Ep 46: Trout Fishing and the Blair Witch Project, with Michael Williams
Michael C. Williams is a passionate fly fisherman and also starred in one of my favorite horror films, the Blair Witch Project. I was so excited when I learned this, and even more so when he agreed to take the time to speak with me. The bulk of this episode is geared toward his love of fishing. We discuss the need for closures on certain waterways for the benefit of the fish, his desire to pick up Euro-nymphing in the upcoming season, how his father introduced him to fishing and also brought him back to it later in life, and his local Croton watershed. Near the end, I got to pepper him with questions about the Blair Witch Project, and he gave me some awesome tidbits about the movie as a whole and the fishing scenes at the start of the movie.
Michael is also starring in the upcoming psychological thriller film, Grafton.
Blog: At Last to Wade the River
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 46 with Michael Williams on trout fishing and the Blair witch project. well I usually just start with a little background so I'd love to just hear how you got your start in fishing and then separately I'll probably follow up with how you got into acting and if if those are at all related or two separate parts of your life
Michael
absolutely so I grew up very close to the kensico reservoir I still exclude you know not exclusively but mainly fish what's called the Croton Watershed System. And that's seven different reservoirs that come from the Catskills and funnel all the way through this reservoir system into New York City and lower New York. And it's the entire population's drinking water. So we've got some amazing reservoirs, some amazing, amazing fisheries, and lots of streams that connect those fisheries. But I started and cut my teeth, you know, with a worm and a spinning rod. Still will do that a lot. Actually, still use spinning rods on the Kensico Reservoir, now from a John boat, but started by fishing for rock bass when I was a kid. And, you know, just would, anytime I had an opportunity to get on my banana seat bike and have that rod in my hand and ride down that street and jump, I mean, I would spend hours and still do doing it. So I was fortunate to grow up on a big giant reservoir that held many species and still does a fish. And I still fish it to this day.
Katie
Now, was this something that your parents got you into? Or did you just have some sort of, you know, innate interest in this?
Michael
You know, fair enough. I have eight brothers and sisters. And my dad was a fisherman. And I think maybe my sister Lisa and I were the only ones to really take it up. Me more than anybody in the family. But yeah, my dad really started me out. He used to take me down to that reservoir when I was too small to go on my own. I remember we used to camp in Kent, Connecticut. It was like a little, it was, you know, a family campsite and we'd rent a camper. And I think my first memory of catching a fish was he set me up down on this little pond slash lake and there were lily pads and reeds everywhere. so I'm sure he baited the hook with a rubber worm and he must have done it weedlessly because he just said throw it on top of the lolly pads and just drag it back slowly so he went away went back up to the camper and I was there for a while for a while and all of a sudden I I'll never forget this was must be why I love watching fish come to the top this largemouth bass came up and slammed this worm and I hooked this fish reeled it in somehow but now I have absolutely no idea what to do right I've got the fish on the hook and I'm running up to the camper while the fish is still sitting kind of half in and half out of the water connected to this old little push button you know zebco and I ran up dad dad dad come down you gotta help me you gotta help me I got this fish you got it was a big fish I got a picture of it somewhere and it was a great memory so yeah he definitely had a lot to do with it my dad for sure especially fly fishing
Katie
oh yeah I would like to hear how you transitioned from spin gear to fly gear, but I did want to just mention that I think it's funny that you brought up that once you got it hooked, you weren't sure what to do, because that's something I see with a lot of new fly fishermen, where everyone goes over the cast and maybe the hook set, but then people just forget to mention what to do once you get it hooked, and watching people panic when they're like, I'm not really sure what to do. I've got line in one hand, rod in the other, and I'm just stuck here. I'm going to just walk backwards until the fish is dragged on shore.
Michael
Yeah, you know, and it's really important, right? So I was lucky because it was a large mouth bass and they're tough fish, warm water fish. My dad ran down, we unhooked it and threw it back and he taught me that you could grab them by the mouth, right? Yeah, with trout, we have to be very delicate, right? We're supposed to not take them out of the water for too long at all, if at all. And, you know, wet our hands and the whole thing. You're right, the release is a big deal. You're right. You have to teach people the proper release, especially now with what we know. So, you know, growing up, it was like catch and cook almost fly fishing. Even I used to go with my dad. Now it's so different. And for, you know, for good reason, you know.
Katie
So do you or what got you into fly fishing then? That transition, I feel like it's something that, you know, not a lot of people make it to if they start off spin fishing. So what kind of helped you make that transition?
Michael
Yeah. So, again, my father, you know, he saw that I had like a vested interest in fishing. We used to go to Old Saber, Connecticut for a family vacation every year. And I would just have my flip flops, my bathing suit and a spin rod. And I would stand on the end of that. All the rest of the family would be in the water playing, going to the ice cream man. I would be on the point of that jetty from sun up to sun down casting spoons for snappers, snapper blues. And he just saw this kid is addicted to fishing. So by the time I was, I think, 14, I got the invite, right? It was a big deal. He says, I'm going up to my annual Catskills, Beaverkill River fly fishing weekend with my guys from work. And you were invited. Actually, it was a Christmas gift. He wrote me a letter on Christmas. And I opened this thing on Christmas. Like, I can't believe I'm going to go fly fishing with my dad on this famed river in June. So I guess he waited until I was the appropriate age to be around poker and and beer drinking. And, you know, not that I was doing that, but I remember he would put, you know, say, all right, go to bed now. Go to bed in this tiny little cabin on the beaver kill. And the guys would be up all hours of the night. But they taught me how to fish. He taught me how to fly fish. And and the guys that he hung out with taught me how to fly fish. And and that was it. I absolutely adored it from from the get go. So, you know, my dad actually passed away when I was 17. So from 14 to 17, I fly fished a lot each year with him and then on my own in local streams. And then he died and I just I just kind of stopped. In fact, I just kind of stopped fishing for a long time. And it wasn't really until my kids were born where I was like, you know what? I remember fly fishing. And I went to my mother's house when she still had it and unpacked all of my dad's old fly gear and just tried to figure out how to do it. So I still feel like I'm new, even though I started as a kid, I took so many years up until I was in my thirties where I didn't fish at all. Um, and, my wife got me a John boat for Christmas when my kids were born on the Kensico reservoir. Uh, we had moved out to California and all the way back to New York. And, and then I just started with, with the fishing again. So, yeah, it's pretty, you know, full circle kind of stuff, But it's probably been 10 solid years since I've been back to fly fishing, maybe seven or eight. And I still feel like a novice. I mean, I just came from a trip right now. I just got skunked for a couple hours out on the stream. We're still winter fishing out here. And it's like, oh, when's the heat coming? When's the warmth?
Katie
I know. I don't know. And we've got kind of a similar thing here where it's warm right now. It just happens to be – I'm in Colorado, so we get occasional days in the 60s or 70s. And it's been in the 60s for the past couple days. And I'm like, ooh, I should kind of maybe try to get out. But then once you get up into the mountains, it's still everything's iced over and everything. Oh, I bet. Yeah, I bet. So when you took that kind of hiatus from fishing, was that because, you know, not having your dad around, just you didn't have the motivation to go out by yourself? Or was it sort of like a grief thing where, you know, you associated with your dad and with him not there, it was almost more painful to go out than not?
