Ep 35: A New Angler’s Perspective, with Sam Ayres

Sam Ayres is a hunter, podcaster, and most recently, a new fly fisherman. Sam grew up catching fat stocker rainbows on a spin rod but always wanted to try fly fishing. After picking up his first rod a year ago, he has slowly started building up his knowledge and skills. And in the past few months, he’s had more time to seriously devote to it. Since he recently passed through Colorado after an Arizona elk hunt, we decided to hit the water together and get him on his first cutthroats and brown trout. After our day on the river, we sat down to record an episode about our day of fishing, what he has learned and been surprised by during the process, and other thoughts as a new angler. Also, check out Sam’s podcast, The Wild Initiative (which may sound familiar to those of you who have listened to Fish Untamed since the beginning), and his digital media services company, TWI Digital.

Website: www.thewildinitiative.com

Apple Podcasts: Podcast page

Digital Media Services: TWI Digital

Instagram: @thewildinitiative

GoWild: Samuel Ayres

• Transcript

  Katie

  You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. Alright, welcome to episode number 35 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today's episode was a super fun one to record because I got to finally sit down and do my first in-person episode with none other than the host of the original podcast network I was on, Sam Ayers of the Wild Initiative. And apart from the fact that, you know, he was in town so I wanted to have him on, I was really excited to talk to Sam because he has gotten into fly fishing pretty recently. I'd say he took it up seriously a couple months ago even though he bought a rod oh I don't know maybe a year ago now but either way he's finally kind of gotten into it a little bit more and I've been wanting to talk to him kind of about his experience as a new angler but I wanted to wait long enough for him to actually have something to say just beyond you know I'm just getting started and I'm not really sure what I'm doing so when he told me he'd be passing through Colorado I was like yeah let's go fishing and we can record a podcast so we went out fishing and he I think tripled his number of fish prior to that when we were out there together so we got to talk right after we got back from that trip I got to hear some thoughts from him about what it's like to be kind of just getting into the game just far enough in to kind of know what he's doing but still still have a lot of questions and just talk about his experience catching his first cutthroats and his first brown trout on the fly. We had a great time. There's a lot of laughing, a lot of jokes. And just for some context, I don't think we caught anything over eight inches that day. So that'll explain some of the joking about the giant fish we caught. So I will hop right into it. Here is my chat with Sam Ayers. So is today's episode going to be informational, I assume, since you're here to share your expertise on the fly fishing?

  Sam

  Yeah. So really, you know, after catching some lunkers like we did today, I really feel like I've got a lot to share with the fly fishing community. My expertise is effectively boundless. I really think that most anyone could benefit. Clearly. After ripping lips like we did today.

  Katie

  I am curious. How into the fly fishing slang world do you feel at this point? At what point do you feel indoctrinated in where you're like, I can start using these?

  Sam

  That's like an interesting thing. It's kind of like, okay, you go fishing twice. You're not like... I'm an expert now. Yeah, exactly. It's like, you don't... I don't know. It almost feels disingenuous to use the slang because you're not part of the culture yet.

  Katie

  Yeah. I'm trying to think of I'm trying to think of an example. But like. But how do you know when that when you've crossed that barrier? We're like, I don't feel like a charlatan.

  Sam

  I almost feel like when it just comes naturally, when you've had enough conversations with people that it suddenly becomes like a natural part of your vocabulary or whatever that is, your discourse, where it's like – and, you know, once again, this is clearly a very scientific exact process here. But I feel like, okay, when you've been doing it long enough, you've been interacting with the community long enough that you feel like that it just kind of comes naturally. If you feel like you have to like have to say something or you like need to find the right words.

  Katie

  Like what should I insert in this? Like go through your dictionary in your head of like all the slang terms you can put in there and be like insert versus just it just comes out.

  Sam

  Exactly. I feel like yeah if you have to sit and think like okay how would like a real angler how would like a real real fly angler…

  Katie

  That’s your admittance to like okay well I shouldn't be saying it

  Sam

  exactly and I think you know I mean again there's no like hard and fast like okay this is the appropriate time to use the slang and you know and of course I'm probably the last person that should be dictating one way or the other when you can say something

  Katie

  I wonder if there's almost like a path that someone takes where you start off and you're like I don't feel comfortable saying this and then you get to the place where like I'm experienced enough to say this and then you get so experienced you're like I don't need to say that anymore like I don't need to try so hard

  Sam

  what are you saying ripping lips ain't cool 

  Katie

  lunkers 

  Sam

  lunkers yeah you know caught me a couple of toads today

  Katie

  so tell me about your toads today

  Sam

  yeah you know so uh out and you know you've been bugging me to come fly fishing you know I know you want to soak up some of my experience too so I was like okay finally you know I'll grace her with my presence

  Katie

  I mean I've been counting down the days just marking the x's on the calendar

  Sam

  this is the the sam's coming fly fishing calendar. I really hope people have not like stopped the podcast by now 

  Katie

  no they're definitely wanting to see how this dumpster fire ends 

  Sam

  dear lord this guy's an asshole like folks if you have seen the pictures I have posted on instagram at this point you will know dear lord we are joking so I am a I am a brand new fly fisherman fly anglers is fly angler used

  Katie

  uh I don't see why it couldn't be but I don't hear it very often often

  Sam

  I like using the term angler I just 

  Katie

  I like angler too fly fisherman sounds too pretentious and fisherman sounds like you're like well I gotta let him I gotta let him know I did it with a fly though you know

  Sam

  like I was gonna say saying fisherman always makes me think like I need to be wearing like a beanie like hemingway yeah like I need to be wearing like a beanie a yellow like rain jacket and be on like a on like a deep sea boat and like hauling in nets or something

  Katie

  yeah that's what I think angler sounds I feel like angler is a good – it just sounds clean. There's no controversy. There's no weird what you're getting at when you say it. It's clear. It just is.

  Sam

  So I'm going to use fly angler. Fly angler. People are probably shaking their heads at me, but I don't care. Fly hyphen angler. So fly fishing, being a fly angler, I'm brand new in all this. I'm the first person to admit I don't know crap. I've always been interested in it, but I'm also brand new at hunting. And so I got into hunting. I got into all the outdoors, all this stuff. I'm originally a city kid. I grew up in the suburbs of Orange County, lived in Los Angeles for most of my life. Like, I just didn't have a lot of friends that did this. I would spin real fish, like, for a week every summer on vacation, and that was it. Same rock, same stocked rainbow trout. that we'd always get and I mean I could set up tackle for that like no one's business you put me with any other rig anywhere else I have no clue what I'm doing but I've always wanted to fly fish and it's it's it's romantic it's an art form it is beautiful I mean shoot how can you not watch a river runs through it and be like I'm gonna go buy all the fly rods in the world well

  Katie

  Well, I think that actually happened when that movie came out. I think fly fishing as a hobby skyrocketed after that movie. I don't know how many people stuck with it or if there was a plateau the year after and then maybe all the numbers dropped off. But I know that's considered a spike right after that movie came out.

  Sam

  It'd be interesting. I'm sure there's probably numbers for that around. It's almost like when Joe Rogan picked up bow hunting. All of a sudden, you could not find a used bow on eBay to save your life. very similar idea where it suddenly is inserted in in a beautiful way in popular culture and everyone's like I need to give this a try which is awesome it's you know and I'm we all we all kind of bitch and moan a little bit about you know there's too crowded too crowded in the woods or you know oh my gosh if we see another pull off with six cars on it you know while we're trying to find a spot on the river, you know, you're going to shoot ourselves, but, it's, it's exciting to see that many people at least excited and trying to gain an understanding of the outdoors, but, you know, I always had an interest in, in fly fishing, wanted to do it, but I'm like, you know, I should probably at least focus a little bit more on, on the, the one incredibly difficult new hobby that I've picked up with, you know, bow hunting until at least, you know, I, I hate to even say that I have a handle on it because I don't even close to have a handle and I'm not sure anyone ever does.

  Katie

  Well, I like that you still say like I'm like a brand new hunter. I'm like you've been hunting for like several years now.

  Sam

  Yeah.

  Katie

  Which like I don't I don't disagree. Like, you know, you're obviously still in the early stages of a lot of like I am too. But I feel like there's a lot of people who do something like three times. They're like, I like I do this now.

  Sam

  And I'm an influencer.

  Katie

  Right. And it's like I appreciate when I hear someone who's like, I've been doing this for like they underestimate themselves. And it's like, no, you're probably more knowledgeable than, you know, a lot of people out there. But you're like, I think that's what keeps you motivated to keep learning more is because you convince yourself that you're still brand new. Even though like you've been fly fishing for a couple months now.

