Ep 17: Fishing and Protecting the Boundary Waters, with Lukas Leaf
Lukas Leaf is the Executive Director of Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters and is on the board of the MN chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. This episode starts with a little discussion of what the Boundary Waters Canoe Area is, why it’s important to so many people, and what the fishing is like throughout the year. Then, we get into the current threats to the Boundary Waters, most notably a mine proposal that would enable extraction right on the edge of the Wilderness area. To end on a better note, Lukas shares some of his favorite fishing stories from the Boundary Waters.
Website: https://sportsmenbwca.org/
Sportsmen BWCA Instagram: @sportsmenbwca
Lukas Leaf Instagram: @cheflukasleaf
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Intro
You're listening to The Wild Initiative Podcast Network. Learn more and check out all the shows at thewildinitiative.com.
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show I'm joined by Lukas Leaf, Executive Director of Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters. Alright, welcome to episode number 17 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I am joined by Lukas Leaf, who is the Executive Director of Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters. Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters is an organization that is currently fighting for the protection of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, which is the most visited wilderness area in the U.S. So if you've never been there, that gives you an idea of how many people truly value this area and believe it's worth protecting. and unfortunately it's currently under threat from a mining company who if things continue to go forward would be setting up a mine right on the edge of the boundary waters and although I've never had the privilege to go to the boundary waters I really hope to make it there someday and hope that when I do it's just as pristine as it is now and I'm sure a lot of other people listening also feel the same way so I was really excited to hear how Lukas and his organization are fighting that mine proposal and also how you can help even if you don't live in Minnesota you can still take a stand for protecting the boundary waters so without further ado here is my chat with Lukas Leaf all right sweet well I usually just start off with asking a bit about your fishing background and how you kind of got connected to the work you're doing now.
Lukas
sure yeah man so you know born and raised Minnesota boy uh been fishing since I could fall through an ice hole you know my dad you know and grandpa were taking me out when I was a little kid and my grandpa had a cabin on Big Sandy Lake which is in central Minnesota unfortunately we no longer have that cabin but you know spent a lot of time of course going up to the boundary waters again my dad took me there the first time when I was 12. It was for a spring opener trip for Lake Trout. So not exactly the ideal experience, first experience for a middle schooler, but ended up having like a blizzard and, you know, seeing firsthand, you know, what, what that's like and how real that can get in life-threatening situations like that are, especially when you're deep back in the wilderness like that. And I mean, honestly, I fell in love and have been going up at that time almost every year now and really have gotten into backcountry ice fishing in the last five or six years, just given the fact that I've had the opportunity to do some of it for work too. So it's given me more chances to go up there now that I work mainly on issues related to the Boundary Waters itself as the executive director of sportsmen for the Boundary Waters. But yeah, I mean, fishing is my first love. I am a hunter and a chef too, but I grew up fishing and that's pretty much my fishing story. I mean, I got tons of fun, fun stuff with fishing, but, uh, yeah.
Katie
So, um, was that the trip that sealed the deal for you? Like you're just out there in the, in the elements and it, you're like, I, you know, I want to do more of this or, or did you kind of keep getting forced to go along for a bit and it, and picked it up from there?
Lukas
I think it sealed the deal. Um, after that, I was able to continue going up with my dad and his friend and, you know, his parties that they were taking. My dad's friend, Steve Wally, we call him the Finlander. That's a whole nother story, quite the character. Guided folks up there and some folks would fly in from, you know, different states. You know, I remember guys from Virginia, California, Florida. So he had been doing that for quite some time and met my dad through painting. But them until I was about 18 or 19 and after that I branched off and started you know bringing my friends in and kind of mimicking but also building my own ways of of being out there and started started to you know guide some of my friends up and got a few of my buddies hooked and you know when we were in our early to mid 20s we started taking that annual spring trip for for lake trout on our own too. So, uh, and you know, now again, working on, on the issue itself, I have the privilege of being able to go up to the boundary waters, you know, it depends, uh, eight, 12, 16 times a year. Um, albeit sometimes, you know, short and sweet, but, uh, it's, it's always fun when you get to introduce people to something you love. So, you know, the boundary waters and fishing is, is, you know, near and dear to my heart, but you know, I'm, I'm that, that local boy that'll go sit out on a lake and a pop-up too and throw a sonar in and pound some panfish or something.
Katie
Yeah, so what's involved in backcountry ice fishing?
Lukas
Well, it can be as easy as you want it to be. It could be going on a day trip where you're just basically, So to take a step back, except for some of the border lakes of the boundary waters, which is like a 1.1 million acre wilderness area within the Superior National Forest in northeast Minnesota.