Michael
Yeah, it was definitely a little bit of both, but definitely some grief. I just had no interest. It just reminded me of him. We, you know, I was young when he died. He was young to die. It caused a lot of pain and suffering in my and my family. There was a lot of other stuff going on. So I just moved away from at some point. I just kind of moved away from anything that reminded me of just him or family in general. It was painful. Interestingly, he used to take me to a place called the Hansel and Gretel cabins on the Beaverkill River River. And, like I said, my, my kids were born. I had moved back to New York. I was moving furniture cause I was an actor and I was driving a truck. I was driving a straight truck. And, this trip, I got to deliver something took me up route 17 out West in New York. It's just about two, two, between two and three hours from where I am. And I just had a hankering to see the old place. So I pulled up this off the side of route 17, this giant straight truck. And I ran down this little Hill. It said, you know, private property, no trespassing. And I said, I'm going to take a gamble here. I went down and there was like somebody who was taking care of the land who was living on the property. And these empty cabins were just kind of rotting out. And he's, what are you doing here? I said, I'm really sorry. I just had to see the place. I haven't seen it in, you know, at that point, probably 15 years. My dad used to take me here and he passed away. And I just wanted to take a look. He said, no problem. So I got to talking to the guy and I said, hey, what are the chances you'd let me rent a place overnight? He's like, well, I'm not supposed to do that. It's not my place, but sure. If you don't tell anybody, no problem. So that spring, that was probably in the fall, that spring, I called the guy up and he was good to his word. And I went up there. I had no idea what I was doing. I got my dad's old fly rod, just me. And I bought a couple of streamers. I think I actually had a Mickey Finn and I didn't even know it was a streamer. I was just, you know, doing what I remembered, you know, going back and forth with the arm and flailing like crazy. And it was like a Friday night. It was a private property river and this Mickey, Mickey Finn just floating along on top and a fish came up and ate it. It was like a 17 inch Brown, unbelievable. And, and that was it. I was hooked again. So it became less painful all of a sudden, you know, I'm sure. Yeah. Like just a little bit of action will reinvigorate you. Absolutely. You know, and now and now I spend time with my dad on the river. I mean, every time I'm out there, there's not a time I'm not out there that I don't think of him. And now I get to share it with my daughter and my son. So they know what it means to me. And maybe it won't mean the same to them at some point, but they enjoy it. They come out with me once in a while. And I definitely think my dad is he's around every bend. I always say he's right around that bend. You know?
Katie
Yeah, that was going to be my next question is, have you kind of pass that on to your kids? Have they taken it up? Or do you think they're mostly doing it for you at this point? Or are they individually interested in it?
Michael
They definitely are interested in it. I don't push them. I think I have tried to when they were younger. And I think I had to learn to let them kind of find it. But I said to my son a few weeks ago, hey, do you want to go up to the Farmington in Connecticut for a weekend in May and camp and fish? And he was like, awesome. Yes. So, you know, he really likes it. He's got his own fly rod and we just got him a vest. So he's excited. He's 15. And my daughter comes with me too, locally. She, you know, through the pandemic, it was a nice way to be safe and spend time together. They've had a fly rod in their hands, you know, for their whole lives. So they do enjoy it. It's not their passion, but they do enjoy it.
Katie
Now, did you start them off on a fly rod?
Michael
I started them off with the little push button. I remember my son had a little push button Lightning McQueen spinning rod and he caught a big bass as a six year old off the John boat. So not always a fly rod, but, you know, that's really tough. A fly rod is tough for a kid.
Katie
Yeah, for sure.
Michael
Sometimes you see these these guys who they start their kids really early and we don't give kids enough credit. They can figure things out much more than we think they can. So probably in hindsight, at three or four, I probably could have stuck a fly rod in their hand and now they'd be casting better than me, which is not hard to do, by the way.
Katie
You know, it's weird, too. It's like kind of on a kid by kid basis. I've met some, you know, some teenagers who are 15 or 16 who still act like a fly rod is unwieldy and they have no idea what to do with it. And then I've also met kids who are seven or eight who it just comes naturally to them to bring it forward and back nice and nice and smoothly. And, you know, they're probably not casting 60 feet, but they can get a pretty clean cast out to 20 or 30 feet, which is, you know, all you need in a lot of places.
Michael
Absolutely. You know, and to your point, I, you know, I don't think they're naturals as far as fly casting, nor do I think I was. I started them off with nymphs and an indicator, right? Just because you're just flipping and you're just, you know, following it with the rod tip, flip, follow the rod tip. And they've had success with that. And then last, I mean, not that they haven't caused fish on dries, but last summer I really did start to say, all right, now this is a cat is hatch. Let's put a cat is on and let's work on this. And they both got pretty good at it. So, yeah, so I'm excited for the spring here. Looking forward to them coming out with me again.
Katie
For sure. Same here. So do you, I assume, fish mostly for trout these days, it sounds like, as opposed to what you started on, which sounded like maybe more bass, as you said, rock bass and largemouth bass. Do you still fish for those warm water species at all, or have you transitioned mostly over to trout now?
Michael
You know, I really do target trout. Like I was saying before, I have a John boat on the Kensico Reservoir. They don't allow a trolling motor, so it's great. It's just you're rowing around. There's over 100 feet in depth places. So I target lake trout a lot with a jig or with saw bellies, live bait. And a lake trout to me is, you know, you get a seven, eight pound lake trout, it's feeding my family twice. It's delicious. And they were stocked at some point where they were overstocked. I know you guys out west have this huge lake trout problem. Now they only stock browns, but the lake trout are plentiful. My rule is if I'm going to freeze it, I won't keep it. If I'm going to eat it within that day, I will keep the fish. Other than that, I target brown trout. I always get the occasional, you know, hard fight and smallie in those waters, and they're a lot of fun. I don't necessarily target them anymore. But as far as the streams, it's all it's all brown and rainbow and dreaming of going out west one day and get myself one of those beautiful cutthroat that you have out there.
Katie
But that's all catch and release. So you haven't been out here yet?
Michael
I have not. I have not been out there and I'm dying to go. The whole scene out there. Right. So there's some there's some rivers that are just amazing and phenomenal here that are very well known. It's a great, I'm very blessed to have a great fishery around me, but yeah, it's certainly not the West, right? Montana, Colorado, Wyoming. I've been out West and I've, I've camped and been to Yellowstone and all that, but I, that was when I wasn't fishing. Right. So now I'm like, damn, man, I wish I had a fly rod on my hand.
Katie
Well, it's funny you mentioned that because I grew up on the East coast and I grew up fishing, but not fly fishing. And I didn't really pick that up until I came out here. So I'm kind of in the opposite boat where I've been kind of itching to get back east to try fly fishing there for the first time and go check out all those things. You know, I got to fish for as a kid, but with a spin rod. So I have to switch places and try out each other's areas.
Michael
Where'd you go? Where'd you grow up back east?
Katie
I was in western Pennsylvania. So there's a lot of smallmouth, pike and walleye.
Michael
Yeah, there's some and then there's some really famous Pennsylvania creeks now for fly fishing. But if you ever come back and you're in the, you know, the tri-state area, I'm happy to take you around the Croton, but you're going to want to hit the beaver kill and the Delaware. That Delaware system is, you know, I'm just cutting my teeth still there. That's a tremendous fishery.
Katie
Yeah, those are some names I'm familiar with just from, you know, I listen to like the Orvis podcast and stuff, and they're always talking about those watersheds. So those are definitely on my list. And Pennsylvania, I do feel like I miss an opportunity because I hear about all the great, especially in like central Pennsylvania or north central Pennsylvania. I just hear amazing stuff about that. I'm like, man, I didn't even really trout fish when I was there, let alone fly fish for him. So yeah, but likewise, if you ever end up out here, let me know and I'll get you some cutthroats for sure.
Michael
I'm definitely looking you up, no doubt about it.
Katie
Well, I know you mentioned the, was it the Croton watershed? Is your kind of home water? And is this the watershed that has a whole bunch of reservoirs that are all kind of connected together?
Michael
That's correct. That is right.
Katie
Now is this, because I know out here we have a lot of like reservoir with a tailwater into the next reservoir, another tailwater. Are they all connected in a linear succession like that or is this kind of a conglomeration and they all kind of flow together at some point later on?
