Ep 39: Guide and Angler, Alex Ermatinger
Alex Ermatinger and I met just a few hours before sitting down to record this episode, as he passed through town on his way to an antelope hunt. Alex is a hunter, angler, and guide who moves around throughout the year chasing different seasons across the country. In the summer, Alex guides in the Black Canyon of the Gunnison chasing rainbows and browns, including during the legendary salmonfly hatch. He spends his falls in Michigan, helping clients land Chinook salmon to take home for the table. In this episode, we cover a little of everything, from guiding stories to a brief history of Pacific salmon in the Great Lakes.
Website: Tinger Guide Service
Gunnison River guiding: Gunnison River Expeditions
Instagram: @tingerguideservice
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. All right, welcome to episode number 39 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today is a quick one right before the holidays. I sat down with Alex Ermatinger to talk about his seasons guiding on the Gunnison River in the Black Canyon and also back in Michigan for Chinook Salmon. So we can go ahead and hop right in. Here is my chat with Alex Ermatinger. Yeah, so we just met a couple hours ago. And so you guys are on your way out to an antelope hunt right now.
Alex
Yep.
Katie
and did you recently get back from Michigan?
Alex
Yeah I was in Michigan for the month of September.
Katie
Okay so fill me in on what you what your kind of season transition consists of throughout the year.
Alex
Yeah so end of May June July and August I'm in the Black Canyon on the Gunnison River. I'm working for Gunnison River Expeditions. I'm doing a lot of three-day trips through the Black Canyon. Those are really awesome special trips. In September and August, I travel back to Michigan where I have my own little business venture, Tinger Guide Service, where I guide inland rivers for the migratory Chinook or King Salmon there. So that season is about a month long, so I'm there for September. And then in October, I'm back to the Gunnison River where I spend the beginning of October, still guiding, still hitting the end of like the caddis hatches and some of those dry fly hatches, and then head over to Nebraska where I do the big game thing.
Katie
Okay, so is Tinger Guide Service something that you're only doing for a portion of the year? You also work for a separate outfitter?
Alex
Correct, yeah, and the reason that it's only for September is because that's when the king salmon migrate into the rivers to spawn. So we're targeting them in the rivers with eight weight fly rods, and then that's the only time of the river there, or the only time of the year that they are there is during the month of September. So they leave and we leave.
Katie
Now, does that match up with, so I know like next to nothing about salmon fishing. I've never, I've fished for kokanee, I think once or twice in my life. Does that line up with how the salmon run on the West Coast as well? Or is it kind of a completely separate season?
Alex
You know, I think it's pretty similar. I think it's more of a fall run. So there's a fall run of fish over in the Pacific side I think that I think that it probably correlates pretty evenly
Katie
I assume you're guiding clients who like want to keep it keep their salmon take them home and eat them
Alex
yep
Katie
how are you targeting them?
Alex
so it's we're targeting with a fly rod a lot of times we're using a method called chuck and duck so we're we're putting actual split shot on our fly rigs we're fishing maybe eight to ten to twelve foot holes so we're getting short drifts in getting those flies all the way to the bottom of those runs, feeling the bottom, and feeling those fish and setting the hook when we feel the fish. So it's kind of a deep nymphing method.
Katie
Now, are they actually eating?
Alex
You know, we're hooking probably 75% of our fish are hooked in the mouth. You'll catch the occasional fish that's hooked in the tail or the dorsal fin, something like that. You know, when you get concentrations of 100 fish in one hole, you know, you're getting your drift in there and you're feeling something hit your line and you're setting the hook and, you know, you're hoping that that fish is hooked in the mouth. And it usually is, but sometimes.
Katie
Because I think there's a couple like salmon seasons where it's like good luck getting one to even look at your fly. Like the whole point is just to go out and basically snag them to bring them in to eat.
Alex
Right. And in Colorado, you can legally snag fish. In Michigan, you cannot legally snag fish. So unless you hook it in the mouth and legally catch that fish, we can't keep it anyway. So it's no good to us. So we're really looking for those few fish in a hole that are going to be aggressive enough to eat that fly.
Katie
So you also get some basically hooked in the butt, but you just have to release those.
Alex
Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, a 20-pound salmon on the end of a fly ride is a hell of a fight, and we'd love to enjoy it, but those fish go back to live another day.
Katie
I feel like foul-hooked fish usually fight harder than fair-hooked fish. And so when I get one or when a friend gets one, it's like, okay, sure, that doesn't quote-unquote count, But it's probably more impressive that you landed that than if you landed one hooked in the mouth because they're so hard to get in. They pull the wrong way. I agree. So is the big game hunting with the same outfitter that you work for in the summer as well, or is that two different?