Katie
Okay.
Lukas
It's non-motorized. So during the winter for ice fishing, there's a few lakes that you can get into with snowmobiles. but there's a certain point where you're left to your own, you know, your own feet basically. Right. So you're either skiing or snowshoeing. You're pulling what's called a Polk sled, which is basically like a sled with all of your gear hooked up to a harness that you drag. And then you have portages in between each lakes that, I mean, no one grooms them unless there's some cross country skiers out on there. But so they, they can get pretty rough, icy, And sometimes you need cleats or if you're one of the unfortunate ones that decided not to bring snowshoes or skis, you're post-holing through quite a bit of snow sometimes. And then, so that day trip can be as much as an hour in and a couple of lakes. And then you have to hand drill all your holes with a hand auger. Or it can be, you know, a week-long trip. I've, you know, when you do four or five nights and you're in a wall tent with a wood stove. Or if you want to get really crazy, you can build snow shelters and just have your own campfires in spots too. So it's definitely a different experience than just going on, you know, like a regular backcountry fishing trip and, you know, the other three seasons of the year that we have here, you know, spring, summer and fall, of course. And you definitely have to have your stuff together because, you know, one small wrong move and, you know, you twist a knee or break an ankle, it's pretty tough to get out of there. So there's a handful of things that you want to make sure you have. And that's, you need to have shelter, need to have warm clothing, need to have a way to start a fire. And you need to have a way to call out in case of an emergency. And in the case of the Boundary Waters, that's a satellite phone. That's pretty much your only option.
Katie
Now, are you camping on the ice then? Or are you camping on nearby land and just walking out to fish?
Lukas
You can do either way. Okay. I've done both. In the actual permitting season of the Boundary Waters, which goes from April 1st to October 1st, you're only allowed to stay at designated campsites that have a U.S. Forest Service cast iron grate that kind of shows where the actual campsites are in the Boundary Waters. But in the winter, you can camp out on the ice. You can camp anywhere on land that you like. um you know it's same premise as anything else is make sure you clean up after yourself and and and or leave it better than it was before so
Katie
so is the I want to get into the Boundary Waters a little bit because I've I've never been there but I'd really like to go um but I at the same time I don't know a ton about it I I know what I've heard from other people which is just a lot of you know talking about how amazing the you know just the isolation you feel there and and the fishing is great too. But do you just want to kind of give an overview of what the Boundary Waters is? And then also maybe talk about the actual wilderness area, you know, versus the general area of that, you know, region.
Lukas
Sure. Yeah. So kind of the high level description is, you know, the Boundary Waters is nearly 1.1 million acres of public land and water, meaning that's accessible to everyone, like I mentioned before, via permit during certain times of the year. But it also means as public land, it is owned by everyone. So it is a part of that greater 646 million acres of public land and water that we are fortunate to have here in the United States. It's a vast boreal forest in northeastern Minnesota that consists of interconnected lakes, streams and wetlands and provide some of the best fishing and hunting the world has to offer. So you have a lot of folks that travel to the boundary waters, both locally, nationally, and from the world for that one of a kind chance to pursue. You know, we have native cold water fisheries for lake trout, walleye, smallmouth bass, northern pike, and then folks hunt white-tailed deer, rough grouse, black bear. And it's really that true backcountry wilderness, like landscape, that experience and kind of what you mentioned before. It's that quiet experience, that solace. You know, you're away from normal society. It's a way to kind of take a step back and recharge your batteries. But, you know, the Boundary Waters is inside the Superior National Forest. And the Superior National Forest that houses the BWCA in northern Minnesota actually holds 20% of the freshwater in the entire national forest system. So that's, you know, 20% of the freshwater in 3 million out of 193 million acres. So it's a staggering number, right? Yeah. And as I mentioned before, there's border lakes or border route lakes too. And some of those are accessible up to a certain horsepower for motorized boats. But the rest of the wilderness itself, the rest of the boundary waters itself, is not motorized. So it's mainly traversed by canoe and over portages, which are basically the trails that were carved out over time. And when this was first, you know, this area was first established in between lakes. So you have to carry all your gear, pack all your gear in and out. It's pretty fun.