Michael
It is. It's tailwater to tailwater. There's always a dam and then there's a tailwater and then there's a release that hopefully they're not botching up too badly. Last summer was tough on the fishery because we just didn't have any water, you know, from like May through August. It was it was bad here. So this winter was fortunate. We had a lot of snow and we're right now getting into the rainy season. So we need it, you know. So generally it's managed well. But last summer, everything was at a trickle and everything got much warmer than it usually like faster than it usually does. But yeah, so all tailwaters, they're small, they're small streams. It's all small stream fishing. But sometimes you get that reservoir run brown that comes up to spawn or just even in the early season after the rain with a streamer. There's some really good fish to be had. We're very fortunate.
Katie
So does that mean that you get to fish year round if you want to with kind of all these tailwaters?
Michael
Yeah, there's one tailwater. The east branch of the Croton River is open all year, at least the upper section of it. Everything else closes from October 15th through April 1st. However, New York state is looking to change that and make it a year round fishery. I'm not a big fan. I wrote a letter stating as much. I guess there's arguments either way, but, you know, we're doing a stream cleanup coming up here, March 27th that, you know, I just have a ragtag group of Facebook folks that I started fly fishing the Croton watershed recently. And part of that is because I want people to start taking care of the streams more than maybe we have been. And everybody says, well, you know, it's not the fly fishermen doing that. I'm like, you know what? Maybe it is some of us. Right. Maybe some of us are sloppy, like you and I said. So we're doing a cleanup of the stream. And my my fear is if they open these streams year round, they're already they're already littered too much. And I'm concerned with all the garbage. And then they're poached. I'm sure you can empathize with that. I mean, poaching is everywhere, but, you know, it's been pretty bad the last five years with the poaching. So, you know, if they close a stream, you're not allowed on it. Right. But if it's open all year, there's not a lot of enforcement. It's just the budget is spread too thin from the Department of Environmental Protection. There's not a lot of enforcement. I don't blame them. It's a budgetary thing. The guys are great. The guys and gals that police the waters. But you run into them like once every couple of years and there's so much water for them to cover. So my point is, if you're going to open a stream all year and you're not going to police it during the season, it gets all the garbage builds up in the poaching. If you just shut it down for the way you've been doing it, they can't go poach because you're not even allowed on the property. It's like it almost looks like, wait a minute. Why is somebody on that property at all? Why is a car park there in the offseason? You know, you wouldn't do that. But now I'm worried that they're going to just kind of overcook this thing. But we'll see. I think it's going to happen.
Katie
That's something I forget about a lot of the states. It seems like especially back east have a closed season. I remember Pennsylvania had a closed season. I'm pretty sure my friends in Minnesota and Wisconsin deal with closed seasons. But out here it's year-round. And the fish do get hit year-round. And I don't notice as much of the trash. I mean, we do have trash out here, obviously. But I more think of it as a, you know, the fish don't really get a break at any point. The fish are just getting hit year round and especially with the boom in fly fishing. I agree with you that I think that some fly fishermen are guilty of having an impact on the fishery. We like to act like it's all the bait anglers, but even if we're not jamming a hook down to their stomachs, we're still yanking them out of the water and letting them flop around for photos. So I don't think that we're free of blame there. And I think having a couple of months closed right in the middle of the winter when most people aren't fishing, Some people are still getting out, but maybe having at least a couple waterways closed wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing to give the fish a little bit of a break.
Michael
I totally agree because the fish get hammered. And then then the argument is, well, let's close it in the warm months. And that would probably be make more sense. Right. For the fish. Yeah. Yeah. For the fish. Right. There's the fishing for trout. The water is 72 degrees, you know, right away. You hook them, they're dead. And people don't really unless you really know about it, you know, which we all claim to. There are definitely the casual fishermen who don't know that and are going to go throw a spoon in the water and, you know, or a jig and just rip it back and catch a bunch of trout. You know, we're not talking wild fish, though we have some here for sure. So I get that it's put and take some of these rivers, but the fish do hold over and they do thrive a little bit. You know, the Farmington is a good example, right? So the Farmington is a fishery that gets pounded all year. But I'm not sure it's, it always remains cold because it's a tailwater. And that's a, that's a great river back here in Connecticut. If you ever get back here, I'm not sure if they should do like a, Hey, you know, from July 15th through September 1st, shut it down. At least a section of it. They do that on the beaver kill. They, they do a thermal refuge area. It's great. It's like, Hey, it's hot. These fish in this area, you can't fish at all. So it shuts the stream down for at least a solid month. So there's definitely conversation about that. That's worth having.
Katie
One thing we do out here that I'm really curious about the efficacy of it is that we do voluntary closures in the middle of the summer on some waterways where there's basically signs posted all along the popular stretches that say, you know, this water is under voluntary closure. So you're not, it's not illegal for you to fish it, but they basically have signs that inform you that the water's a little too hot to really, for the fish to handle. And that they recommend that you don't fish this, go fish elsewhere or fish between, you know, the, or fishing like the early morning hours, say like up until nine or 10 AM before the water really gets warm for the day. And, I wonder how well that works because I know that whenever I see one of those signs, you know, I wouldn't want to fish it anyway, knowing that, but there's definitely a part of me too. that's like, well, I also wouldn't want to be seen fishing this, you know, because I'd be very self-conscious that someone else is going to run up and yell at me. And I wonder if a little bit of shame like that does keep a lot of people off the water, even though it's not necessarily illegal. So I wonder if something like that would be a good approach in more places to have these voluntary closures where you're risking, you know, social shame if you go out there and fish during the middle of the day.
Michael
I think that's a wonderful thing that you guys do out there and a great idea. And yeah, for you, somebody like you and I who know better, it would be a walk of shame. Right. But there's also something about the education of it. Right. So a dad and his kid, they just want to go fishing. It's July 15th. They don't know that, well, it's over 70 degrees and we don't know what we want. They just want to have a day of fishing. But if that signage was there, it might give people pause like, oh, wow, I don't want to harm these fish. All right, let's go fish for bass. Let's go to a pond. Let's do something different. Right. You're absolutely right. There's no harm in having a voluntary closure. I actually really love that idea. And now you got me thinking. I'd love to start implementing something like that. I used to carry a stream thermometer when I was fishing in Croton. But now I know. You just know. You put your hand in there. You're like, nope, it's not working. Or depending on the date and the water and how much rain we've had and the releases. And I watch the flows online. So under a certain flow and the temperatures and the air are hot, you know that water is going to be hot.
Katie
So do your tailwaters there coming out of these reservoirs get pretty warm? Because I know we've got a couple of bottom release dams here that, because it's coming out of the bottom of a, I don't know how many hundred feet deep reservoir, it's basically frigid to the touch year round. Warm enough in the winter not to freeze, but really, really cold in the summertime. And so those ones are got A-OK to fish year round. I don't know if yours are the same way, or if you maybe have top release dams that are pretty warm.
Michael
We have a little of both. Okay. So we have the bottom release and we have the top release. And sometimes the one with the bottom release, it's somehow it's jammed up or broken or they can't release any water. So it's just whatever water is in there. And then it gets it just gets warmed up. So you really do have to pay attention to all that stuff. But, you know, to your point, the most popular one is a top water release. And that water definitely gets too warm, but it's open all year and people don't know. So it's interesting. I will say this year I'm watching water come over the top of the dam. And it's exciting because I remember fishing all last year through the winter and spring, and we just never got enough water for it to kind of come over. Just felt like we were in a drought for so long. So I'm anticipating a solid year with, you know, hopefully more water than we had last year. And the snow helps. And I just, like I said, I just got off the water a couple hours ago. And just from, we had a couple of warmer days. So all the snow melted. We had like a foot, foot and a half of snow. And that water, two weeks ago, I went when the snow was on the ground. Water was probably 40. Today, it was probably 33. I was freezing the whole time. And that's probably why I got skunked. At least I'll tell myself that. I always got to find a reason that's not you. I couldn't hit him on the nose, I guess.