Alex
No, this is actually with Heartland Pride Outfitters over in Nebraska. They lease about 60,000 acres of farmland over there, some absolutely amazing hunting land. There's mule deer, whitetail deer, elk, bighorn sheep, which they do not hunt for, but you'll see. antelope. So they've got pretty much every big game species almost over there.
Katie
Okay. Now I assume you're coming back to Colorado for some of those species, like bighorn sheep and stuff. You'll guide out of Nebraska into Colorado or?
Alex
Nope. It's actually all in Nebraska.
Katie
They have bighorn sheep in Nebraska? I did not know that.
Alex
Yeah, they do.
Katie
Do they have mountains?
Alex
So Scott's Bluff is where I work out of. And so bluff, it's big bluffs. So they're, you know, a couple hundred foot bluffs. So there are bighorn sheep.
Katie
I never knew that. Yeah. I guess that makes sense. I think we saw some in South Dakota, which is kind of like similar.
Alex
So there are two bighorn sheep permits that are drawn or two permits given out each year in the state of Nebraska. One of them is a draw for residents, which is just about the same odds as winning the lottery. The second one is an auctioned off tag and it went for like, I want to say $150,000 last year.
Katie
Now, is it, is it like if you get the tag pretty easy to get one or is it still like getting the tag is just the start of the challenge?
Alex
You know, I, I guess I don't know a whole lot about it. I know that driving from the lodge hunting every day, we usually saw the same 40 to 50 bighorn sheep every day off the side of the road. So where I was, there was, they were prevalent. Yeah, there's a lot of them. There's some huge ones. So it was awesome to see.
Katie
So back to the Gunnison. Actually, no, before we go back to that, I want to ask you about the alewives that you were telling us about in the kitchen. Can you just go over again what the alewife salmon situation is over there?
Alex
Yeah. So, you know, someone's probably going to call me out and say I'm misrepresenting the dates here. But I want to say in the 50s, 60s, the alewife was an introduced exotic bait fish that was introduced in the bilges of barges in the Great Lakes. The alewives didn't really have any natural enemies, natural predators in the Great Lakes, Lake Michigan specifically. So they started to go crazy in population size. In the 80s, 70s, 80s, there was huge die-offs. So on the beaches around Lake Michigan, there's huge die-offs of alewives. So it was killing the tourist economy. The beaches were smelling like rotten fish, so people didn't want to come enjoy the beaches. So the Department of Natural Resources genetically modified the king salmon, which was a saltwater species. from Alaska. They modified it to be a freshwater species, introduced it into the Great Lakes to eat the alewives, and it did its job. They did their job. And the alewife population is not out of control like it used to be. So they've recently kind of started to dwindle down the stocking of the king salmon, which if you're in my line of work, isn't a great thing, but you know, it is what it is.
Katie
Do you, I don't know if you'll know this, but do you happen to know why they picked like a West Coast salmon.
Alex
So there's also a lake, there's a native lake trout population in the Great Lakes. It's funny, not being in Colorado, they call it the Mackinac Lake Trout. In Colorado, Mackinac Island is an island in the Great Lakes. So there's lots of lake trout. Lake trout are bottom dwelling fish. Steelhead in the Great Lakes are a surface dwelling fish. So you find steelhead when you're fishing for steelhead out in Lake Michigan, you're going to find them in the top 10 feet usually it's top 20 feet of the water column the lake trout will be in the bottom 20 feet of the water column those alewives are going to be in the middle of the water column
Katie
okay out of the way of both of those
Alex
where the king salmon which just happens to be a mid-level fish, more of like a uh a temperature there's that temperature fluctuation down there the thermocline so more of like a thermocline fish which tends to be you know halfway up or so in the water column
Katie
now would they if I know you said that they're stocking them less and less because it's kind of I'm sure it's not fully solved but like kind of problems getting solved so they're starting to kind of phase that out if they stop stocking them will they eventually all die out or is there any sort of self-sustaining population there that will keep going
Alex
so I guide on the betsy river the betsy river is one of the only rivers on the Michigan side that has any natural reproduction and it's about 0.01%. Okay. So there's almost no natural reproduction in those salmon, unfortunately.
Katie
So they probably will die off. Do you happen to know why they can't survive as they can on the West Coast?
