Ep 186: Spirituality in Fly Fishing, with Pete Nunnally
Pete Nunnally is an Episcopal priest, Founder of Water and Wilderness Church, and author of the book Catching Hope: The Hidden Spiritual Wisdom of Fishing. In this episode, we talk about whether there is a difference between religion and spirituality, why so many people feel a connection to something bigger than themselves when they fish, how fishing skills can make us better people, keeping the magic in fishing, and much more.
Website: www.petenunnally.com
Instagram: @fr_pete_the_wilderness_priest
Substack: @fatherpetethewildernesspriest
Water and Wilderness Church: www.waterandwilderness.org
Echoes in the Wilderness white noise: link
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing in the backcountry. This is episode 186 with Pete Nunnally on the spirituality of fly fishing. well I always get started by finding a background on my guests and how they got introduced to the outdoors and into fishing so I'd love to hear how you were first introduced to fishing and what you loved about it?
Pete
Oh, man. I was a kid, like so many of us, and there was actually an older kid who was, to me, an adult. Now I realize he was 13 years old, and I was like six. He took me fishing at the pond at the local golf course, which was just walking distance from my house. I remember I caught a bluegill, And I was hooked. And to me, the pond was massive. It was like the ocean. It was the biggest. And now, like I drove by there some years ago and I tried to find it. And I found what I thought was it. And it was like a glorified drainage ditch. Like, you know, it was not even really a pond. But to my kid's mind, my child's mind, like this pond held so much mystery and adventure and magic and fish. And the idea that you could come to a pond and there's critters in there that I had never been introduced to. And I just watching them swim and then catching one, I was completely, I know I was hooked is sort of cliche. And when you fish, like I try to stay away from all that stuff, but I really was mesmerized by the act of fishing from a very young age. My dad had never fished before. So he learned how to fish because he had to take me because a year later we moved. and that little boy wasn't around to take me fishing anymore and dad and he was like all right well I'll learn how to fish he became a much better fisherman than me but in the book there's so many stories about you know father and son fishing together and the experiences that we have the book itself catching hope the hidden spiritualism of fishing is dedicated to my mother and she did all the pen and ink there's pen and ink drawings in there of fishing and things like that because she's an artist but I wanted to dedicate the book to her because she was so supportive and encouraging of the two of us going fishing while she did other things back home but that's the first time and and then dad then he really got into fishing and it's interesting how we both relate to it because it's very different I'm more of an artsy spiritual guy and my dad's more pragmatic let's catch fish you know and so we're kind of yin and yang because I can go out there and fish and have a good time and not catch anything I mean let me tell you something I want to catch fish like I always want to catch fish but if I don't it's okay and like the beauty of the surroundings where we are is really important to me and but we get lines in the water like and we'll we surf fish a lot and we're on the east coast and we'll be lines will be in the water for like five minutes and I'll be like all right come on where's the fish like dude like it's patience it's but that's that part's not as important to him as like let's catch fish which is why he generally catches a few more fish than me because I'm sort of integrating into the whole experience of what it means to read the beach, to read the surroundings and look and see, all right, what time of day is it? What's the tide or what's the water level? What's the temperature? What is the whole ecology around us doing and where might the fish be? And just living in that experience instead of like kind of walking on top of it and saying like, where's the fish? I'm going to go get the fish. I'm sort of like amazed at the fact that we live in this world that is so stunningly beautiful that inspires a reverence for it among a lot of us. Right. And we will call it different things. I'm an Episcopal priest. So I have like religious language, but also spiritual language I think is a little more accessible for everybody. And I remember being out with a guide on a boat one time, and he was like, well, I'm not really a religious guy, but you can't help but fish and then have some reverence for the water itself and for this whole thing that we're a part of.
Katie
I know we talked a little bit ahead of time about kind of that distinction between religion and spirituality. What does that mean for you, the distinction there? And how much of a distinction do you think there actually is? Or do you think they're kind of like two sides of the same coin, kind of with a different label put on it? Where do you stand on the division there?
Pete
How much time do you have?
Katie
Go for it.