  Sam

  I mean, effectively since January was when I really seriously started pulling out the rod. And I mean, you know, it's all tech. Set the bar low.

  Katie

  That's why you haven't like caught many fish until now is because as soon as you catch a bunch, you can only go downhill from there. 

  Sam

  There you go. No, I mean, so I had you on the podcast. We had been talking earlier, like right when you were getting ready to start your podcast. And so I had you on the podcast to kind of introduce your podcast to all my listeners. And also because I was like, okay, I'm kind of figuring out a little more with this bow hunting. I can maybe start thinking about trying something new. Be good to have a fly angler on the podcast. and and I still love that podcast I think it is the like perfect intro if somebody wants to get into fly fishing I think we were talking about earlier where it was like you're not going to learn everything about fly fishing by listening to that podcast like you're going to need to figure out a lot more stuff but it it teaches you which questions to ask and just where to start like it It puts you on a path without, you know, but it does, it's not going to give you all the answers. Nothing is.

  Katie

  It kind of like points you in the right direction to start getting the answers that you need. Whereas before you're like, I don't even know what answers I'm looking for.

  Sam

  Exactly. You don't know what questions to ask. You don't know just where to begin. And so I think that's a great episode. And, you know, I was, I was in Montana at the time. I recorded that episode from a really sketchy Montana motel that I was in. I forgot about that. And so I was going to pick up some stuff from the local sports store in Lewistown, Montana. It was just a little teeny sports store. And I walked by all the fly fishing gear. I'm like, nah, I don't need to do that right now. I'm still figuring stuff out. I'm in the middle of my elk hunt. A few hundred dollars later.

  Katie

  Well, see, that's the fastest way to get started, though, because it's so easy. Like, we were talking about how I listened to your episode about waterfowl hunting. I was like in the same boat where I was like oh good you know I need an intro on this but but it's still just one of those things where I'm like yeah well someday but the I feel like the fastest way to make yourself like just go do it is drop a couple hundred bucks on the initial gear that you know you need and you're like well now I've got money in this so I should probably go try using it but as long as you don't have that gear yet it's like really easy to keep pushing it off yeah so I don't know if you had a flyer like collecting dust in your corner I think you're a lot more likely to be like well I don't care how bad I am I'm gonna go throw this out in the water to see what happens

  Sam

  well that was the whole thing like I went and and we even talked about that you don't have to spend a ton of money to start like you know I say whatever a couple hundred bucks I didn't even spend that like I think I spent 80 dollars on an inexpensive starter kit you know that was a nine foot five weight rod kind of good all-around rod had everything I needed all I had to do was assemble it and tie on some flies so I went and we had talked about flies you'd kind of we talked about some to to check out and and then I also did a google search like okay googled what flies does everyone need to have like and and and about half of them were once we discussed

  Katie

  yeah because there there are like a couple basic ones that they were probably going to show up in like every single…

  Sam

  Woolly buggers parachute Adams like there's just you know a a few that what was it copper johns yeah they just seem to work everywhere you know and and so I picked a few of those up and I picked up some you know just a few little things here and there a fly box and kind of you know the little little things and thwen I didn't touch my rod for like three months until effectively kind of January came around and I had I'd gotten a hair of and I'm still using them $30 waders you can even put a picture

  Katie

  maybe that could be your like cover image for this episode is just a a neck to foot image of your waders

  Sam

  and I'm not talking crap about the waders because they have served me well they do not have a single leak in them you can't squat I cannot squat I cannot bend my knees when I'm wearing those waders unless I have them so loose, they won't stay up. They are effectively a giant garbage bag. So even in the coldest water, you will be sweating your balls off. Like it is. But you know what? I couldn't afford a pair of $200 waders.

  Katie

  Yeah, and cheaper stuff exists. I think that's the thing is like people are like, oh, this is expensive because what people eventually end up at is expensive. I think that's every hobby.

  Sam

  Yeah.

  Katie

  There are things available that people make fun of you for owning, you know, but look, you didn't get wet today.

  Sam

  Exactly. Well, and you know what? And we say people will make fun of you and it's all good nature. Like, you know, I was.

  Katie

  I mean, you'd be a real asshole if you actually made fun of somebody because you're like, ah, your waders are too cheap.

  Sam

  Yeah.

  Katie

  I don't know you, but just want to let you know.

  Sam

  But I mean, all in all, you know, you know, not counting whatever, you know, my fishing licenses for like the eight states now. Which add up. Yeah, and especially when you're non-resident in pretty much all of them. I don't think I even have my – no, I do. I definitely do. I'd be stupid if I'd been fishing.

  Katie

  So have you been getting annuals? Are you able to kind of get a couple days in each state and make it cheaper?

  Sam

  It depends. Some places, like Montana, I got annuals because I knew I'd be going back. Other – like when I was in Oregon, I just got like a – I think I just got a one-day fishing license because I was only there for a day. I mean, in every state, it's a little bit different what they offer. Some offer one day, some offer three days, some offer five days, some offer, you know, like.

  Katie

  One day or annual.

  Sam

  Yeah, it's like it's a mix. And so, you know, it just all depends on how often I think I'm going to be coming back, what time of year it is. Now it's getting later in the year. It's kind of like, okay, the likelihood of me coming back before next year is pretty low. So maybe just do a five day.

  Katie

  I remember, I'm trying to think of what like the most expensive state that, like I remember thinking New Mexico was really expensive when I went to fish there. I think a day was like $18 or something. And I was like, at the end of the day, it's not that much money to like go spend a day doing something I love. But I think it's just compared to other states I've been to. I remember that one being a little bit more expensive.

  Sam

  Well, I think Oregon was like $15, $16, something like that for a non-resident like single day license. And I mean, obviously, you know, you get a five day license. it's not going to be, you know, 15 times five or whatever. Yeah, it's a little money off. You get bulk discounts effectively. The Costco. I had like a Costco license. There you go. You know what? Like it would be cool if there was like some sort of almost like a Western states license or something where you could buy kind of like an overall license for like Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Colorado or something like this whole just like group of states where it was a single single license you know whatever you maybe you get a deal or it's some sort of almost like you know and again this is the difference between federal and state but almost like you know you can buy like a parks pass

  Katie

  like a national parks pass is good for all the national parks

  Sam

  exactly kind of something like that word that would be an interesting that would be an interesting concept but of course are not that our states would ever get along

  Katie

  well they all got to make their own rules I wish more states had some sort of like five-year license like I don't know where I'm going to be in five years but I think it's very highly likely that I'll be fishing colorado for the next five years like even if I were to move out of state it's probably not going to be far enough away that I wouldn't be willing to come back and fish here so I would I would buy like a five-year license right now and if it shaved off let's say like 10 bucks a year it's like okay I say like 50 bucks and I know I'm gonna buy that license anyway I guess then you're risking it and having to like get it reprinted because you're you have it for longer

  Sam

  but I mean most of those like you can you know you can find them online you can get them reprinted 

  Katie

  it's I think it's like a five dollar charge to get it reprinted or something like that

  Sam

  oh so we we were talking about the the giant lunkers

  Katie

  oh yeah the giant trout you caught today which I would like to point out that you caught what twice what you had already caught

  Sam

  Yeah, so I mean, you caught a pretty significant amount of fish, and even today, we doubled the amount of fish. Lifetime fly rod. Yeah. Yeah, what we caught today was double what I'd caught lifetime prior to this. On a fly rod. On a fly, yeah. But no, it was, you know, all joking aside, I caught four fish today, which for me was huge. I'd only ever, I'd caught a little mountain whitefish in Montana, and then I'd caught a pretty decent sized rainbow trout back in California. And so, you know, I was excited to just learn some things, come out, try something new today. And caught two cutthroats and caught two browns today. And, which was just super exciting for me. I was really wanted to come out and catch a cutthroat, you know, Colorado state fish and everything. And so it's like, I kind of feel like if you come out here to fish for the first time, you got to catch it.

  Katie

  You got to do like the local kind of fishing. Exactly. You can catch a brown trout anywhere.