Katie
Yeah, that's kind of the impression I've gotten from it. We've got plenty of wilderness areas out west, and it's the same thing, no motorized vehicles. And you still get that isolation and the solitude and just the quiet feeling that you don't quite get in other national forest areas. I feel like it's just a different, it's just different having it be, you know, majority water, almost majority water, where out here we don't have that. So, you know, yeah, you're out there and it's usually a little bit more peaceful than some of the other, you know, national forests or public land areas, but people are still kind of, you know, they're based out of the same trail network. So, you know, you might go off trail, but everyone's kind of originating at the same point. You're kind of following along the same trail, maybe branching off here and there, but it sounds like you're in the boundary waters, it's a lot more free for all in that you can just kind of go and you have, you know, all of the water is your trail. Is that, is that a fairly accurate representation of it?
Lukas
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, there's, there's certain regulations you have to follow. Like when you, when you purchase a permit, you have to, you know, enter on a specific day that you purchase a permit for at the, at a specific entry point. Okay. Besides that, the sky's the limit, you know, you can go whichever way you want. If I would certainly recommend against bushwhacking through instead of following the trails, but you could do that if you wanted to. And yeah, I mean, it's a vast, you know, water rich area. So yeah, you're spending a lot of time on the water and that's why, you know, fishing is so popular there too.
Katie
And you said you have to camp at their kind of designated camping locations, but you can go to other areas on land that aren't designated as long as you're not camping there.
Lukas
Correct.
Katie
Okay. And are those, I mean, how frequent are those? Is there one on pretty much any island you stop on or is it you have to kind of keep a map?
Lukas
Yeah.
Katie
Okay.
Lukas
Just other areas for you to stop at. I mean, you can, you know, all you need is a foot. You can stop wherever you want, to be honest. But yeah, there's plenty of cool spots where you can, you can, you know, park your canoe and lay back and either take a nap or have lunch or fish or swim, you know, at the right time of year, of course. super cold in the spring, though I've tried swimming in that. You're kind of diving straight in and immediately as you hit the water, you're coming right back in. But yeah, so I mean, it's, that's what's so cool about it. You know, camping, a lot of the times, you know, there's kind of two different campers too. You know, some that like to really travel hard and go hard and put the miles in, which is great. I love doing that. And then there's the folks that, you know, want to relax and kind of soak it all in and, you know, maybe do a base camp and take day trips and come back. Just as long as you're staying at that campsite, you know, with one single permit, which is another regulation, you can't split off into two campsites with only one permit.
Katie
Okay. But the permit is not specific to a specific campsite. You can just go, as long as you have a permit, you can bounce between them.
Lukas
Yeah. And, you know, for safety purposes, you're, you're giving a, a, a general idea of destination. So if something happens or maybe you don't come out on a day, you propose that you might be back out. At least folks have an idea of where to look for you, because if you do get back fairly far, you know, a, you stop running into people, um, because they're on shorter trips and aren't making the effort to go back as far and, and B, I mean, you have no way of contacting anybody, like I said, unless you have a satellite phone. And so a lot of the outfitters and lodges and places that do that sort of outfitting and guiding up there recommend bringing that sat phone. I, as far as my understanding. I don't think you see it as much of that as you probably could.
Katie
And do you find that there's kind of hot spot? Because isn't this wilderness area the most visited wilderness area in the U.S.?
Lukas
It is, yes.
Katie
Now, do you find that there are kind of hot spots of people, you know, at specific launch points, but it's pretty easy to get away from the crowds? Or like, how many people are you kind of seeing out there if you're actually, you know, making a trip out of it and heading in?
Lukas
Does it thin out pretty quickly? It does thin out pretty quickly. I mean, you know, it's like with any space, you know, if you're going fishing opener, Memorial Day, Labor Day, you're bound to just run into a ton of people. The way that the U.S. Forest Service has the permitting system set up is there's only a certain amount of permits allowed per entry point per day. So their goal there is to kind of keep that clutter from happening, though you are going run into it every once in a while.
Katie
Okay. Anyway, can you just tell me about the fishing there for a little bit? Just, you know, what, yeah, I mean, you know better than I do even what to ask, but just, I've, I've heard such good things about, about the fishing there. And I grew up fishing for some of those species that I'd love to hear, you know, what, what a fishing experience is like in the Boundary Waters.
