And, you know, it was probably four or five days a week through April, but May, we really hit our stride and that's whenever it goes full bore for two and a half months.
Katie
And is this like all day? Like, are you doing half day trips, two half days a day or one full day? Or is it like, what's your setup?
Nick
This is the first year that I've had to do two half days, you know, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, just because of the demand. You know, I mean, we ran out of dates so fast that we started having to have people come in the afternoon. And some people prefer that, which is which is cool because, you know, you can get a little bit different perspective of the streams, maybe hit a afternoon, evening hatch. especially around here, our biggest hatch is the granum caddis, which kind of comes off all through the day and into the evening. So the half days in the afternoon are kind of nice, because you get that little bit different perspective, but it's either a full day or I'll do one in the morning, one in the afternoon, and then just hope it doesn't rain because we don't have anywhere to put people if we do have rain.
Katie
Do you think the increase in numbers is just like you're finally kind of hitting your stride and people are getting to know you as a guide, or is it pandemic related? why are some people showing up?
Nick
Well, the angling pressure is certainly pandemic related. Wednesdays are the new Saturdays for sure. There, there, there's so much angling pressure out there just in the last year or so, which is great, you know, to see everyone out there enjoying the out, out of doors and, you know, getting into fly fishing. But, you know, really what turned it for us was we developed a stronger presence on Google, you know, figured out some Google ad stuff and figured out a way to get in front of the people that were looking for the type of services that we offer. And then whenever those people found us, you know, they found our prices to be competitive and we provide all the gear on trips, you know, and we, we put a lot of care and thought into making sure that everyone has a quality trip, you know, no matter if it's the one person half day that just wants to learn or the three person full day that books five days in a row and wants to put up numbers. You know, it's, you know, we kind of try to make each trip unique to those people. You know, and I'm sure some of it too, is just being one year older, you know, last year as a business, you know, building up our client list a little bit, but we have a strong group that fishes with us every year. And, you know, it's so neat where we are because we can fish for trout here locally in Northwest PA. Then we can go out to central PA and fish some of the storied trout streams there. And then we can go to PA and fish for steelhead in the winter. And then we can go to Ohio and steelhead fish in the spring. So it's just, there's so much to do. And it's also different that someone could book four, five, six, seven, you know, 10 different trips with us and we would literally do something different on different waters every single time.
Katie
Right. Yeah. That area is just so varied in what you can do. I mean, I guess maybe we should say this is your second time on so you can go ahead and plug your name Wildwood again. But I did, I had a tidbit for you. Since interviewing you the last time, I've had two other people with companies named Wildwood on. So I think I've got three. So this will be four episodes out of about 50 or about something named Wildwood, which I thought was just kind of funny.
Nick
To go back in time, I would have put probably a bit more thought into our name because as it so happens, there's a Wildwood Outfitters in Georgia that runs canoe and kayak trips on some sort of river. So every now and then I'll get a phone call where someone says, hey, Wildwood Outfitters, we'd like to book a guided kayak trip down the Chattahoochee this weekend. And it's like, ah, I might not be able to help you out there. You know, if you, if you'd like to come fish for steelhead, you know, in Erie PA, we got you covered, but the kayak trip, you know, in North Georgia, we might, we might not be of much use there.
Katie
You know, what you got to do is get a remote employee down in Georgia who just does kayak tours. And so when someone does call you up and they're obviously looking for the other company, you can be like, oh yeah, let me just hook you up with Bill, he'll get you out.
Nick
Yeah, that would, you know, we'd save quite a bit on lost advertising revenue from people that click on us and say, hey, wait a minute now, we're going to be in north of Atlanta this weekend, Wildwood Outfitters. So yeah, having a Wildwood Outfitters South location might not be the worst idea in the world.
Katie
My similar recent experience is that I wrote a blog post maybe a year or more ago about the benefits of fiberglass mounts over traditional taxidermy. And since then, I've been getting messages asking if people can send me their photos and measurements so I can make them a mount. And I'm like, I don't think you understood the point of this blog post.
Nick
Well, hey, maybe you've worked yourself into a new side gig there.
Katie
I know. I mean, I've gotten several orders so far that I had to turn down.
Nick
Well, send us over your price sheet. We'll see. That might be an added service for Wildwood. Say, hey, we have an affiliation with Katie who can reproduce this beautiful fish you caught on your trip nearly free of charge. So there you go. We've already got it figured out.
Katie
Oh, man, people would be getting some ugly fish back from me. I'm not even sure what I'd make them out of. Well, cool. So what have you guys been fishing for lately? Are you solidly in a trout season now? I know we're going to talk about steelhead. I want to talk about seasons for steelhead too, but are you kind of into a trout at this point?
Nick
Yeah. Yeah. We've been in, we've been in trout mode here for the last few weeks. You know, our, our calendar sort of turns from steelhead to trout, usually the first or second week of April, you know, with a couple of days of overlap, which is always a fun time whenever you're on the Ohio trips one day and then guiding for, you know, native brookies the next day, And then back to, you know, that, that juxtaposition, I guess, of those fishes and waterways and strategies is really kind of neat. But yeah, this time of year, it's all trout all the time. And we'll run that through summer as long as we can. Two summers ago, that meant literally all year, you know, it was a cool, wet summer. and those trout hung around and they were, you know, safe. You know, we always try to be mindful of stream temps, you know, just like most other anglers that are into conservation and catch and release practices and trying to keep the populations intact. You know, sometimes we get some really dry, really hot Julys and that shuts things down in a hurry. Those water temperatures push up above 70, 75 even. So we'll guide from here into the summer as long as Mother Nature lets us.
Katie
Do you guys have any streams there that shut down in the summer because of temperatures or are they open and you're just kind of self-policing? Well, it's self-policing.
Nick
The Pennsylvania Fish Commission is never going to tell you to not go. So that's just kind of a self-policing measure, you know, because this is a long-term play for us. And especially in streams where there's some wild trout present, we care a great deal about those fish being safe, being happy in there and continuing to make more wild trout for us to go after. So, you know, for us as a business, it's not worth the extra half dozen, you know, 10, 12, whatever trips to really put that undue stress on the ecosystem, you know, to be blunt about it, you know, the ecosystem of those streams relies a great deal on, especially in our area, the wild browns, you know, we do have some brookies, but most of our wild fish are browns, you know, so to make sure they're happy and safe through summer is important. And it's why we're checking water temps from about the second week of June until we don't have to worry about water temps anymore, or until the water temps tell us, let's head for head for somewhere else.
Katie
So are you just combating that in the summertime by going to a place that's not as hot? Like, you know, does everywhere shut down? And what do you guys do?
Nick
So we're on the Western, what we call the Western fringe of the best trout fishing in Pennsylvania. You know, we're kind of coming off the Allegheny mountains there and the Appalachian mountains as a whole. So we combat that a little bit and we extend our season by heading further east into the mountains, going into some of those tiny little mountain streams in the Appalachians, North Central, Central PA, the Spring Creeks there, you know, that helps you hedge your bets a little bit. And it's not perfect, you know, really by the second week of August, sometimes the first week of August, things are pretty tight. You know, things are pretty tough. That's a tough, tough time of year for those trout. But we can extend our season a bit by just traveling further into the mountains where those streams are cooler, or maybe they're more spring-fed, not as much farmland, a little more shade, a little more remote. That helps us extend our season through July, typically.