  Sam

  Yeah, you can catch a brown anywhere. You can catch a rainbow pretty much just about anywhere too. I mean, I've been catching rainbow trout my whole life. I get excited about every fish I catch. Don't get me wrong. But I would get a lot more. I get a lot more excited about catching those small browns or that small cutthroat. than you know I would catching that big old rainbow back home because it's like it's new it's exciting yeah it's something different and it's just cool seeing new fish and and I mean that's so much of everything I do that's the whole purpose it's I've never done it before and so I want to learn how to

  Katie

  experience something new

  Sam

  yeah that's been me my whole life I've always I see somebody doing something it doesn't matter what it is it can be cooking it can be hunting it could be crocheting and yes I'm being dead serious when I say crocheting I know how to crochet we're gonna need pics oh they I have them I have them and I actually just recently I was cleaning out our warehouse and I found the box of like my half-finished scarves and blankets and beanies and crap that I used to crochet you know

  Katie

  we were talking about this earlier though that like it's a very attractive trait in a person when they're just like interested in things like I just like want to spend my time around people who like are excited about things and I don't care if those things are anything I'm interested in but like you don't want to hear someone talk like just be like yeah I don't know I'm whatever like I'm like just bland about everything I don't care what it is I just want someone to like light up when they when they see something new or experience something new that they're excited about like that's just such a a positive like atmosphere to be in

  Sam

  yeah it's it's very easy to be like attracted and drawn to those kind of people and want to spend time around them because it's like I was equated to like sports I don't watch sports on tv I don't enjoy it but you take me to a game like and you can see people's excitement about fired up yeah everyone's fired up you get caught up so like hobbies are like that where you have somebody that's fired up about something whether it's again it's fishing or hunting whether it's cooking whether it's golf whatever it happens to be if you get someone that's fired up about it and will share that with you it's hard not it it's hard for that not to be contagious and it just makes you want to be around that person because because you get that uplifting excitement

  Katie

  yeah I feel like it's like it's like when you when you get excited and your dog gets excited but they don't know why yeah it's like else is excited about something like I don't care about golf but if someone is like oh my gosh I love golf so much and it's like I'm gonna be more interested in listening to someone talk about it like that than someone who's just like and here's what it like here's what's involved in golf like I just I don't really care but I'm gonna share this info with you

  Sam

  yeah it's you know and I think that is so much of that is is just why I got into hunting and fishing is I see people I see people's joy with it their excitement around it and I want some of that you know and it's it's I mean it's been a wild freaking trip you know like getting into all this

  Katie

  so where did you like like not experience it like firsthand but what did you have like a trigger where you're like oh like that looks fun when it when it comes to fly fishing did you see someone doing it or was it like a movie or or something like that

  Sam

  you know there there's no like particular trigger that I could call out I think it was just honestly probably in general like popular culture and pictures and you know because it is it's like you know people talk about hunting all the time where it's like you know okay there's lots of different views of hunting but like that big romantic view of hunting is like you know hiking into the mountains with your bow and camping out for days and it's it's just this very picturesque romantic

  Katie

  you like picture someone standing on a cliff with like yeah antlers on their back as they look over the valley and

  Sam

  exactly you know and and I feel like in the fishing world that's what fly fishing is it's like there's a lot of cool I mean there's hundreds of different ways to fish and you know there's there's salt water there's deep sea there's you know there's just spin spin spin reels there's all kinds of different ways to fish all kinds of places you can fish but I feel like the fly fishing is that artistic romantic there's it's like that that whole concept of like being in the outdoors is healing and peaceful and it's the whole experience and yeah it's it's again it's it's so much about fly so little about fly fishing is often catching the fish you know it's like it's just being out there and learning the craft and perfecting it. And, you know, there's something like even if a fish doesn't hit it, when you make that cast and you, like, hit that spot under a tree and you get that perfect float down, you mend it just clean, and you're like, ah, that felt good.

  Katie

  Yeah, there's almost like goals you can accomplish. And I love it when you get in that zone because every once in a while you – you know, sometimes you're fishing and you're kind of absent-minded. You're just kind of going through the motions. But every once in a while, I feel like I get into this zone where, like you said, I'll be, like, looking at, like, a branch overhanging. Like, my sole focus right now is seeing if I can get a fly under that branch. And I'm going to try, like, six different positions and, you know, a bunch of different casts and, like, see if I can get the fly to land under there. And then you do. And it's like, I don't even care if a fish hits it. Like, I got the fly where I was trying to get it. Yeah. And I've been working toward that for the past 20 minutes. And it's just, like, that in itself is a – I don't know. It's like you feel like you're accomplishing a goal even if you're not catching fish.

  Sam

  Well, and that's the thing. Like I talk about it from a hunting perspective on my podcast all the time where it's like you have to set your measures of success. If you go out on your first hunting trip and you're like, I'm going to go out and kill a 360 bull on my first hunting trip and da-da-da-da-da, you're probably going to be sorely disappointed. But if you go out and you just want to experience or maybe you want to see a bull or whatever this is. And I think the same can apply to fly fishing because there are so many layers to it to where, you know, okay, you may not catch your, you know, a record-breaking, you know, brown trout on your first trip out. If you expect that, you're probably going to be kind of disappointed unless you get crazy lucky.

  Katie

  Also, I feel like it could kind of ruin it. You know, like, you get that and you're like, this is what it's like. And then you go the next time, you're like, well, this sucks, you know, because I'm not doing what I did last time. I almost feel like it would be really detrimental to someone's, this is going to sound really tacky, but like journey toward becoming an angler if on their first go they have like major success. Because most of the time that's not the case.

  Sam

  It is, you know, with anything, you have to learn to love the process of it. You know, if it's just about the final piece, whatever the victory, again, you're going to be sorely disappointed because you can't you can't win every time. It's just that's, you know, not how life works. And especially with wild animals, like whether they're elk, deer, cutthroats, browns or freaking carp. Freaking carp. Whether you're jackpulling bluegill out of a out of a cattle pond or you're you're fly fishing.

  Katie

  You're only a small piece of the pie. You could do everything right and it doesn't work out.

  Sam

  Just because, well, it just didn't happen to be any fish in that hole that day.

  Katie

  So I feel like you're in the stage right now that's almost one of the most interesting to talk to. Because it's not particularly interesting to talk to someone who started yesterday. Because they still don't really know anything yet. And also someone who's so ingrained in it that they forget some of those more simple things. Like they take for granted. They just know how it feels. They're no longer thinking about things. But right now I feel like you're in that stage where you're knowledgeable enough to at least know what you don't know. You know what you know. But you're still kind of actively thinking about what you're doing. I'm still analyzing everything. It's very conscious. Conscious decisions.

  Sam

  Intentional.

  Katie

  So like what – like are you able to like put into words what you're feeling right now in terms of feeling – the feeling between when you started and now and like picturing going from now to when you're like super confident on the water and can hold your own?

  Sam

  So here's the biggest thing. And this happened to me – I very specifically remember this happening to me with hunting. And then I remember it happening again, picking up fly fishing where I'm a researcher. I do a podcast. And so I interview guests. I look things up online. I watch videos. I do. I read books. I talk to people in the fly shops. I do all of this. And then I go out and I look at the stream and I go, none of this makes any sense.

  Katie

  I feel like I've had that experience with elk hunting where I feel like I could tell you word for word what to do. And then I get out there and I'm just like – it's just like a blank slate on my face comes over. I'm like, I forget it all. I forget everything I learned.

  Sam

  And it's not even you forget it. It's just you don't know how to apply it in that situation.

  Katie

  Like you were picturing a different situation and you nailed how to handle that. But then when that's not what's thrown at you, it all goes out the window.

  Sam

  Yeah, and it's just you don't have the – you don't have those intricacies. You don't understand those quite yet. You understand the broad picture, but, you know, you don't – you just don't have those little, you know, changes and intricacies in how to react to those. But I just remember my first time going out, like, really going out. Like, because I went out and, like, I went to the Sac River, like, in town. I just kind of threw some flies out and just more for casting practice than anything. But when I went out on like my first real trip, like went out on the river, you know, I went to the fly shop, talked to him about where I should go and like what flies I should use and went through this whole thing. And I drove out and I walked out into the river and I was kind of like, what now? Like, do I just like throw a fly in that spot?

  Katie

  Like, like in your mind, you kind of skip that step where you're like, yeah, and I get the flies and then I, I cast them in the fissure there. But, like, there's so many, like, small pieces in between there that your mind, like, didn't even think to bring up, like, where would you cast it? Like, in your mind, you're like, and then I cast it. But then you get there and you have to figure out where and how to do that.

  Sam

  And it's not the same.

  Katie

  And, I mean, you know, you look.