Pete
So I'm suspicious of religious people, which is hilarious because I'm an Episcopal priest. And it is absolutely what I'm called to do. And I started an outdoor church, which I run now. here in D.C. called Water and Wilderness Church. And we meet out, it's fully carbon neutral. It's out on the banks of the Potomac River because I wanted to bring, I wanted to make church and what we do in religion more accessible to everybody and kind of lower the barriers for entry. A lot of people look at a church and they're like, no, like stuffy people who are judgy and sometimes hateful or boring. But the foundations of what's going on in there are beautiful. They're just not really relevant, meaningful to people today. They are for some. And of course, they are for me. I gave my life to it. But how can we translate what's going on in there that was maybe really relevant for people, for a larger audience, maybe 50 or 60 years ago? And how can we take that and say, all right, let's go to where the people are, which is outside. in this beautiful place. It's why people fish. It's why, except for people like my dad, it's just about to fish. But it's why people go to the beach. It's why people go to the mountains. It's why people go to Colorado, you know, because there's something there that speaks to our soul in whatever language you want to use. And I'm the kind of priest who really values the inside stuff and I get it and I can nerd out on that stuff. But to me, there's a larger thing happening that no one religion, and especially no one denomination, has propriety over. And so people who say they're spiritual but not religious, which is a lot of people, I totally get it for a bunch of reasons. Church can be boring. The leader can be a bad one. It can feel really judgy and bring up a lot of guilt and shame. And those things are all terrible. Like I would say if you're feeling, if your church makes you feel shame, you should leave like immediately. Because that's not what God is actually about. Like this thing that we call God, which is a name that is a placeholder for the mystery of what's more than a mystery. But it's so incomprehensible that all you can do is go outside and be on the banks on the water's edge and just go, wow. Like, wow. And so I would say, you know, I think spirituality, I think where they can inform each other, because there are religious people who are not spiritual. And that's why I'm suspicious of those people, because there's no heart to it. I think people who are spiritual have some kind of sense of heart and soul, and that's so important. And that's what, at its best, any kind of ancient religion will bring to you, is a sense of heart and soul. And so for seekers, which we all are, like part of the problem, like I don't know everything. You know, I've been trained. My master's is in, and this is true, divinity. They call it that. I have a three-year degree, a master's in divinity, which is crazy. But I know how to see certain things. And there is like the history of, can I just take a couple minutes? I'm so sorry. I know this is probably boring.
Katie
No, you're good.
Pete
So there's 2,000 years post-Jesus and then thousands of years before that, which they're sort of where the line comes from, of communities of people who are thinking about God and this whole big mystery and are relating to God and praying and doing certain things. All to draw themselves closer to this magnificent mystery. And so I think over that time, like we've learned some things. So I think one of the values of religion can be like, hey, you guys don't have like we don't have to make up and discover for ourselves this giant thing that is around us. because there are thousands of years of prayer and study and thought and discussion, which surfaces some real truths. Do you know what I mean by that? Otherwise you're born and you've got 80 years to figure it. Wouldn't it be nice to stand on the shoulders of people of thought, which is what we do with philosophy and morality and other things in science, hydrology. You don't have to figure out all of your field. we learn what's come before and so that's where religion can actually but it is dangerous because some people use it as a weapon for hate and for bigotry and you know I think spirituality is such a wider angle I just think that they can at their best really inform each other religion without spirituality is dead and spirituality without community too is is can be we'll say this differently spirituality can really be informed and enhanced and deepened and strengthened within a community okay that's it
Katie
no I think I think that makes a lot of sense and I've heard a lot of people like I don't know a lot of people who are very explicitly religious but I know a lot of people who have kind of said similar things about you know I you know the outdoors is my church and so they're kind of tying it into a religion without being explicitly religious and I think kind of what they're getting at there is that they they don't need kind of that that rigid structure to feel a connection to whatever whatever it is and maybe it's not explicitly labeled God but just kind of that sense of like a greater a greater being or a greater purpose and I feel like a lot of people have a similar feeling like that especially when they're doing things outdoors. Maybe it's with the community. Maybe it's just by themselves and they like to have that quiet time to feel a connection to something. I feel like one thing that's kind of maybe missing from that is that people aren't often doing things deliberately. Like they kind of talk about how, you know, the outdoors is connecting them to something greater. And we all have kind of that sense of feeling. But I would guess that most people when they're out doing, you know, like fishing or hiking or whatever it is that gets them into that kind of state of mind, they're not actively thinking about it. It's kind of something that they they talk about after the fact, like that's how they're getting their connection. But I would guess most of those people aren't actually out there actively thinking about like the greater purpose in life or things like that. And I wonder if that's kind of where religion steps in, where it kind of gives you more of a rigid framework to actually make that connection instead of just feeling like it's this amorphous thing. But like you said, without that spiritual component, it is kind of empty, like an empty scaffolding that doesn't have anything below it. So I've heard people kind of push back on the idea of like the outdoors is my church because I think it's kind of disrespectful to actual church. As somebody who is not like a regular church goer, I don't see a problem with that statement. But I don't know if you have thoughts on people who kind of compare the act of fishing or the act of being outdoors to kind of being their church or their religion.