Katie
So what time of year do you generally start to get out a little bit more? Like I know for us, we know you can fish all winter, but there's a period, you know, kind of late May, early June where runoff kind of ruins it for a little bit. You know, unless you're really willing to fish chocolate milk water. But what's it like for you? Are you like what time of year do you kind of start fishing? Is there any sort of runoff lull?
Michael
And then summertime hits? You know, not like you have the mountains like that we don't have here. But definitely as I go out west in western New York to those, you know, beaver kill, willow we mock. I'll go in April, but it's going to be cold. There's going to be some snow. It's not going to be as active. Once the Hendrickson's hit, which probably mid-April, it starts to really kind of perk up. As far as the local waters, same kind of timeline. I'll start going now because there's a couple of streams that have really good stonefly hatches once it gets to be like 40, 45 degrees. This river I fished today, two weeks ago, I caught a bunch on top on stonefly. And today, nothing. I saw a couple. So to answer your question, sometime, you know, March 1st-ish. But it really ramps up mid-April and then goes through, you know, I'd say mid-June. May is a great time. You do get a lot of water in May. Sometimes you get blown out. But I'd like to think that May and early June are the best times. And then our fall fishing is fantastic here too. You know, Isoniki has come up to the Delaware in the summer, and then they really start to dominate that system and bluing olives in the fall up there. I mean, it's just, it's a good long season. Guys do go all winter. I did a little more winter fishing this year because there's not as much going on. And I don't really like it. I'm finding again, because I used to do it stopped doing it and this year I'm like well this is why I stopped doing it it's it's you know I like being outside but I think I'll just start going for hikes because I do like to be outdoors I don't necessarily always need to be fishing but yeah
Katie
I'm kind of the same way I I do a lot of skiing in the winter and I'll occasionally go fishing but I kind of just reserve it and just say you know what I get cold so easily that I'll go out on a nice day in the winter but I don't need to go out just for the sake of it just say I went I don't do like once a week or
Michael
I think I went four times between December 1st and, you know, March 1st.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. Now I know you've mentioned, like you, tossed some streamers when you were visiting that cabin and I've also mentioned dry flies. Do you have a preferred technique? I know obviously whatever's catching fish probably, but if you could only fish, you know, one way for the rest of your life, do you have a preferred way?
Michael
Yeah. I mean, I really, I'm a sucker for, for dry. So I did see a couple of fish come to the top today sporadically, right? Not consistently. It's freezing out. It's cold. I see a couple of stone flies, not as many as a couple of weeks ago. Well, now I'm like, well, now I'm fishing to that fish. I had, you know, nymphs on. I'm like, get the nymphs off. I want to catch this fish on top. Then I do that for an hour. And I'm like, I'm almost stubborn to the point where like, well, let me go find another rising fish. So I'm just stomping around like blindly casting a dry fly. When I look, I look down the street and there's two guys nymph and picking up fish. So I, as if I see a fish come to the top, man, I'm a sucker. I will, that one fish, they say 90% feet on underneath, right? I just need that 1% to come up and then I'm stuck with a dry fly. Um, no, I do nymph a lot. I do use streamers, but definitely my preferred is the dry fly. It's just because it's so exciting to get a fish on top. If you can get a 20 inch fish on the top, I mean, that's just, there's just nothing like it in my opinion. you know yeah it's it's cool to dredge them up from the bottom I've had that happen it's like an earthquake down there and you think you you think you hooked like a log and then all of a sudden it's moving but man when they when they crush that sulfur on top or something it's just so exciting
Katie
there is definitely like a unique fun to each one like you said almost feeling like you got hung up on a log or rock and then find out it's a fish or a streamer when they hit so hard and pull it back but but I agree I'm I'm the same way as you where if I see a single fish rise I'm like well I'm done nymphing for the rest of the day you know and and I'll do the same and walk around looking for more fish to rise even if it was a fluke I'm convinced that oh they're rising now
Michael
yeah I don't know about you but I actually think people are intimidated by dry fly fishing a little bit not everybody and I'm not trying to be snobby about it because I'm by no means a purist I will use a waltz worm and I'll use you know a mop fly whatever I am not a purist but I find that there's a lot of guys that are hooked they just that's it they just nymph all year and they could be fish rising all around them and it's like I don't really know how to cast right I don't they're not willing to I i think you always have to be willing to just just suck at something you know I mean you know just try it and and make a mess of it and and you know like half the time I'm still doing that and I've done it for a while right I don't know why that I definitely feel like there's some nymph fishermen are just like well I can't do that drive fly stuff I don't really understand it. I don't know how to cast. I don't know if you've had that experience or not.
Katie
I feel like I know a couple people that I would, you know, maybe say that they're hesitant to use dry flies. But it's funny because I feel the opposite. I felt like dry flies came very easily to me because it's very straightforward. You put the, you know, the fly has to be floating. You have to have a drag free drift and you have to hook the fish when it comes up to take it. But there's nothing really apart from that. Whereas nymphing, I remember being very intimidated to really get into nymphing because I was like, how deep should they be? How far between each fly should I have? How much weight? Where should the indicator be? And I feel like there were so many more variables that even though I think now nymphing is probably a more reliable way for me to catch fish. For a while, I felt very intimidated by how to set up a rig because I was like, surely I'm doing something wrong. Like there's, you know, how was, how was I supposed to guess all this stuff and get it right? So I think dry fly is way more straightforward. Like there's not really much to mess up apart from, is it drifting well or is it sinking? And yeah, that's about it.
Michael
Yeah, you could add some tippet and have a longer leader. I agree. Like, you know, even now when I'm indicator nymphing, which is mostly the kind of nymphing I do. And I'm really, I've been doing a lot of research on tight lining or euronymphing. And I'm looking to get into that a lot more this year. I've never really truly done it. But you're right. Like, it's like, well, one and a half times the water depth plus the, you know, how much weight now that split shots too big. Now it's too small. And what flies am I, you got tandem flies and you got to turn it over. and you're always getting hung up. It just seems like a lot and you could be screwing it up. You're right. You put a drag-free drift over a trout with a decent fly that somewhat seems like the fly, you've got a good chance of that fish taking your fly.
Katie
And what I always loved is the 1.5 times the water depth, but your fly passes over about six different water depths in a single drift. Like which one am I supposed to use?
Michael
That's so true. How about, sorry, the tight-line nymphing, do you do that?
Katie
uh I have I have but I wouldn't say your own nymphing like I've I have fished without an indicator and just kind of but I usually do it when I can see a fish I don't do it blindly too much and just go for the feel it'll be if I see a fish that's kind of you know going left and right and opening its mouth I'll occasionally tight line in front of it and then you know watch it take the fly and set the hook I've thought about getting more into it but I'm not that interested in the euro nymphing that involves like basically no fly line like just a leader route at the end of your rod. That doesn't interest me as much because I like the line manipulation and the casting and everything. So I think I'd be more inclined to just throw a nymph without an indicator on my normal setup than I would be to really get deep into your own nymph thing. But is that something that interests you to go all in?