  Sam

  And it's a weird thing. Like, you think, like, okay, yeah. So you look, you read online and it says, okay, these are the things you need to look for. And then you go out and you look for them. And it just doesn't ever quite 100% translate until – and everybody learns differently too. And that's the thing. It's like I am the type of person. I have to do something to learn it. Some people don't need to do that. Some people can literally read a book about something and master it right then and there. And God bless them. But I'm not that person. I have to do it, and I have to do it several times to understand. And so for me, I went out and I learned things. Trust me, like even my first time out, like I learned a ton of things and stuff about casting and dealing with wind and this, that and the other. And what definitely I learned what doesn't work. But then it wasn't until I went up to Oregon and hung out with a friend and we just went fishing for an evening. And she was showing me a few things. And like I all I learned was basically how to drift to fly and how to high stick. Like that's really all I learned. I didn't get a fish. I got a couple of strikes, though, which was super exciting. And suddenly that like opened up a million things. And then that allowed me to then the next time I went out by myself to actually feel like I was practicing something.

  Katie

  Like you're actually fishing and not just standing there and being like, and now I'm going to do step one of what I read. And you're actually out there in the experience and you feel like you're actively doing something, like forward progress toward your goal.

  Sam

  Exactly. And so I felt like I was legitimately fishing. I felt like I was still missing a ton of stuff. But it peeled back one layer of the onion and that was something I knew how to work on. And that I could, you know, it was one thing I'm like, okay, there's, you know, there's a hundred different ways to get a fly out there effectively. And like how to, you know, how you're making doing all this, but I could sit and focus. Like, I'm like, okay, I, this is, I know how to do this. So what I need to do now is find a place where I can do this, where it's like, so it starts also narrowing down locations for me where it may not be the best place to fish, But I'm going to find a lot more success because the one thing I know how to do, I can do in that place. So I'm more likely to catch a fish there than if I go to this other random place and try and cast or try and do all this other stuff that I really haven't developed and experienced yet. I'm going to have a lot higher likelihood of success just doing what I know how to do and starting to peel back those layers. And then once you kind of, I think that kind of broke the ice for me and it allowed me to find enough like success and, and knowledge to where then I would get strikes and I would make mistakes and I would kind of learn a few things. And, you know, I could get footholds and other little pieces of things and start, you know, just start getting feelers out into figuring out, like, different parts of the river and how, you know, how things react. And then, you know, so I went out and I found success. When I was out in Montana, I went and found a spot where I could just basically roll cast and high stick my fly down. And I got my little mountain whitefish that we talked about that I couldn't even net because it kept falling through. Through the net holes? Yeah. Like I scooped it up and I was like, my first fish. I was so excited. And I saw it fall through and it's all in slow motion. in my mind you know and so I see it falling through I'm like no so I like flip the net and kind of catch it again and it slows it down starts falling through again so I flip the net again you're just like keeping it in this yeah and my fly line's getting all tangled up of course like in the net and I managed to get like a hand underneath it and got like the world's most garbage picture but so I got that teeny little mountain whitefish and I'm like okay like things just as you do it more start to click but you kind of need that first measure of success to recognize that but then I got to go on a float trip with with my buddy he invited me out he's like I know you you're wanting to fly fish and learn this stuff come out on a float trip with me and I learned a ton more on that you know because they'd give me and he's and he's a buddy so he would always always do it a little more rudely which was much more fun front of the boat cast the front of the out okay okay all good natured but you know I learned more tips and then coming out here I mean we worked on a ton of stuff like little things with my casting just it was just and I got more exposure to what a good run looks like too that was huge today yeah okay and it's because it was like it was we were out long enough and we were in a variety of enough plate like water to where we could you know I you could show me it's like okay you don't want to cast anywhere in this this is too shallow this is too rough whatever it happens to be this is like this is an okay run you know there might be one spot and like we talked about this stuff you'd be like yeah I'd probably put like I'd throw two out there in case that you know happens to be one sitting there but I wouldn't sit and spend all day casting into this spot and then you know there's spots where you see and you're like that’s it.

  Katie

  yeah this is there's definitely a point that you hit where you you can like assess it's almost it's not like you're thinking about it like this but you see the running you're almost assessing it on a scale of one to ten for like how much effort you should put into it where there's some where you're like I am 100 sure there's there's at least one fish in this run so I'll stay I'll stay there for a little bit longer because I'm like confident that if I try hard enough and vary my, you know, cast enough that eventually I'll get it. And then there's other runs where you're like, this is like a two out of 10. There is a, you know, 10% chance that someone, that there's a fish in here. So I'll give myself like two casts. Yeah. And if it's there, it's there. If it's not, I'm not going to waste my time, like trying to make something out of nothing. And that's, that's, again, it's not like a conscious thing you're thinking, but you'll get to that point where you start looking at runs and you're just like, like three out of 10, six out of 10. Like, oh, that run, there's a fish. I'm going to be staying there for a long time. And then especially if you spot a fish, that's when it's like, I'm going to stay here until this fish gives me the yes or no. Like, if it leaves, I'll move. And if it's still there, I'm going to keep trying.

  Sam

  Yeah. And I started recognizing that. Like, we, you know, the first couple, the two cutthroats, you know, you were right there with me. You were walking me through stuff. And, you know, you're showing me spots. and then the brown you know we were kind of walking up you're like yeah this looks like a good spot there's probably something in here but then I kind of it handled that and then that second brown get that one all on your own yeah I got that one that one was and and I liked that one because it was one of those spots like I just finished I just kind of really fished out one run I wasn't seeing any success there so I kind of moved up and I just saw this one spot and it was and it was got a good feeling about it and it was like a it was like a three or four out of ten all right but I was like you know I'll throw a couple in there was just a little small spot it just slowed down enough and and threw a couple in there I'm like no I'm like okay I'll throw one more and all of a sudden that dry disappeared so we didn't get you didn't get any on the dries today did you no it was all on the droppers and that was the that was that second brown and I was stoked on I'm like you know same thing I saw that I recognized kind of what we had talked about and I was able to apply that and got me a dang fish much to my surprise

  Katie

  did that feel like better than the other three today because you were standing by yourself and like every like 100% of what happened was like decisions that you made actions that you took and you know no help

  Sam

  I don't I don't even like saying it felt better but there was a sense of pride associated with it like like better is not like saying it felt better is not the right word because it's a different experience it's it's like one is like an excitement and a sense of learning which is awesome that's that's one thing this was like this was an excitement and like a pride

  Katie

  like like the journey and the destination like you finally got there and you're like I this is what I was working toward and I've you know the culminated in this fish right here.

  Sam

  Exactly. And it's very much like, yeah, it's just a different experience. It's not better, not worse, but it was exciting. And, you know, I was super, super proud to have got that. And then I caught a couple of trees, caught a lot of trees. Likewise. And sticks. We both spent a good chunk of fly money today.

  Katie

  Every time I go fishing and I'm losing flies, I've got a running money tally in my mind. Every single time. And I'm like, this isn't healthy. Why am I doing this? But today I'm just like, I'm up to $16, okay?

  Sam

  Well, knock on wood, we could have been fishing streamers all day or something.

  Katie

  I did fish streamers a little bit today.

  Sam

  Towards the end. At least we weren't losing. At least we were losing like $6 flies versus, you know, at least the ones I had were probably like, yeah, the $3.

  Katie

  They were between $2 and $3 probably.

  Sam

  Yeah.

  Katie

  Do you want me to make you feel really happy right now?

  Sam

  Oh, dear.

  Katie

  I've never thought to turn my net inside out when a fish goes through it and like catch it again on the other side.

  Sam

  Really?

  Katie

  Yeah, no. I always, I always, like when it goes through, I always just kind of, you know, I just set my net in the water and like reach under and grab the fish and, you know, try to basically try to get the hook out while it's in the water. You know, I was like, it's, that's kind of the moment for me where I'm like, I'm not getting a picture of this fish. If it makes it through the hole, I'm just going to unhook it and just let it go on its way. And I've, it's never once occurred to me that I could just like turn the net upside down and get it back in the net.

  Sam

  And it was like – it was almost – it was like I feel like the Benny Hill theme music should have been played. It was like humorous because it slipped through and it was just – okay, and there we go. Just like twisting it up. Like, oh my gosh, that poor fish thought he was going to see freedom. He did eventually.

  Katie

  I'm sad to say that a lot of the fish I catch are small enough to fit through those holes. I mean all the fish we got today were within the same, I don't know, 6 to 10-inch range.

  Sam

  I'm still not totally convinced that that second brown trout I caught was not the first one.

  Katie

  I think it's pretty high likelihood it was a different – they all just look that way. That's just how they all look.

  Sam

  Yeah. I mean, it was just funny. It was like – I'm like, yeah, this is exactly the same size as the last one.

  Katie

  So I know you've – so now you've caught rainbow. Just talking about the trout. It's not the whitefish. Yeah. Which is my favorite fish. between the rainbow, the brown, and the cutthroat, have you started developing a preference of, I like this because, either the pattern or the type of water you're finding them in? Are you starting to lean toward a type of trout?