Pete
There's a really great book called Catching Hope, The Hidden Spiritual Wisdom of Fishing that goes into some of this stuff. I don't think it's disrespectful, but I do think it's an incomplete conversation. I absolutely agree with John Muir, who said, I'd rather be in the mountains thinking about God than be in church thinking about the mountains. And I hear people say, like, nature is my church, and I totally get what they mean by that. But where I think it's incomplete is number one, that's an individual exercise. So then your faith or your spirituality becomes all about you, like what you feel. But I think a fuller spirituality moves us out of ourselves and into the world. So when nature is my church, where does nature encourage me to serve the poor? for example which is a central tenet of of ancient traditions right any religion is going to be like like a good one is going to be like serve the poor the needy the vulnerable like there's a movement in christianity out towards the margins to help those that need help and to acknowledge that the widow the orphan the leper in our day we can translate that to other you know just people that are generally outcasts how where is the impulse from nature to go do that work so I think that's kind of missing and and you know the central if you had to boil everything in christianity down I don't think it's really about heaven or hell but I do think it's about forgiveness and one of the two of the radical things in my faith are forgiveness so we we often say christianity is ultimately about love right but apologies to people for whom this is you know a little uncomfortable but like Jesus tells us to love our enemies which is not a great selling point for christianity like hey do the hardest thing imaginable But that's actually what I'm called to do. And I don't think I get that from going out to nature. Right. But, but when I do that, I am transformed. Like if I can find a way to love the people that are mean to me, I'm not doing it just for them. I'm doing it for me. Like I, my heart grows larger and changes shape. And, and so forgiveness and service, and then like that loving people that are hard to love. These are things that make our world better. I don't think you get that implicitly, or ex explicitly from just walking in it. I think it's a spiritual practice. I mean, I, I love it so much. I said, I want to do a church totally in the forest on the banks of the river. Like, like I'm with all of the people who say nature is my church. I just wonder about, is there a fullness there that that's, not. Yeah. I think religion can have pieces like you're saying.
Katie
Well, I saw, you, you listed some bullet points. I think they're kind of, they tie into your book. Um, but they seem to, the kind of the theme I noticed across all the points was that, you know, fishing is, is in some ways like a metaphor for a lot of things in life and like the lessons you learn while fishing are applicable to life. And in some ways, maybe that kind of connects to the spirituality part that we're talking about here, where maybe not explicitly service for other people, but just kind of using fishing as a way to kind of self-reflect, I guess. And maybe you use that to be a better person, be a more empathetic or caring person because you have that time to kind of be in solitude. Like how many activities do we do these days where you actually are just in a quiet place with time to think and aren't just being bombarded with things left and right. But the common theme I noticed was just that like, there's a lot of aspects of fishing that can be kind of the same skills can be transferred over to your life and harnessed in a way that lets you be just kind of a better, a better person, a more empathetic person. And some of the ones I noticed were like reading the water, things like that. So I'll let you kind of take it away and talk about some of these things since I'm guessing you've thought about them a lot in regards to writing your book.