Michael
Yeah, it does. And it's interesting that you said that because there was a solid year where I just took the indicator off and just watched the end of the fly line and just grew very confident with that method and it was everything else was the same like tandem rig two flies that maybe a split shot in the middle or above them and I just started getting really good at that and then winter came and I came back to fly fishing and I i always use an indicator now but I don't know in the on the east coast particularly in like the Farmington river area and even like our local trout unlimited they just had a guest who's out West exclusively, just talk about this 10 foot three-way, like you said, monofilament almost set up and the, what's the indicator, cider, the cider material. It's like this whole setup. And, you know, they just say it's so effective and you feel every single tiny tick along the bottom. You're really kind of almost guiding the flies. So I'm, I'm, I'm interested in any new methods in any way that I can get better. I would love to be able to do all of it. I'm never going to be an expert at any of it. So why not try them all? Sure. So yeah, I'm going to probably by the spring, I'm probably going to pick up a setup. What I won't do though, what I see guys do, which I used to try to do too, but it would drive me nuts, is carry two fly rods with me, right? So if I got a nine foot five weight and I also have to carry a 10 foot three weight, because depending on if I'm throwing a dry or a nymph, that would just drive me out of my mind. Because if you wait all the way downstream, Now I got to go back and get my rod or God forbid, leave it there. Somebody takes it, you know?
Katie
Yeah. I'm the same way. I've got a friend who has like a, it's almost like something that goes on his belt that holds a fly rod out, kind of hangs out the back, which seems like it'd be fine if you're fishing like a meadow or something, but I fish a lot of, you know, willow choked small streams. And I'm just like, I was, I'm going to break this. And it's just too much. So I would rather, I'd rather have one rod that does everything pretty well than have, you have to carry three different rods in a single day and switch out. I kind of feel the same way.
Michael
I'm curious because I just said I was a sucker for a rising fish. So if I decide I'm going to go Euro-nymphing today and that's it, I'm all in. That's going to be the day I'm not even bringing my 9'5 weight. And now I see rising fish, it's going to drive me crazy.
Katie
Right. You know, I feel like my equivalent of what you just described is swinging flies. That's something that I would like to get. And like I said, I'm not anti-Euro-Nymphing. I would definitely give it a try, and I would like to be proficient in tightlining. I just probably wouldn't really go all gear specific for it. But in the same way that you kind of want to be proficient in everything in case the opportunity arises, that's how I feel about swinging flies and specifically swinging the traditional wet flies. I think that would be a fun thing to get into because that and even swinging streamers are probably my least confident styles of fishing when I go out. If I want to do it, I should probably just commit to it and be like, I'm not fishing any other way. Because I'll go out, swing flies for 10 minutes, see a fish rise, and I'm like, well, I'm done with this. And it's too easy to give up and switch to a different technique.
Michael
You know, that's a great point. And I think at least as far as the setup goes, right, you can use your regular dry fly setup to swing wet flies. It's funny. I remember coming back into fly fishing, again, somewhere around 10 years ago. And everybody's nymphing, nymphing, nymphing. And I was like, I don't really even understand what that is. Because when I grew up, my dad was either fishing a dry or a wet. They would be swinging wets up on the beaver kill. They didn't ever say the word nymph or indicator. I remember them like, what are we doing? I'm going to throw, I'm going to swing wets or I'm going to, they were fishing on top. I don't know. That was, you know, they were fishing in the seventies and eighties. So I don't know when indicator nymphing became this big kind of craze. It's certainly effective, but people have kind of forgotten the wet fly fishing a little bit. You know, there are definitely a couple of guys on this side of the country that are really adept at it and are guides. And, you know, they write articles about it. It's pretty neat. There's a couple of guys right around here locally. But I don't know. I don't know the first thing about it. And if my dad were still alive, I would probably be more proficient in that.
Katie
Yeah, it's one of those things that I don't think it is ever going to be. You know how sometimes you go out and you want to fish dry flies, but it's just not the day. Like it's not going to happen. And I don't get the impression that for swinging wet flies, there's a day where it's like that's the only way that's going to work. But it just seems like a fun alternative to when you don't want to watch an indicator and you kind of want to feel the tug. But maybe it's not really a great day for streamers or these fish are tiny and, you know, just doesn't seem ideal. It kind of seems like a way to fish streamers without having to fish a streamer, honestly.
Michael
Yeah, absolutely. And if you think about it, it's like a cross between a streamer and almost like an emerger because they're close to the surface. On the Housatonic here in Connecticut, the local shop there said, here's a couple of wet flies. Here's how you do it. This is what you want to do is like October. I won't forget it. Go to this run, stand at the head of the run, cast a cross, let it come down and let it just drift across that run. And man, I caught a couple of fish. You know, and so that that's my experience with wet fly fishing. And my brother in law started getting into it. He swears by it. Yeah, I people say it's more effective than dry fly fishing when they're hitting the top because it's like an emerger kind of a thing.
Katie
Yeah, I know, you know, in theory, how to tell when a fish is taking a dry fly versus an emerger or, you know, a done versus an emerger, I guess, if you're talking about the real thing. But I still feel like I almost forget to check when I'm fishing. I'll just see ripples and I'm like, oh, dry flies. And it doesn't cross my mind that I should be double checking that they're actually taking dry flies. So I often go straight to a dry and then don't catch anything and then kind of go back like, oh, backtracking. Got to go a little bit under the surface there.
Michael
Yeah, fair. And I cheat. I'll put the gun on top and then I'll do 18 inches to the, you know, I think about the sulfurs, right? Because I'm like, well, there's sulfurs everywhere. They're eating sulfurs. I think they're eating them on the top. But to your point, maybe I'm wrong. Let's see. And man, nine out of 10, they'll eat that emerger.
Katie
Really? Okay.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
The last thing I wanted to kind of ask you directly about fishing is that you brought up that you are kind of getting into fly fishing writing. And I wanted to just kind of hear about that. Is it blog posts, magazine articles, books? What kind of writing are you trying to get into?
Michael
Yeah, the hope would be at some point to be published, but really just more essays on the sport, not tactical here's how to stuff, more personal and relationship stuff and just being relationship between myself and the water, the fish, and really the people, right? So just short stories and the like kind of creative writing. It's a really nice outlet. So like I just started tying flies this winter. And when I mean, I'm sitting at this table where in my basement where I attempted to create a fly tying table. And I've got some zebra midges and some some squirmy wormies. Right. So that's where I'm at so far. But, you know, people like that's how they spend their winters. right? Because we all miss, we all miss fishing. Well, I love to write about it. I love I'll veg on these podcasts and YouTube and any good content. And I think the written word is kind of, kind of, maybe it's not dying, but it's, it's certainly formatted in a different way. So I've always loved like John Gierach. I mean, he's a hero of mine. I just can't get enough of him. I just recently read his most recent book and I drove out to New Jersey to the fly convention a couple years ago and got to actually meet him it was like he's like a hero to me I know you're out in Colorado so he's he's a celebrity to me like you know he was he he's so great because he's gracious and he kind of well first of all he's a phenomenal writer but he's just not pretentious at all
Katie
right yes I feel the same way I feel like when you read him you get the impression that he is also aware of the pretentious people
Michael
yeah exactly he's just his writing is accessible right it makes sense for everybody. You could be writing about a cup of coffee on the riverbank and you're like, man, I'm there with you. Right. You know, so that that's my interest. So, so hopefully to be continued, I have, I actually just got an email right before I jumped on here and I don't want to share who it's from because they just said, I want to publish you. And I'm like, holy crap. I really, I wrote him back. Holy that's what I wrote him. And it's a, it's a, it's a pretty darn good publication. It's a very good publication. And I've submitted twice over the last three or four months. And this person likes my writing and I think it's going to get published. I'm sorry to be so coy about it, but I just, I just got the email. If we got on here at seven, I got the email at 620.
Katie
That's awesome. Yeah, I'm excited. Now, do you have any like writing, just personal writing that you have like a website that you share things on?