  Sam

  I think I would need to fish for them in more of a variety of waters, more consistently to really do that. I grew up fishing rainbows, So there's a nostalgia for me with those. And also it's the biggest fish I've caught on the fly too, which is cool. The cutthroats are cool. Just because it's like the Colorado State. It's coming here. It's native. And it's the native fish.

  Katie

  None of the other trout that we're going to be catching this weekend are native.

  Sam

  And so I think that's cool. There's a unique list. But then I wouldn't necessarily say that's a favorite. Because if I went to another state and was catching their native fish, I would be just as excited about that.

  Katie

  It's because it was here in the setting, not objectively the fish itself.

  Sam

  Yeah. And then what we talked about, too, just the name of it is cool.

  Katie

  You thought it was an aggressive businessman.

  Sam

  Well, yeah. And again, I say it's because of how it's spelled. Cutthroat, as one word, it means aggressive and tenacious.

  Katie

  We'll take down the competition.

  Sam

  And so that's what I thought. That's what I thought. I thought it was like a cutthroat trout was maybe like – and, you know, again, I'm still learning about this stuff. So I thought maybe it was like, okay, it's like a bigger, more aggressive trout. Like you hear cutthroat trout. You imagine like, oh, man, those are the trout that like go after like mice in the river. And like, you know, they're like really serious carnivores. I'm like, ah, kind of like –

  Katie

  That's so funny because that like never crossed my mind. And I think of them as being like, oh, they're usually the little delicate ones. They usually get out-competed by all the other non-native species. And I think it's funny that I'm just picturing a cutthroat, but gigantic. And they do get big.

  Sam

  Yeah.

  Katie

  But I don't think they have that same reputation. It's like a brown trout is what's got that reputation of it'll eat smaller fish. And it gets really big and just grizzled old brown trout. And that's just not what comes to mind with cutthroats.

  Sam

  But you say the name cutthroat trout. And how it's spelled is one word. That's what it gets to me. But, you know, and I'm like, so what do they call it? And you're like, well, you see the red right there? Look at it. I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. It's a cutthroat trout, which bothers me because it should be three words. Should be three words. Take it up with the authorities. Take it up. Colorado Fishing Game. I'm going to need to talk to you about this. I tagged you guys on Instagram today. You owe me. But that was just cool to learn. That was one of those cool things. Like I said, I love learning new things. I love just getting more in-depth on that. And the Browns are cool. I really like the Browns too. Just because their pattern is really cool. They've got that kind of yellowish. And then the bright red spots. And the second one, I do think they were different ones because I looked at the pictures later. But the second one, they were just like, I mean, they were like polka dots. They were big. And for a very small fish, they were really big. And they were just bright red. And it's just such a cool looking fish and a cool pattern. You know, so they've all got their own unique things. And I'm sure I'll develop probably more to do with, like, where I end up fishing them and things like that. more the land that the the landscape rather than the fish itself but I think I'd need more time fishing that because you know we were fishing for the we were fishing for the cutthroats and it was very kind of wooded it was close in this smaller stream we're fishing for the browns in a wide open bigger stream and which was the the runs were a lot more evident there was a lot more places to fish those you know you you had a lot more lanes to fish those

  Katie

  yeah there were more places to stand and access them for the for the cutthroat section it's pretty much like you stand you have to stand right here and if you get a little too close to that run it's blown out you're gonna go ahead and move up to the next one and with all those trees overhanging there's not much you can do

  Sam

  it's a it's a lot more it was a lot more difficult and I had to say a lot more technical where we were fishing for the cutthroats, then you have a lot more leeway where we were fishing for the browns. And, you know, one's not bad. But I feel like, again, I'd have to fish them all. You know, fish for browns in a more technical environment. Fish for cutthroats in a more open environment and, like, kind of learn about them and how they – and, again, you know, I caught four little guys. You know, I want to see how they fight and how they, you know, how they act and how they react into different flies and this and that and the other. And there's a lot to, there's a lot to learn. And I think, you know, once I, once I get some more experience under my belt, once I reel in a few more fish and get them in the net, I'll start developing a favorite, I'm sure.

  Katie

  I'm excited to see what you think about the brook trout tomorrow. If we do get some tomorrow, which we're trying, we're going to go to the Arkansas and fish for whatever we get out of there, rainbows or browns, and then stop on the way home if we can get some brook trout and they should be in their spawning colors right now so they should be like extra bright okay and I think objectively that brook trout are what I find to be the prettiest they tend not to get as large as the other three in general

  Sam

  so I mean the bar's set pretty low already for me but

  Katie

  they get that big they get as big as what we got today but like I feel like I feel like they often are not appreciated as much just because they don't get as you're not gonna especially around here like there are trophy brook trout areas but even a trophy brook trout is not gonna be comparable to like a trophy brown trout like that's not the same they're not in the same category but I think they have the prettiest colors and I'm more a sucker for colors than size generally because I don't know if the colors are good you can catch 10 fish and get to see them all and they're all beautiful but like you look at catch a big fish every so often it's like super exciting when it happens but if you're relying on that to be excited about it it's not going to happen very often if you can like really appreciate what they look like you get to get excited every time one comes in

  Sam

  now do brook trout and and this is just me again on the name thing are brook trout typically found in like smaller streams and things like that

  Katie

  I would like this is not a scientific answer but like I find in general yes that if I go if I go to like a mountain stream and just look in and see that there's fish in there and take a cast I am assuming that it's brook trout I guess or cutthroats you find some like small cutthroats in mountain streams but like where we were today and one like kind of a larger deeper pool stuff like that I'm I'm expecting to find things like browns and rainbows but if I end up in one of those small mountain streams it always just seems to be brook trout and I don't find brook trout in like the larger rivers as much

  Sam

  see I almost wonder if that's how they got their name like I mean it's a brook trout and you say brook it's typically a smaller stream and you know again this is just me speculating completely but yeah that's interesting and and probably that there's honestly that's probably like a good chance why they don't get as big either because they're in smaller smaller habitat

  Katie

  well I'd also guess and again this is just me guessing but like I have caught brook trout in larger rivers where I'm not expecting to but because they don't get as big if there are bigger trout in the larger body of water like let's say there's big brown trout big A brown trout will eat small fish. Yeah, so I would expect the brook trout to get taken out first if they're generally a little bit smaller. Like a rainbow might be able to hold its own against a brook trout.

  Sam

  You're in the wrong part of town. You're about to get wrecked.

  Katie

  And I also find generally that if you've got – there's a lot of places that have browns and rainbows.

  Sam

  Yeah.

  Katie

  But I find a lot of the time that brook trout are by themselves. Like if you find a small stream that has brook trout, it's like they're all brook trout. Okay. And like even where we were today, like where we were up at the top was pretty much all cutthroats. And then we came down, we caught only browse. There are rainbows down there, but I don't think they're as common. But sometimes they do seem to separate out like that where you're not catching a variety. And my favorite places are the ones where you don't know what you're going to catch. There's like two or three different species. And so every time you hook into one, it's like you're just like, oh, what is it? You know?

  Sam

  Well, yeah, it just adds the, it's one more element of interest and excitement and suspense kind of as you're bringing it in. And it's one of the coolest things I always think about fishing too is, you know, whether it's fly fishing, whether it's, you know, spin reel, whatever it is. You hook that fish and you really never know what size it is because you're reeling it in. And some of those small fish, they got big fight. and some of those big fish they don't always you know sometimes they just let you reel them in it's crazy and and so it's always kind of exciting you know when that you get that first glimpse of either you know when they if they're staying under the water when they jump in

  Katie

  especially if it's bigger than you thought you're like whoa look at that that's a great feeling

  Sam

  and so you can make some assumptions you know typically if you're like like fighting to get something in likelihood is it's probably bigger but you just you never know and so it's it's always so exciting I just think fish are fish are cool man fish are super super cool

  Katie

  I know you said that like when you're going forward you're kind of excited to see if you know if they fight differently and like just pick up on those intricacies yeah the one fish so some I mean I've noticed a little bit of difference between the trout species but did you notice a difference with your white fish that it fought differently because I find that when I hook a whitefish, it feels like there's a brick on the bottom of the river and the line isn't doing much except slowly moving around left to right. It's not doing jumps and things like that. You can usually tell that it's a whitefish and not a trout.

  Sam

  Yeah, it definitely wasn't like the trout that were like, whoo, all over the place. It felt like it should be a lot bigger. Yeah. It kind of had that feel of like a big fish that was stained under the water. It's like trying to pull away rather than really fight. It's just trying to pull you away. And so I actually expected it to be a lot bigger. I pulled it out. I'm like, oh, that's not going to take me.