Alex
Other than the fact that they're just, that's not their native habitat. Ideal, yeah. Okay. You know, they're introduced, they're an introduced species to the Great Lakes. So they try, they get on that gravel. Those females will get, we call them reds, you know, it's spots in the gravel that they turn white they clean it off of their bodies they try as hard as they can to spawn and see it going through the motions you see it go through the motions it's really neat to see
Katie
I've heard it I've heard I don't know if it's true but I've heard similar things about certain alpine lakes out here where you I mean I've seen the cutthroat going through their spawning rituals but then have been told that it's not actually doing anything and I don't know who's who's right I mean obviously some lakes have self-sustaining populations and others need to be restocked every so often but yeah it makes you wonder which ones are actually successful which ones are just out there messing around and it's not working right so how'd you get your start with the guide service you guide for in the summer
Alex
yeah so Gunnison River Expeditions I actually moved out to Colorado about three four years ago I started guiding for a dude ranch in the West Elks Wilderness Area up in the Rocky Mountains guests that came to that lodge that wanted to do some more serious fishing we'd take them down to Gunnison River Expeditions so I went down there I got to know those guys and I don't know how but I just started getting introduced as the new guide so I just went along with it.
Katie
Just kept going?
Alex
Yep.
Katie
And how long have you been with them?
Alex
This will be my third year.
Katie
Okay are you still you still enjoying it? Is it like dream job?
Alex
It is dream job it's a lot of work but it's a it's a it's a great job.
Katie
Are you doing road trips, wade trips kind of all across the board?
Alex
So Gunnison River Expeditions is right on the Gunnison River right outside of Hotchkiss in between Hotchkiss and Delta. So we do in June and July, I do mostly three-day float trips through the Black Canyon. So the logistics of that trip, it's about an hour and a half drive into the Black Canyon. It's a mile and a half hike from the trailhead down into the river. All your gear gets horse packed in, including the rafts and frames and coolers. So it's pretty logistically strenuous to make the trip happen, but it's an amazing trip. So that's where I am. Most of June and July, August, and the end of May even, we do a lot of jet boat trips. So from the Gunnison River Expeditions Lodge at the Pleasure Park, we have a jet boat permit for the Gunnison River. So we'll put the drift boats or the rafts on top of the jet boat, take it up four miles to where the Black Canyon ends, drop that off, and then bring up the clients and guides, and then we'll drift back to the Pleasure Park.
Katie
Okay, is that like a day trip for that one?
Alex
Yep. You can make it into a two-day trip. There's campgrounds up there, but usually it's just a one-day trip.
Katie
Now, are there campgrounds pretty like well along the canyon? I know that there's camping in it, but is like most of the canyons campable?
Alex
So the last, it's from Chucker Trail kind of down to kind of out of the canyon. There's quite a few public camping areas. The trick there is getting into them.
Katie
Is it reservation system or first come, first serve?
Alex
um those there's a sign in box at the top I believe where you where you'd park your car the trailhead
Katie
okay but it's just like you show up and if no one's there you can sign your name and go down in
Alex
yeah
Katie
and what do you like what are you fishing for I assume browns and rainbows
Alex
it's about 95 brown trout five percent rainbow trout. the gunnison river is hit by whirling disease about 15 20 years ago so it killed almost all the rainbow trout so So not as many rainbows. They've been trying to restock the population recently. So there's not as many rainbows, but the rainbows that we do see tend to be 18 inches or bigger. So some big rainbows, but not quite as many.
Katie
Any other species you ever come across?
Alex
Rainbows and browns, pretty much. That's it. When you have a lower river, you get the warm water species. But no, we're just looking for those trout.
Katie
Yeah. And I have heard, I think I talked to Jay Scott back in, I think he might have been like episode two. And he was talking about the salmon fly hatch there and how it's just incredible.
Alex
Absolutely unbelievable. Yeah.
Katie
I still have not hit like a big salmon fly hatch. It's usually, I don't know, it's like that time of year where I'm still getting, like I'm still getting myself out for summer and I just, I'm not super like tuned into it yet.
Alex
But you definitely have to be at the right place at the right time. And it seems like the clients that specifically book for the salmon fly hatch never hit the salmon fly hatch. I don't know why it just works like that.
Katie
Do you get an earful? Where are the salmon flies? Why aren't they here?
Alex
The entire month of June, every client's first words out of their mouth is about the salmon flies and how they are and where are they. And it's funny. But, no, it's an amazing hatch. Standing there on the bank of the river, there's just three-inch bugs crawling up your neck and your face. It's a pretty special experience. If you're a fly fisherman. If you're not, it's disgusting.
Katie
Oh, yeah, I'm sure.