Katie
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So going back to Steelhead, maybe we should break the ice here and just bring up the elephant in the room with Steelhead. Why don't you just rattle off your thoughts to me about Great Lakes Steelhead and whether they’re a myth.
Nick
Well, you, you said let's break the ice. And I immediately had a shiver down my spine, thinking back to those extremely hospitable Great Lakes days of January and February, on the Lake Erie trips there. Um, so very, very appropriate. I was, I was definitely going for it. Yeah. Whenever you, whenever you serve me up a softball like that, I mean, I gotta, I got to pounce. So, yeah, I mean, the, we do most of our trips and most of our fishing on the streams going into Lake Erie, you know, there's obviously a steelhead fishery throughout the great lakes as a whole, you know, all of the great lakes, you know, have something going on, but we, we stick to kind of the Cleveland to the PA New York line a little bit fish, those two areas for steelhead, which gives you more steelhead water than you could explore in a hundred lifetimes. I mean, every piece of stream that goes into Lake Erie can at one time have steelhead in it. You know, there are obviously the more famous ones, the ones that get the smolt stockings in the spring. But those steelhead, they're just an amazing creature. You know, their ability to power through waterfalls, beaver dams, make it past the hordes of walleye that are out to get them, the anglers, you know, the firing squad of anglers ready to see how many they can get for the smoker. I mean, it's just it's incredible as a migration, you know, different than the West Coast steelhead, where you look at some of those West Coast steelhead and you say, holy smokes, this steelhead went 1000 miles. You know, that in and of itself is impressive. But for our fish, it's usually the human elements that they persevere through that makes you say that's unbelievable. Because the fact of the matter is our streams are near all these population centers. You know, we're talking less than two hours from Cleveland, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, you know, not terribly far from New York City. We get a lot of folks from New York City that come over, some folks from Chicago, Detroit. So, you know, we're at like this epicenter of the Great Lakes steelhead game and around so darn many people. But no matter what, I mean, those fish, they make that run and they're there. And boy, they are just a ton of fun to tangle with. The alligator in a phone booth, as we call them.
Katie
What do you say to somebody who says that they're not real steelhead?
Nick
I say that's OK. You know, I keep a little salt shaker in my pack that every now and then I'll give a little sprinkle in the stream to say, there you go. You know, now those now those fish have some salt going through their gills. But, you know, we get that sometimes from folks that say, well, I was out west and, you know, those are real steelhead. And then I say, oh, yeah, how many did you catch? And it's like, well, you know, the other boat hooked one in three days. And I'm like, oh, OK. Sounds fun. Just hang tight with me here today. Let's let's do this half day. Let's do this full day and then, you know, we'll see. We'll see what you think. In fact, earlier this spring, moving forward, maybe I'll just tell them this little anecdote. I was on what was supposed to be a one-person full-day trip over in Ohio for Steelhead. And the guy quit at 1030 in the morning because he said, I don't know that my arm can handle anymore. it's a good problem to have. And it wasn't from swinging flies. It was from the hookups and the battles. So, you know, they may not be true steelhead by the purest of definition, but you tangle with a couple of those and they've got that fight in them.
Katie
What do you think it is about this subject that really gets people riled up? Because, like, for example, I've seen the one I see all the time is when people call golden rainbow trout or palomino trout golden trout, thinking it's the same thing that lives, you know, out in the Sierras. And that one bothers me because they're actually talking about two different, like completely unrelated, well, not completely unrelated, but, you know, they're not the same fish. Whereas this is more of a semantics thing of like which one hits saltwater, but it is the same fish. You know, they're both basically giant rainbow trout. One hits salt and one doesn't. So, like, where does that, you know, rage pop up from, do you think, in people who get really riled up about it?
Nick
You know, that's a good question. And kind of to your point that they're the same and not to go off on too much, too much of a tangent here. But, you know, in the world of COVID, you know, everything's kind of messed up, including steelhead stocking. And Ohio in particular typically gets their eggs and their smolt from Michigan. Well, that didn't happen because, you know, long story short, egg collections didn't happen in Michigan because of COVID and all kind of stuff. So Ohio this year stocked a strain from California. You know, they got the fish from California. So now we are literally talking the same fish with the difference being one's going to go into Lake Erie, one's going to go into the into the ocean. And, you know, maybe that maybe that just answers the difference.
Katie
They just want it to be something that is not.
Nick
Yeah, you know, I think part of it is our fisheries are really unique because you see those West Coast steelheaders and they're in boats, you know, they're in these temperate rainforests and they're swinging flies. And, you know, it's just it's it's really a romantic site. You know, I mean, those those I don't I don't know, maybe aside from the articles that I've written about it a few in a few spots. But, you know, there's not a whole lot of people clamoring to hang up the picture of some guy running a indicator rig under a bridge in downtown Erie with graffiti on the background.
Katie
That is exactly what I think of when I think of magazine covers.
Nick
and yeah it's it's just it's just a different scene you know ours is very urban you know I mean there's people around the crowds are intense intense intense intense I mean like like nothing like nothing that many people ever experience the crowds for steelhead and the streams are small you know which is really what makes our fisheries so unique is we're talking about usually site fishing for steelhead, which would just be such a totally foreign concept 99% of the time for West Coast steelheaders where they're like, well, this run or this pool looks promising. Let's swing flies through here for five hours. And there could maybe not even be a fish there just because it looks good doesn't mean there's a fish there. So I think at its core, the way we tackle going after steelhead, the techniques, the strategies, the water, the flies, you know, it just everything about it's different. Um, and I think both are cool, you know, for as cool as our fish are, you see some 40 inchers that come out of Washington state or British Columbia and it's like, Holy smokes, you know, that's, yeah, sign me up for that, you know, for sure. So they're, they're both cool. I think most of the animosity comes from the West coast guys towards us.
Katie
Oh yeah. I think it's, it’s 100% that direction.
Nick
Yeah, because I think a lot of Great Lakes steelheaders look at them out there and say, wow, you know, that's cool. That's something we'd like to do. Where the West Coast guys, you know, flourish the pinky a little bit and look down on us from up atop their perch a bit.
Katie
See, I just don't understand the... And I get what you're saying. Like, they kind of look down on it. I could see that perspective. You know, it seems like a more pure, you know, like you said, the image of a guy out there swinging flies for days on end waiting for that one tug is a romantic notion. So I can kind of see looking down on the like kind of urban area and just thinking that's not as good. But like I just don't understand the rage about the semantics of calling it a steelhead or not. To me it reminds me of like we've got brook trout here in Colorado up in the high streams that might only be a couple inches long. Those are a far cry from the you know 20 inch brook trout you might catch up in a lake in Canada that are just fat footballs. Like they don't even appear to be the same fish, but they are, you know, and, I get that the great lakes still don't touch salt, but in my mind, it's just two versions of the same thing.