Michael
I have a blog spot and I haven't used it in a long time. I started it again in 2013. There's probably a bunch of posts through probably 2016 or 17, but then my kids got older with sports and the plays and there's definitely been, you know, don't get me wrong. I always find windows to fish, but raising kids through the middle years, their families become much busier. I found that when they were young, they were either home, you know, so I could go fishing or it wasn't a whole lot going on. When they hit like middle school and high school, it just became like nonstop. So I, anyway, I'm making an excuse for why I hadn't written on the, on the blog, but it is there and I'll intend to continue there. It's, it's wadetherever.blogspot.com. And I've actually have a screenplay that I wrote many years ago and continue to tweak. And it's called At Last to Wade the River. And that is a personalized fiction story about the Beaverkill River and fathers and sons and alcoholism. And you know, it's a relationship piece. And maybe someday that'll come to fruition. I actually used to live in Los Angeles and had the actor Charles Durning read the script. And he's a phenomenal, just a phenomenal character actor and a World War II hero. He's since passed away, but he, there's an old man in the script who's really the lead. He's like an old, old cantankerous guy who lives on the river, upstate New York. And he read for that part, he loved it. And so I got some bites on it and then I shied away from it. Life happens. So there's a lot of things in the works, you know, a lot of things in the works.
Katie
Well, that's awesome. Well, and hopefully that pulls through and congratulations on your first, it sounds like, accepted essay.
Michael
Yeah, I mean, this person said, yeah, I'm going to use this one this spring and this one this summer. I said, holy ****.
Katie
You have to send me links when it comes out. Yeah, I definitely will.
Michael
And I'll share, I'll tell you who it is when we're not recording.
Katie
Okay, sounds good. And, you know, it's interesting because I feel like fly fishing goes well with creative outlets. You know, there's a lot of, you know, musician combined with fly fishing or artist, painter, combined with fly fishing, but I think you're the first actor combined with fly fishing that I've talked to. And I do want to get into more of the acting in a little bit, but have you, apart from this screenplay you've written, has there been any really crossover between your passion for fishing and acting? Does one inspire the other? Do you get inspiration when you're on the water for acting, or are they kind of completely separate aspects of your life?
Michael
Well, they aren't exactly separate. What I learned as a young actor who was training to be an actor was that it was really about listening. It was watching, literally, this is what they say, watch and listen. So that sounds simple, right? Watch and listen. But not too many people are watching and listening in life. They're mostly concerned about the next task. We get stuck in our heads. We get we do, you know, like you're on autopilot when you're headed to work. You're on autopilot when you got to pay the bills. You're on autopilot when you got to pick up the groceries. And it's always the next, the next, the next. So being in the moment is the actor's best tool. You can be in the moment and really watch and listen to your scene partner and your surroundings. Now you're really in the scene and it's happening. It's happening for you in the same time it's happening for the audience. That's kind of the magic. Well, when I'm on the river, it's the only time. Well, one of the only times in life, right, that I'm truly in the moment and I'm watching and listening and I'm part of something that's bigger than me. So maybe I'm getting a little too artistic about it, but it's it's damn true. You know, I mean, if I'm out there, I forget to pee. I forget to eat. I don't know what's going on. I'm just so focused on outside of myself. I'm not thinking about the bills and work and it's just all disappears. Right. Maybe I think about my dad. I think about how grateful I am for my wife and my kids. Like these things come up. It's not pointed that that's what I'm thinking about, but it's all part of this gratitude. And when I'm out there, so there's definitely a connection between the two and maybe the skill sets blend over.
Katie
Well, it's something, too, that I feel like even people who aren't actively trying to escape, you know, the grind of a typical day. The fish will often remind you that you have to be in the moment because, you know, I've found myself zoning out at times and kind of going through autopilot. Maybe you haven't gotten a bite in a long time and you're just kind of cast into the same spot, hoping something takes. And then something does take and you weren't paying attention and you miss it because you weren't paying attention. And it's a quick wake up call of like, oh, I wasn't here. You know, if I had been here, I would have capitalized on that. And I didn't.
Michael
Yeah. Well said, Katie. Absolutely well said. Speaking of, you know, being sort of shocked into, oh my gosh, there's a fish. And we were talking about wet flies. Like how many times have you had that nymph on or even a dry that's submerged? And you're just sort of, you got your rod like tucked under your arm and you're just trying to take a few steps and your line is sitting out there. The fly is definitely not dragging. It's definitely dragging, right? It's the most bizarro look and the fish just attacks it. It's amazing. Like you try all this preparation, all this stuff for a drag free drift. Now I'm just yanking my damn line through the water and boom, fish on. Yep.
Katie
I have always maintained that fish are well aware of whether you're watching and when you're not or when you're not paying attention, that they're like, now's the time. I used to guide a little bit and I always told people that because, you know, someone first time out, it might be the first time out west seeing mountains for the first time. So, you know, you tell them to cast dry fly out, they're on a lake, the dry fly is going to sit there for a minute or so before they cast again. And, you know, inevitably they're looking up and looking around. And I always had to tell them the fish are going to know when you stop paying attention to that dry fly. And that's going to be the moment. And you won't feel it. So you are going to have no idea that the fish took it. You will have absolutely no idea. And you'll continue on with your day and never have known that it happened. Because the fish just have a sixth sense.
Michael
So you're dry fly fishing on a lake and they're coming up to the top?
Katie
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's probably about 80% of the cutthroats I catch out here are dry flies on a lake. I do fish streams for them occasionally, but it's a lot of alpine lake fishing.
Michael
Love it. I love it. Yeah, I know you're backwoods and you're always hiking into places and stuff, which is, you know, something that I do attempt to do. But like as far as my local fishing, there's not a lot of hiking in. I mean, I hike as far away from cars as I can, and I'm pretty successful because everybody's pretty darn lazy, to be honest. you probably see out there too but geez just just hike through the woods a little bit but that remote those remote lakes and you know that talk about youtube I watch those guys and gals who are just like up there for two nights in the middle of nowhere with a fly rod a little tiny tent to pop up stove and a and a pistol to make sure they're okay wow that is cool you're right that I I've never never caught a fish on top on a lake that that has got to be so exciting
Katie
that's funny because I that's the very first fish I ever caught on a fly was on the surface on a lake because it's just it makes sense it's very easy to teach you know because you don't have to focus you know you're teaching somebody how to fly fish and you don't have to worry about currents and drag-free drifts you just have to be like if your fly is floating and not moving you're good to go yeah if you make it out here we'll have to go up and and hit some of those alpine lakes
Michael
I Would love that. Would love that. I'm in.
Katie
So moving on to arguably why I wanted to talk to you in the first place. I had to I had to get through, you know, an hour of actual fishing talk before I approached the elephant in the room, which is that you were in one of my all time favorite movies, The Blur Witch Project. And I want to kind of like I said, I'm going to ask you some questions afterward just selfishly. Absolutely. you brought up a good point that there, there is a little bit of fishing and a lot of outdoors in that movie. Yeah. So, Oh, go ahead. Do you have, if you have something to say, go ahead and start.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate it. And you know what, if Blair Witch is my ticket to getting on your show, then so be it. I'm cool with that. So, you know, we're obviously, you know, people probably don't care or know about the movie as much anymore. And that's fine. If you do that, you might know that it was all improvised. We would get notes in 35 millimeter film canisters each night, kind of before we went to sleep in the woods in a tent. We'd open up the notes and it would be, you know, Mike, you're pissed off at Heather because she wanted to go north and make sure she goes west. So give you like it would give you some objective to obtain through your character that you couldn't share with the other characters. But also along the way, they planted actors. So sometimes when we were interviewing people, we interviewed people not knowing in a village if they were actors that had been hired or if they were just regular people. They didn't have signs, right? So you could generally tell who the actors were. And sometimes the actors were so darn good that you thought they were a legit townsperson because it was all improv for them, too. So you'd say like, hey, we're about to go into the woods. Have you heard of this thing called the Blair Witch? And they say, oh, if you recall, there's a mom and the baby and the baby's putting. Yes. That was not an actor. And that was like, whoa, I could tell you're not an actor. And why is your baby hushing you when every time the name Blair Witch comes up? So it's really kind of cool.
