Ep 22: Pack Goats in Backcountry Fly Fishing, with Mike Raether
Mike Raether is a backpacker, fly fisher, hunter, and camper. He is the author of over 50 articles in national and regional magazines such as Bugle, Northwest Fly Fishing, and Montana Outdoors. Last spring, he published a fishing guide titled Flyfisher’s Guide to Northwest Montana’s Mountain Lakes. In this episode, we discuss the use of pack goats as a backcountry fly fishing aid. Mike covers how he uses his goat, the care required, and considerations for bringing a goat deep in the backcountry. I didn’t even know I was interested in using pack goats until I talked to Mike, and now I want to get one of my own. This is a must-listen if you like fishing the backcountry.
Mike’s blog, Life Under a Big Sky: www.mikeraether.com
Twitter @mikeraether
Email: mike@mikeraether.com
Flyfisher’s Guide to Northwest Montana’s Mountain Lakes book: https://www.amazon.com/Flyfishers-Guide-Northwest-Montanas-Mountain/dp/1940239117
The Pack Goat book: https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Goat-Pruett-Mionczynski-John/dp/0871088282
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show, I'm talking to Mike Raether, author of Fly Fisher's Guide to Northwest Montana's Mountain lakes. All right, welcome to episode number 22 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I am talking about a subject that I never knew I was interested in, but found out shortly into this conversation that it's something I definitely want to give a try at some point, and that is using Pat goats to access hard to reach areas to fly fish. Mike Rather is the author of a guidebook to fly fishing some of Montana's alpine lakes. And when he told me that I was already interested, but then he threw out the idea of talking about some other topics, and one of those he threw out was pack goats. And I knew pretty much nothing about pack goats, so I was intrigued. And once we started talking about it, I could not get enough of his stories and information. And as much as I don't mind carrying a little bit of weight in to go fishing, the idea of having a pack of goats to do the work for me and also keep me some company is pretty intriguing. So we get into, you know, how he uses his goat in the backcountry and the behavior, some funny stories, things like that, and then also what it's like to have a goat around the house as well. So even if you've never thought about using pack goats before, I think you'll really enjoy this one. I had a lot of fun talking to Mike and I actually plan on having him on again soon because as a fun conversation he had plenty of other topics that I'm now very interested in based on this conversation so without further ado here is my chat with Mike Rather. All right perfect I usually just start off by asking you a little bit about how you got a start in fishing.
Mike
Oh well I've I got my start in fishing before I can even hardly remember my start in fishing my dad used to take us my brother and I my little brother and I trout fishing on lakes and whatnot. He wasn't a fly fisherman, but we would rent a boat. You could rent a boat in those days and go row around the lake and catch lots of fish. So I found out later that my dad never, the night before he took us fishing, because we got an early start, he would never go to bed. He'd just stay up because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to wake up in the morning. I always wondered why he was so tired after we were done fishing. I mean, I know he did a lot of the rowing, but still, you know.
Katie
So how early were you guys getting out?
Mike
Oh, 4 a.m.
Katie
Okay. And what were you fishing for? And where did you grow up, by the way?
Mike
I grew up in Washington State, in North Seattle, basically, and then moved to a town called Snohomish about 30 miles north of Seattle.
Katie
Okay.
Mike
And where we were fishing was just for trout on lakes.
Katie
Okay. And was that just on spin gear, I assume?
Mike
Oh, yeah. Yeah, trolling, basically.
Katie
I feel like that's a lot of us got our start, you know I didn't the fly-fishing didn't come till much later for most of us at least. How did you transition over to fly-fishing?
Mike
Well a friend of mine introduced me to it when I was still living in Washington State He asked me if I'd never ever done it before and I said no I hadn't and so He introduced me to it and I liked it. We could there wasn't a fish to catch artists are hardly over there but I still enjoyed it and I ended up by well then I'm gonna make this happen a little bit better and I built my first fly rod and caught my first fish on it but it's interesting I was hooked from the first fish I think I was hooked better than he was hooked but I was casting I saw a trout just kind of working along the lily pads I was at a boat launch fishing off an old boat launch and this fish was was picking something off the water I couldn't tell what it was. He's kind of cruising the lily pads. And I just had a royal wolf on. So I thought, well, what the heck, you know, so I cast out where I figured he was going to be heading next, you know, pattern him a little bit and by golly, he ate it. That was a lot of fun. But other than that, they're really, you know, as far as stream fishing is concerned, we, it wasn't any good. And our lakes were our mountain lakes were pretty much fished out. I actually didn't do much fly fishing over there because it was more of an exercise of futility until I moved to Montana and then I really got into it.
Katie
Isn't that funny how I feel like most people when they first try fly fishing, the first time they catch a fish they kind of surprise themselves, even though they know what they're supposed to be doing, it's still a little bit shocking the first time it actually works. That's awesome. It sounds like you started building rods before you actually a lot in the water?
Mike
Well, yeah, as far as fly fishing is concerned, yeah, because he introduced me to it and I tried it a little bit with his rod and I thought, "Well, you know what? I need a decent rod." One of my pet peeves is that, well, I had a guy come into a fly shop last year with a friend of his and he was going to take his friend out and teach him how to fly fish and he said, "Well, what are they hitting?" That kind of thing, the question you always get. So I sold him some flies and I said, "Well, let me ask you about your outfit." So he told me, he had to, just, I don't remember what it was, but it's a super outfit, probably a thousand dollars with a fly rod, real line. And I said, well, what do you got for your buddy here? And he just had an old cheapo rod, you know? And I said, I got an idea for you. And he said, what's that? And I said, you give him your rod and you fish with his. Oh, no way, no way.
Mike
(laughing) But that's my pet peeve is that we, you know, somebody wants to fly fish. And so, you know, we get them a $50 outfit or something and then they don't stick with it. And we wonder why, well, you know, ever tried to cast a fly with a telephone pole and house wire fly line? I mean it's just it just doesn't work.
Katie
Well you know it's funny is that if you know if you've got a lot of experience you can probably make a $50 rod work just fine but if you're you know just getting started as much as I always say you know it doesn't take a thousand bucks to get started you can you can get started with you know a ride you buy down at Walmart but it's gonna be a lot easier for the person without a lot of skill to use that expensive rod you know well and actually catch something whereas the guy who has a lot of skill can probably make that kind of crappy setup work for the day without much of a problem.
Mike
That's true, that's true. But you want to start them off right if you can, especially if you're trying to convert them to fly fishing.
Katie
So what did you get started on? Did you kind of get the nice setup right away?
Mike
Well I built my first rod. So it was a Fenwick Blank and in those days it was all fiberglass, carbon fiber hadn't even been thought of yet. So I bought a Fenwick blank and then the rod, or the rod blank and then the handle and all that stuff and found out how to do it and put it together and it worked really good. It's a seven weight, nothing real fancy, just some scientific angler's line and an old Pfluger medalist reel. Somebody once told me you don't have to have a good reel because these fish aren't big.
Katie
Yeah, that's what I've heard. Once you get into some of the bigger species, like if you're going for saltwater, the reel suddenly matters a lot more, but for trout it kind of just sits there holding the line for you. It doesn't need to do much.