Nick
You know, it's, it's one's a saltwater steelhead and one's not. And to their credit, they, by true definition, you know, they are just migratory rainbows. Um, but that's a mouthful, you know, we're right. Right. You know, it's like, you, We are just splitting hairs a bit. And what's so neat about it is, regardless of what anyone wants to think about them, it's so darn cool that these Great Lakes states got together and created this fishery out of nothing. Because they aren't native to the Great Lakes. They're obviously a West Coast fish. But they have taken hold so well in the Great Lakes. and it has produced this industry that generates billions of dollars. I mean, if we talk all the Great Lakes states and hotels and gas and airfare, people coming here, guide trips, fly shops, you know, restaurants, whatever. I mean, it is just, it is so neat that they have just created this and it has flourished. And we have the opportunity to go after these giant, we'll just call, We'll call them migratory rainbows, you know, so no one gets too upset. But, you know, I mean, we have these giant migratory fish that come into the streams for these brief periods of time and give us this window of opportunity to catch 24 to 30 inch, you know, 10 pound, 12 pound fish, you know, on a fly rod. And that it's so fleeting because they're here, then they're gone. But, you know, for that to have not only occurred the initial stocking programs, but then taken hold now to the point where it's just, you know, we're on the main stage in the steelhead game, you know, whether, whether or not, you know, some people like it, you know, when you talk steelhead, the Great Lakes comes up, you know, the Great Lakes comes up because our fishing is so strong. And those fish have done so well. And it just provides so many angling opportunities. It's just, it's so, we're very lucky to have it, you know, because without, without that program, you know, in the fall and winter, we're still fishing for trout, you know, which is fine, but it gives people so many more angling opportunities because of that.
Katie
Well, like you said, I feel like people go out west really wanting that fish of a lifetime. And if they don't have enough time to devote to it, they might come back with nothing at all. Whereas, you know, I've gone steelhead fishing once and it was on a tributary of Lake Erie and I caught a steelhead my first time out. And it was, like you said, it was a small river, super crowded, and I could see the fish before I hooked it, which is a fun experience in itself. And if I only had, if I had a week to go steelhead fish, I would probably go to the Pacific Northwest and get the full experience. But if I had a day or two to go, I'd be more inclined to say I'll go to the Great Lakes because I might actually have a chance at at least hooking up with something.
Nick
Yeah. And I think, you know, even furthering that, a lot of our trips are beginners. You know, we not only have a lot of anglers that fish with us that have never steelhead fish before, but they've never fly fish before. So six in the morning, they've never held a fly rod. Seven 30 in the morning, they've landed a couple steelhead. You know, that that's really cool. You know, that we're able to put people on those fish and the fishery and the setting is such that they have a chance to learn the basics of fly fishing and then put it to use on a two foot fish that fast is, I mean, that's awesome. You know, I wish my first fish on a fly rod was a two footer. You know, that's just, it's really cool to be able to experience that with people and then talk to them about how special those fish are and how cool it is that their first fish, you know, is on a, is a steelhead on a fly rod, maybe on four or five X tippet. You know, that it's a, it's a really cool thing.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I know. I feel like you might be ruining those people though, by getting them on too big a fish too fast.
Nick
I try to warn them that if we go steelhead first, we're setting the bar awful high. And then if we sort of go backwards and go to trout next spring or summer, that my disclaimer is it's going to be quite the trout if we get one bigger than the steelhead you're catching today.
Katie
Oh, I mean, if I could catch a trout that was larger than the steelhead I caught, I would probably opt for that trout, honestly. I feel like that would be a better experience. Like if I caught a rainbow, brown, or brook, or cutthroat, I guess really any of them. larger than the steelhead I caught, I'd be, I'd choose that over the steelhead, I think.
Nick
Yeah, I probably, I probably would too. I'll let you, I'll let you know whenever I see very many trout that fit into that category, but yeah, I probably would too.
Katie
So what, what are like the basic things that someone should know if they're thinking about coming to Northwestern Pennsylvania, Ohio, New York area, wanting to chase steelhead, like what are some of the basics, like maybe the seasons that they run and we can get into some of the basic gear after that?
Nick
One of the hardest things for any steelheader, you know, but especially beginners is to grasp the concept that the fish are either there or they aren't. And while that sounds super obvious, you know, we're talking about a migratory fish. You might have the best steelhead spot in the world. You know, just the perfect deep channel coming in and empties into a deep pool with a little bit of structure and just everything you'd want in a spot. But it could be totally devoid of fish. So you kind of got to switch your mindset, especially when you come from trout fishing first, where when you're reading water and you say, well, that looks like it could hold a couple of trout. Well, and more often than not, a couple of trout are holding there. Maybe you don't have a shot at them, but, you know, they're there. with steelhead, they can just not be there. So a lot of people come steelhead fish, specifically in Pennsylvania, where our streams are even smaller than Ohio or New York. And as such, they usually run low and clear. And just to backtrack a touch timeline we're talking about, you know, you'll start to hear the first reports of steelhead coming in Pennsylvania, usually September-ish, but the run really doesn't get going until we get those big fall rains. So by late October, early November, it's a little more consistent. And then by Thanksgiving, it's going big time. And then the peak of the run usually happens sometime in between Thanksgiving and New Year's, weather depending. Depends how much we get rain versus snow. You know, there's weather factors at play there, but that's usually about our peak. And then those fish will hang out through the winter under the ice if they have to, and then start to go back to the lake in late February, early March. And by early April, it's pretty much done.
Katie
So this is just one long season that starts in like kind of early fall and goes till mid spring.
Nick
Yeah. And, and, but with that in mind, you know, at the first sign of someone on Facebook saying they're in, they're in, they're in, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's worth it to go.
Katie
You might have a couple trickling in.
Nick
There's a couple trickling in. They'll come in at night, actually, and then sometimes go back out to the lake during the day when the sun gets up nice and high. So you'll have reports of guys catching them at the stream mouths or in the lower stretches of the tributaries first thing in the morning, and then they'll rush to the internet to say the run is on, it's on, it's on, it's on, and then it's not. You know, it's not that just to give you an indication, this is quite literally my livelihood. And we won't we won't book steelhead trips before mid-November. And the reason being is because until about that point, it's just too hard to predict how many fish are going to be in the drainages and how far upstream they're going to be. So the further they go up the drainage, the more guys spread out. You know, so those early season trips, whenever you hear of someone in October catching steelhead, they are, you know, they're in. But if the majority of that run is in the lower mile or two of a stream, well, that's where all the guys are. I mean, it's a really uncomfortable situation because there's more guys than fish, you know, so that can be a little tricky. But, yeah, season-wise, you know, you can pretty much count on, you know, if you don't care how many guys, you know, if you don't, if you just say when are they in the streams, we're talking late September until probably early April. For PA, Ohio is a little different. Ohio typically stocks a different strain of fish that is much more spring running. Now they'll get some strays from PA that wander their way over there. So they'll have some fish in the streams in the fall and winter, but they're much more of a spring run. You know, their run will start February, early March and run all through March, pretty much most of April, again, weather depending. But it's, it's a much shorter peak run, but whenever it's going, it's going, you know, it is, it is, it is incredible over there. If you hit it just right, the downside is it just doesn't last as long. You know, you can fish for steelhead in Pennsylvania for six, half the year, you know, but Ohio is shorter, but much more intense if you hit it right.
Katie
I'm going to ask a very stupid question probably that's going to show my ignorance on steelhead. And maybe, maybe you'll know the answer, but I feel like I've heard of steelhead in like two separate runs. Is that something that happens on the West coast? That's not the same for the great lakes, like a winter run and summer run, Or is that just on two ends of the same kind of large window and there happen to be like different peaks?