  Katie

  It's kind of bittersweet because on one hand, there's always fun to feel like you're fighting a big fish. But then it's always – I feel like the white fish are usually smaller than they feel like they are.

  Sam

  Yeah. So I definitely do remember that. I don't totally remember everything about catching it. But I do remember thinking like – because I had hooked a couple of them and I caught a glimpse of them before. I couldn't quite get them in the net. And I'm pretty sure they were all whitefish. And they all kind of felt that same – it felt like it was a bigger fish fighting me for longer rather than like – it's like – it feels like trout almost. They fight hard. They're aggressive. They're fast. They're all over the place, and then they burn out a little bit.

  Katie

  Yeah, yeah. I would agree with that.

  Sam

  Versus that one was like, yeah, I'm in for the long haul. I'm going to wreck you.

  Katie

  It's like the tortoise and the hare. Like the trout, the trout's the hair. They're just like jumping all over the place. And the whitefish is like, I'm going to pace myself here. I don't know if you've ever done any walleye fishing, but they remind me of walleye, the way they fight. It feels like you hooked into a log that's slowly drifting downstream, like bouncing off the bottom. And you're kind of just trying to pull in what feels like dead weight. And the trout never feel like dead weight. Like you can really feel them thrashing.

  Sam

  Yeah, they're thrashing and jerking around. And, you know, if you catch ones the size I took down, monsters like those, you pretty much just set the hook. You yank the whole fish out of the water and catch it with your net. Yeah, I think I did catch one of yours with a net today. I think the first one, that's what happened.

  Katie

  Oh, I was remembering the first brown you caught.

  Sam

  Was it the first?

  Katie

  It was like airborne, and I just reached out and grabbed it.

  Sam

  It was that first brown. It's like I set the hook. kind of I pulled back a little bit and to start pulling in and it was kind of like as it jumped to and it was up in the air and I remember yeah you did catch that one oh my gosh that was funny

  Katie

  yeah it definitely happens to small you're gonna launch more small fish in your life hopefully most of them land in the water and not like in the grass

  Sam

  fingers crossed unless I'm eating them but I hopefully I'm not eating small fish that's a whole different thing right that was and that's the other thing that's actually something I kind of thought was interesting when I first started fishing is because I like before I started fly fishing I never was really understood the catch and release thing because effectively I'm just always catching stocked rain big old stock rainbows with a rod and reel and the whole point of us going out there is because we're going to be eating them that night so you know we catch a limit go back grill them up and it's just it's so different again with fly fishing too one because you're you're trying you're checking out different species and this and that and you know you it's more about the experience again like we going back to what we talked about earlier it's more about the experience than the end result I feel like with fly fishing with rod and reel fishing there's some experience like it's you don't have that experience yeah it's peaceful it's relaxing you know you sit back with a beer and a book and it's great like I love I love it like that but but fly fishing again it's it's all about that experience it's not necessarily about yeah it's about catching the fish like I mean like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna blow smoke up you know up at everyone's ass and like be like you know it really doesn't matter if I passed on three fish today yeah there we go I saw him there you passed on three yeah you know it wasn't you've seen the you've seen the lunkers I catch

  Katie

  well it's like you like you said before where it's it's that fish that you caught all by yourself where it's almost like the fish is an affirmation that you did the right thing it's not the fact that you're holding the fish like yeah you know you're holding the fish it's like it's nice and you look at it you put it back but it's

  Sam

  well you can't really look at it my hands are too big you can't see the whole thing you just see the line going into one end of my hand and then maybe a tail sticking out the back

  Katie

  right but it's like it's not the it's not necessarily the fish itself especially for the smaller like if you catch a big one sure you might be really excited about that particular fish but for the fish today I think it was less the the actual fact that you're holding a fish and more just like what I did was correct because I am now holding a fish so that like is rewarding

  Sam

  it's like my first grade diploma kind of you did it I just graduated first grade I got my gold star teacher shook my hand now I can move on to second grade and learn new things you know yeah it was it was definitely a lot of it was that yeah affirmation that it's it's it's the checkpoint you know it's like okay I've reached I've reached the checkpoint in my in my game now I can you know now I can move on to the next step kind of a thing

  Katie

  did you have any either like new questions that popped up today or questions that you had had previously that you answered while you were out there?

  Sam

  There was a lot of, I mean, a lot of it, like what we talked about earlier, was recognizing spots on the water. And it clarified a lot of that stuff. And I think some of what we talked about even with that was, like, okay, you know, I always kind of assumed I should be casting into the still pools. But it's like, yes, no, but kind of on the edge of them. And it was just refining. That was the biggest thing for me, I think, was refining where I should be casting, where I should be looking for fish, what to look for in runs. That was huge.

  Katie

  Not to cut you off, but I also feel like before you have that experience, you might feel like it's more black and white. Do you cast there or do you not? And it's more like, what are the odds that there's a fish there? And it's more of like a spectrum of, you know, there's places that aren't great, but they're still worth a cast or two. Versus just like, do you cast there or do you not?

  Sam

  What you were talking about, the subconscious rating system. It's like, okay, that's a three caster.

  Katie

  Yeah.

  Sam

  That's just like, okay, I'm going to toss one while I'm walking up the street.

  Katie

  Yeah, and if there's something in there, great. If not, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. But anyway.

  Sam

  Yeah, I'm trying to think if there was any real specific questions. And I feel like I was asking you stuff along the way.

  Katie

  And I like that. It's just like so easy to work with somebody who wants to – who has questions themselves instead of you just being like, by the way, do this. By the way, do that. It almost feels like – not mean, but I don't want to just be like, oh, so your cast is bad. Here's how we can fix it. Like I want someone who's like, hey, this doesn't feel right. Can I improve on this? You know?

  Sam

  Yeah. And I mean, the good and bad thing about fly fishing is you learn pretty quickly when you're doing something wrong. Like it becomes pretty – Bad stuff happens. evident like and you you know when you have to then retie flies a lot

  Katie

  or untie knots a lot I didn't see you untying too many knots today I feel like you had

  Sam

  yeah because I got really fast once we once we switched out the leader that was and you know what that was huge that was a huge learning thing because most of the places I've fished were pretty like wide open I'm trying to do pretty long casts to get in different sections and long floats it wasn't as tight as we were when we were chasing the the cutthroats and dear lord yeah once we once we took that down and I was able to actually get some fly line out of the out of the tip of my rod rather than like

  Katie

  I feel like you were using like a 10 foot 11 foot leader at one point today

  Sam

  oh it was just because it was originally well because what's that okay what's section again called

  Katie

  I don't actually know what it's called but I was saying 

  Sam

  a perfection loop?

  Katie

  oh yeah yeah so basically the it's like a thick piece of mono line that's nail knotted to the fly line and it has a perfection loop in the end of it so you can just do loop to loop every time you attach a leader but yours was like a foot long yeah I feel like it should have been like three to four inches long

  Sam

  and so yeah we shortened that down and then I had like a brand new nine foot it was a I mean I think I'd fish like three times on it so it was cut down a little bit but it was like a nine foot leader so there's probably I mean just for the argument's sake let's call it an you know eight foot of that leader left

  Katie

  which is not like that's not inherently bad it was bad for that area like the leader's length really needs to match like it does also go with the rod you know like the rod comes into account when you're picking your leader length but it's also if you're a tight spot like that and you're only you've only got leader to cast it's gonna get caught in the wind you can't you don't really have much control over it and it's just unwieldy

  Sam

  yeah and I mean it's effectively we could get about three inches of fly line out to manage so you know there's a little bit out but any more than that and there's just no way to manage it because it was I mean it we had a canopy like there was a full canopy of trees above us like it wasn't it wasn't like every so often we'd find like a nice open spot where if I was in the center I could I could overhand cast but it was a lot of kind of pseudo roll casting

  Katie

  but like but not well because roll casting kind of relies on having a little bit of fly line

  Sam

  exactly that weight to roll over and so it was honestly more it was almost like I was just jack pulling for for some of it like I would kind of get enough line out to where I could manage the manage it and I would like flip it up in there and just like let it float down

  Katie

  and that happens sometimes I mean sometimes it's so tight like choked with willows and stuff that yeah like there's not much you can do yeah you know you can only have so short a leader and but today was like a good once you got it down I feel like it it went a lot better yeah that wasn't manageable

  Sam

  you know and the other thing the other thing I wanted to learn and that we took on was just some additional knots and I learned all about the because up until then I'd been fishing I'd have a leader I'd use up that leader until it got too yeah so you learned about tippet today 

  Katie

  yeah you hadn't done line to line 

  Sam

  and so yeah I'd never done line to line and because I would just man I can't I cringe to think how many leaders I've tossed at this point but I should have just been tying on to because you know I just use it until it

  Katie

  so what did you think tippet was for because Do you have some?