Mike
Yeah, mostly, yeah. But it depends on where you're fishing. Our rivers and lakes, we've got some pretty big trout in them. So I mean, if we're fishing the lakes, then they're all going to run 10, 12 inches or so and they're not going to take line generally. But the rivers, for example, the Clark Fork River is just, I can almost throw a rock and hit it from here. And there are some fish that'll go five or six pounds in that river. boy you better have a good drag.
Katie
So did you keep up with the rod building or get into fly tying? Did you like that kind of creative aspect of fly fishing as well?
Mike
I've done some rod building but I never really got into fly tying per se. Flies are pretty inexpensive and you want to make sure you're using good flies. But at the same time, I guess the reason I never got into fly fishing was was, somebody told me don't ever start because you'll never stop.
Katie
Yeah, you see the people who get really, really into fly tying and some of them just like stop fishing. They don't even care about that part anymore. They just want to tie the flies.
Mike
Right, exactly. Yeah, and I got enough hobbies that depend on being outside anyway. I don't need more hobbies that are going to take me away from being outside.
Katie
Sure. I kind of feel the same way about fly tie. I mean, I do tie occasionally, but I just built my first rod recently and I have to say I liked it more than fly tying and I think for me it was I like sticking with something for a bit and then seeing like an end result and and having that satisfaction of you know having put in quite a few hours to build it and I think flies are too fleeting for me like I you know I can churn out a couple in in just a couple minutes and I don't get the same reward having finished a fly as I did having finished a fly rod.
Mike
Right well there's a certain there's a certain romance with tying your own flies and then catching a fish on them you know that's that's pretty rewarding but to me it's the same reward that you'll get when you build your own fly rod too. You know, "Wow I built this rod and it works pretty good."
Katie
Yeah. Yeah you can loan it out to people and they won't lose it.
Mike
Hopefully. Hopefully, yeah.
Katie
So then what took you, because I know we're gonna be talking a lot about like the backcountry today, but what kind of drew you from you know your fishing routes to kind of wanting to get a little farther off the beaten path and and do more into the back country?
Mike
Well, I started in Montana over in North Central Montana and I was there for a couple of years. And then I moved over here to where I live now in St. Regis. And there's a number of fly shops here. So I thought, well, I'm gonna take a trip down to the local Outfitter and see what's going on because I pulled out a map and I looked at the map and I went, I saw all those Alpine jewels, you know, most of them a three mile hike or so. Just, so I went down and I said, "Hey, Joe." The fly guy, I said, "Hey, Joe, what about these mountain lakes?" And he says, "Well, what about it?" does anybody fish them? Oh, no, no, we all go to the river. Well, nobody fishes these mountain lakes. Are they any good? Oh, yeah, they're great. But, you know, we all go to the river because they're bigger fish. So I said to myself, well, Self, we're going to go to the lakes. And I did. And hardly anybody went and caught lots of fish. And it was just a good time. So that's how I got hooked on the backcountry thing. And I've always liked to camp anyway. So I just combined the two.
Katie
So have you kind of stuck with that? Is that, would you say that's your kind of like niche within the fly fishing world is trying to get way out away from people?
Mike
Well, yeah, I mean I like people fine, but in smaller doses. I don't like to look down the river and see a drip boat behind me and look up ahead and see another one.
Katie
Sure, yeah, I feel the same way. It's just a different feeling when you feel like someone's kind of breathing over your shoulder.
Mike
Right, yeah, and I meet a lot of guys that, well, who's, who launched today? Where'd want to be behind anybody because they figure they've already caught the fish or something I don't know.
Katie
Feels kind of like an assembly line at that point.
Mike
Yeah yeah.
Katie
So do you do primarily I know you wrote so I guess I'm kind of getting ahead of myself here but I guess I'll save that for for down the road but do you still primarily like the lakes more or do you also do like a lot of backcountry river stuff?
Mike
Primarily still water you know I'm really I'm really really fond of the lakes. It's just-- maybe it goes back to when I was a kid. I mean, my dad took us fishing, took us to a lake. We rented a boat. We went out. There was nobody around. And that was pretty cool. So being still water is and I like river fishing and stream fishing and stuff. And I still do some of that, a lot of it, actually. But as soon as the mountain lakes open up, I'm heading up in the hills.
Katie
It's a pretty different experience. And I think a lot of people hit lakes farther into their fishing career. But they're such a great place to learn too, because you don't have to worry about reading the water really. I mean, you do have to kind of read where a fish might be in the lake and still work your way around it and everything. But, you know, it's just such a great place to take beginners too. And I feel like it, you know, a lot of people get kind of thrown into it, you know, on a river and they're trying to learn how to cast and how to read the water and how to understand fish behavior and all this stuff at the same time. When you can take a lot of that out of the equation by just going to a lake and now it's a lot more feasible for someone to go out for the first time and probably actually reel in a couple fish.
Mike
Yeah, I was talking to somebody a while back and they said, "Well, I don't really fish stillwater. I just don't know how to do it. I've never done it well." I'm kind of like, "Wow, this is really a no-brainer." I mean, if you get a dozen flies and a decent rod and you're willing to put in some time on your feet, it's not hard. It's not rocket science. You're not going to catch anything really big, generally. Once in a while, you get something nice, but generally, they're smaller fish. It's a lot of fun.
Katie
Yeah. And I always go back and forth on that because I kind of agree with you, but I wonder if maybe my experience is different from some people because, um, I hear a lot, I hear podcasts, I read articles, I read books, um, that talk about kind of the technical aspects of still water fishing. Um, and it's often, you know, a lot more technical than what I've had to do, um, to catch fish in most of the Alpine lakes here in Colorado. Um, from my experience, I haven't had to do much more than take a handful of generic dry flies up and just cast them out and at some point during the day they're gonna they're gonna feed on whatever I throw but I it seems to differ from what I hear a lot of other people talking about which is a lot of more technical you're using indicators really long leaders fishing like mostly chironomids under the surface and I don't know if if maybe I just have lucked out where I've gone but I've never required much I don't want to say effort because most of the efforts in getting to the place I want to fish it's usually pretty easy once I get up there. Have you experienced the same thing?
Mike
I have, yeah. The fish are pretty cooperative. I mean, you know, it can get technical at times, but generally it's just pretty easy. I mean, they're going to eat just about whatever you want to throw at them. I mean, we're talking fish that spend nine months out of the year under ice, you know, and they're hungry. It could be more of a challenge if you're fishing a mesotrophic lake, you know, where there's a lot of weed growth and so on and so forth. a lot of places for bugs to hide, a lot of places for bugs to breed, but they're generally still going to be hungry.
Katie
Yeah, and I feel like a lot of them just see so many, or so few anglers that you don't have to worry about the spooky fish aspect. They're not that concerned that you're there. They haven't seen a lot of flies before, so you're not trying to, I don't know, trick a fish that has seen it a thousand times. You're trying to trick a fish that really just wants to eat, and that's all it's focusing on.
Mike
Right, exactly. Yeah, I mean I've caught as many as 50 fish in a couple hours fishing, you know, and of course catch and release, but still just one right after another it almost gets boring.
Katie
So how did you get into writing about fly fishing?