Nick
You know, to be honest with you, I can't speak much for the terminology or why the designations like that out west.
Katie
Am I crazy?
Nick
No, no, no. Okay. No, I mean, I've definitely heard that too. Or even if they call it like a class A, class B run, you know, I think that might have to do with the size of fish. Don't quote me on that. I mean, I guess I'm being recorded, so it is kind of a quote. Everyone's quoting. Yeah, I just said it directly, so it doesn't get any more quote than that. But I don't know about that.
Katie
But you've heard the same thing, right? Like you've heard reference to two different... Okay, I'll have to talk to a West Coast steelheader and find that out.
Nick
Someone a little more versed on the biology of those fish. But for ours, it just depends on the strain of fish. So, you know, not to dive too deep into the biology, but the Ohio strain that they typically use in a non-COVID year, comes from Michigan and that strain is more of a spring run. The Pennsylvania strain that they have created, they call it the Heinz 57 blend. So it's from a few different strains of steelhead, one of which being the summer run steelhead, I think you pronounce it Skamania. So that's why, because it has a little summer run steelhead in it, That's why our fish come in in the fall, whereas the Ohio fish don't really start coming in until spring. So in terms of when our fish come in and how you call it fall run, winter run, spring run, that just points back to whatever strain of steelhead they are and when they're instinctively supposed to be running in the streams.
Katie
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Side tangent here, what is the motivation behind people hopping online trying to be the first one to declare their fish in the water? Cause I feel like in my mind, if I find fish in the water and I think that they're running, I don't want anyone else to know about it.
Nick
I don't know the, the, the tail end and the beginning of the season are just so bizarre, you know, because we, we pulled the plug on, steelhead trips, you know, the first or second week of April, just because, you know, the run was past its peak and starting to slow down, which means every day you're out, it's just getting worse because more of the fish are going back to the lake. There aren't any more fish coming in. you know but it's really bizarre because there's also you know there's the there's the race to see who can catch one first I don't know if it's just to prove that everyone online that says no it's too early to go up there and steelhead fish is wrong
Katie
that's how I saw them first
Nick
yeah and now it's like everyone's out to say well they're still catching them and it's like all right you know fine
Katie
maybe there's a guy out there who wants to be the first and the last person to catch a steelhead in Pennsylvania every
Nick
year I don't know I mean it's something well you know facebook brings out the best of people so
Katie
That's what I've heard yeah it's I just I just can't imagine being like oh you know here here comes my favorite time of year because you know whatever whatever's happening like I mean out here we're not really dealing with runs apart from like the kokanee run but you know the the rainbows will start to move a little bit when it's spawning time but I just can't imagine seeing rainbows coming up into some of the rivers and rushing to the internet to tell them hey come hit this spot that I want to hit
Nick
no it's it seems a bit counter counterproductive for your own personal angling opportunities but you know you trout for the cloud you know you got to do it. You got to do it for the likes. So what are you going to do? Someone's got to be first.
Katie
That's, that's true. Uh, well, okay. So are there, any regulated seasons? I know we went over the seasons of when they run, are there dates that you are allowed to target steelhead and how, if so, how does that correspond? Or is it, is it open season?
Nick
It's open season. Um, but just the, the biology of the fish kind of regulates it a little bit because they're just physically not there, you know, for so much of the year for the summer months. So as soon as you see them, you can target them. Yep. Yep. As soon as you see them, you can target them. There's not, in Pennsylvania, you know, and Ohio, to the best of my knowledge, we don't guide every water in Ohio, but I'm pretty darn sure of this. There's no such thing as, you know, delayed harvest or catch and release areas, with the only exception being there are two little nursery streams in Pennsylvania that you cannot fish at all. And the Fish Commission uses those areas to gather the steelhead, collect them up so they can take the sperm, take the eggs for the hatcheries. So there's no fishing at all in those nursery waters. But regulation wise on people fishing, the rest of the tributaries there's nothing nothing to suggest this time of year or slot limits you know for steelhead nothing like that you can keep probably you know if you ask me I'm no fish biologist but you can keep a few too many than you should be able to you know but you can't keep fish you can't keep them you know if you're if you're into portion whatever you know from the EPA and how many fish you should or shouldn't eat from bodies of water. Yeah. You know, if you're into having a third arm grow out of, you know, your back or, you know, something like that. Yeah. You can, you can harvest them. You can harvest them.
Katie
Yeah, that's true. I, I know that Lake Erie has been cleaned up a lot over the years, but when the bar starts that low, even clean from, from where it used to be is not necessarily maybe food grade standard.
Nick
no I mean it's it's pretty wild I yeah I'm not we're obviously all catch and release so I'm not super versed on the dietary restrictions by waterway but I think it's something crazy like eight ounces of lake Erie fish per month is the record yeah that's and you know an average steelhead for Pennsylvania is going to run maybe four or five six pounds you know so if you decide you're going to throw one of those puppies on the smoker and then yeah invite a whole family over yeah yeah it's like well yeah there's your two-year allotment of lake Erie fish
Katie
see here's the problem I have with those scales is I see we have those for Colorado too and it's like some things are you know eat as much as you want I feel like I see like brook trout from the mountains here like you could eat as many as you want you're fine but then there's some fish that it says like one a month and I'm like well if it's already that low I don't really want it ever
Nick
If there's any restriction at all, I probably don't need to be eating it.
Katie
If it's once a week or lower, I can handle it.
Nick
Yeah. And how did they determine the eight ounces? Did they determine the 10 ounces would eventually lead to increased risks of who knows what? What's the negative? Yeah. If they have to set the mark anywhere, I'm good on it.
Katie
Yeah. That's kind of how I feel. I just don't want it. Also, what are the repercussions if you don't follow that? Yeah. What is it that you're looking at?
Nick
You just die.
Katie
I had two eight ounce portions in a month.
Nick
Yep. One bite too many. It was eight and a half ounces. Just drops dead.
Katie
Just immediately. It's like cyanide.
Nick
Yep. Hey, we'd have more steelhead in the streams. I'll tell you that. Not that I'm advocating for that, but, you know, there would be more fish around.
Katie
So how many steelhead can a person reasonably expect to catch in a day if they go out? and do a decent job at fishing?
Nick
That's such a good question. And it's one that we get asked a lot. You know, people want to know what to expect going into a guide trip. And with steelhead, it is so hard to predict because unless it's someone that's a repeat guest and we know their angling skill level, there's a lot of unknowns. You know, just based on the way we fish and the size of the streams, feel pretty confident that we're going to get you casting, drifting, the right flies, you know, those whole nine yards. But fighting the fish is so darn tricky that, you know, we have trips where folks will hook 15 or 20 fish in a day, but maybe land three or four.
Katie
Oh, wow. Okay.
Nick
You know, but then you'll have someone else that hooks 10 and lands nine. So, so much of it is on the angler because once we hook one, it's kind of pandemonium. You know, I mean, I'm, I'm there saying raw tip left, right, way up high, let him go, let him go, let him go. Hand off the reel, hand off the reel, reel it hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hard so for especially new anglers that can be a lot there's a lot a lot going on and we're talking one second of your hand on the spool or holding the line while that fish is making a run and the whole thing's just over you know the whole thing is just over it's that fast because our streams typically run super low and clear super low and clear they run off so fast so So we have to use light line. Okay.