Pete
Yeah. And I mean, I just love fisher people because generally we know what it means to be patient. You know what it means to be disappointed. You know what it means to prepare. And I'm somebody that has ADHD, which is a total gift and frustrates me and the people around me sometimes because I don't always prepare. But I find myself out on the water. I'm tying a knot really fast because I'm like, God, the fish are there. Like, I got to get the line in the water as quick as possible. Like, why can't I just take another couple minutes to tie that knot really good? And then because I've lost fish because of a hastily tied knot. So what am I learning there about myself? Like, take a breath, slow down. You know, these are spiritual practices, right? And then as, so one of the things that I do that I encourage people to do is like when I'm tying knots, I think about the biggest fish that I could catch that day. And that this thing I'm doing right now, tying this knot is going to be what holds that fish on. And that's been a way for me to slow down, number one, and be patient and just notice the anxiety that I have and be like, okay. The fish are still going to be there in 90 seconds. And then think about the intention to not just make it a rote thing, but like to place my intention on tying this knot because it really is going to keep the fish on the line. And then when I think about my larger life and my relationship with the divine or God or even nature, like what are the knots in my life that hold things on to the hook? So that can be one of the things for me is exercise, like physical. I was a PE teacher out of college and physical exercise is really important to me. But sometimes I stop doing it. And that's an example of like the knot starting to fray. I'm not making sure the knot's tight. Yeah, check it every once in a while. It does get loose. And then all of a sudden I'm getting depressed because I'm not exercising. I'm not like that knot gets loose. You know, we have relationships with people. That's one line and another line. And then we tie those lines together. We call it a marriage, right? Well, you've got to check that knot from time to time. Otherwise, it gets frayed and all of a sudden the knots not really, the lines aren't even connected anymore. And so what does that look like? Date nights, telling you each other that you love each other, you know, listening, those sorts of things. So immediately, like just, you know, tying one thing to another, it goes from a regular old knot to what the future looks like for my life based on how I think about that. And I would say reading the beach is a huge one. You know, from the church perspective, nobody goes to church anymore. Well, read the beach, folks. Like, why are, why, if you want a certain species of fish, and this is for all organizations, for every individual. If you want a certain species of fish, typically, now you guys in Colorado, it's probably mainly trout. But if you're in another place, it's going to have different choices. You need different bait. So, you know, if you're going to match the hatch, then you need to know what the hatch is in order to match it. I would say here in D.C., when I go catfishing, I'm not going to throw a fly. to try to catch a massive catfish. They're bottom dwellers for one thing. If I'm going for shad, if I'm fly fishing for shad in the spring and the run just ended up here, I'm going to use a shad dart most likely, something like that, because that's what they eat. So if your organization or even in your life, your friends, you're feeling like you're disconnected or something's not clicking, check, like read, read your surroundings, smash the hatch and read, figure out like, okay, like the church for the church, like people aren't coming, young people don't come to church anymore. All right. Well, where are the young people? Like for me, they're in, they're in nature a lot of times. And so like, let's take what we have and go out to where the people are. And I think in so many areas of our life, we can, We can take that like, like, you know, read the room. Like if no one's laughing at your jokes, stop telling jokes. And I think, but I think anticipation is such a big part of fishing too. And sometimes I struggle with depression. And when I notice, it's when I stop anticipating something, when I stop looking forward to something, then like the light becomes kind of gray. But I think anticipating leads us to hoping, but they're not the same thing. But just to talk about hope for a second. I've been, and I think a lot of people out there struggle with mental health issues more than, and men typically don't talk about them. But I'm here to say I'm a man. I drive a pickup truck. My first concert was Randy Travis. I play guitar. I taught PE. I coach basketball. I'm a standard issue American man. And I struggle with depression and anxiety. But sometimes I can't find hope for a lot of different reasons. And I will go fishing and remind myself that fishing itself is an act of hope. because you wouldn't go if you didn't want to catch anything. If you didn't have some kind of hope that you might not even be able to recognize in yourself, you wouldn't actually cast at all. But we cast out in hope that we'll catch something. And sometimes that's at the end of two or three hours, I go home, no bites, nothing. But I tell myself, you know what? You hoped for three hours today and you're in nature and no one can take that away from you. And I mean, that's real because like lives are on the line because, you know, people take their own life because the depression just gets so bad. So at the very baseline, you can say to yourself, you can say, I didn't even care, but I hoped a little bit because I went fishing. And I think fishing can save the world in so many different ways. But that's one of them, to just recognize hope. Get off your couch. You can't do it on your phone. I'm holding my phone up. But you can't do it on your phone. You have to go outside. And once we get outside on the water, science tells us that our limbic system responds to that and calms down and quiet. That's what's in charge of our anxiety. And to me, it's a spiritual experience. I think for a lot of people, it's a spiritual experience. Water is the source of life. Everything that has life needs water, right? So we're around this source of life that holds so many mysteries underneath. And that's another thing to put ourselves at the edge of the water is like putting ourselves at the edge of God's fingertips, where underneath is the unknown and the mysterious and the magical. And every once in a while, our pole bends and we get to see this incredible creature that I say God made, but you can say happened. It's still incredible. And like everything has to be just right to catch a fish. You can read the location. You can be in the right spot. You have the right bait. You're at the right time. Fish are hungry. And they still just swim right past your fly. Like has that ever happened to you?