Mike
Well I started I started writing when I was back in Washington State. Actually I took somebody up on the dare actually. It was a weekly newspaper and there was a daily newspaper that came out of Everett, Washington that had an outdoor guy wrote regularly. And I liked his articles, and I thought they were pretty good. And so I called up the local newspaper, the weekly, and I said, hey, what you guys need is somebody that can do this for you. You know, call it oh, the county was Snohomish County, so we could call it Snohomish County Outdoors. Why don't you guys do something like that? I think it'd be good. And he said-- the editor says, fine, do it. I think it was a dare, you know, kind of like, yeah, yeah, shut up, go away, you know. But I did. I submitted a couple of samples. and they said, "Okay, you're on." And so I wrote a weekly article for over a year, I guess it was. And then they also published a magazine, and people from Washington State would remember this, "Fishing Holes" magazine. And I wrote regularly for them for a couple of years until they changed ownership.
Katie
And so at this point, were you choosing what you wrote about, or were you kind of getting assignments from them?
Mike
Both, basically
Katie
And that just transitioned over to, you said you blog as well. Is that just kind of a fun hobby for you? Kind of using the skills that you got writing for these magazines and newspapers? Or do you actually kind of do that as a side business?
Mike
Well, I actually, it's just kind of fun. You know, it's kind of a, not really a side business. I mean, I make some money at it, but it's not really, most writers don't make a living full time at it. (laughing) You know, most of them just don't. So it's a lot of fun and it allows me, you know, an avenue for expression. and it helps me help other people too, which I really enjoy. I really, I think I have more fun watching people catch fish and teaching them to catch fish than actually fishing myself.
Katie
Yeah, I think that's a common sentiment amongst, especially fishermen that have been doing it for a while. It's like, at some point you've caught, there's only so many 10 inch fish you can catch before, it doesn't really feel that exciting anymore. But it's really fun to watch someone catch their first 10 inch fish because they couldn't be more excited.
Mike
Exactly, yeah. Well, anyway, from there I just transitioned. Well, I moved to Montana and then I didn't do any writing for quite some time. And then I thought, well, I just I really need to get back into it. It was a lot of fun. And so there's a magazine here in Montana called Montana Outdoors. You may have seen it. It's won national awards and so on and so forth. So I did some writing for them and some other magazines like Northwest Fly Fishing Magazine I've written for them. And it's It's just a lot of fun, you know? So that's why I do it, just basically for fun, for entertainment, and to help other people.
Katie
So how did that transition over to your book, which, let's go ahead and talk about that. I haven't read it, but why don't you talk about how you got into it and what it's about, basically, like what it covers, just run the gamut of the book.
Mike
Well, actually, I got a call from the publisher, Wilderness Adventures Press, here in Montana, And they said they're the largest book publisher in Montana, which isn't saying too much. We've barely got a million people, okay? (laughing) But it sounds good, you know, it sounds good. So anyway, he says, "Well, what I'd like to write, we've seen some of the stuff you've written, you know, in magazines and so on and so forth. I'd like to write, how'd you like to write a book for us?" And I said, "Well, I don't know, you know, like how?" Like, "Well, fly fishing mountain lakes." And, "Well, you know, our lakes are pretty brushy around the edge and, you know, it can be pretty tough to fish unless you get out on the water, or do a little bit of wade fishing or something. And he said, well, get a boat. And I said, well, I'm old. I can't carry all that stuff, carry a backpack, boat, and camping equipment, and all that stuff. I said, I just can't do it. He said, well, then get a pack goat. And well, yeah, I've heard of those before. And I thought about that. So I did. And that's how the book got written. Me and the pack goat, the dog just headed up to a bunch of lakes and fished and rowed about it. Because that's what he said. He said, "Well, you're going to go anyway, aren't you? To the mountain lakes." And I said, "Well, yeah." He said, "Well, then just go there and write about it and take pictures." OK, I'll do it. But it turned out being a whole lot more work than I thought it would. I enjoyed it. I think-- I don't know if I want to write another book. I think that just writing for magazines and newspapers is just as a hobby thing, it's kept me pretty busy. And writing a book is oh, man, it took three summers. Somebody asked my wife once, Katie. He says, well, what qualifies him as a fishing guide to write a fishing guide, fly fishing lakes? He's not a guide, is he? Well, no. Well, then what qualifies him? She says, well, he spent three summers living in a tent. I think that qualifies him.
Katie
I mean, at the end of the day, I feel like what qualifies a guide to share information is just their amount of time on the water compared to the average person, because they're out there So, you know, at the end of the day, if you're out there the same amount of time, you're essentially just as qualified. You're just not showing others how to do that yet. And that's kind of what the book is at that point, is your way of sharing your information, which a guide might be sharing face to face on a trip, but you're just kind of condensing your knowledge into a piece of writing versus sharing it to your guests.
Mike
Yeah, exactly. And you know, as far as guiding is concerned, I've been asked to guide, you know, to do some guiding. But, you know, I work in a fly shop part-time and they don't care if I bring my computer and write, you know, in between customers. And it's air-conditioned. And that river, it's 100 degrees on that river for 12-hour days. I just really don't want to do that. So I just passed on that and said, "Ah, I'll just continue to do what I'm doing."
Katie
So did you ever do any writing out in the field, like while you were on these trips? Would you bring something along to do any writing?
Mike
I would, yeah.
Katie
And would that be by hand? You just write it down in a notebook or something?
Mike
No, I bring my, I got a little laptop, so I have a little iPad, so I could bring that. It's got a little keyboard on it, so I can bring that and make a few notes and so on and so forth. But I do take a notepad as well, because I don't always pack that with me. I mean, I might be on a long hike and just be grudging every ounce, you know how that is. And so no, I generally don't bring that.
Katie
So is it unusual for the publisher to come to somebody asking them to write a book versus the aspiring author to be seeking a publisher?
Mike
Yeah, normally it's the other way around. I think what really makes the difference is if you've got some kind of platform. Okay. Like for example, you've written for some magazines. And magazines are pretty easy to break into. You know, most magazines that are looking for, most magazines are looking for good writers, you know, and so they'll publish a set of writers guidelines, and just follow them, you know, and query them and tell them, I'd like to write an article about this, would you be interested, you know, and this is who I am. And, and, you know, mention your platform. And generally that, that gets you that gets you in. But in the beginning, again, it's not too tough to break into really, you know, once you've built a platform, you know, through blogging, or writing or social media, or whatever you're doing, podcast, for example, then they will tend to come to you sometimes, or at least it makes it a whole lot easier. I've got an article coming out in this summer with Distinctly Montana Magazine here in Montana, and they want an article on goat packing. And so I just said, "This is what I would propose." And they said, "Okay." And I said, "By the way, this is who I am," and just mentioned, "Well, like the query I sent to you, I've written in person magazines and newspapers, and this is what qualifies me to write for you. Generally, they'll come back if they like it and say, "Okay, let's see it." And then you're gonna write something on spec (laughs) and send it in. But that worked out pretty well. I did an article for Montana Outdoors a while back and their writer's guide guidelines said they want you to write a third person, you know, newspaper style. So, okay, so I wrote the article that way and submitted it and the publisher called me back and said, no no no no you're the expert obviously so I want you to write this first person so you get some opportunities like that so yeah.
Katie
I think it's easier for both parties when you know you already have kind of a body of a body of work because either they can find you and reach out to you or you know at least if you come to them you've got something to show them I feel like it's just hard to you know if someone says I want to write for you you can't just really take a risk on that without seeing if the person is qualified to do so.