Alex
We love it. No other time could you sell it. It's like you get three-inch bugs crawling all over you. It's great. It's so funny. had a trip this past spring and the guys had his it was 70 degrees out and he had his his parka on with the hood tied around his face because he was creeped out of the bugs and I just kept thinking he's not gonna cut it as a fly fisherman not gonna cut it
Katie
you gotta get used to certain uncomfortable things like bugs on you
Alex
and that's a good sign yeah yeah
Katie
so walk me through like what what are the logistics on a three-day float trip because I feel like you're trying to manage I mean the Fishing is obviously priority number one, but you've also got to, you know, at some point your job mostly becomes keeping people comfortable and happy in situations that they might not normally be. So like walk me through the logistics of how a trip like that works.
Alex
Right. So we'll meet at 630 in the morning at the Pleasure Park. We'll get into vans. It's about an hour and a half drive in. Pretty bumpy ride in. We'll usually give a safety speech on the ride in. Get to the trailhead. The clients will have their gear, and most of the rest of the gear is already packed down by the horses, but the clients will have their gear that they're bringing on the trip on their back, and they hike the mile and a half down. Sometimes that is the most dangerous part of the trip because that's when you can have the trip and falls and the heat strokes and the stuff like that with people that just aren't used to the elevation that we're at and the heat that we have to deal with. So that's usually the most dangerous part of the trip there. Past that, it's just keeping people hydrated. Contrary to popular belief, beer does not hydrate you, so we have to really stay on them about drinking lots of water. Sunburn is another killer. Other than that, just keeping them in line so they don't roll ankles and stuff like that.
Katie
Do you have people who aren't comfortable in the rafts? Do they have to do anything in terms of getting down the river? Are they just along for the ride and people are generally pretty comfortable It doesn't matter if they're uneasy in the raft.
Alex
Yeah. For the three-day fly fishing trips, the client just has to sit there and enjoy it. Usually the clients are going to try to fish as much as they can from the raft as it's moving, which, as you kind of just said, it can be uncomfortable. You know, so it's on a client-to-client basis as far as how much they fish from the raft. We'll make bench seats for them out of gear that they can sit on, and some people like to sit on that and fish. Some people like to try to stand up and fish. During some of the rapids, the guides will call that out when we're going to get into some trickier water. Some clients will stop fishing and some like to keep right on fishing because that's where the biggest fisher found is right in those rapids where no one really fishes for them.
Katie
Do you have people who after a bit just want to sit and just ride along? Oh, yeah. I feel like there'd be a lot of people who are like, I fished for a couple hours. I'm mostly here to drink beer and be on the water.
Alex
One of my favorite stories this past year is a guy that came out and came fishing with his buddies. And he went on a two or three day fishing trip and had a great time, caught a bunch of fish. He came back a couple of weeks later with his wife and kids because he had such a great time. He wanted to show them. And they did not fish at all. They just had a fun float. And I'll never forget, he told me, he was like, I never, or what did he say? He said, I never saw any of this stuff the first time. He's like, the second time I actually got to look up and enjoy it. And the first time I missed it all, sitting there looking at my indicator, my dry fly the whole time. Yeah. It's funny.
Katie
That's one thing I like. I, I noticed, I really noticed it for the first time this past summer, but we were fishing like a, just an alpine lake up here. And I, I will almost always opt for a dry fly if I can, obviously, but you got, then you have to watch it so closely. And I ended up just stripping nymphs after that. Cause I was like, I can just look around while I do that. You know, you're just feeling for the tug and it's like, yeah, I wouldn't normally opt for stripping a nymph in a lake when I could watch a rise. But at some point you're kind of sick of just staring at the same spot in the water over and over again, over and over again.
Alex
So I always start, start my trips on the water by telling people don't spend the entire day looking down at the water. You are in one of the most beautiful places in the world. So make sure you enjoy it.
Katie
Yeah. You got to remind the clients to like have fun. Yeah. At the end of the day, all I need you to do here is have fun. I don't, I don't, you know, if you only, if you're happy with one fish, we'll get you one fish for sure.