Katie
Most of the time I go out, yeah.
Pete
Right. It's an exercise in futility. And we do it because we love it. Because sometimes you catch a fish. And that's just a hope that you can fly on is like maybe this will be the time. And, of course, like when kids are young, you've got to catch a fish. Otherwise, they're going to be like, this is boring. And I can't go too many times without catching fish before I do get discouraged. But the act itself is – if we had a world – this is how fishing can save the world. If we had a world where everybody participated in active hope like this, we would fight less. We would care more about each other because we would be filled not with animosity and greed and hate. We would be in judgment. We would be filled with hope and hopeful people make the world better. And I think that's what we all want across all stripes. And the great thing about fishing is everybody does it. No matter how to go anywhere on the map, there's going to be people there that are like, I bet there's fish in that water. You know, like I keep my stuff in my truck. I don't like a whole thing. So that if I'm driving past a body of water, I'm like, let's go. Like, we got 10 minutes. Let's get out and see if we can get anything. And so when I was young, I was these swamps, like swampy area. And I just I was like, there's no one's fished here. I bet you no one's fished here. There's got to be a bass in here that's the size of my body. You know, of course, that's not true. Like, that's not what happens in swamps. But, like, just, like, the ability to imagine, fish are people. I'm sorry, I'm just on a roll here. Fishing people are imagination people. You know, like, we're creative and innovative. And we imagine, like, I can't fish at a place where I can't imagine that there would be fish there. So, like, we're spurring just the act of going. It spurs this imagination and creativity and wonder and awe. And all of a sudden, you're, and of course, like, in, you know, when you're fly fishing in beautiful places and you've got that river runs through it thing going. And like there's this integration where you lose yourself. You lose yourself in the center of God's ecology. You become a part of this living thing we call the ecology of the place where you are. And that, I think, is the goal of both spirituality and of religion, is to get to a place where we can lose ourselves and become part. not living on top of, but integrated into a larger ecology. Here ends the lesson.
Katie
Yeah, this is a question I don't think I would have ever guessed I'd ask on this show, but I'm curious now that you mentioned kind of like the hope, the optimism, the mystery and not knowing what's coming. This isn't a huge thing in the fly fishing world, but I know it is in conventional fishing. The idea of having like sonar that shows you where all the fish are. And like, I know people who are proponents of it are like, well, you still have to, you know, use the right lure or whatever and get the fish to take it. But it's gotten so good now that you can see like individual fish moving around down there. I know it's a lot in ice fishing, you know, you set up over top of them and you can watch the fish basically swim up to your lure, your bait, take it, hook the fish. And in some ways, I feel like it takes a lot of the magic out of fishing Because there is a lot less mystery now. You're seeing exactly what's going on down there. And on one hand, I understand the temptation because it's like, I'd always rather catch more fish than fewer fish. And that helps you find fish. But do you think technology like that takes away some of the benefit that people get kind of in that more like spiritual, deep down, those kind of benefits people get from fishing? If you kind of have it served you on a platter versus having to go through a little bit of the hardship, little bit of the optimism and the hope and the the wonder and the mystery of it
Pete
dude 100% but here's what I'll say if you're a fly fisherman and you're standing in a stream and you're you're seeing the fish it is a little bit the same
Katie
I was gonna ask that next is like is is sight fishing different but I don't know there's there's also something totally different like if you're looking at it there's some other kind of connection going on between you and the fish there at that point I I don't know how I would actually justify that.