Mike
Well, most publishers in the writing world, or most editors, they're going to hit social media. They're on the stage of computers. They're going to go, "Okay, does the guy blog? Does he have a platform? Is he on social media? What's he written?" So on and so forth. And the blog just gives samples. For me, it's samples of writing. So they go, "Okay, the guy can write and writes entertaining stuff, so I think I'd like to take a chance on him." So you just submit something, and they like it or they don't. But anyway, that's about all there is to it. I mean it's not real easy, but that's the first thing editors do. Does he have a platform, or is he just new? But even being new, if you query write and write a query later the way it's supposed to be written, and follow the rules and do what you're supposed to do, then they go okay, this guy may not be real experienced or anything, but he or she is knowledgeable and they can write, and so I'm going to take a chance on it because they're not risking anything, go ahead and send me an article on spec.
Katie
Right, you're not going to lose anything. No, right. So what all do you cover in the book? Is it more stories or how-to? What's the general content of it?
Mike
The first half of the book, or the first part of the book is how-to's. It approaches it like basically, having never done this before, for example. It talks about tackle requirements and backcountry navigation and how to choose the right pack and what to put in it and those kinds of things.
Katie
And then does it transition over to kind of some of your experiences?
Mike
Yeah, then basically it becomes a guidebook. In other words, I'm going to go to a certain... You're going to look up a certain lake. You think you might want to fish a certain lake and so you're going to look it up and say, "Okay, this guy's been there. This is how to get there. This is what the trail looks like, you know, and this is where there are other camping spots there And what are they like and what am I gonna catch and what should I use and so on and so forth?
Katie
How much what do you say I know the book is is about fly-fishing Montana and Lake specifically But how much of it do you think would translate over to other areas apart from the actual, you know? Here's a specific location and the camping nearby but the actual techniques and things like that How much of that do you think would translate over to other areas or other styles of water or fishing?
Mike
Oh quite a bit I think. You know one of the chapters is called Nuts and Bolts. Like I say the first portion of the book is just backcountry navigation and how to put in your pack and what about bears and you know all those kinds of things. So what kind of fish are you gonna cook them? Is it okay to cook them? Is it okay to keep them once in a while and cook it or you know backcountry behavior, how to behave yourself and in fact I just did a blog entry about that. about, you know, just pick up your trash, pick up other people's trash, you know. Luckily in Montana we don't have much. I can imagine being the same way in Colorado too, you know, the lakes aren't visited that much for one thing, for another thing people respect them. I don't see much trash up there.
Katie
You know, I notice that there is a direct correlation between how hard someone's willing to work to get somewhere and how much they're also willing to pick up their trash because, you know, we're overflowing the people here in Colorado. So it's not unusual to hike 10 miles back somewhere and still find somebody, but you're not going to find a beer can from that person because, you know, if they care enough to get that far back, they probably care enough to pack out what they packed in. But if I go, you know, 10 minutes away to the river along the highway, it is just a dump.
Mike
Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.
Katie
And I also find that the people who drink Bud Light tend to litter more than the people who who drink craft beer. I don't know what it is, but the Bud Light people like to throw their cans.
Mike
You know, I went up to a particular lake, it's only about a mile and a half hike. And I went up and it's just a beautiful little lake and a guy that was with me cut a really nice cut bow about 17 inches. So I don't know if all the rest of them were smallish, but we had a really good time. But what really floored me is I looked around and here's, you know, there's a firing there and somebody has tried to burn a couple cans of chili in empty cans. And you could tell it was chili burned all the label off. And I thought, you know, if you're going to pack in canned goods full, at least you can pack them out empty.
Katie
Right. You're still losing a bunch of weight.
Mike
Yeah. And what really fried me too, is it was some empty water bottles, you know, and I'm kind of like, geez, the thing might weigh a gram empty. Can't you just take that out?
Katie
Right.
Mike
So.
Katie
It also just makes you wonder what they were thinking when they were packing.
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Well, obviously it's an easy hike. That particular part of Montana, I'm surprised to see anything up there because it was that's very very remote. But anyway,
Katie
mm-hmm you sometimes you see something way out in the middle of nowhere and you it kind of like, you know, Obviously, you know that people have been there before but sometimes when you're that far out you're not seeing anybody It's it's nice to convince yourself that you're like the first person that's been there and it kind of you know Yanks you out of that mindset when you suddenly come across Some can or something out in the middle of absolutely nowhere like you may even be off a trail and it just reminds you like how many people actually get out that far sometimes?
Mike
Some of our lakes here, well, almost all of our lakes here in Montana, our mountain lakes, were planted at one time or another because there's just no, they just can't get in, the trout can't get into them. I mean, originally they were planted with people, panniers on your back and packing fingerlings. And then they did fixed wing aircraft, planes and stuff. But it's really kind of hard to swoop in and out. [LAUGH] Those mountain lakes. Yeah. So then they went to helicopter planning and they're doing that. But a lot of them have been maintained by Montana Fish and Wildlife Parks in their natural state. And I've been to some of those. And you don't see, I mean, you can imagine that you are the only person that's been there for many, many years because most people are going there to fish.
Katie
You mean the ones that don't have fish?
Mike
Yeah.
Katie
Like you get up there because no one has a reason to go?
Mike
No one has a reason to go. Yeah. I mean, with so many lakes here in Montana, I mean, there's just hundreds, thousands of them. if it doesn't have fish. I mean, usually I would get on Montana Fish and Wildlife Park's website and find out what's been planted, when it was planted, you know, and so on. So you just get a lot of information about it before I go. One lake in particular, I didn't do that for whatever reason, you know, and I hiked up to this lake and it was only about a mile cross-country and I thought, "Boy, I'm gonna knock them dead cross-country, no trails." I got up there and there was no evidence of any, no footprints or anything, you know, and I blew up my little, my little boat went out fished a little bit and I wasn't catching anything I wasn't seeing anything coming up and I wasn't seeing any fish in the water I went something's wrong here so I just packed up and left and then I got on the website and look and it was barren that lake had never been planted but boy it was a nice experience I mean you could just imagine that like you say you nobody else had been there for years that probably hadn't been
Katie
Yeah you can I feel you can kind of tell that too I mean there's there's places where I feel like I should be the only person you know within miles and either you see somebody or you see just like a firing that's been recently used and it's just it's just like a little daunting because it's it's weird to think that you know for some of the trips that I've done is you're working so hard during it they it's sometimes you're like I can't imagine anyone else is crazy enough to do this right now I think you're like you know there's probably someone here last week and that's just it's on one hand it can be a little bit I don't say frustrating but you kind of think like oh man like I thought I thought I had really gotten out here away from people but then on the other hand you're like you know what it's really nice that there are other people out there who you know maybe I'll meet somebody who has done this hike and that we can connect about it because like you know instantly that you'd be friends if you met that person.
Mike
Oh yeah yeah that's a whole different class of people and I don't you know I don't want get into that or anything but generally people because there's some of them throw their trash around like I said but generally it's it's a different class of people up there you know and they're pretty friendly and and uh it's just a joy to fish with them when you see them and a lot of times I don't see anybody.
Katie
Yeah I think those are always the best trips.
Mike
Yeah I think so but then again that's why I go there is for the solitude you know so.
Katie
So let's transition over to the Pat goats because that's something I have absolutely no experience with. And you threw that as a suggestion and I was like, you know what, this is my opportunity to learn. So, it sounds like you got the goat because of the writing. Like, is that right? You had to, you kind of had to get it because you were being coerced into doing the book.