Alex
My job as a guide is finding out what makes those clients tick and what's going to make them have a good day because you know some people some people need to catch a lot of fish in order to have a good time unfortunately
Katie
do you what how how would you break down kind of like the ratio of what people are usually looking for because I feel like I I used to guide a little bit but it was in much more of like a family setting where you'd have people who were just there like to have fun and learn but I feel like somewhere you know if you're booking a three-day trip down the gunnison I feel like it's you're probably there to catch fish
Alex
yeah yeah they they definitely come in with really high expectations and usually those expectations are met you know every once in a while they are not met and usually even then the clients are okay with it I guess there is the the occasional client who has been upset with with the fishing or with the trip or or some aspect of it but I think that's any job you're gonna have have somebody that's for sure throws a wrench in it
Katie
yeah I got a call once from a guy who's coming up from texas and he was like I really really want to catch a big fish while I'm there and I was like you're not in the place for this is like small stream small lake yeah like this you're gonna catch a lot of you know eight to twelve inch fish and he's like I really want to catch like a big fish and I was like oh that's not gonna happen but have you ever caught a brook trout before and he's like no I was like well that's what we're gonna go catch and you know he was excited about the new species but gotta kind to set the expectations before you go out like look it is a good day if you catch you know 20 fish but don't expect something that's you know too big but I'm sure you can kind of provide both of in the gunnison like size and numbers those
Alex
yeah there's some awesome fishing we usually get quite a few fish and even a bad day on the gunnison is is you're still catching fish you know
Katie
so are you just floating from campsite to campsite I assume
Alex
yeah on those three-day trips we have on The three-day trips especially, we have a whole lot of time to explore the water, and we're going to stop every couple hundred yards, every good riffle, everything that provides us with some good fishing opportunity, we're going to stop and hit for a while. A lot of accessible stuff from the banks at places in the canyon. So we do some walk wading, and clients can go out on their own or go walk wading with a guide if they choose.
Katie
Now, do you get much time to fish for yourself over the summer? Are you pretty booked up every day?
Alex
It's funny. People come on and say, oh, you must fish all the time as a guide. No, not really. No, but you still enjoy it. You know, you're out there and you're with people who are catching, in their eyes, once in a lifetime fish. So it's pretty special.
Katie
So do you have any places like near home that you ever go? Just like on the shoulder seasons or anything like that?
Alex
Yeah, I mean, usually in the winter is my time to go fishing. I usually do some duck hunting on the river, some blasting casts in the winter. So that's really my time to catch fish and some of the best fish that the river produces is in the winter. And there's nobody else out there, which is nice.
Katie
Now you fish in the same river? Yep. Just get back to the same spot. I guess you know it so well. Like you know where they all are.
Alex
That's right. It's good.
Katie
Have you seen any just like monsters come out on guide trips where you're like, oh man, I could have been, I could have been here to catch this fish.
Alex
You know, for every big fish that we land, we lose two that are bigger. So you see a lot of big fish in there, but it seems like the big ones, you know, they're few and far between coming to the net.
Katie
What would you say is the average size? I know you said rainbows are often around like 18. What about the browns?
Alex
It's funny. The average fish, the average fish during the salmon fly hatch is 18, 19 inches. The average fish two weeks later is 12 to 14 inches. Okay, it's a little bit smaller than I would have expected. Yeah, but they're still, you know, three, four-pound fish. Yeah. You know, a 20-inch rainbow is a chunky fish.
Katie
I mean, I feel like most places in Colorado, 10 to 12 is kind of average or on the larger side. So if that's on the average to smaller side, then that's not a bad setup.
Alex
Yeah, we're spoiled.
Katie
So I usually start off with this, but we kind of just dove right in. But how did you get your start in the outdoors? Like, did you grow up hunting and fishing? Do you have a mentor?
Alex
Yeah, my dad really got me into it. My dad got me into hunting and fishing and got me a passion for that. We have a family farm in Central Lower Peninsula, so I spent a lot of time there as a kid just exploring the outdoors and nature and ended up going to college for environmental science and biology. I worked a couple more professional jobs after college and started guiding in my free time and on my weekends using some of my paid time off And then finally decided that I was not happy doing that and I would be happy or a lot happier guiding. So I made that transition and I've never looked back and I've never been happier.
Katie
Fair enough. I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat.
Alex
Yeah. If anybody's on the verge, I'd recommend it.
Katie
Well, would you recommend going to college and then doing it or just going straight for it?
Alex
You know, for me, going to college first worked well. And I guess it gives me a fallback in case I need to find another real job.
Katie
Which doesn't sound like is needed right now. Not right now. With the numbers of people.
Alex
Yeah, it's going well. Everything's going well. And there's a lot of people that want to get out fishing, fortunately.
Katie
Yeah, did you notice an actual increase in the number? Or was it just that you were still consistently busy? Were there more people booking trips farther in advance? Stuff like that.
Alex
Unfortunately or fortunately, we saw an increase in people that were coming fishing.
Katie
Do you actually have the room for that? Are you usually not fully booked out, but this year you were? Or were you turning people away?
Alex
So if we're talking Gunnison River Expeditions, Gunnison River Expeditions has X number of guides who usually don't work every day, all of them. Whereas this year, that was more than not the case. Everyone's booked out. Yeah, everyone's working every day. Which, from a guide's perspective, is good. It was a great year for us.