Pete
I think that charter fishermen, guys that run charters, not on streams but on bigger water, they're doing their best to give their customers a good time. And it makes sense to me that they would use sonar. But recreational fishermen like me, I still don't have it. Well, actually, that's not true. I have it. We don't know how to use it. So we use the depth finder part, but that's it. I do think knowing the depth of water is important, but that's it. I don't like the idea that you're just like, there you can see them. There they all are. All right, let's stop right here. And yeah, there's like the hunt is a part of this, like stalking your prey kind of. And it goes back to like our primal responses as humans. Like we were hunters. And I think like that's an exciting part of, so I don't like all of the sonar fish finder stuff. I think it's really important for people that make their living doing this to be able to do that. But for the average bear, come on, dude, just get out there. We have an 18 foot center console we use when we go to the beach and I troll for Spanish mackerel. I don't know where they are. I just know you know what I do I go to it's old school like we got to get back to an analog life and fishing can lead us to that go to the bait and tackle shop and talk to the people and if they give you a bunch of crap because you're from out of town you got to go back the next day you got to figure out a way to get some local information hey where the Spanish mackerel running oh they're out mouth of the inlet which is where they usually are when go there and like you find talk to human beings that fish hey what do you got you know we're kind of known for sometimes sharing but not like our good spots but yeah I absolutely think that that putting ourselves in contest with nature just with our humanity and not with our technology is important
Katie
yeah I mean I think it's kind of the difference between somebody posting info about where to catch fish in a forum versus talking to somebody who's a friend who's like sharing their secret spot with you and it's just one of those feels a lot more personal and like it's actually you know deepening your relationship and I don't know it's it's not as icky as somebody just kind of like spot burning on a forum and the whole world knows about it but in like a really low low effort kind of way like you're just being spoon-fed information versus kind of putting the time in to deepen your connection with somebody and and use that to benefit each other by sharing information like those are two versions of the same thing but like one feels a lot richer and more engaging than the other one which is kind like slop. I feel like slop is kind of a big word these days that people are using, but it makes sense. It's just like one is low value slop, the other one is a high value enriching experience. And even if they seem similar, they're not quite the same thing.
Pete
A hundred percent. They're nowhere close to the same thing. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. One is using chat GPT to write your paper and the other one is writing your paper.
Katie
Any other metaphors that you've come across? I remember seeing that you said reading water is one of those where, and I don't know if you kind of touched on it earlier, but the idea of, I guess, being able to interpret what's going on in front of you and kind of taking that to, I don't know, I don't want to say like exploit because that's not really the right word here, but basically taking the time to stop, assess the situation and move forward with deliberate action, I guess, instead of just winging it. That's how I would interpret reading water as being kind of applicable to daily life. But I want to hear what you have to say on that.
Pete
Yeah, because you can't, Because you don't want to miss important details. And if we're in a hurry, especially, then we miss things that are really important. And I had a relationship some years ago that fell apart because I wasn't receiving the information that was being given to me. And way too late, I realized that, oh, she did say that over and over and over again. And I was like, I mean, what do you mean? And it's kind of the same as when you go out and you're not reading the water. Actually, in the Potomac River in D.C., it's tidal. So there actually is high tide and low tide, even in the nation's capital. And that makes a big difference. I tell a story in the book, in the very beginning of the book, where I went out in what's called the northern neck, where the Potomac, where the rivers run into the Chesapeake Bay. And there's great red fishing and speckled trout and other species. But I went out for the first time and it was low tide. Six, eight hours later, I was trying to find the boat dock, but it was high tide. That's a big difference. And I got lost because everything looked different because I wasn't paying attention to what the water is doing. And then I end up used to read the book, which you can get on Amazon or any online book dealer. But because of that, I ended up getting lost. And so one of the lessons that I took from that was you have to know, like really pay attention to detail and to surroundings. And if I had done that, we might have had a different outcome. right? And caused a lot of heartache for both of us because I wasn't receiving the information that I was getting. And you can, like missing things like that have really big consequences. But I think fishing can teach us to be attentive to our surroundings. And that means to your partner, That means to your friends and to, you know, if you're the only, if you are not receiving text back from you, if you're the only one reaching out like over and over and over again, like that's telling you something. Or, yeah, things slowly get colder and colder between you and somebody else, a friend or something over time. Like you're getting information. You need to act on it now. In the same way that when you go out and you look at the water and it's doing something funny, take a positive spin. You know, there's fishy water. You get out there and you're like, this water looks different over here. It looks fishy. Like that's where you fish first because it looks like there's some structure underneath. You can tell by what the water is doing on top. You can tell what's underneath it, right? People are the same way.