Mike
Yeah, exactly. Well, my backpack boat, Dave Scadden makes some nice light ones for backpacking. And so, I got one of his and the pack that it's carried in and the oars and my tackle and so on and so forth, it's like 25 pounds.
Katie
This is an actual boat, not like a float tube?
Mike
Oh, no. It's not a float tube. You actually row it. It's more like a pontoon boat. It's kind of a hybrid pontoon boat. You're not in the water or anything like that. You're up out of the water. You might get wet getting in, but after that, you're up out of the water. how I got into it, like I said, as a guy said, well, they get a pack goat. So I got the boat and it only weighed 25 pounds. And I thought, well, I can handle that, you know. And so I got a goat, I got a pack goat, and I did some investigations and research on it. And because he'd suggested it, you know, like I said, I'd heard about it. And so I got the goat and I bought the panniers and stuff. And goats are really cheap. I mean, people just about give them to you. But you've got to have nobody wants it. But boy, do they have some real advantages. You know, Number one, you want a big one. You're not going to get with these little miniature goats or anything. They can't carry any weight to speak of. So I've got-- there's three breeds, actually, that work really good for pack goats. One of them is a Saanen. And they were raised in the Swiss Alps. And he weighs 160 pounds. And a good pack goat, a big pack goat, will go 200, 225.
Katie
Wow, that's a lot larger than I was picturing. I think maybe I'm picturing like you're right in the middle of a little petting zoo goat.
Mike
Exactly. No, he's as big as a deer, you know, big as a mule deer. So and he's got his own cross buck. You know, I put that on him and a pannier on each side. And I carry the boat and the tackle and he carries the camera equipment and food and tent and sleeping bag and everything else.
Katie
So how much can one of these things carry?
Mike
About 25 percent of their body weight, which is about, you know, about the same as us with us. So he could pack, you know, about 40 pounds.
Katie
OK. And is he carrying his own feed and stuff or does he just eat what whatever he finds up there?
Mike
Yeah, that's one of the big advantages of pack goats. You don't have to pack any food for them because they eat everything except for tin cans. They don't eat tin cans. Unfortunately. They will nibble on your shirt tail just to see if it's edible. Monday, mine tried to eat a plastic flower and that didn't work. It got in the garage for some reason, found some plastic flowers.
Katie
That's understandable.
Mike
But you don't have to shoe them. You don't have to trim their hooves. As long as you're hiking often enough, their hooves wear down pretty fast. Like I said, they just about eat anything. They don't buck, they don't bite. They're environmentally friendly. I mean, they leave a track like a deer. And their droppings, somebody would be thrilled. Oh, it must have been a deer that walked through here. No, it was my goat.
Katie
Okay.
Mike
And the food doesn't have to be top quality. They don't drink much water. They can go a couple of days without drinking water. The dry camps don't bother them much. The packing equipment is expensive. But they're incredibly sure-footed. They go places that we would not go. That's for sure.
Katie
So what is the equipment that they take to pack? Like what do you put on him?
Mike
Just basically it's like what a mule would use or a horse and you get a pack saddle.
Katie
Okay.
Mike
You know that sits on him and then you'd strap that down and then the pannier on each side. He's soft-sided panniers and the panniers on each side stuff and full of your stuff and away you go. They follow like big dogs. They're easy to, they're easy. You don't have a, you don't have a stock trailer either. You know, he put them in the back of a pickup. You know, I've got a little half ton trailer that I've got some extended height, higher sides, so they can't jump out. So he can't jump out. And, uh, uh, but basically they're, they're just easy to care for. And they have got, they don't take much room. And like I said, they follow you like a big dog. I mean, I keep buying on the lead if there's other people around, because if I'm going uphill, he's like, they're going downhill, I'm going with them. And so it just turns around, you know? And they want to stop and take pictures, and those kinds of things. I had a I was heading up to one lake. Actually, it was the same lake that I went to that was fishless. And the road was pretty rough, pretty nasty. So I was going pretty slow, so I was following my little trailer. And I noticed behind me there was a Forest Service truck. And I thought, well, I better pull over and let him by. So I pulled over alongside the road. He pulled up alongside me. And he stopped and he rolled down the window. He says, I got to ask. I said, well, go ahead. He said, what's with the goat? I said, it's my pack goat. "No, really?" Yeah, that's what I told him about it. He'd never heard of that before. And then I called up somebody with Fish & Wildlife Parks, I think it was up way up in northwest Montana, and I introduced myself and I was looking for information, you know, whatever information I could get. And I mentioned my pet goat. He said, "Oh yeah, we've heard about you, pet goat. We know all about you."
Katie
Word spreads fast.
Mike
Word spreads fast, yeah.
Katie
I think you already mentioned a couple of, I was going to get to this, but I think a couple of the things you've already said have kind of answered it, but just in case there's anything else, what are the benefits of a pat goat versus something like a horse or an alpaca or a llama? I know you said that you don't have to shoo them and things like that, but are there any other really obvious benefits? Obviously besides things like it's a lot smaller than a horse, but at the same time you can ride a horse. I assume you can't ride the goat.
Mike
Not unless you're a very, very small person. I think some of the advantages over mules and horses or horses and mules and llamas. Llamas are a lot bigger, can be a little bit more difficult to handle. I mean a llama can be a couple hundred pounds easily. They could put out a lot more weight but they might go two, three hundred pounds. You know and they're not very nice animals. You know.
Katie
Yeah I've noticed that.
Mike
They don't really like you. They just they're just there.
Katie
Does the goat like you? Is the goat happy to be there and pretty amicable the whole time?
Mike
Oh yeah, he's quite affectionate actually. You don't want to let him in your tent though. I took him in a couple years ago because once you teach them, because they're smart, they're very smart. So I took my goat elk hunting to a backpacking trip with a friend of mine and this is a place where you could drive in and set up your wall tent and then they locked the gate and then you hike get about three miles to your camp. So anyway, I told my friend, I told Clint, I says I'm gonna bring my goat and of course he'd never heard of it before so I explained it. Okay, we'll give it a try. I've tried anything once, that kind of deal. And up in this particular part of the country gets very, very cold. I mean you can hit 20 below and that's, and Saanen's are pretty good about that. They were raised in the Swiss Alps. I mean they can take the cold. They can't take the heat but they can take the cold. And so I got up there and we've got this tent set up. got two tents. One of them's a cook tent, one of them's a sleeping tent. So it gets down, you're looking at the thermometer, it goes down around 15 below or so, and my buddy Clint says, "Why don't you bring him inside? Bring him inside." I said, "No, no, you can't housebreak a goat." You know, "No, it's not a good idea, Clint." "Oh, come on, come on, come on." I said, "All right, all right, I'll let him inside." So I let him inside, and I woke up about 2 a.m. in the middle of the night, and I thought, "You know, I really need to take that goat outside." It was too late. Well, unbeknownst to me, but now we taught him how to get intense. You know, they learn quick.
Katie
He's living a good life now.
Mike
Oh yeah. So we woke up a couple of nights later, we woke up, bang, crash, bang. And Clint grabbed his rifle and says, we got a bear. We got a bear. You know, he goes roaring into the cook tent and there's Grover in there. He's leveled the table, you know, and he's just checking everything out, seeing what's edible and what isn't, you know, that dog on gold, I almost shot him. So I took him home after that and then came back. (laughing) 'Cause he kinda wore out his welcome. 'Cause once you teach, once they know they can get in the tent, that's it.