Lukas
Well, I mean, you know, for, I, I kind of walked through like the year, honestly. Um, it's December now. So, uh, lake trout up there opens at the end of the month. It's either December 31st or January one. Um, I'd have to look back at the regs. It changes a couple of days every year, but, um, so it's, it's kind of prime time ice fishing. It's been cold here as of late, I think as it's been cold everywhere as of late. So, uh, the ice fishing season is definitely starting a bit earlier. Folks are out on the lakes right now, you know, just kind of getting their feet wet and fishing for walleye and crappie and, and those are probably the main two. And now, you know, when lake trout starts, that's, that's the big draw for the boundary waters and in the winter for fishing, at least. Okay. Pike is Northern Pike as well. But yeah, I mean, the lake trout fishing up there is phenomenal. It's by far my favorite, uh, experience in the Boundary waters. So, um, you know, I have a couple of projects lined up where I specifically make sure that it involves doing some type of ice fishing up there. And, and, uh, it's, it's, it's just so much fun. And like I described earlier, you know, you get out a couple of lakes and you're out there for the day. You may see one cross-country skier go by, but for the, for the most part, you're sitting in silence and having fun. And maybe a tip-up pops up here and there and, you know, sitting and jigging. It's, yeah, it's exciting too. So especially when you, you know, earlier in the season when the lake trout are still schooled up a little bit too, you can have some fun very quickly. But that season goes all the way through the end of March. So you have plenty of opportunity to get in an ice fish too. So, I mean, certainly hear anybody listening, I would encourage them to at some point at least, you know, try fish, ice fishing in the boundary waters. It, it's not as daunting as it sounds. And, you know, if you know a couple of folks that have done it before, that can point you in the right direction. It's, it's, it's pretty easy to get done and then, then you kind of have, you know, from, from March into the beginning of May, which is when fishing opener is here. It's, That's kind of that more of a dead zone except for some stream trout fishing. Most of the Boundary Waters lakes do not hold stream trout, though there are some that'll have brook brown and rainbow trout. There's a lot of border lakes up there that you can hit too, so that's a lot of fun. Just kind of fill the time in between that and fishing opener. But, uh, yeah, fishing openers is, like I said, kind of what I grew up doing. And there have been years that I've gone in, uh, on 80 degrees and there've been years that I've gone in at 30. It's just, it's a complete crapshoot. And not only is that a huge, this, a huge disparity in, in temperatures from trips that can also happen like in back to back days, which is crazy.
Katie
Okay.
Lukas
Because you have Lake Superior, which we call Gichigumi, and if something starts blowing off of that and you have your normal northwest storm fronts pushing in, it can go from a nice mild early spring day to complete craziness overnight. So that also creates some fun barometric pressure changes for fishing too.
Katie
So do you notice a different, like, do you notice, are you looking for specific changes when you're going out there?
Lukas
Yeah, just hard spikes, hard spikes, you know. So I like to see something, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a high pressure, low pressure, just as long as you see a hard spike, generally some cloud cover, of course, because these fish are really shallow. And this is in the winter too, lake trout specifically on Northern Pike as well. So they're very shallow and you can practically fish them from shore. And this is fly fishing or spin casting, however you like to do it. And yeah, it's, it's a ton of fun. It's a totally different experience than a couple months later when you get into the fact that the water starts warming, lake trout really like cold, clean, oxygenated water. So they have to retreat very deep, very quickly.
Katie
And so how deep is deep there?
Lukas
Gosh, I should know what the deepest point is. But for a normal lake, especially some that I fish, you're looking at somewhere between like 8 and 120 feet. Okay. So not necessarily, not necessarily retreating all the way to the bottom but pretty far and enough to matter
Katie
especially like fly fishermen who probably aren't you know going to get down that low
Lukas
no that's not happening I mean your your your chances for for bagging a lake trout on the fly are that first month for sure okay in may just because I mean even even with like sinking leaders
Katie
yeah you're just not going to get down you're not going to get that low yeah so then how about the rest of the year what what happens after that
Lukas
um June is when, well May as well, as I mean it's super popular for walleye so may and June are really popular for walleye um that's when you see you know walleyes are state fish so people are you know just tickled to go up and target them personally I really like walleye. I grew up fishing them. I have a permanent fish house that we drag out onto a big lake in central Minnesota and ice fish and drink beer and whatever. It's not really that professional. But I'm not saying that the fish is necessarily overrated, but there are definitely some better tasting fish in my opinion. I think fresh lake trout from those lakes up there is great. Pike, even from a really cold, crisp, like winter water is awesome. Whitefish, kind of an overrated or underrated fish, you know, generally considered a trash fish, no limit. A really great fish too. But back to your question, June is when topwater smallmouth happens. Boundary waters is amazing smallmouth territory, both on the west and east side. So you have kind of two gateway city, town cities, Grand Marais and Ely. Kind of a bit different landscape. You know, the west side is a little more rolling hills. And then the east side is kind of cliffy and elevation changes and has a lot of those deep bowl glaciated lakes where you find the lake trout as well. But also some really cool smallmouth lakes. Not nearly as many as the Ely side, but it's a really cool one. So smallmouth up there is pretty awesome, in my opinion. And that's also a great time for pike on a fly, too.