Katie
And the last point I remember reading that you had listed was kind of the value of being uncomfortable and in an unknown and like having things happen to you that you aren't expecting. Because in many ways, fishing does. I mean, it could be that you are out in the middle of nowhere and a storm hits you and that's kind of an unexpected unknown. It could just be, I don't know what's in this water and I'm here to figure it out. But unless you're going to a place that you've been a million times and, you know, you're kind of going through the motions, at which point I feel like it gets kind of boring. There are going to be some unknowns and some unpredictability about being out there and how that kind of benefits. Everyone would benefit from being a little more comfortable in situations like that. What are your thoughts on that?
Pete
Yeah. Well, I would say one thing, which is I don't think you ever go back to the same place. Like it's never the same, which is something that's magnificent about this world and about water and streams is that they're always changing. But to your point, a lot of people are afraid in the world today. A lot of people are afraid. What if something happens? Like we're just a bunch of afraid people. And that's also why everything is sort of shriveling up because we're so afraid that something might happen. We protect our kids too much. Because when I grew up, I'm 48, so I'm probably older than you. But when I grew up, like there are all kinds of kids in casts, like in elementary school. There was never a classroom without a kid in a cast. You're breaking your arm or your wrist or your ankle or your leg. Because you were falling out of trees. Because you were in the tree in the first place. But now kids don't do that. We put a shell around a trampoline so kids can't fall off. You're supposed to fall off the trampoline. You just are. We're not well served by protecting our kids and bubble wrapping them. It does not serve them. they're all in therapy at age 12 because we bubble wrapped them up until then and they never learned how to be resilient and I know it's hard to be a parent not not a parent so like you know send a hate mail to me but I love kids I taught kids I taught six and seven grade for five years you know all the stuff worked in east ministry my kids my sister has kids but we bubble wrap them and because we're afraid that something might happen right almost all the time nothing is really going to happen? Like people aren't out there trying to steal your kid, you know, but, but what my, I think the bigger question and the bigger danger is that nothing happens. So we ask, what if something happens? What if something happens? And I'm asking, what if not do? What if nothing happens? Like, what if you live your whole life afraid that something will happen and you never did the thing like you're afraid to fail or you're afraid to be embarrassed and you never stepped out and really live the life that you want to live the life that I would say God wants you to live and the person that God wants you to really be your full potential because we're afraid of something happens but the if we're afraid of something happening but the bigger threat is that nothing happens. And so when you fish, you're almost guaranteed that something is going to happen. And a lot of times it's not what you expected. I was fishing with a kid. I was so proud of him. We were catfishing and I left him and his dad. His dad didn't know how to fish. So I take him out and I'm a little bit away. I'm messing with my line and I hear this massive splash. And I'm like, I think he jumped in. And what happened was his pole got dragged in. And this kid's like 17. I love him for this. Just dove right in after. Who hasn't? I definitely have done that. But like, this is a surprise. Something that was unexpected. And now he is not just a kid that likes to fish. He's a kid that dove into the water after his fishing pole. And he got it. And he got the fishing, which is amazing. but like that doesn't happen if everything I'm using air quotes if everything goes right so yeah absolutely fishing is a place where things are going to happen that are uncontrolled and and we live better lives when we know how to respond to that
Katie
yeah there's a reason that uh most of the best stories are when something went wrong when everything goes to plan there's there's not usually much to talk about. That's not to say that planning is bad. We should always go out with a plan, but there's a benefit in being adaptable and knowing how to pivot when that plan inevitably goes off the rails, as it should in most cases.
Pete
Totally. We have only known how to predict the weather for a few decades. Before that, the thousands of years of human history. Now, yes, in the olden days, we knew how to use, how to read the sky better and stuff like that. But there still was just stuff would have every day be like, I don't know. Hope it's warm tomorrow.