Katie
That's what they want from then on.
Mike
But I can let him loose, you know, if I'm by myself and there's nobody else around, you know, I let him loose, he wanders around camp, he doesn't go anywhere. He just wanders around camp and has a little bite of this, a little bite of that. They're browsers like deer are, so they're very easy on things.
Katie
Do you leave him untied at night too?
Mike
No, I tie him up, yeah, I tie him up. Well, yeah, I tie him up because, anyway, he might get scared and run off, but we do get an animal come into camp or something.
Katie
Yeah, have you ever had any issues with bears or anything?
Mike
No, never have. But I practice bear aware camping. There's a whole chapter in the book about that. And I've never had any problems with bears. But then again, I'm really careful with my stuff, you know, order proof bags and my foodstuffs are always bagged and those kinds of things. I went up, a friend of mine asked me one time, he went hiking with me, there's a new backpacker and he says, "Aren't you worried "about setting up camp and everything?" He says, "Aren't you worried about bears?" I said, "No, I'm not worried about bears at all." "Why not?" I said, "I got two burglar alarms." "What do you mean burglar alarms?" "I got the goat." I got three actually. I got the goat, I got the dog, and I got you. [LAUGHTER] I'm going to sleep like a baby. [LAUGHTER]
Katie
So you usually bring a dog with you too?
Mike
Yeah, I've got a little dog that goes backpacking. She packs all her own food and stuff.
Katie
Okay. That's pretty fun.
Mike
Yeah. She goes to the boat with me. She likes to go.
Katie
And so when you're out on the boat, I assume at that point you just let the goat wander?
Mike
No, I tie him up because he's hollers at me. "Hey, hey, you forgot something! Hey, hey!"
Katie
Once you give the goat a taste of the boat, he'll be wanting to join you there too.
Mike
Yeah, that's right. Well, anyway, you can let him wander around camp. In the morning, I usually let him loose and he'll wander around and have breakfast. And you can always tell when he's full because then he'll come back to camp and he wants to see what's in the pack and see what's in the tent. They're very curious, you know, so that that's it game over you got tied up again, you know
Katie
So it sounds like they have a bit more of a personality than some of the other pack animals I think of
Mike
oh, they really do. They're they're full of personality I hadn't I let him out of his little house pen and stuff. So I don't let him wander around here He wouldn't go anywhere, but we have wolves around here and stuff So I don't want to let him wander away off the property. So I keep him in his house But the other day I had a bad man about for a while and I let him out and he's jumping around and acting like a kid, you know. And then he wanted to butt me a little bit. I thought he doesn't have horns, but he wanted to butt me and play around. I thought, "You idiot. You know, you forgot who's the king goat here." I grabbed him and flopped him down on his side and laid on him. That's what you do, you know. And then he stopped and they stopped struggling. You get off and you're king goat again. You know, so after that he followed right along and behaved himself perfectly.
Katie
They almost sound a bit like a dog.
Mike
They really are yeah as a matter of fact their intelligence level is about the same as a dog
Katie
You're making me want to get a goat
Mike
There was a guy in Wyoming that the father of the father of goat packing modern goat packing is oh What's his name? It's on my shelf. I can't see it here But it's just titled the pack goat and somebody was in C or something like that is his name But he had a contract with the Forest Service He lives down in Wyoming. He had a contract with the Forest Service and he was raising goats for milk and that kind of thing. And he had a contract with the Forest Service, he's packing all this equipment in, and this is the old days where nothing was computerized. And so he packed, and this stuff weighed a lot of weight, and his big backpack full of gear and stuff, 'cause he had a contract to go in and check this and check that and so on and so forth. And one day he got to look at one of his goats and he says, "I wonder." So he made a cross buck for it, the goat started packing and didn't seem to mind at all and so he made a whole string of pack goats.
Katie
Yeah that was actually one of my other questions is it sounds like you use just one is that is that typical or do people often have a couple of them they take up?
Mike
Usually people will have at least two it's not a good idea to have one goat I had two for a while but goats grow on you I mean they kind of like once you get one goat then you want a million of them. So I got another goat and he was a different breed and he was a Nubian. Nubians are really sturdy little goats. They are really muscular. Their cry sounds like a baby crying and they're very, very vocal. This is not going to work. Not going to work at all. Whereas the son is very, very quiet. Anyway, I got rid of him. I found somebody who wanted him so I got rid of him. I've got the one goat. You really shouldn't keep one because they are herd animals so generally people will you know keep at least two and if you're goat packing if you want a string well by golly you know if you've got three or four of them you're packing a couple hundred pounds worth of stuff in you know
Katie
yeah it sounds like it's probably not that much more work to have two than to have one like if you're already leading one and you have the other one tied to that one yeah and they feed themselves then it doesn't really sound like adding more goats you know equals more work
Mike
nope it doesn't not at all because they just follow each other along because one guy is that I mean I'm the king goat, you know, so the other goat will follow him because they establish a pecking order. For goats it's all about life in the herd and eating and sleeping, that's all they do.
Katie
Sounds like a good life.
Mike
Yeah, so but anyway they don't like to be alone but he doesn't seem to mind it too much if I go out spend some time with him every day. At least he's not complained about it. But yeah, most people want a string and like I say, you can carry three goats in the back of a pickup, you know, just puts my sides on it so they can't jump out.
Katie
Mm-hmm. Does he mow your lawn for you? Yeah he does. We've talked about just getting like a you know any old goat and we've sadly found out that they're not allowed in our neighborhood but we're still dreaming someday we'll have one just in the hopes that we can get rid of the lawnmower and just have the goat take care of the yard for us.
Mike
Yeah it's interesting they're not allowed there usually a lot of people in cities keep them and they keep in a backyard a fenced backyard.
Katie
Yeah there's some neighborhoods near us that allow them we're allowed bees and chickens but I I guess a goat just crossed the line for our neighborhood, unfortunately.
Mike
People don't know goats real well and if they knew them then they wouldn't care because they're really... the only thing about them is they are escape artists.
Katie
Oh really?
Mike
Yeah, they're pretty smart. You don't ever want to let them see you unlatch the gate.
Katie
But why do they try to escape? It sounds like they're kind of attached to you. Okay, just because they're bored.
Mike
Yeah, I mean the grass is always greener on the other side so you know He's gonna stick his head through the cattle paddle and eat some grass on the other side. He's got plenty of grass growing in where he's at, but it's always, I can't reach that. I gotta have the, it's just like people. Grass is always greener. So he might let himself out just to go nibble something else. He really likes ponderosa pine leaves. Oh, really? Have a lot of ponderosa pine around here, and they're actually good for him too. He's a weather, but you wanna make sure that if you get one, you either get a doe, if you like goat's milk, you can do a doe, or get a weather. weather's castrated male they don't smell like a goat
Katie
It sounds like you have other uses for a goat besides just the packing like you get you can milk the same goat that you're using to pack
Mike
yeah yeah it's John Baczynski I think it's his name but he talks about that too because he had those he says if you like if you like goat's milk you can you know have fresh milk in camp
Katie
That's pretty interesting. That sounds like a nice benefit
Mike
mm-hmm
Katie
what's the care like at home
Mike
Oh gee I go out and feed him in the morning and give him a flake of hay and spend a little time with him and then at night I go out and give him some fresh water because they only give you water about once a day. So just go out and give him some fresh water and I might give him a carrot for a treat and spend a little time with him and that's it.