Katie
That was going to be my next question actually is why are you using, I think you said like 5X tippet on these steelhead instead of something a little thicker.
Nick
5X is really the tippet of last resort. Is 4X preferred? Yeah. 4X, you know, I mean, we won't run 5X unless we absolutely have to. And if we have an angler that has experience fishing 5X, you know, just because at some point it probably becomes a little unethical to be hooking fish online that you can't reasonably land right playing for an hour and drag them in so 4x is really the sweet spot for tippet but that's not that heavy of tippet for 24 to 30 inch fish right you know those are big those are big big fish that are used to swimming in lake erie and now we've put them in a stream 20 feet across so how many to catch it's just there's so many factors that also go into it with weather, you know, because weather is just everything for steelhead because those fish will come into the stream and continue to move upstream after rain events. So when it rains and those streams blow out, then those fish make their move. Well, when that water starts to recede, then it's like a big game of musical chairs. Wherever those fish are at, when that water starts to crest and come back down the other side, they'll kind of hang out there for a little bit. Now there's obviously still some migration that goes on at night and stuff like that. But for the most part, that's where they are until the next rain. So if you just have these prolonged stretches without rain and the streams are low and clear, it's tough. It's tough sledding. Those fish, they get pounded on seven days a week, seven days a week by hundreds, thousands of anglers. So they get wise to our game a little bit. And then once you hook one, they're not easy to land. So that's why a lot of steelhead anglers give you two numbers, how many they hooked and how many they landed. Because there are so many that you hook that just beat you. I go out on my own and there's some that just beat me. It's an animal that is used to having the whole of Lake Erie at its disposal. And now I've put it in a hole the size of my truck.
Katie
So maybe a better question is how many can you reasonably expect to hook in a day? Because I feel most reasonable people, I would say, if they go out on a guided trip and hook 30 fish and land two, a reasonable person would say, maybe I'm the problem here, and would have fun even hooking that many fish.
Nick
If we do a dozen or so hookups on a half-day trip, we call that a nice little morning. Whatever our conversion rate was on that dozen, you know, depends on the things we already talked about. But, you know, we've never had a day of steelhead guided trip where someone didn't put one in the net. Oh, really? Never had a day where someone didn't. Now, I wish I could tell you that every now and then that didn't mean that I'm pushing a half day trip an extra hour, you know, to really try to really try to get someone one in the net. Um, but every one of our guide trips has been successful in putting a fish in the net. So that that's maybe a better barometer. Oh yeah.
Katie
That that's like way better than I thought. I thought that it wouldn't be that uncommon to get skunked.
Nick
No, but I truly I'll hang with people until we get one.
Katie
Okay. Yeah. Well, at this point you've got a street going, you kind of have to, I mean, you're going to be there all night one time.
Nick
I don't, I don't take too kindly to the steelhead beating us. So we'll, we'll pound them into submission, you know, after a while, but you know, a really typical trip for beginners, especially because that's what so many of our trips are, are either beginning fly fishers or beginning steelhead anglers. We're talking for a half day trip. You put two, three, four in the net. You know, you've had a nice little morning because that's probably 75 inches of fish, you know? So that's, you've had a nice little morning and now obviously on full day trips that you can call it double, you know, maybe it doubles a little bit. But what's so fun about steelhead is it's just this giant gamble with the weather, with the weather and the crowds. And if you just have one of those days where the stars align and in fishing, you have those, whether you're going for bluegill, whether you're going for musky, whether you're going for steelhead, whatever. if you have a day where the stars align, I mean, you can put just some extraordinary beatdowns on fish that just, I mean, it will immediately catapults to the best day of fishing you've ever had in your life. You know, we had, I had a couple from Kentucky this spring in Ohio, and in two days we put 55 fish in the net. Oh my God. That's way more than I thought. Yeah, it was special. You know, it was special. I'd love to hop on every media platform I can and say this is our average, you know, so book your date for 2022 soon. You know, it was just nothing short of a beat down, but it was just like the stars aligned. The fish cooperated. They really picked up on the techniques and, you know, were on it right away. We ran into more bald eagles than guys in our two days of fishing. You know, it was just like one of those things where just everything lined up. And, you know, whenever you have one of those days with trout, you remember it. And it's like, wow, that was really cool. Whenever you have one of those days with steelhead, you say this could have potentially just ruined me for life.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, it goes back to that issue of if someone catches their first fish and it's 24 inch fish, How are they going to be happy with catching a brook trout after that, even though for somebody else, a brook trout is a trophy, even by the way it looks. And I'm not sure if I would have as much fun afterward if I caught 55. I mean, I know it was over two days with two people, but still, I feel like if I go out for steelhead, I kind of want to catch about three to five on my first trip out because then I think I would get the bug and really want to come back and try to get more than that the next time. I'm not sure if I'd want like 20.
Nick
I actually think there is a sweet spot, you know, where you catch enough so that it wets your appetite and you're like, this is really cool. But I still like hiking up to that mountain stream and catching five inch brookies. Right. You know, there's a limit. And I'll tell you, it happens to me as a guide where it takes me a minute after steelhead season to really get fired up about 10 inch trout, just because I'm in that mode where if we catch an 18 inch, 20 inch steelhead, I'm like, oh, that's just a little one. you know, we'll get a picture of the next one. And now all of a sudden, you know, it takes me a second to recalibrate and bring that, bring that fired upness for trout, because I've just been staring at the steelhead for the last six months, you know, and my brain's just in the mode where anything less than 24, you know, we'll get a picture of the next one.
Katie
You know, I've gotten mad at myself about something similar to that before where, actually it happened up in Wyoming where we're going again in actually like two or three days but the fish are big enough up there and plentiful enough up there that last time we were up there on day three or four I remember looking down at my net and I had like a 18 or 19 inch rainbow in there and thinking like just a tiny one and I'm like this is like the bigger the biggest thing I catch in Colorado like most years
Nick
you get spoiled so fast you know you adapt very quickly yeah it you know we we do see that on trips too where it's like all of a sudden I have someone downstream waving me off that they don't need the net and it's like hold up you know that's like a 21 inch fish and two hours ago you'd never held a fly rod you know but it's like if we've caught a couple already and they're really nice fish all of a sudden you're like nah you know I'll get it I'll just a picture yeah I'll just shake it free and it's like man you know it's funny how fast to all of us you know that happens happens to all of us you know you get a couple nice fish in the net and all of a sudden all of the ones that on other days would be the best fish of the day are just like meh
Katie
luckily it resets pretty quickly like if I'm catching 20 inch trout one weekend and I take the week off and go the next weekend I'm catching tiny brook trout like I you know I i reset during that week and I'm no longer hung up on the size but if it's in like the same trip I i start to look down on the smaller large fish because they're not as large as the large, large fish.
Nick
Well, and I'll tell you, Steelhead have a way of humbling you about that too. So the 55 fish in two days thing is certainly not the norm. There are days where you are just grinding your tail off and those fish just aren't eating. You know, it's just really, really, really hard. We like to think that on our guide trips, those days are few and far between, but they do happen every now and then and it's funny because the fish that we're just you know wiggling our rod tip to get them off the fly on other days on the tough days I'm like please god just all we need is like this 18 20 inch steelhead to eat once and I will wade in over my waders to get it in the net you know just so you can make sure yeah let's get one in the net here you know so steelhead have a funny way of bringing you back down to earth if you if you get a little too big for your waders after those beat down days.