Katie
Okay, so it's not that all the shallow water fishing goes away. It's just the lake trout retreat back down deep when it starts to warm up. You're still fishing surface for other. Okay, okay.
Lukas
Yeah, this is like, I think, you know, lake trout, I feel like you have to have had the experience to know how great that fishing can be up there.
Katie
Okay.
Lukas
So as soon as you have that or you've talked to someone, I mean, that's, for me, that's always been number one. But, you know, I think the big draw for folks fishing is definitely walleye, smallmouth, and pike. Just because it's that time of the year, it's a little safer. The water's a little bit warmer. you may run into some bugs but um generally you know that's when folks have a bit more time to head up there too so early may it can be tough can be cold so some folks just tend to avoid that which I totally understand because yeah two different styles of fishing
Katie
I mean there's a time to get after it there's a time to just hang out in the nice weather and exactly that's the line so what's your what's your I know you said uh you know backcountry ice fishing is that your absolute preferred way to go or are you kind of a year-round whatever's whatever's in season, what's your style?
Lukas
yeah I mean if I can get the opportunity I'll definitely go out you know I again I grew up on a lake with my family you know small motor boats bobber fishing you know so my dad's a big troller so I mean I'll take any opportunity I can get I mean over the past few years, I've spent a lot more time, um, personal time going up to the boundary waters for stuff. Uh, but, uh, you know, if it's a local lake and I can get out there with some friends for a day, I, I totally enjoy that. And like I said before, we have, we have a permanent ice fishing shack. It's about 10 by 16 that we, that gets dragged out onto the ice every year and, um, on Mille Lacs Lake in central Minnesota. So that's fun. That's more of like a, a moving target, small cabin on the ice that you drill holes into and kind of fish in. So, uh, yeah, I mean, it's hard to nail down one thing that I would specifically prefer to do, but I mean, I guess the two things that I strive to pull off every year are that spring trip and up ice fishing at one point
Katie
okay so i was gonna transition over to talking about sportsmen for the boundary waters but i think maybe it makes more sense to start with the threats facing the boundary waters because i assume that that that's probably what led to the creation of of some of these um you know organizations that are fighting for the boundary waters and and their protection. So I do think that's a logical place to go next.
Lukas
Yeah, that's fine.
Katie
All right. Well, I'll let you take it away because I know you'll know a lot more than I do about like what threats they're facing right now.
Lukas
Sure. So Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters was kind of established as a hunting and angling voice for protecting the Boundary Waters from proposed sulfide or copper mining in its watershed. It's a rainy river watershed. so basically what you know we were formed to do was to protect the integrity of this area and its watersheds for huntable and fishable populations of fish and wildlife and I'm reading our mission statement because it describes it the best now and forever through advocacy and education right so we work with other groups like backcountry hunters and anglers Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, National Wildlife Federation, you know, at the local level, I'm on the Minnesota BHA board as well, Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. And again, our main mission at this current point, and this has been a longstanding battle since our organization was founded in 2015, is to prevent this proposed mine from being built at the doorstep of the Boundary Waters. So it's Twin Metals Minnesota, which is wholly owned by Anapagasta. It's a Chilean mining conglomerate. Sulfide copper mining is a type of mining that's never been done, especially in a water-rich environment like the Boundary Waters, without polluting in some form. Particularly, the byproducts from this type of mining create what's called acid mine drainage. So it's kind of a toxic slurry of heavy metals that leach into the groundwater and, you know, surrounding wetlands. And like I said, this is a very interconnected space with those wetlands, aquifers, and the lakes and streams. You know, it's a glaciated area, you know, carved over millennia too. So again, that water-rich environment is very susceptible to this type of pollution. So that's the big thing that's happening right now. In its current state, it has gone through some federal work at this point. There's been some environmental studies done, one not completed and canceled, which was very unfortunate. And now it has gone to the state level, and we are at this point expecting a mine plan of operation to be submitted by Twin Meadows. In fact, we just did a press conference today to kind of get ahead of that at the state capitol. That's really what that submittal of this mine plan does is kick off a state permitting process that will also kick off another environmental study, one being done by the feds and also one being done at the state level. the one at the state level is being done because the federal, at the federal level, some information is being suppressed. So the state doesn't trust that the, at the federal level that, you know, studying the impacts of this type of mine in this area can be done properly. So a lot of moving parts. It's very unfortunate. In the end, you know, So the robust economy that this place, the Boundary Waters, supports, the outdoor economy that supports in northeastern Minnesota is far more sustainable and can remain there in perpetuity comparatively to a boom and bust economy that this type of mining will produce. And the benefits far outweigh the negatives of this type of mining up there, too.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like that's something that often gets overlooked. I mean, I feel like this is the same thing with Bristol Bay. You have a threat that people support it because it's an economic driver, and they completely overlook the fact that it's not like this is happening out in the middle of – I don't want to say in the middle of nowhere because that's kind of what the Boundary Waters is, is getting to be out in the middle of nowhere. But it's in a place that's already a huge economic driver for that area. I mean, like I said, that's the most visited wilderness area in the U.S. You think that's not, you know, driving the economies of the, you know, local towns in that area. And I feel like people overlook that.