Katie
Is there also a fly shop associated with the outfitter?
Alex
There is, yep. Gunnison River Expeditions works out of the Pleasure Park. It's a Hotchkiss address that's in between Hotchkiss and Delta.
Katie
Okay. And do you happen to know how that fly shop or fly shops in general were affected?
Alex
I don't know. I've got to imagine that fly shops in general are doing pretty well. I know there seems to be a lot more people out fishing than there has been in years past.
Katie
Yeah, because at first I feel people were talking about support your local shop, you know, I don't disagree with, but I think they were saying it in kind of a preventative, like, oh, they're about to go through a really hard time. And I'm sure they've had to close their doors for a lot of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're kind of making it up by having like an online presence, you know, getting people out in the water or maybe even just being like, we can guide you.
Alex
Right. Right. I mean, I know Ed's fly shop over in Montrose, over in the Westside, Western Slope. He just recently moved into a new building. So I think business is going good for Ed. He's a great guy too, which I don't, you know, don't, I don't know why business wouldn't be going well for him, but I know Ed's doing well. So hopefully other fly shops around the area are following suit.
Katie
Yeah. I'm hoping that this allows a lot of shops, well not allows, but maybe kind of forces a lot of shops to have more of an online presence. Cause you know, there's times where I, Like I try to support local when I can, but I don't always have the time to drive across town to whatever fly shop. So they just encourage more fly shops to like be like, all right, we just got to we just got to get the website set up.
Alex
I have a feeling a lot of that's going on.
Katie
So did you notice a difference in the hunting?
Alex
You know, I really to tell you the truth, this is my first really experience with the big game stuff. So I don't have a whole lot to compare it to. I've got to imagine it's similar, though. There's people that want to get outside and enjoy the outdoors and have a little bit more time off and, you know, want to go enjoy that stuff.
Katie
I think I heard fishing. I don't know if it was hunting or fishing licenses were up like 30,000 in Colorado alone. I think it was hunting licenses. But, yeah, there's a lot more people out there on the rivers. I am curious how many are going to still be around next year, but we'll see.
Alex
Or how many people actually even went out to enjoy their hunting licenses or fishing licenses.
Katie
Yeah. Maybe. I mean, a lot of rods and flies were sold, I'm sure. Yeah. And they might be on Craigslist next year. we gotta keep an eye out that's right so what like are you you said you just got back from Michigan are you transitioning over into just your like your winter stuff now at this point
Alex
yep yep I'll be doing some stuff with gunnison river expeditions they have some bird hunts that they do in the fall or in the winter so I'll be doing some stuff with them but upland and and waterfowl or just yeah yep upland and waterfowl I do more of the upland stuff for them but this is also my time of year I take some time off and enjoy it for myself so don't do in the winters, but I'm affiliated with that.
Katie
Is the upland, do you have a lot of upland hunting out just on the western slope? Is that?
Alex
Yeah, so Gunnison River Expeditions leases like 2,000 acres of land on Scenic Mesa over there. It's just awesome upland cover, and they have pen-raised pheasants and chukar that they have clients come out and hunt. So it's just beautiful area, beautiful country, tons of country.
Katie
Yeah, I always think about like the eastern eastern plains in Nebraska when I'm thinking of like Upland and always forget about the western slope. Yeah we've got some good stuff over there. Speaking of Upland do you do any fly tying? I do yep. Are you tying most of the flies that you're using on the guided trips?
Alex
So for Michigan I'm tying all my own flies. A lot of those are simpler flies too. A lot of egg patterns, woolly buggers, egg sucking leeches, stuff like that. In Colorado it seems that I tie a lot of my own bugs but there's still some that I can't even tie for what I can buy them for so I just end up buying buying some of them
Katie
yeah I feel like a lot of people get into fly tying to save money and I feel like for certain patterns it makes sense like I don't do a ton of tying it but I'll tie all my own midges like I'm not gonna pay two bucks for black thread on a hook but there's a couple where I'm like I don't know if I'll ever get to the point of tying this myself
Alex
Yeah, there's some that have 20 different ingredients per se.
Katie
You have to buy all in like 100 fly quantities at least.
Alex
Absolutely.
Katie
Do you think most streamers are more expensive to tie or buy?
Alex
It depends. You can get some of that stuff in bulk. From experience, some of the stuff, trying to skimp on quality, it does affect the fly. In what way? Like quality for which materials? So like different chenilles, say, for like bodies of streamers, you know, some will hold more water, some will sink faster, some will be more buoyant, stuff like that.
Katie
Yeah, that's something I'd like to get more into. I built my first rod last year, though, and found that that captured my attention more than fly tying. Have you?