Katie
I was actually really freaked out by that scene. I was like, I don't know if they taught this, what appears to be a two-year-old, how to act. Or if this kid is just haunted by the movie. I don't know. But I was really impressed by that scene. I was like, you know, something worked here.
Michael
Well, I'll tell you, that was one of those signs where you kind of, you knew you were doing something special, right? It felt like a little bit of punk rock or grunge, like right in the thick of like, we're making this movie bare bones and it's going to be cool. Right. And then something like that happens. You're like, wow, that is this is going to be really neat. Never did I ever in a million years think it would do what it did. But you certainly felt like you were part of something special. So anyway, we'd have actors and we'd have regular townspeople. We didn't know the difference between the two. Heather sees a couple of fishermen as we're ready to go into the woods. And they're really good actors because they seem very, very natural. I don't know if you agree or not, but they were very natural. And I'm, Heather's interviewing them and I'm watching them because I have to have the boom to do the sound because everything we shot, we took sound for anything on that 16 millimeter camera we actually shot and we did sound and all that. So anyhow, I'm watching these guys fish and I'm like, these guys are actors. There's no question in my mind because I'm looking at their equipment and they're supposed to be Creek fishermen and they're fishing with like, this looks like 20 pound test. They're fishing with a bobber with like a spoon, you know, and they keep throwing it up into like the shallows and ripping it down, like reeling it like nothing to, I knew fishing at that point you know nothing that they were doing it looks fine on film but if you're up close watching them you're like these guys have no idea what they're doing they're just right somebody gave them a fishing pole from their garage you know that they used out in the salt and these guys are chucking it up through the stream so I knew I said I know these are planted planted actors and the only reason I knew is because of the equipment they were using and how they were using it
Katie
so did they turn out to be planted actors?
Michael
They were. They were, in fact, planted actors, yeah. And I tell that story. I tell that to one of the guys I know. His name is Ed Swanson. He's a great guy. And I say, you were a great actor, but I knew you were acting because you couldn't fish first.
Katie
That's funny because I was kind of expecting the end of that to be. And it turned out they were fishing. And it was just this creek where, you know, you catch trout on spoons on bobbers. Like, it's like the local secret or something. Yeah.
Michael
I mean, it's like one or the other. Like, you're going to have a bobber with a worm under it, or you're going to have a spoon and you're going to rip it through. Right. But no, it was just the most. And the test was the funniest part. Like, you know, this giant reel with this 20 pound test is terrible.
Katie
Well, you're right that it doesn't really come through in the movie because, you know, I was obviously kind of drawn to that scene. You know, like, oh, this is the the fishing scene. And I actually watched the movie again on Friday night to just to get ready for this, because I was like, you know, in case he references anything that I don't remember, I should watch it again. And you're right. The fishing is such a background part of that scene that you just basically see them, you know, occasionally casually throw a cast in the water, but you don't really see anything.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. You don't see you don't know exactly what they're what they're doing. Yeah. It's not the focal point. Right. So for me, actually watching from wherever I was, just really looking at what are they doing? This this this is not real. And again, like it was just kind of cool that that's how I knew that they were plants. You know, I just knew it right then and there. It was like, these guys are plants. And maybe it wasn't a spoon under a bobber. Maybe it was a bobber with whatever it was. It made no sense. Right. But they were just throwing it in there like, yeah, yeah. Well, the witch used to come here and kill kids.
Katie
So who else was a plant? Was Mary Brown a plant? Or she had to be.
Michael
Yeah.
Katie
OK, I figured she had to have been that. If you just found her, that's kind of funny.
Michael
Her name was Patricia Deku and the filmmakers, I was hired as an actor outside of New York, out of a backstage magazine, out of just an open call, like your classic kind of story where you get a thousand people and then somehow you wind up with this part, me and Josh and Heather and I. But Mary Deku answered an ad for a PA, a production assistant. So she shows up to, you know, Ed Sanchez is the director and Dan Myrick. She shows up to like wherever they were hanging out to interview PAs. And they're like, how about you want to be in the movie? Because you're a really interesting lady. And she's like, oh, I can do anything. And so she just went on with this story. And, you know, that was her trailer that she lived in. And she made that little gate with the sticks. I mean, she was brilliant. She was creepy. She was great.
Katie
She was creepy. That's why I was like, this had to have been an actress because just finding like someone like that on the street would be very, I don't know, serendipitous.
Michael
Yeah, yeah. You know, the other guy, he was outside the little, we call them delis in New York. I don't know what you call it, a little convenience store. That guy was very good and he was a plant. He tells the story about Mary Brown. And, but, you know, like, again, we probably interviewed three people in that store until it was like an Easter egg. You finally found the guy you're supposed to interview, but they're not going to tell you you have to go interview this guy. They just tell you, go to the store and start interviewing people. It's pretty neat. Pretty neat theory.
Katie
Now, did you, so I don't know what the audition was like for this, this part, but were you drawn to this movie because it was something you were kind of interested in? I don't know if this fell during the hiatus of your fishing career, but like, did you fish any of the streams in the movie? Did you want to just sleep in a tent and you're like, this is a great avenue for this? Or was this just a, hey, I need a job. I'm a young actor and this is a part and I need to take it.
Michael
Yeah, well, that for sure. Yes. But the ad in Backstage Magazine was improvisational feature film to be shot in a wooded location must be comfortable with improv and camping. I was like, that's me. I don't have to learn a script and I get to sleep in the woods. I'm in, you know. so yeah so it really resonated with me I had studied at SUNY New Paul it's a state school here in New York a really pretty robust theater program and studied to become an actor and we had tons of improv training any scene we ever did that was scripted our professor Bev Brum who was you know rest in peace she was the best she would have us improvise the scenes I don't care if it was Tennessee Williams or you know Eugene O'Neill you improvise the scenes before you ever learn them. So we had a lot of training in that. And then of course the nature stuff, I've always loved it, but I wasn't fishing at the time, but I do remember being on those streams and creeks and wondering, I wonder if there's trout in here. I wonder if the trout are biting, you know? And, and I intend to someday go back there with a fly rod and, and check it out. Cause they looked like pretty cool little creeks.
Katie
Where was it filmed? It was in Maryland. Oh, so it was like basically on location.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Location. Yep. Exactly. Yep. So we got the, we got the backstage ad and we bunch of people answered the bell and I think it was three weeks worth of auditions and the numbers just get dwindling down and dwindling down and then they wound up with us three. So pretty neat.
Katie
Now, you've already answered some of my questions by chance that you did. You did sleep in a tent and you did self-film, it sounds like. Yes. Now, I have to imagine that improvising pure fear like that has to be one of the hardest types of acting out there. Like it's so convincingly like terrifying for you guys that you know I just can't even imagine acting pure fear in a convincing way and you guys did that but you know without even any prompt you're just reacting from each other was that difficult or once you get in that mindset is it easy to just kind of pretend you're the you're in that situation and just react naturally
Michael
yeah you know the beauty of it was that you know we were camping in the woods and we were you know eating a little bit less every day and we were cranky. Obviously you, you know, the directors would come and shake the tent at the middle of the night. So your, your immediate thought was like, Oh God, I'm so tired. I don't want to get up. These guys are pissing me off. And then you go, Nope, it's a witch. Ah, you know, so, you know, you have to forget, you have to sort of suspend reality. Right. And know that, okay, if I don't commit to this, it's going to look really bad. Imagine being like not believing that it was happening, if we didn't believe it was happening, like we were being haunted, the audience would see it from a mile away. So you had to be natural and authentic. And my scene partners, Heather and Josh, were so good that all I had to do is just kind of rely on them again, back to watching and listening, right? And really being in the moment. So, you know, difficult to be simple. And I'll take it as a compliment that you say that I appreciate it. I think the work is difficult because you don't want to overdo it. But the circumstances that they provided for us definitely helped. The fact that we were sleeping in the tent, the fact that we were in a remote area where we never really had any physical contact with anybody. Sometimes you'd wake up and there'd be a jogger running through the state park, you know, like, okay, I got to suspend my disbelief. I didn't see that person. There would be an airplane coming overhead. I don't see that airplane. I got to wait. And then there was just a lot of bad acting that they edited out too.