Lukas
Yeah. And, you know, it's also not a black and white issue. And we totally understand that, too. And we're very sympathetic to that and, you know, understand that folks up there are looking to this to create jobs and otherwise in a space where, you know, this, you know, mining jobs actually do not exist anymore. Right. Minnesota is and always has been primed as a great producer of taconite and iron ore. So it's a wonderful mining economy up in northeast of Minnesota, but it's just not driven by this type of mining, which has never been done here before. So obviously that's an issue. The fact of the matter is, like I mentioned before, too, how robust that outdoor economy is up there is it provides and supports more jobs and will create more jobs that will remain there for a very long time comparatively to anything that Twin Metals pitches that this mine will create.
Katie
So why there? Why specifically right on the edge of the Boundary Waters does the mining need to happen? Is that just the location that, you know, the resources exist? Or is it possible for the mining to happen but just not happen in this exact location?
Lukas
Well, the issue is the copper deposit, which is one of the largest in the world, is located at its shallowest point where Twin Metals owns the two leases that they are proposing to build this mine at. So you have that issue there as well, where they want to obviously begin extracting this copper. The mineral within the tailings as well is less than 1%. So, you know, you're looking at, I believe it's, they downgraded to what they're excavating to 20,000 tons a day, but it's a very small amount of mineral that they're pulling out per that. So it's a tough situation. Yes, we do need critical minerals like that, though it's not on the U.S.'s critical mineral list. We also have a, I believe it's around 150 or store of copper already given our current consumption. And, you know, you'll hear the argument that you need it for your cell phones. We need it for the computer that you and I are talking, you know, on right now. You need it for electric cars. You need it for windmills, windmills for sustainable energy. You know, the list goes on. But something also that's overlooked too is copper is one of the most recyclable minerals in the world as well. So folks are developing great ways to do that sustainably so we don't have to threaten wonderful places like the Boundary Waters anymore.
Katie
And when they're doing the mining, you talked about the acid mine drainage. Is that something that occurs in the instance of some sort of catastrophic failure on the part of the company? Or is this something that leaches in, you know, assuming everything goes as planned, it still happens? Or is this a worst case scenario situation?
Lukas
It's when the sulfide bearing rock is introduced to water or air, it ends up producing sulfuric acid. And that is the main byproduct of that. So again, you have what is going to be both an underground and an above ground tailings facility. and in a water-rich environment and also one where it happens to rain a lot as well and also built over backfilled wetlands. So you're getting hit from water at every angle here, specifically in a space where the chemical reaction is extremely detrimental to the surrounding area, including the chemical balance of the water itself via pH level. and the metal levels of the water itself and also within the wildlife species and the fish. So it just makes no sense.
Katie
What do you do with the Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters? What is Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters doing to fight this and what is your particular role there?
Lukas
I work as the executive director. We fight this from all angles at a local level that is boots on the ground, introducing folks to this, getting, you know, media and elected officials up to see exactly what's at stake, to work within the town to get speakers and advocates on behalf of the area. We work at a state level, both within agencies and legislatively. We work with our partners, both local and national. These are, you know, nonprofit partners. Um, we also work at a federal level and, you know, we're out in DC meeting with agencies, meeting with, with, uh, elected officials, educating them and advocating on behalf of the Boundary Waters itself. So, uh, it's, it's a full-time constant battle to, uh, to work on this issue, but it's something that's very important to us.
Katie
Do you find that you have a lot of support from the locals there or is it kind of divided?
Lukas
It's pretty divided. It's a divisive issue. You know, you have the folks that want to make sure that, you know, this place is included, that, you know, everyday life can continue the way it is and as should. And then you have the folks that are really advocating for the creation of the mine to create jobs within the local economy. And, you know, there's, of course, a lot of belief on one side that it can be done safely and fairly. And then, of course, there's us who believe that based on sound science and facts and peer-reviewed papers and studies that it just simply cannot.