Alex
I've never done that, and it's something that I've really wanted to do for a long time. So I'll have to pick your brain on that.
Katie
Oh, I'm not an expert. I've got a friend who does it. But it was just, I don't know, I think I liked the staying on one project a little bit longer, which is something that I feel like fly tying, you know, you finish them pretty quickly. And I liked having a project that lasted for, I mean, for me it lasted a couple days to do. So, yeah, you'll have to let me know if you go to build one because I think I might build another one this winter. Yeah. Do you fish fiberglass at all?
Alex
I've got a couple fiberglass rods. A couple of my eight weights back in Michigan are fiberglass.
Katie
How do you find the, like, heavier weight fiberglass? I feel like most people out here are fishing like two to three weight fiberglass.
Alex
It's got, it's a lot more, doesn't have so much backbone, I guess you could say. So you'll feel the bend all the way back to the handle. They're fun rods. When they break, they break explosively though. I'm sure. So we've kind of gotten away from them.
Katie
It sounds like you've figured that out from experience. Care to tell the story?
Alex
Oh, it's always just, you know, a reel that the drag doesn't seem to want to go out for some reason. And we're using, you know, 10 or 12 pound tippet. So that rod will explode if that drag doesn't function like it should.
Katie
Do you have any rod breaking stories? Or like clients that have broken rods?
Alex
I mean, this year we had a fish that, you know, a lot of times they'll take off and they'll be 200 yards away from the boat in 10 seconds. Or like this happened and the fish just started jumping, jumping, and it was jumping two feet in front of the boat. And so the client is, you know, that rod is just arched way over with the fish jumping in front of the boat. Broke the rod. The fish runs right at me with a net, still fresh. I net the fish and the fish goes straight through the net, breaks through the net. What? Somehow we still landed the fish. Like snapped the netting? No, it went through the netting. Oh, through the holes. Yeah. Okay. Somehow tore a hole in the holes and got through there. And then I got into a wrestling match with that fish on the bank and somehow we landed.
Katie
I feel like there's always, like I had one, I had a client once whose fly line snapped and you could see it. It was in a lake and you could see the fly line like swimming around the surface. We eventually like grabbed it out of the water as it swam past. But I feel like when you're fishing with clients, you see so much more stuff happen because you're, you know, if you're guiding two or three people, that's two or three people's experience is worth it. You get to witness. And so you just see a lot more stuff when you're watching a bunch of other people fish.
Alex
It always seems like they land the biggest fish are the ones that they should not land. And somehow we get it to come together and they land it.
Katie
What are the biggest fish you've personally witnessed landed?
Alex
This year, one of the biggest fish I think was a 29-pound king. The second client in the boat started videotaping the battle, the fight, five or ten minutes into it. And I think it was 47 minutes into the video is when we landed the fish. Oh, wow. So that was like an hour of fight. He's a dedicated cameraman.
Katie
I'd be like, all right, we're going to wait until this is closer to the net.
Alex
And that fish was 400 yards downstream, wrapped under two logs, and we should never have landed that fish, and somehow it happened. Stayed on. Happened, yeah.
Katie
Do the salmon, when they come in, does the quality of their flesh depend on how long they've been in the system?
Alex
Yes, it does.
Katie
Trying not to catch them right before they die, I assume.
Alex
Right, and so that's also why I will fish for the month of September, and then I'll leave the last, you know, last week of September is usually when I'm wrapping up my trips. And that's usually when the first, the first salmon that came into the river are starting to die. And that's when the river starts to get stinky. And, you know, that's when I give up. I know there's a few people that will fish the whole month of October. The quality of fish that I find just deteriorates. And then you're not catching as many fish in the mouth. It's more fish that are snagged because they're not eating aggressively or they're not, they're not doing much at all.
Katie
So does it have more to do with the timing that you're fishing than it does like location and river? Or is it kind of both? Like if you're fishing farther up the river, have those salmon kind of made it a little bit farther and are petering out a little bit?
Alex
Yeah. And so I've got some private stretches of river back in Michigan, which kind of is special just in that we can float nine or ten miles of river and see three or four people in a day.
Katie
So you're floating there too?
Alex
Yeah. Oh, okay.
Katie
I figured those were wade trips.
Alex
Nope. Nope. I've got a drift boat back there. So we'll float, you know, seven, eight, 10 miles of river in a day and not see many people. We are fishing maybe 15, 20 miles inland from the lake. So the fish that we're seeing have traveled, you know, little ways, but they're still eating. We're still catching. Like I said, a majority of them are aggressively right in the mouth.