Katie
But I assume it's not nearly as much work as having like a horse or something like that.
Mike
Oh not at all, no. I mean his pen's very small. Like I said you don't have to shoe him so you don't have to worry about him throwing a shoe. You see people up in the woods with horses and there's a lot of romance with horses, riding a horse and leading them. But usually got to have two horses one is packing the food for both horses then you got to worry about it they're gonna throw a shoe you know and they're spooky horses are kind of spooky so
Katie
yeah the romance also dies when you're out there shoveling manure
Mike
yeah that's true
Katie
um do you have any good stories from from your three years out there with the goat and just packing around and in the Montana of wilderness?
Mike
Let me think for a second. Oh yeah he's always with me so.
Katie
Any goat specific stories of I don't know any funny stories or anything like that?
Mike
Just this that you know the one about getting in the tent.
Katie
Sure.
Mike
And the dog the dog is the goat’s boss you know so if I holler if he's named the goats name is Grover so if I holler at Grover hey get out of there you know then she'll yeah get out there. Get out. Didn't you hear what he said?
Katie
So did the dog and the goat get along pretty well?
Mike
Quite well, yeah.
Katie
Okay. I think, like you said, it sounds kind of just like a dog that has more capabilities, but I wasn't sure if the dog would be kind of thrown off by the fact that the goat is, you know, obviously different.
Mike
No, the only thing that confuses the dog is goats will do a bow, you know, like they're gonna butt you, they're gonna show you their horns or the top of their or something. So and for a dog that's a play bow. You know how dogs will bow down and play.
Katie
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike
Well the goats, the dog interprets that as a play bow. They're lowering their head, you know, "Oh it wants to play." No, I don't want to play. Once the dog learns that that's not a play bow, it goes a lot better. Now goats are generally afraid of dogs, but they do get used to dogs pretty quick.
Katie
So is it that they're kind of skittish around dogs just because dogs kind of have the, I don't know, they have that appearance and they have kind of that herding instinct, but the goats can get used to, you know, a specific dog that they know.
Mike
Yeah, they get used to them really quick. But you know, dogs are predators. And so they, they, like a wolf, you know, I mean, they see the dog, they think predator. But you know, goats are pretty good about, as far as stories are concerned, they're pretty good about defending themselves, especially if you get a horned goat, you know, I mean, because they, they don't, if they're attacked by a predator, they generally won't run. I mean, they'll run a little ways to get up at some high ground and then they'll turn around and lower their head and say Okay, bring it
Katie
They're not too scared then
Mike
no, and a mountain lion goes “I think I'll look for some easier prey”
Katie
Yeah, something that's not willing to defend itself.
Mike
Yeah, exactly
Katie
Well, that's kind of a nice feature. Well, they will they like make noise if there's a problem around camp
Mike
Yeah, I put a bell on him. Okay, so so, you know, if I keep that on him in the middle of night So if he's I can keep my ears out for that bell, so he moves around a lot other than just you know wanting to get a little snack or something or rearrange himself but if he moves around a lot then that that's that's an alarm. It tells me there's something going on out there he's not comfortable.
Katie
Now do the females have horns too or is that just a male?
Mike
Okay. Yeah they both have horns.
Katie
And you said yours does not though?
Mike
No he's been dehorned they call it disbudding.
Katie
Now why did you do that?
Mike
Well because the first thing people want to do when they see a horned goat is grab the goat by the horns.
Katie
Really?
Mike
It's a handle. It seems like, yeah, most people it's a handle you know oh there's a hand let's go down it's on handle cool no no that's once a goat once you do that to a goat he goes aha now I can now I can spear people but the only thing is you don't want to keep horned goats with with goats that have been dehorned because they can't really defend themselves that well
Katie
yeah not an even playing field at that point
Mike
yeah it's not an even playing field yeah
Katie
well I think you've convinced me to get a goat I'm gonna have to move somewhere I can have one it kind of sounds like it sound like the best of all worlds because, like we mentioned before, you know, we love the idea of just like riding a horse off into the sunset and, you know, having something to carry, like, that you can ride that can carry that much weight. But having heard about having to deal with horses and, like you said, they can spook and you have to carry so much food and it just seems like there's a lot of logistics that go into owning a horse and the transport and the care. And that just never seemed worth it to me. I would love to have a friend who has horses, but I don't think I'll ever own a horse. Just for that reason, just sounds like a lot of work. But I love dogs, and this just sounds like a dog that can kind of function like a horse at times, which just sounds like the best of both worlds.
Mike
They like people. I mean, they're, like I said, they're actually affectionate. I was working on something underneath a truck in the garage one day, and I still had this smaller goat, a little goat. He hadn't been trained to pack yet, but I let him loose so they could wander around. know, they were coming in the garage and poking around and getting into trouble, but I don't want to keep penned up all the time. So anyway, I'm under the truck and I'm stretched out and I feel something on my legs and the smaller goat had climbed in on my legs and laid down.
Katie
They just sound so quirky, like just little things like that.
Mike
Yeah. Well, there, as I said, though, they're, they're quite friendly. They like people, they follow along and they just get to know their people and stuff. The only, there's a few things you've got to teach them. I mean, they don't like water. And so, I mean, if it's raining or something, they want to be under shelter. But he's used to it now. So usually, if I'm going to tie him up at camp, I'm going to tie him underneath a tree or something. Or I have brought a tarp. But a lot of times, he gets tangled up in the tarp, and then that's not good. So I just put him underneath a tree, and there he sits.
Katie
Now, are they smart enough to follow some commands at all? OK.
Mike
Yeah, they can learn their own names and stuff. And to discipline them, the only thing that works with a goat is water. You got a squirt bottle or a squirt gun or something. If they do something they're not supposed to do, squirt them in the face. They hate it. They just hate it.
Katie
I wonder what that instinct is. I mean, I guess most animals probably don't like being sprayed in the face with water, but I wonder what specifically about goats makes them averse to water.
Mike
They're a desert animal originally. and it came from arid countries like North Africa and the Near East and so on and so forth. So, you know, they're not, they're not really used to water. You have to teach them how to cross streams. I've taught Grover how to do that. You know, the first stream I came to, it's kind of like, "Oh no, I'm not going to cross that." "Oh yes, you are." "Yeah, well, I might be stronger than you." So, what you do is you just leave them. And they go, "Hey, hey, wait a minute. "There's bears out here!" So pretty soon here they come. I took him out, talk about stories, I took him out with a friend of mine one time and we there have been some blowdowns across the trail and one of them was we could get across it ourselves. I wasn't going to unpack that goat and pick him up over that thing. I know he can get across it, you know, because I've seen him do it before. So I said, "Well, let's go." He said, "The lake's only about a quarter mile away. You're gonna leave your goat?" I said, "Well, yeah, sure. He'll find his way over that log." Really? Yeah, no problem. So we got down to the lake and pretty soon here he comes. You can hear that bell. He comes running at it. He comes in running, running full tilt. "Hey, you guys left me back there." Somehow he figured out how to get across that log.
Katie
Thinking he just forgot him.