Katie
I've thought about that. Like, what would it be like to get hit with a, like a century, like record setting snowstorm a day after it's sunny? Like, you know, here in Denver, it's like, we'll have a day that's 80. And then the next day it's 20 and like three feet of snow. And like, what would it be like to go from one day where it's sunny and 80 to the next day blizzard and and just kind of be caught off guard like that would be so strange because we're so used to knowing what's coming and like you know it's all over the news whenever you know a big change in weather is coming up it would in some ways be you know I'm sure there were tragic versions of that where people were prepared but like in some ways it would be exhilarating to wake up to three feet of snow after an 80 degree day and just like that's that's an exhilaration from the weather don't get anymore because we always know it's coming.
Pete
Totally. We're stripping the miraculous out of the world by trying to know it all. And I have to say, we're not well served by knowing that in a, well, I would say we don't know in a week from now. People tell me, they're like, what are we going to do about church on Sunday? It's going to rain. And I'm like, Sunday is six days from now. Give it a minute. It's probably not good. But then we, It's just it serves our anxiety to worry about the weather a week out and then to know. But yeah, you're right. It's a miracle when it snows and you don't know when it's going to stop. And it's like, oh, my God, it's still snowing. Isn't this great? And then like, you know, oh, my God, it's still snowing. When is it going to stop? Right. And of course, changes. Yeah, this is a nuanced thing for anybody listening, because I worked in Hurricane Katrina know recovery relief for many years after the storm so nature can do devastating things to us and it's good that we know how to protect ourselves from that but but the overall concept of not knowing I think we would pay attention more to our natural world that does give signs but it also is yeah when it's beautiful two days in a row you're like yeah oh man another really nice day but we don't have gratitude for that anymore we just expect it
Katie
and that's also and we didn't really talk about this specifically but like the presence of of fishing like you're kind of forced to be in the moment and in some ways I feel like things like a weather forecast and like I i love when a storm comes I love a thunderstorm a snowstorm like and when I see that one is in the forecast I get excited that I'm like oh I hope I hope the forecast goes up I hope they take it from six inches to 12 inches or whatever. So in some ways I like having that anticipation because it lets me get excited for what's coming. But in other ways, it would be fun to just have it sprung on you and just kind of be living in the moment of like, you never know what you're going to wake up to. And having forecasts on literally everything these days kind of takes away some of that, like living now, because you're always looking at what's coming next, what's coming next, instead of just enjoying what's going on. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. I can see the benefits, I can see the downsides, but that's another kind of aspect of fishing that, you know, you're kind of forced to just be in the moment. And you can't be thinking about what you're going to do three bends up the river from now because you've got to make it through the next couple before you can get there. And it kind of grounds you right there in a way that a lot of things, we don't get that in today's society too much.
Pete
It's an antidote to the distraction of our phones and our increasingly small attention span is to be out there and to notice and to be present. I'm holding up my phone again. These things are just distraction machines. And I use it all the time. I'm guilty. But to be present, to be present to the miracle of life is one of the things God desires for us. You know, I don't think we have to say certain words and mad, you know, like, and then we get to go to heaven after we die. I don't think that's it. That's not what this whole thing is about. This whole thing is about being present to the reality of your own life, the bad and the blessed, you know, the, the joy is something that encompasses sorrow and, and it is larger than happiness. And, and I think that, that this presence of every breath has the divine in it. And you just like fishing does that for us because of all of the things that we've talked about so far. Thanks so much for having me. It's been great to get to know you and to talk a little bit about fishing. And just one more time, it's called Catching Hope, The Hidden Spiritual Wisdom of Fishing. I want to really emphasize that this is a book that is both for people that love to fish, but also for people that don't. You know, it's a book that I think everybody can find themselves in. And you can find it on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and all the things. And if you're really interested in this, I will come to you and talk more about it. You can go to my website, PeteNunnelly.com. I'm sure it'll be in the show notes. Sorry, Katie. I'm just trying to get us out of here.
Katie
No, you're good. You didn't even make me ask you for all the stuff. You just gave it away, which is perfect. Just thank you for joining me today.
Pete
Yeah, of course. Just one more thing. You can find me on Substack at Father Pete the Wilderness Priest. My friends make fun of me because I call myself the Wilderness Priest. But it's like a really good branding, and it works.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Pete, this is great. I think a lot of people could benefit from kind of being more intentional about what they're getting from fishing. I think that's a lot of what we talked about today. So I just appreciate you taking the time for this.
Pete
Me too. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to hear how this turns out and to hopefully meet some of your listeners.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntame.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at Fish Untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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