Katie
Is there something that you want to share that people can do to support your work and, you know, help protect the boundary waters, regardless of whether they live in that area? maybe they just want to see it in their future or just know that it exists?
Lukas
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first and foremost, check out our website and educate yourself more at Sportsmenbwca.org. We have plenty of information there. Also, ways for you to take action to participate. But secondly, and most importantly, is make a call to your local elected official, whether that be your state senator, house rep, local rep, county commissioner, it doesn't really matter. Educating folks on the issue and putting it on their plate is going to go a long way and help to nationalize the issue itself. So I'd say that's the biggest one. And make sure you educate yourself. Fill out a petition. Get involved. Hold an event. The more you raise your voice, the more you advocate for an issue, the more people can hear you.
Katie
Yeah, I know it's hard to replace an actual call to your representatives, but if, you know, if for some reason you're, you know, strapped for time or whatever, I feel like BHA has done some pretty, or made some easy ways to contact your representatives where all you have to do is go on and fill out your name and your location and they will send it on your behalf, which, you know, I know a lot of people say it's not as good as actually picking up the phone, but it's, you know, sure a lot better than doing nothing at all. So.
Lukas
Yep. And we absolutely do that too. So, you know, you can hop right on our website and you'll see contact your representative or sign the petition. Plenty of ways, you know, and of, and of course, you know, I think one of the most important is see the place for yourself. There's, there's nothing more important and more impactful than seeing what's threatened and what may disappear, you know, and also as a nonprofit, if it's something you're passionate about, please donate. You know, all your money goes to our efforts and nothing else.
Katie
So I guess that's a good I wasn't going to get into this. I don't want to make this a, you know, plan your own trip kind of show. But if someone wants to come visit the Boundary Waters, do you have a quick and easy, you know, where should where should someone plan to fly into? You know, where's the best gateway to get to the Boundary Waters? Is it easy to get a permit? You know a couple high level things that people can do to plan their own trip there
Lukas
yeah I mean first feel free to reach out to me or or anybody on our team I mean you can contact us via our website and i'd be happy to help you out though we're not generally an outfitter we want to make people can see this spot um and frankly the easiest way to do it too is is just hop online check out you know, look up like Boundary Waters Outfitters and give a couple people a call, you know, say, hey, how's the fishing? You know, what's the best time to do this? You know, people want you to come up there and they're going to help you out and give you whatever you need to make your trip happen. So it's really that easy. And most of those outfitters can help you with the permitting too. They do it right there. They also do fishing licenses.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Lukas
Yep. They rent all the gear.
Katie
Can you rent a canoe? Can you do that?
Lukas
You can rent literally everything except for the clothes and basic necessities that you have to bring for yourself. So packs, you know, some folks do fishing gear. They provide guides, tents, sleeping bags, canoes, all that stuff.
Katie
Are these outfitters located like right at the edge of the boundary waters or would you need a vehicle that could haul a canoe to the edge of the boundary waters for you?
Lukas
Well, it could go both ways if you want to do it yourself. Yes. Otherwise, most of the outfitters will take everything down there for you and pick you up if you'd like. That's part of the package.
Katie
Okay.
Lukas
And, you know, you can do this as in-depth as you want and they can provide food or you can do it as minimal as you want, you know. And, um, a lot of cases folks will have their own gear and, you know, they don't own a canoe. So they'll just rent a canoe for, you know, somewhere around, I think 30, 40 bucks a day and, uh, head up and do that. So it's, it's, uh, the, the cool thing is you have a lot of options.
Katie
Yeah. It sounds pretty affordable if you get a couple people in a canoe and have your own gear. So that's like basically the cost of a flight and just the permit and renting the canoe.
Lukas
Yeah. Put your food together. And if you have your, yeah, if you have your own gear, that's, that's the cheapest way to go.
Katie
Awesome. Well, the one last thing I did want to ask on a more positive note is if you have just like one or two really good stories from the Boundary Waters that either funny or whatever you want.