Katie
As far as the stars aligning, what are you looking for in terms of weather? Like if you could, I know it's a little, maybe a little hard to judge because it goes the whole way from fall to spring. So there's a wide variation in there, I'm sure. But during the peak season, what are, what are you hoping for weather wise in order to get the best run and what really shuts them down?
Nick
Me personally, I want to see 45 mile an hour winds coming right off the lake, blasting snow, shut down the interstates coming in and out of Erie. I mean, just brutal, miserable conditions. The worst that it can possibly be, the better.
Katie
Is that for crowds or the fish feeding or both?
Nick
Yep. And I know that sounds, my version of what our perfect day of steelheading is, and a lot of our guests might not exactly line up, because admittedly, that scenario I just ascribed probably isn't the most enjoyable day to be standing out on the water. But I just want the weather to be nasty to push the crowds down. That's a big part of why we don't run trips up there in October is because everybody can go fish when it's 65 and sunny and the leaves haven't changed color yet. And, you know, all the fair weather folks are still out. Bring on the worst weather that Lake can produce. And that's the day I want to be out there for the fish though. You know, cause they can be tricky on those crazy barometric pressure, jump days and cold fronts and whatever else. The fish really like after the rain, when the streams are still holding quite a bit of flow, but you've crested and you're coming back down the other side, you know, they really, really like that when that stream is on the rise. So if you're fishing through the rain in a given day, that turns them off, that turns them off because, you know, they have a brain, the size of a pea. Um, whenever they feel that happening, they kind of switch into migration mode and less feed mode. So when they feel those streams starting to come up and that water starting to rise from the rain, that's whenever they're moving upstream, that's whenever they're on the move and they're definitely harder to catch when they're in migration mode rather than hold and feed mode.
Katie
Is that an instinct thing? Like they're like, I've got enough water in the stream right now to make some forward progress? Or do you know why?
Nick
I think so. You know, I think it's just because those rain events and those high water events in Pennsylvania specifically are so fleeting that it's like one that when that happens, they have to take advantage. You know, they just have to take advantage because it might be seven, 10 days until they have another high water event where they can move further upstream. So whenever they do feel that coming on, they haul, they haul upstream and they're hard to catch. But then once they feel that water crest and start to come back down the other side, then they start to think in terms of, all right, well, I better start hunkering down here, finding a nice little holding spot, you know, where I'll be happy and safe. And once they start to settle in after they've moved in on a run, that's when it's on fire. You know, if you can hit that falling water level before it flatlines, you know, because our streams, they run off in a hurry. They blow out in a hurry and then they run off in a hurry. So it's really tough to catch that backside of the water coming down. But if you can't catch it, that's pretty tremendous because the water has a little bit of clarity issues, you know, so the fish can't see you. It's just, you know, that's really when we got our stars aligning, you know, in the perfect world of stream conditions, lesser guys, maybe, and fish that want to feed.
Katie
Do your techniques change at all between a rising river and a falling river? Or is it just, you're using the same thing, but it's just harder to do when the river's going up?
Nick
That's probably, you know, the latter is probably more so the case. rig wise technique wise we're really simple you know I've written a few articles in a couple places about how blue collar our our steelhead fishing is you know and in Ohio and new York the streams are big enough that some guys can swing some flies if they want to but every one of our trips every day from the start of the season to the end of the season runs nymph rigs runs nymph rigs under an indicator under an indicator you know we're running two nymphs you know for trout some of our nymph rigs will have three flies but three flies for steelhead can just be a bit much you know we we don't we don't want to have more out there than we need because in the fight of the fish it can get a little hectic netting the fish can get hectic or you'll just foul hook them by accident because they're huge you know so three flies can be a bit much but almost every one of our rigs we're throwing under an indicator two nymphs we got some split shot over top that you know and it's really kind of just put on your hard hat and go to work salt of the earth type of fishing the secret technique for steelhead is find them you know really it's it's find them because we get so many trips of people that say I went up and fished on my own and all I did was walk up and down Elk Creek, up and down Walnut Creek, up and down 20 mile Creek. Some of the big names in PA, I walked up and down all day and didn't see a fish. I didn't see a fish because the stream's 20 feet wide and clear and they're two feet. So I know I didn't see a fish and that that's the name of the game is you got to find them. And that's really where the guide trip, you know, not to, not to plug here. Um, but that's really where the guide trip comes into play because we are on the water every single day. You know, we're really in tune to where those fish are going. The streams change from year to year with high water and ice jams that break apart, you know, and all sorts of things. Holes change, you know, from year to year. So finding those new spots, finding where those fish are holding is so darn critical because that's the best technique that you can find is just knowing where the fish are. If you can find the fish and they're in a spot that's conducive to get to, it's just a matter of time. You know, you don't need some secret sauce fly, some secret rig. You know, it's just repetition. If you find the fish and just beat them down, they're going to eat. You know, they're going to eat. You just have to find what they're after that day. Um, you know, and there probably are some rigging techniques that we do that are, you know, a little more of a competitive advantage to the typical angler up there. Um, but finding them is just so critical, you know, and once you do that, you'll figure out the flies eventually, you know, you'll figure all that stuff out and run into them.
Katie
I'm sure that you being on the water every day can kind of almost pattern them. Like if you see them in one place one day, they're either going to be there or a little bit farther up the next day, I assume. That's like, you know, you can kind of keep track on a macro scale of where they kind of are sitting in the system.
Nick
Certainly. You know, we have we have several spots that we call our barometer holes, actually, because we will go there weekly after a trip. You know, if we ever have a random day off, we will go to those spots periodically and just go look and see and say, OK, that barometer hole one on November 15th, there was 10 fish. Well, then two weeks later, there was 50 fish. Well, three weeks later, there was five fish. So we can track where the bulk of the run is going to be just based on trying to keep tabs on a couple holes on different streams at different parts of the stream to see where are most of those fish at right now. If it rained a lot in between the last time we checked a hole, well, how many are there now? Does that mean that more came in and are now there in that stretch? Or did most of those fish move upstream and are they out of here?
Katie
And regarding flies, I know you mentioned these are pretty much all nymph rigs, but how does this compare to setting up a nymph rig for trout? I guess in fly selection is what I mean. Are we talking the same nymphs, but in larger sizes or completely different nymphs? What are you throwing in the end?
Nick
Usually with steelhead, it's eggs, eggs, and then some more eggs. And then if you have any more eggs, throw those on too. that's what catches you most your fish but we throw some crayfish imitations we throw some stone flies the only real bug life that can be relied upon in those streams up there they're they're pretty they're pretty devoid of strong insect activity but there's some caddis some caddis and some midges so we're actually throwing some flies that are pretty darn small you know it's not out of the question to be running, you know, a size 18, 20 rainbow warrior, copper ribbed RS2, you know, some of the stuff that we would be throwing for trout in the same sizes, just because in terms of matching the hatch for whatever bug life is there. That's kind of what you got to do now where that changes just a bit are those really early season trips. When the fresh fish are fresh in from the lake, you can throw some streamers. Um, you can imitate some of the forage fish that are out in the lake, Lake Erie Emerald shiners specifically are probably the most common, the most popular. Um, so you can get a little bit of streamer action if you get those hot fish that are right in from the lake, because that's what they're eating out in the lake. Once they get into the stream, once they're in the stream for an elongated period of time, they don't have schools of bait fish, you know, to snack on. So that's whenever you go a little more to the nymph rigs and just based on the timing of our trips. That's why we're all nymph rigs. Now you might say through that whole thing, I never mentioned what produces the eggs. Instinctively, the steelhead come in in the fall because they're going to try to be eating salmon eggs because the salmon would be spawning before the steelhead.