  Sam

  I thought it was effectively for just making leaders.

  Katie

  Well, I mean, it is.

  Sam

  Or doing little drop rigs or this or that.

  Katie

  Oh, I see. Yeah, like if you were just tying on an additional piece of line to your point fly.

  Sam

  And I kind of figured there was probably, you know, to some extent I kind of figured there was something I was either missing or like, you know, there was ways to do that. And again, I didn't know it, so I just bought a lot of leaders. And when they got. I mean, it works. When I looked at them, I'm like, yeah, that's getting a little fat. Let's put on the new leader.

  Katie

  That adds up really quickly.

  Sam

  Oh, yeah, it does.

  Katie

  Those pieces of monofilament line are not cheap.

  Sam

  Yeah. And so that was actually a big learning. Which is funny because, you know, somebody tells you something, like you talk about a surgeon's knot. I know what a surgeon's knot is. But out of context, I didn't relate that to the knot. I already knew. But when then you showed it to me, like I saw you tying the knot and you're like, yeah, this is a surgeon's knot. I'm like, oh.

  Katie

  Like you're assuming that in the context of fishing, it means something else or something like that.

  Sam

  Well, it just doesn't even click. Like, you know, you say, okay, you know, we're doing fishing and this is a surgeon's knot. Like, I don't think like, oh, I already know a surgeon's knot because it's a completely different thing. It just never even comes up in my mind until I see the knot tied. And I'm like, okay, okay, it's all coming back now. And so that was a big thing. Just starting to learn better ways to use the rod, the tippet, the, you know, different stuff to tie on. Learning about the dry float and that stuff was great. Oh, the dry shake? The dry shake, yeah.

  Katie

  You should get some of that.

  Sam

  I definitely need to get some of that. Because there was a lot of times, too, where, like, I'm sitting there, and I'm, like, just false casting a bunch, and then I'm, like, blowing out my fly just so I can put some more floating on it. And especially, like, in those spots with the Browns where the water was a bit more aggressive, you know, we were throwing some pretty light dry flies, you know, with the droppers. And between the aggressive water and then they would just go waterlogged. They just weren't quite enough unless they had a decent amount of floating on them. And, you know, both times those fish struck, they drug them under and needed to re-up. And the gel just wasn't handling it.

  Katie

  Yeah, no, that dry shake is pretty necessary at times. Because sometimes your fly will just get sucked under and whatever. It just requires like a shirt sleeve or something. But there's like a point where you tip over the edge where that fly is now like waterlogged. Yeah, and you can't do much about it without actually drying it out. Were either of the two fish you caught before this trip on a dry fly? Or have they all been on nymphs?

  Sam

  Both were on dry flies.

  Katie

  Oh, they both were.

  Sam

  One was on a drake.

  Katie

  You caught the whitefish on a dry fly too?

  Sam

  Yeah. Oh, interesting. It was like sundown. And it was one of those moments where I was really proud of myself because I was watching the bugs. And I'm like, I've caught one of those. And I put the drake on. It was like a brown or a green drake or something. And I got a bunch of strikes that night. And I almost got another one in the net, too. But it was all in those drakes, so those were all on dries. And they were just – it's just the spot I was in, there was a lot of bugs. They were really feeding on the surface. And then the – no, the rainbow was on that – the white claw fly. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that was that.

  Katie

  So that one's on a dry, though.

  Sam

  No, that one's – is that considered a streamer?

  Katie

  It looked like one, yeah.

  Sam

  It's kind of a – it's like a weird – well, it's his own fly type, that random dude.

  Katie

  It looks like an unweighted streamer, like just kind of a big fluffy thing. But I would assume it's mimicking a bait fish.

  Sam

  Well, yeah, and I remember I talked to that dude, gave him a – I gave up a section of the river because I was like, I don't know this river. I can fish anywhere. It's going to be all the same to me. So I'm like, go ahead, swim. know here there's a couple of white claws in the cooler if you want them give him his girlfriend some and yeah like an hour later you know I was kind of I was kind of coming back up to probably get some snack out of my car or something and he waved me over and he's like hey man you know I tied this my own personal personal fly that I tie all the time I fish it here constantly and they'll just hammer the hell out of it he's like the rainbows here are like serious meat eaters you need like either something that looks like a mouse or a bait fish like and and lo and behold next morning was casting that I'm like okay I'll put this on cast it like third you know third cast in hammered on that rainbow just hammered down on it and I was I pulled him in I'm like this is not a small fish yes yeah I call it so I refer to that one forever as the white claw fly received in trade for two lime white claws

  Katie

  you should reach out to that guy and see if you and get the name like he added to that fly

  Sam

  yeah he I like he said he was gonna like look me up or something and like send me a message but I never never heard back from him and I was kind of bummed because I'm like I feel like I just want to like I want to thank him for that and like because he because he walked me through some stuff too and you know he's like okay this is how you want to fish this fly and you know give it a nice long cast give it a big old man downstream and just let it like swing and kind of swim around and just watch it and you know you'll see you'll feel it when when they hammer on because I mean that's a big fly that's not you know that's not small fish coming after that thing so but yeah it's been it's been a fun time what

  Katie

  has it is there anything that you've noticed has been different than what you expected like something specific that you were surprised by coming from just a couple months ago just hearing about it to actually you know getting quite a few fish in the net

  Sam

  honestly like how teeny flies can get always blows me away like and I don't even want to say that surprised me because like you go in the shop like legitimately using those flies just feels weird I'm like this is so teeny how am I ever going to catch something with this

  Katie

  but then you're surprised when fish actually see them but the dry flies are hard the really really teeny dry flies are hard to use it's no harder to use a tiny nymph than a a larger one yeah but the dry flies sometimes you put not like an actual indicator but there are flies that are small enough that it's like well this is the dry fly I want to use but I had to tie a second dry fly on this rig and I'm going to use that as my indicator where if I see a fish rise within you know six to eight inches of of that fly I'm going to assume it's on my other one because you can't see it

  Sam

  that's the that's one of the things I learned that that we kind of talked about too and I mean you know this is probably obvious to a lot of people but you know I'm I'm watching this fish and I'm and you know it looks like he's just swimming around my dry fly and you're like no he's definitely hooked and you need to reel that crap in

  Katie

  oh like he was eating your nymph and you're like oh look at him just dancing around under that

  Sam

  exactly well I was like it just looked like he was swimming around and you're like if he is that close he's eating your nymph

  Katie

  yeah it's not that he was that close not just the fact that he was that close it was the fact that he did that that big flash yeah yeah yeah that was him basically striking or yeah so the fish will like kind of sit in their lane you know they'll be eating food as they come down but they have to kind of go left and right to get in the lane of the food as it as it washes down so if you see a fish right as your fly goes past it kind of like dark to the side and and flash there's a very good chance that it was doing that to get to your fly and like sometimes it's not you know it might have been another piece of food was coming down right at that time but you like I always set the hook if I see that happen

  Sam

  it's worth the risk you know

  Katie

  yeah and and you're then your dry fly to go under too so it's not necessarily that you set the hook right when you see that because it might still be a little early they might still be moving to get to the fly but when I see that flash underneath my dry I immediately look at the dry and wait for it to go under because that's when they actually have it in their mouth so it's more just like an indication like get ready because your dry flight is probably about to go underwater

  Sam

  yeah that makes that makes a lot more sense and I mean just with like with anything there's just so much constantly to like

  Katie

  but those are so fun to like focus on and that's what I love about like where you are right now because it's things that again like I take for granted and it's fun to watch someone else have that like realization like gotcha oh yeah that makes sense it's just like fun to relive you know we all went through that at some point where that wasn't obvious yeah and then at some point that'll be obvious to you too where you see it and you're like how would you not like how would you not assume that that flies or that fish is eating your fly

  Sam

  yeah yeah and hopefully next one will be bigger

  Katie

  maybe tomorrow maybe maybe tomorrow we'll you'll be to that that next tier and maybe get some bigger fish tomorrow

  Sam

  we'll see we'll see I'm just you know I'm just excited to be out and bigger fish or not and I think that's what we were talking about earlier where it's you know you're like okay well where do you want to go here's some different options this is what I'll be like I'm like you don't, I'm still at the point where I really don't need to catch a big fish. I just want to experience it and see some action and like feel them striking and versus like, I would rather at this point, especially I would rather, even, even if I don't get them in the net, I'd rather have like 10 or 20, fish, you know, striking, you know, small ones, whatever. And like learning that stuff and then you know go all day it's kind of slow but then we catch like you know big old what was the hog Johnson Johnson I don't know maybe for hog Johnson I'd have a morning day we'd exception for hog Johnson but you know I mean I'd rather just I'd rather see action all day and even if it's smaller than you know have a have a long day where you know it's like an hour between every strike we get you know we're lucky