Mike
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean, they don't like being left alone. So I mean, they like the companionship. They're herd animals, you know. So even if there's other goats around, they want to be with the people.
Katie
So does Grover know any other commands? Like, Do you have a command for just like stay here or follow me or anything like that that are more useful?
Mike
He knows whoa,
Katie
okay
Mike
you know, whoa or stand, you know those kinds of things. He doesn't need to know too much
Katie
I guess if he's just following along there's not much he'll need to do. How long do they live?
Mike
About they can pack for about 12 years. They can pack for about 10 years about 9 or 10 years
Katie
Okay
Mike
generally have to be about 3 years old before they can pack.
Katie
Is that just for a size thing?
Mike
Yeah. They have to mature. It takes about three years for them to mature enough. But that doesn't mean you can't put a crossbuck on them and let them carry that around and get used to it. They got used to the lead. He knows how to lead and those kinds of things. And he's not supposed to eat on the trail either.
Katie
Why is that?
Mike
Because he'll stop and eat and then you got to get him going again.
Katie
Okay.
Mike
He's not supposed to do that, but he's gotten really good at grabbing a leaf on the run.
Katie
Just sneak one behind you and you're not looking.
Mike
I'm not looking so, snatch!
Katie
So is that if you're just like if you stay on the move, are they pretty, are they more inclined to follow you than they are to stop to eat? Is it just if you come to a stop for too long, they'll start to graze?
Mike
Oh yeah. If you stop, it's time to eat.
Katie
Okay. So you just gotta keep moving and they'll keep following you.
Mike
Yep. Yep.
Katie
Okay. Oh man, I'm excited to look into these goats because we have a truck and plenty of stuff to carry.
Mike
Hold on just a second. I can't reach up there with my earbuds in, but I'm gonna reach up my bookshelf. Hold on just a second. I've got a book up there I wanna introduce you to. Okay. Okay, Katie, I'm back. It's just called "The Pack Goat."
Katie
"The Pack Goat."
Mike
"The Pack Goat" is written by John, and I'll give you his last name. I'll just spell it 'cause I don't think I can even pronounce it. It's M-I-O-N-C-Z-Y-N-S-K-I.
Katie
Woo, that's a mouthful.
Mike
Yeah, like I said That's a lot of consonants in a row. And, but he's, and then there's, there's not much out there really. I mean, there was another book that some, I have another book on my shelf too, that somebody wrote and self-published it. It's just a wire about kind of thing, but there's not much out there really. I've asked him, actually, I'm in the middle of writing a book. It's just a humor piece. It's called "My Life as a Pack Goat."
Katie
You're referring the point of view of a pack goat?
Mike
Yeah, from Grover's view, yeah. One thing about him, he talked about commands. I was going to mention this, you can't teach a goat no. It just does what it wants. It does it. You can say no, and their noses are real sensitive. It goes almost prehensile. So if you say no and give them a little swat on the nose, that works for a couple of minutes. And then no doesn't mean no to a goat. It means not right now. Wait a minute. Try it again.
Katie
Just hold on.
Mike
Yeah. He'll forget.
Katie
I'm sure that's kind of what makes him charming too, though. I mean, it sounds like you're excuse me, you're kind of trading in a little bit of stubbornness, but you're getting, you're getting the personality.
Mike
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Katie
Which I think, I think that would, I think that would be a worthwhile trade in my opinion. Like if I, if I had a goat out there, I think I'd want one that has a bit of a more, more of a personality. I'd like to feel like I've got a companion on the trail, not just a robot that's carrying my stuff for me. So.
Mike
John tells a story too about a friend of his, no it wasn't, wasn't, it was, uh, Blair Flyfisher. His friend had a, you know, it's a guy who died from Lou Gehrig's here a number of years ago. I can't remember his name. He lives in Montana, or lived in Montana. But anyway, he talked about having a friend who had a pack goat. And he said that pack goat actually protected them both from mountain lion.
Katie
Really?
Mike
Yeah, because it was a horned goat, you know. And it got between them and the, between the mountain lion and them, I mean, you know, and drove the mountain lion off, so.
Katie
So not just warning them, but actually, like, actually physically protecting them from it. Yeah. That's pretty impressive. From something that I feel like in all other ways seems pretty pretty solidly a prey animal.
Mike
Yeah, really.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Mike, do you want to just share where people can find your book or any of your articles or on social media or anything like that?
Mike
Oh, sure. Well, they can get to my blog, of course. My Facebook is just pretty much family and stuff. It's not very interesting to most people. It's just it gives me a way to keep in touch with all my kids and grandkids and great-grands and all those. But anyway, as far as the book is concerned, I do write for my blog pretty regularly. It's called Life Under a Big Sky. And it's actually under MikeRather.com. But you can find it either way. And I'm on Twitter, too. And then the book is published by Wilderness Adventures Press here in Montana. And you can get it from them. you can just about get it anywhere. I think Amazon's got it and a lot of outdoor places have it.
Katie
Alright, perfect. Well, I'll link to it as well if anyone wants to just follow the link to go find it.
Mike
Yeah, good.
Katie
Well, Mike, I really appreciate you coming on. I learned a lot and like I said, I'm gonna be looking into goats in the future.
Mike
Oh, you should. They're just a kick. [laughter] You know, I got one more story for you. I was going back on the same trip when I pulled over for the Forest Service truck. I was coming back and there was some road work on the highway and there was a flagger guy out there and she flagged me to a stop. I was at the front of the line. And so we had to wait for a while for equipment and so on and so forth. So she wandered off a little bit. She went back and looked in the trailer. And then she came back and said, "You taking your goat for a ride?" I said, "No, that's my pack goat. What's a pack goat?" And that allowed me a perfect opportunity.
Katie
I'm sure you have to answer that question a lot.
Mike
Well, you do when you see people on the trail. I saw somebody on a trail, once they hiked up the lake before I did and I was hiking up, they were hiking out. And they said, "We were wondering what that deal was with that goat in the back of the trailer there." But you gotta be prepared. If you use a fat goat, you have to be prepared to stop and talk to people about it. I actually printed up a little flyer I just give to people. (laughing) and so on and so forth. The older generation, like my generation, they go, "Oh, we're all about horses. What is that? What's with that goat?" You know, and the younger generation don't. "I've heard about this. Wow, this is cool. Tell me about this." You know, so they respond more like yourself. They're just, they're not so all stuck in their ways and a horse is the only way to do it.
Katie
Sure. Yeah, I mean, if I came across a goat on the trail, I'd be stopping to ask questions. Sure. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot Mike for coming on and hopefully we can do another one of these down the road because I know you I threw out a bunch of topics and I'm interested in all of them. So If you're down to come back on then I'd be happy to chat with you again.
Mike
I'd be happy to do that Katie
Katie
All right. Well, I'll let you get going but thanks for taking the time and hopefully we'll talk again soon
Mike
All right. Sounds good.
Katie
All right. Take care. Bye. Bye All right, and that'll do it as always if you liked what you heard I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. Also, if you could give it a rating and review, that would be awesome. Since I just transitioned over from the Wild initiative, I'm still trying to get some downloads and some ratings and things. So if you've got some time, it takes just a couple seconds to rate it and review it. And you can also find me on social media under my name Katie Burgert on Go Wild or at Fish Untamed on Instagram. and I will be back here in two weeks so I will see you all then. Bye everyone.
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