Katie
It's like a deep seated instinct, not something that is actually relevant for the area they're in now.
Nick
Correct. It's kind of bizarre because we're matching the hatch in terms of what the fish want to be eating, but not what's actually available to them. New York is a little different where they actually do have salmon runs. Pennsylvania and Ohio do not. They've tried it numerous times to have pink salmon, cohoes, other kinds of salmon take hold, and it's just never worked. It's just never worked. So Pennsylvania and Ohio don't have any salmon, But the steelhead want to be eating salmon eggs. So that's why we're throwing so many egg patterns, single eggs, sucker spawn, that sort of thing. Or, you know, if you're if it's your thing, beads are all the rage. They've found their way here back east. So, you know, whatever you're using to imitate those eggs. You know, those fish really key on those big time because not because they're there, but because that's what they should be eating. The only exception to that is in the spring, whenever the suckers run in from Lake Erie and then start to spawn. And there actually are some eggs in the stream for the fish to eat.
Katie
I wonder how long it would take for that to breed out of their instinct. I wonder if this is so ingrained that it wouldn't come out. Because if they're not eating real eggs there, then you'd think, well, eventually they would adapt and learn a new feeding strategy. But I wonder if, you know, the number of, this is me going out on a limb here, but the number of crowds of people that are throwing eggs, they're probably under the impression that there are eggs coming down because they probably see thousands of egg flies coming down every day. And in their mind, they're like, oh, these are all real, you know.
Nick
Yeah, that's the Great Lakes version of our shadow cast.
Katie
Yeah, yeah, you're like chumming the water with flies.
Nick
Everybody throw an orange sucker spawn on this day, and we're just going to make those fish think that there are just piles of orange eggs everywhere.
Katie
Make an egg hatch.
Nick
You know, if our fish had a stronger natural reproduction rate, I'm sure that would be something that would happen. But I think the issue is our natural reproduction is bad. It's bad, bad.
Katie
They're all just stocked, basically.
Nick
You know, I've seen some estimates out there that maybe on the high end, maybe 10% of the PA steelhead are wild fish.
Katie
Wild being, they've been like, how long have they been there? They're just.
Nick
Wild, wild meaning just that in the springtime, whenever the steelhead spawn, because the steelhead will try to spawn, you know, in spring. But they just, it just doesn't, it doesn't work very well. So most of our fish come from smolt stockings. The Fish Commission stocks fish when there may be four or five, six inches in the streams. Then they'll run out into Lake Erie for a few years before they come back in. In terms of a wild fish returning, so those fish that came in to spawn were successful and, you know, that fish made it to maturity. We don't have a lot of gravel habitat conducive for spawning. And the, I want to be careful how I word it here, the agencies that could do something about that. I choose to just encourage folks to get out there and go fish. So the gravel that we do have is just crushed by anglers. You know, I mean, there are certain spots where you can see fish actively on reds and guys just walk right through it. Or guys are standing in the middle of reds to fish other reds. So there's, there's very, there's no, there's nothing from a management or conservation level to protect the few spawning areas that we do have, and they are few. So whenever you don't have very much spawning habitat to begin with, and the little that you do is then just trampled to death by anglers, it's just not a good, it's not a good equation to have a lot of wild fish around.
Katie
Okay, so wild in this case is just meaning was born in the river, even if that parent steelhead was stocked fish.
Nick
The parent in our scenario here, the parents would have been stocked fish that successfully reproduced. So the yearling, the fry, would be a stream-bred fish.
Katie
Okay, so there's probably a lot of staggering generations of like, this fish is wild, but its parent might have been stalked, and then it might not ever reproduce again. There's random generations of wild fish within these populations.
Nick
Okay. We're not talking about 10% of the fish being wild, and then spawning within that 10%. And then those 10% of the fish that have spawned, their offspring coming back to be... It's like a lineage. Yeah, right. It's not a lineage. It's a staggered is probably a good way to put it where most of the wild fish, their parents are both stocked just by a miracle that their spawning efforts worked and the fish made it to maturity.
Katie
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, is there what if what if I not asked that I should? Oh, I guess let's cover quickly on like rods and gear. Like what what weight rods are you using? I assume this is just like a typical floating line if you're just running indicator nymph rigs, but walk me through kind of your typical gear setup.
Nick
Yeah, typical, you know, we are running floating lines. Our go-to bread and butter rod reel setup is a 10 foot seven weight. On the PA streams, our fish are a little smaller than both New York and Ohio. So in Pennsylvania, you can probably get away with a nine and a half foot six weight. But what we find is so often your technique is just high stick nymphing. So having that little bit extra reach with the rod helps you, helps you reach out there a little more, hold a little more line off the water, get a little bit more of a drag free drift. So we're talking 10 foot, seven weight. And the critical aspect of the entire gear setup is having a reel that won't freeze. You know, if you're going to spend money on one part of the entire steelhead setup, do it on the reel. Do it on the reel because nothing, nothing is more heartbreaking than freezing your tail off all day long, really trying to find that winner steelhead, hooking it. It makes one run and your rod tip just bows straight down and the line snaps because your reel is just a ball of ice. You know, spend some money, get a nice reel that's not going to freeze. Be diligent about that. You know, check that reel every now and then. Make sure, you know, the line hasn't frozen in there. But, and then also with those, not to go on a little gear, gear shtick here, but those nicer reels also allow you to set the drag a little better. And the drag is critically important to make sure that is set appropriately for those fish too loose and they'll just spool you with one run downstream too tight and 10 seconds into the fight we'll be retying trying to break down what just happened
Katie
okay so maybe the reel plays a bit a bit more of an important role than what someone who's only fished for trout might be used to
Nick
yeah if you're a trout fisherman in Pennsylvania by and large your reel just holds the line I mean
Katie
It's the same here for a lot of it.
Nick
Yeah, it is just a place to hold the line in a circle. You know, but with steelhead, so darn important. So darn important. You can land steelhead on any number of rods. You know, you don't need to go out and buy, you know, the new whatever for a thousand bucks. You know, you can make do with a lot of rods if they're in the right size range. Like I said, nine and a half foot, six weight, 10 foot, seven weight, probably about perfect. But make sure your reel is ready to go.
Katie
Okay. Well, I know you have to get going soon, but I just wanted to end with, like, is there anything that I should have asked that I didn't because I wouldn't know to ask it? Like something that if someone had only fished for trout and they came out there that they might just be caught off guard by?