  Katie

  yeah they may be bigger but it's a lot easier to stay engaged if you feel like you're if you're like oh I'm the problem I'm just like I'm not setting the hook yeah like I can I can fix this this is something I can I can fix my hook setting to make this work but if you're not getting any strikes you're like I can change my fly but I don't really know what to change it to and I kind of feel hopeless yeah that's how I found my elk hunt this year I was like just nothing's talking 

  Sam

  well you have nothing to play off of nothing to work 

  Katie

  with no feedback no feedback except this isn't right but like no feedback apart from that

  Sam

  it's like okay is it my casting is it my nymph is it my dry fly is it the place I'm picking is it the you know did I spook them somehow like there's so many open questions whereas if you just get just a little bit of feedback one way or the other at least and that's what it was like for the for the with elk hunting for me same exact same thing it's just it took a long time before I had that feedback to feel like I was really making progress with my learning

  Katie

  yeah it feels so much better to be like well I messed that up but next like next time I'll get it right yeah but if yeah if you're just like watching drifts and nothing's happening it's like I don't know where to start like am I in the wrong spot

  Sam

  and you're looking at it you're like okay like am I not  mending and like correctly or am I mending and like jerking the fly or this or that like even just within that and you're watching this drift it's like okay or is there just no fish there one way or the other

  Katie

  yeah but do you have any like specific goals for tomorrow tomorrow in particular besides trying to get the other two species yeah a weekend long grand slam

  Sam

  Yeah, it'd be cool to get the other two species. I think just getting a little more precise and a little more technical with my casting would be nice. Just so I'm spending more time fishing and less time dicking around with my line and my rod.

  Katie

  I feel like you're doing very well for how long you've been doing it, especially with the drifts. like I feel like you're casting it's still you know when I watch you cast it's it's not bad but it's still clear that you're still getting your getting a new flow you're figuring out what's comfortable for you but I feel like once your fly's on the water you actually do a pretty good job of of like managing the drifts okay which is you know some people really struggle with that

  Sam

  and I do need I would like to work on my mending a little bit more I might I'm I'm okay at it but 50 percent of the time I'm like jerking the fly when I do it

  Katie

  that that will keep happening I mean even when you're a lot better at mending sometimes your dry fly just goes flying when it happens and I mean you get you try it again and it happens

  Sam

  yeah it's just what happens cast again yeah I'm trying to you know I just getting more precise with my casting would be good again you know just solely for the purpose of like spending more time fishing and you know it would be nice to I don't know just get get in the groove a little bit more and, and try and, see more action, get a few more fish. I mean, you know, it's again, slow process. My standard, my standards are set pretty low and it's, it's pretty much

  Katie

  after today, after today's extreme success? I mean, again, I feel like the bar is set. It's at the top right now.

  Sam

  I mean, you know, it's really, I just want to be out fishing, you know, and I want to, it's a lot like hunting for me in that, you know, when I'm hunting, you know, say I'm deer hunting, I got, you know, my first year I got a spike, like the next one I want to get, as long as it's a forky, I'm good. Or, you know, as long as it's a little bit bigger, a little bit of a step up, as long as I'm progressing with anything. And with fishing, it's, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a bigger, bigger brown trout or whatever, but as long as I'm progressing, so if I'm catching something new, if I'm improving on a skill, if I feel like maybe I was just more effective on the water one way or the other, I'll be happy. You know, again, like it all comes down to damn straight I want to catch a bunch of fish. That would be badass, you know, catch a big old monster and, you know, fight him and fall into the water and then hold him up and then my dad and my brother take a picture and then I get beaten in an alley. And, oh, wait, sorry, I had a moment. I mean, but, you know, it's exciting. You want to have that moment, like that movie moment, you know, where you're casting.

  Katie

  Were you, like, picturing yourself from the outside? 

  Sam

  Oh, yeah, I totally. 

  Katie

  Oh, man, like, you know, I'm watching myself from, like, an aerial view right now fighting this fish.

  Sam

  Oh, yeah, sometimes, like, and there are those moments, like, especially when you get, like, a really good cast, you're like, that probably looked pretty sick. Yeah. Let me dust off the shoulders here little bit

  Katie

  well do you want to before we wrap up just like plug all your stuff because we didn't really talk about your podcast at all yet

  Sam

  yeah so I again as I mentioned I have been only hunting for about four years brand new hunter and I started a podcast uh three and a half four years ago

  Katie

  I thought it was longer than that I didn't realize that it was just three or four years ago

  Sam

  yeah some somewhere around there the brands the original brand has been around for about five years and then you know I tried tried blogging for a year and that didn't work out well so I started a podcast because I like talking but so I really I really started a podcast because I was getting into hunting and I only knew a couple of people like I knew like one dude and I just wanted an well one I wanted to kind of chronicle what I was doing and share my my experience and my journey but to I just want an excuse to talk to cool people and be able to reach out and learn from them and you know there's not a ton of formats where you can walk up to someone like Christy Titus or Remi Warren or Jim Shockey and be like hey can I ask you pointed questions about this thing I want to learn for the next hour can I just can I just get free info from you for

  Katie

  exactly

  Sam

  an hour and a half and and I figured crazy you know if I'm looking for this, there had to be other people out there. And if, you know, I can just let other people be a fly on the wall for these awesome conversations I'm having, that's great. And so, you know, I'd started this podcast and, you know, I think as of the time we're recording this, I'm right around like 168, 170 and got a bunch of bonus episodes. We talk and it's a little bit of everything. It's just anything I find interesting. And I find a lot of stuff interesting. So whether it, you know, I tend to focus mostly on backcountry big game hunting, kind of western elk hunting, that kind of stuff, mule deer. But every so often I'll have an episode on turkey. I'll have an episode on bear hunting. We'll talk a lot about fly fishing.

  Katie

  Do you time it at all with, like, what's going on? Because I know a lot of podcasts that cover both will be, like, in the summertime we're talking about fishing.

  Sam

  I try to. Okay. It just never quite seems to always do that. I mean, it's also, like, guest availability. I mean, I talk a lot about elk hunting before elk season because that's my biggest passion. But, you know, I just like finding interesting people, like finding cool stories, like finding good information and sharing that. And, you know, I mean, I've talked with some incredible people. And, you know, young folks, old folks, men, women, I mean, anyone and everyone across the board from all experience levels, from all types of hunting, from all types of the outdoors, motivational stuff, tactical stuff. And so the podcast used to be called Living Country in the City. Now it's called The Wild Initiative. Got out of the city, thankfully.

  Katie

  Not just living country in the country, which doesn't have the same.

  Sam

  Oh, my gosh. The amount of jokes and people suggesting that. It was just like, oh, you're going to have to call living country in the country now. I'm like, yeah. 

  Katie

  I'm sorry. I just made that joke. 

  Sam

  Oh, no, no. 

  Katie

  I was like, I'm real witty. 

  Sam

  But, yeah, I mean, you can find it. Got the website, thewildinitiative.com. I mean, pretty much you type the wild initiative into just about anything I will pop up, whether it's anything on social media or YouTube or anywhere podcasts can be found.

  Katie

  Wherever you get your podcasts.

  Sam

  Yeah, what do I always say? Or search for The Wild Initiative on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe. Yeah, but that's me. You can find me on there sharing just about everything. You can make sure you head on over to my Instagram page, Check out the massive fish I just posted up from today.

  Katie

  They don't even fit in the picture, really.

  Sam

  I mean, you know, it's like, you know, you can make a panorama and scroll. We had to actually take the panorama functionality from the iPhone. Yeah, head to tail.

  Katie

  That'd be kind of a funny thing to do, actually. Just get a really small fish, put panorama across it, like really close up.

  Sam

  Oh, I know what we're doing tomorrow.

  Katie

  Yeah, make our fish bigger.

  Sam

  Yeah, that's me.

  Katie

  All right. Well, we can probably sign off and we might still have time to watch everyone's through it. We talked about doing that tonight. All right. Awesome. Well, first in-person podcast. It was really fun.

  Sam

  There we go. I'm glad we did it.

  Katie

  All right. And that is all. As always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes, a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks. And you can find me on social media under my name, Katie Berger, on Go Wild or at Fish Untamed on Instagram. And I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye, everyone.

Note:

These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.

While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.

Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.