Katie
Oh, really? I think I read that there was like 20 hours of film and I wasn't sure if that was way more or way less than a scripted movie because I was thinking, well, you know, with any kind of let's say like a fishing film edit. Like I'm sure you're familiar with like the the film tour, the fly fishing film. And, you know, any film that goes in there because they're filming, you know, a fishing trip, you're going to have way, way more footage than what actually gets put in because you're anytime anything interesting is happening. You want to film it in case it's good. But for a scripted movie, I would assume there's kind of a, you know, we know what all the scenes are going to be. We know what the storyline is. And so there's probably some deleted scenes. But in general, I'm sure they're not wasting actors' time filming scenes that aren't going to get put in the movie. But for something like this that's improvised, I wasn't sure if you had like way more extra footage than a normal movie or way less because 20 hours didn't really seem like that much.
Michael
Yeah, well, definitely. There's definitely much more that we shot that didn't get in there. The initial screening was like a two hour and 15 minute movie and it was just too long and too repetitive. I mean, it's pretty repetitive now. You know, it's a lot of arguing. Right. They had to get rid of a lot. Every time we made decisions, we argued because they wanted to create tension. But they had to get rid of a lot of that because the relationships weren't necessarily working that well. So they had 20 hours to figure out what's what's 89 minutes is that makes the most sense. You know, and look, to your point, if you have a film that's from from the script to the can, you might have a lot of footage, but it's going to be footage of the same exact scene. So you're going to cover, you know, two people in a diner from, you know, a master shot. You're going to get an over the shoulder of me and an over shoulder of you and maybe some cool shot. And it's but it's the same dialogue. So and then you'll have 20 takes because, oh, the light went out or somebody went through the scene or. So you might have the amount of footage, but it's the same stuff over and over with with the fishing films or Blair Witch. It's just you just keep shooting, just keep shooting and then we'll put it all together at the end.
Katie
So that's kind of what we did. That's so interesting. Like I said, I'm still just really impressed that you did that because it just seems to me, it seems like it'd be harder to do that than to memorize a script. I know you said you kind of chose it because it didn't have a script.
Michael
But I chose it because it was a job. But if it had a script, I would have done my role. yeah, it was just like, well, easy, easy peasy. I just have to behave and listen and believe in the circumstances that I'm being haunted by a witch in the woods. All right. That sounds fun.
Katie
Now, are you into horror movies separately or is this a kind of a fluke for you?
Michael
I do like horror movies. I'm not like a horror, like a horror buff or a horror geek, but, I do like them, when they're good and scary, they're, there's something about watching horror that, you know, gets your imagination going and then you don't want to go down to your basement or, You know, like my wife hates them. I love them. My daughter loves them. They're pretty cool.
Katie
So I, like I said, I watched it again on Friday to refresh myself. And I made my boyfriend watch it because he had never seen it. And he's not a horror movie person. Not because he's like too scared. He's just like, I just don't get anything from it. And so he kind of like half watched it. He was doing other things, but it was on. And afterward, I asked him what he thought. And he was like, you know what? I was a little pleasantly surprised because I thought there were just going to be witches running around the whole time. And I thought that was going to be like kind of cheesy. But, you know, not seeing anything and just kind of witnessing their fear was actually like, you know, better than I expected. So it was it was that's cool.
Michael
I'm glad you enjoyed it. That's what it is. It's your imagination. It takes the audience's imagination. You never see anything. Right. So it's like, well, what the hell is happening? What really went on? Right.
Katie
I think one of my biggest regrets around that was that I knew it wasn't real the first time I saw it. And even today, like I've probably seen it six or seven times now. And even today, if I watch it, I would not want to go out camping that night. Knowing full well it's fake, you still want to turn extra lights on and stuff afterward. But I really wish I had been able to experience it for the first time, actually thinking it was real. Because I think it would have maybe changed me a little bit. Because I like camping. And if I had seen that thinking it was real, I don't know. Maybe it would have ruined camping for me. So maybe it's good.
Michael
And I've heard that. In fairness, people have come up to me and said, you know, you ruined the outdoors for me. You ruined the camping. I'm sure I should feel great about that yeah the best the best sort of review we ever got was I think it was somebody in rolling stone maybe peter traver he peter travers wrote scary as hell that was it and that was that was great for us but somebody somebody wrote that we did for the woods what steven spielberg did for the water with joss and I was like that is really high praise really high praise and I love jaws so
Katie
I mean I guess the bright side is that your movie probably didn't lead to like the slaughter of sharks everywhere true just the slaughter of imaginary witches well mike we can we can start to wrap up and I do want to hang around for a couple extra minutes afterward but if you just want to share where people can find you I know you have an Instagram and you mentioned maybe a new YouTube account. Go ahead and plug your blog again, which is where anyone wants to find you.
Michael
I appreciate it. I'll try to update the blog. It's got some stuff, like I said, from a few years ago. That's wadetherever.blogspot.com. But mostly what I'm doing nowadays is just having some fun on Instagram and that's Sipping Rises, Sipping Rises on Instagram and Sipping Rises on YouTube. I just started a YouTube channel just for fun. I really get a kick out of watching them. They helped me through the winter so much. And I also think some of them are just really informational and kind. And I think this sport is about sharing knowledge. So while I'm not doing a how-to, I'll say, hey, this is what I'm trying to do. This is my method. These are the flies I'm using today. This is what's going on. And also, you know, hopefully the imagery is nice. And once in a while, I'll hook up with a fish. So the YouTube thing is kind of a new thing and I'm using like a GoPro three and a Mac from like 2010. So I'm enjoying it enough where I'm thinking about up in the game this, this year. But, but the first thing on my list is not a new GoPro. It's going to be that, I think I'm going to hit Orvis up for there. They have a clear water outfit, 10 foot, three weight, $398 for the whole setup. I'm like, you know what? That sounds pretty good. So, so yeah, so sipping rises on Instagram and sipping rises on YouTube and check me out and I'll follow you back and maybe we'll have some fun out there.
Katie
That's awesome. I'll have to check out your YouTube channel because if I were you, I'd be in the same boat. I think I have an old Hero 3 Black GoPro that I haven't touched in years. And I know there's a lot of fly fishing channels out there that are in the same boat as well.
Michael
So yeah, exactly. That's actually a really nice community. Some of these YouTubers that do, they're just, you know, there's they're just giving of information and knowledge and and I think that's what the sport is about people are typically generally pretty kind about sharing knowledge and not being too stuffy about fly fishing I don't think it should be stuffy at all it should be cool and chill you should have an acoustic guitar and a beer once in a while and don't take yourself too seriously you know
Katie
that sounds like the perfect medicine yeah all right mike well we can hop off and chat for a couple of minutes. But again, thank you so much for taking the time talking to somebody who reached out randomly to you and didn't know from Adam. So I really appreciate it.
Michael
I really appreciate it. I've been listening to your podcast too, by the way. It's fantastic. So thanks for having me.
Katie
Great to hear. Thank you. All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Remember to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com for all episodes, show notes, blog posts, everything else. If you've got a minute or two, leave a rating or review on iTunes. And if you're looking for me on social media, you can find me at Fish Untamed on Instagram or under my name, Katie Berger on Go Wild. And that's all for this week, but I'll be back here in two weeks and I'll see you guys then. Bye everybody.
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