Katie
Okay. Do you have any ideas that the fish all kind of die off, just like I would expect they do in Alaska or wherever else? Do you have some sort of influx of animals coming down to the bank?
Alex
So it's funny because they are such, in history-wise, they're such a recent species that other species have not really. The bald eagle is one that does. There's tons of bald eagles all over the river. But as far as bears, there's bears in the area. And I've heard of people seeing a bear every couple of years. But you don't see bears like you do see bears in Alaska. bears in Alaska over you know generations and generations have learned to eat those salmon whereas it's only the salmon have only been in Michigan for 40 or 50 years so they just haven't really picked it up yet
Katie
I'm surprised I feel like a bear would still I mean I feel like they're pretty opportunistic I'm surprised they wouldn't have picked up on that I want to see I would love to see I could leave a dead fish out in the woods and a bear I feel like would come up and take it would be like well I don't know I've never seen this before this doesn't look like the trash can I raided last week
Alex
and then come back the next year and the next year and the next year but I don't know they just for some reason you don't see them
Katie
now don't know if you'll know because I don't know if you've mentioned it but the kokanee's here do you know if we have a similar die-off like that like I never hear about some sort of like massive salmon die-off
Alex
so every year what makes a salmon a salmon is that they live their life and then they spawn and then they die so a steelhead is a trout right and that it will spawn numerous times every year but every time a salmon spawns it will die so like those kokanee's they do they run up the river every against two years they live in the lake and then they'll run up the river and they'll spawn and they'll die
Katie
okay I just haven't just haven't heard of anyone talking about it
Alex
like October November when that happens and so you just it's frozen and
Katie
people aren't there it's not a stinky hot mess okay
Alex
yeah
Katie
that probably helps I feel like if if Colorado's rivers every summer were just choked with dead fish I feel like there might be a drop in tourism. People not coming out. So what's on your plate for the next couple months then? You're just taking a little bit of time off and then fishing for fun for a little bit?
Alex
Yeah, I'll be antelope hunting here for a couple days. And then I'll be heading to Nebraska. I'll be guiding for Heartland Pride Outfitters again for their muzzleloader season, their mule deer season out there, which will be 14 days long, I believe. And then I'll be coming back to Colorado here to enjoy the rest of my winter
Katie
sweet well I might have to hit you up for a gunnison trip this year because I've I fished the the lake fork a couple times and I fished the actual gunnison river I want to say like once or twice but not in the canyon I guess that's probably maybe my last question is like how different is the canyon section from the rest of that river like if you were to fish it up closer to gunnison itself?
Alex
so it's kind of what you think of when you think of canyon it's going to be walls on both sides for the most part you've got you park in the middle of the canyon that we float that's a little bit more open. But for the most part, above and below Ute Park is pretty much canyon walls on both sides. So really to float it is going to be the best way to access that entire stretch.
Katie
Okay. And as far as like fishing techniques, is it pretty similar hatches and fly selection?
Alex
Yep. You get that huge salmon fly hatch. Before the salmon fly hatch, you're fishing just the stonefly nymph. So the salmon fly nymph variation, which is just going to be a Pat's rubber leg. And they're just inhaling that. And there's one study that said 75% of a fish, some of those fishes diet in the canyon is the salmon flies. Like during that time? Or through the year? For their entire year, 75% of the protein is the salmon fly hatch. That's crazy. So you're catching these fish that are just throwing up salmon fly bugs. And it's just ridiculous. So before the salmon fly hatch, you're fishing with those Pat's rubber legs. You're fishing dry flies, all salmon fly hatch. And then after the salmon fly hatch, you still have like golden stones. There's yellow sallies, stuff like that.
Katie
Yeah, I'll have to let you know if we end up that way because we've been wanting to, I mean, we've been to the Black Canyon, but we haven't fished it yet. And it's been on my list.
Alex
It's a really special place, about 8,000 trout per mile in there.
Katie
I assume that's gold water or gold medal status. Absolutely. Well, I guess before we go, do you just want to go over any of your handles, email, Anywhere people can reach you if they want to book a trip?
Alex
Yeah, so in Michigan, I run Tinger Guide Service, T-I-N-G-E-R Guide Service. I'll be available to take bookings for next September. And then back in Colorado here, I work for Gunnison River Expeditions on the Gunnison River and Heartland Pride Outfitters over in Nebraska.
Katie
Perfect. We can head back out there and hopefully fish together this summer maybe.
Alex
I appreciate everything. Thank you.
Katie
All right, and that is all. As always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes, a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks. And you can find me on social media under my name, Katie Berger, on Go Wild or at Fish Untamed on Instagram. I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye, everyone.
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