Nick
I think the biggest change for people are the crowds. You know, and I know we've kind of mentioned them halfway tongue in cheek up to this point. But on a serious note, it is a real thing. I mean, there are intense, intense crowds, especially on weekends, especially when the weather is nice, of people trying to fish for these fish. So we try to do this on guide trips, but I try to do it when I'm fishing on my own to just be courteous to each other. You know, I mean, you hear stories of fistfights and, you know, just really, it almost feels silly to bring it, you know, to say it out loud that you're fistfighting over a fish. But I mean, it's just some really nasty stuff goes on up there because people just aren't decent to each other. You know, just be ready that if you go in knowing fishing etiquette, that most everyone else around you is not going to know it. And maybe they do know it and they're ignoring it, but maybe it's they don't know it, you know, and they're not intentionally trying to high hole you. You know, they just saw you fishing there and thought 10 yards upstream of you was a good spot for them to go.
Katie
Is there such thing as high holding when the crowds are that bad? Like, I kind of just picture everybody just standing there shoulder to shoulder and they're not being, well, you know, place to go.
Nick
Most of the spots that, you know, there are sections of the stream where it is like that, you know, where it looks more like those rivers in Alaska, you know, where they're just standing shoulder to shoulder. But there's a large section of the streams that is more, you got to walk a little bit. You know, you're going to park, you're going to walk a quarter mile, half a mile, but those ones even get crowded. And the reason why the crowds are a thing is because so much of the streams just do not hold fish. You know, those fish are in spots A, B, C, and D on a quarter mile of water. And there are zero fish not in spots A, B, C, and D.
Katie
I see. So it's like everyone has to kind of cluster. Like if you, one of those toys where you have the magnet that goes across and it picks up the iron. Oh, like an Etch-A-Sketch. And it's like those fish holes are holding people like little flakes of iron to the magnet where they have to go right there. There's no point in going anywhere else.
Nick
They certainly are. And now, you know, there are exceptions to that, of course, where there's riffle sections that'll hold a few, you know, but if you're talking the really productive holes, there are going to be other guys around you. So I always just tell people, go in knowing we're going to fish around other people today. And if it becomes a problem, we are going to err on the side of etiquette. We will just reel in. We'll wish them good luck and we'll go find somewhere else to fish. You know, because it's not worth making your day uncomfortable confronting someone about something that they either, one, know they're doing and don't care, or two, maybe they just legitimately don't know. So you confronting them in an angry manner to something that they don't even know they're doing, you know, it's just going to elicit a defensive response. You know, and it's steelhead fishing can probably be some sort of experiment in the human psyche and sociology, you know, because it's just, I mean, you really just kind of have to go in knowing we're going to be nice to other anglers, even if they're not nice to us. For the love of God, please don't litter. You know, just please, please, please don't litter. So much of the eerie trips are open at the courtesy of the landowner. And every, every, every single year, new stretches of river get posted because of how many people are up there fishing and leaving junk. You know, if I was a landowner up there, I don't blame them one bit for posting it because people just toss their junk everywhere. You know, so I tell folks, bring a little plastic bag with you. Any other junk you see, just pick it up, throw it in there, even if it's not yours. You know, just because we'd like to fish there again. We'd like to fish there again sometime. And I know that's a very common conservation type shtick, you know, pack it in, pack it out, you know, leave no trace. We're not talking buzzwords here. We're talking real sections of streams get posted every year because landowners have enough of the crowds just dumping trash everywhere.
Katie
It's such an easy thing not to do. Like, it's so easy not to throw your stuff on the ground.
Nick
Possibly the easiest thing to not do ever.
Katie
Right. That's how I feel. It's like I've seen people throw things out their car window. I'm like, it would be easier for you to throw it on the floor of your car than it was to roll down your window and get it out there with enough force it didn't blow back in. You took the harder route in throwing that out your cart window.
Nick
Here's this slim gym packet that I could just put in my wader pocket that's at arm level. But you know what? I'd rather just leave it on the ground.
Katie
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt for small things like that. Because I've had that happen to me where a wrapper gets blown out of something like a pocket. And I don't realize it until it's 50 yards downstream and lays on the water. I've had that happen. And I'm sure a lot of it is intentional. But I like to try to err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt for small wrappers. Because I'm just like, I've definitely been there. But I don't understand the bottles and things like that.
Nick
Who knew you were such the Slim Jim enthusiast?
Katie
Well, that is what I usually use to describe myself.
Nick
Well, that's very high brow. I think you'd fit in just fine on our blue collar, you know, salt to the earth, put on your hard hat and go to work streams up here. You know, armed with Slim Jims. Yeah, you could definitely do some damage getting some landowner permission if you roll up to their house with pockets full of Slim Jims. That's a good first step. It's a good look. Yeah, that's what you should have asked me actually was how to get landowner permission. And then I could have just deferred to you and said, bring your Slim Jims, then you're good.
Katie
What else do I need? Do I need like a can of Skoal or how else do I fit in on these rivers?
Nick
Yeah, maybe a six-pack of Yuengling would probably be good. Yeah, maybe Skull's pretty high-end. I don't know, maybe Longhorn or Grizzly, whatever the cheaper brand is. You don't want those landowners thinking that you're...
Katie
Think you're better than they are.
Nick
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to be a man or woman of the people here. You can't be flaunting your wealth by cans of Skoal.
Katie
Yeah, especially if you already have a fly rod, then adding something else highbrow is just going to put you way over the top.
Nick
Yeah. If you run into some rural Erie PA landowner and you have Skoal, they'll tell you to head on back down 79 South to Pittsburgh.
Katie
All right. Well, to wrap up, Nick, you already mentioned Wildwood once, but go ahead and plug, plug all your stuff again. Where can people find you? Where can people reach out if they want to take a trip? Sounds like probably next year if they're, if they're looking to take one, but regardless
Nick
we book up pretty darn quick, you know, In fact, we have folks booking up for December already right now, which feels like we were just there in December, but we're already looking ahead. You can find us online. Our website is wildwoodoutfitterspa.com. We've got tons of info on there about our trips, pricing, what to expect on your trip, what we provide, the whole nine yards, and also some contact info on there if you want a more specific look at what your day on the water with us would look like. Instagram, we've got a lot of steelhead pictures on there to scroll through on a warm summer day and make you along for the days of fall, winter, and spring ahead. And that's at Wildwood Outfitters PA. Including right now, we're actually doing our catch of the week. Catch of the week through trout season here. So if you like some trout content, too, you'll get a little bit of that. If you scroll back further, then we've got our steelhead pictures. but we try to keep that pretty up to date with what's going on on our trips and some of the cooler catches of the week.
Katie
And so for Mother's Day, I assume you're going to have to post a picture of your wife and call her the catch of the week as your tribute.
Nick
Well, hopefully this doesn't air before then or my cover's blown, you know, so.
Katie
Well, it'll be the Thursday after Mother's Day, so you're good.
Nick
Yeah. Well, in that case, I was actually planning on doing that. But yes, yes, that will certainly be. And then we'll have to look ahead to Christmas and then try to get, you know, a fly in a stocking, you know, with our son on there. You know, just we'll pander, pander for the likes, for sure.
Katie
Of course. Well, that's really what it's all about, isn't it?
Nick
Yeah, it is for sure.
Katie
All right. Well, on that note, I can let you get going. But thanks for coming back for round two of this.
Nick
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Katie
All right, guys, thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com, for all episodes and show notes. And also, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me, and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening, and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.
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