Lukas
Hmm. Man, let me think here. I guess maybe I'll tell a couple. Okay. maybe these will go into the kind of what not to do stories perfect those are always the best yeah yeah I like those um so on one of the first ice fishing trips that I did um oh gosh I don't even know how long ago this was doesn't really matter it went with a buddy of mine who lives in Grand Marais which is on the southeastern portion uh in northeastern Minnesota before kind of like that gateway city I was talking about before you go up into the Boundary Waters. And we were going to do a couple night ice fishing trip. Our bright idea was, well, we're just going to go in and build a snow shelter. It's not going to be that cold. Why not? Let's, let's get at that. Let's go in there. He brought a pop up just so we could fish at night if we wanted and kind of stay warm. Everything was great. You know, I think we kind of half-assed built it when we should have taken a little more Snow is a little dry. So in the end, we didn't quite make enough room for ourselves, but I'll get to that. Fishing was OK. You know, we built a nice little bonfire out on the ice that we cleaned up, which for everybody listening, make sure that you clean all that stuff up and bring it back into the woods if you do have a fire on the lake, because you do not want that soot and burnt wood sinking into the lake as it can leave some trace chemical residues that are not good for fish. So classic leave no trace kind of idea. So my buddy and I build a snow shelter. Boy, did we think we were smart. It was a beautiful day and the temperature dropped like 30 degrees overnight. and I remember being in there just like shivering laying in the snow and both of our feet are like sticking out of this thing so we decide to get up and just fish it's like three o'clock in the morning you know like well we're not sleeping so we might as well just fish we go into the we go into the ice house you know it's well not the pop-up itself had a couple holes drilled he had his sonar we were switching back and forth this was before i bought one also game changer especially out in the boundary waters if you feel like hauling it out it's having that sonar um fishing is just going crap we're sitting there cold we know we're not going back into this half-ass ice shelter that we built. It's supposed to be like igloo-style, Quincy. Not big enough for us, but it is what it is. And I'm jigging. He's taking a break. I have the sonar. And all of a sudden, I see this big red blip kind of pop up off of the bottom. And I'm like, okay, let's see their fish or we're just delirious and my mind is playing a trick on me. So I kind of, I brought the, I was kind of pounding the bottom a little bit, you know, just because we're in like 15, 16 feet of water and trying to just drum up some action. And I just slowly lifted my lure up and it just gets hammered. And again, we're both kind of delirious. So I'm trying not to make sure I shear my line off in the hole because this thing is just running like crazy and almost spooling me. So I have to keep reeling in enough lines so the thing doesn't spool me. After about 15 minutes, we get a couple of glimpses, definitely a big lake trout. So he's screaming at me, you know, trying to tell me what I'm supposed to be doing so I don't lose it, which is kind of like the classic when you're sitting in something with someone, you know, the person that's yelling at you knows better and they want you to do a certain thing.
Katie
Backseat driving.
Lukas
Yep. And so, I mean, we're both playing off each other. It's fine. another 10 minutes goes by a few more runs finally we get this thing in and weigh it out almost 15 pounds probably the biggest lake trout i've ever it is the biggest lake trout i've ever caught ice fishing uh on this lake by far and we both had that kind of you know uh moment where we sat down and just couldn't believe that it happened took some a couple really shitty photos which I'm super fond about uh never really got a great picture of it besides me just look like this shitty grin on my face and him trying to take a picture within this little small space and then we both ended up kind of trying to take a nap sitting down in that ice shelter and didn't sleep for like two days and just kind of kept doing the same thing so uh long story short and what i would recommend everybody is don't ever do that um it will not work if you bring in a regular tent um it will ice shelters will work if you do them right but take the time to haul in a canvas tent with a wood stove because you will be very happy that you did that
Katie
but it sounds like if you if you build a shelter to small and get and basically kick yourselves out
Lukas
that you might catch the biggest lake trout you have so yeah silver lining I guess i don't know yeah weird time of night too but yeah so um that's probably my craziest ice fishing story I mean at least in the boundary waters most of the time it's just cold and and fun but um maybe one more back to the finlander that's why I have to tell a story about him. Sure, go for it. So, I mean, he was a character for sure. Like I said, he's a guy that, that, you know, led all the trips that, you know, my dad grew up going with him. And again, like, you know, I, my first 10, 12 trips were with him as well, but just, you know, 6'2", 6'3", 230, pretty big, you know, bearded Finnish dude that definitely thought every way he did things was correct, but yet he was just kind of a messy person, but a phenomenal fisherman. But halfway through the first day, his hands would always be so black with soot that every piece of food that he cooked for you ended up having black soot on it. So you just kind of got used to it. And then he'd make these gigantic batches of like fish chowder and we'd eat it. And then he'd set it aside and say, oh, it's cold enough out. You're going to eat that again tomorrow. So then you end up having to eat this cold fish chowder that's been sitting out generally for like breakfast or lunch the next day too. But the stories are just endless. I mean, I could hear him across the lake sometimes like preaching to my friends are like screaming something crazy from scripture or something. And, you know, this is, you know, 45, 50, like I said, I mean, he's, he's a presence. Let's just put it that way. And so, you know, call him the Finlander. His name was Steve Wally, but he also had a alter ego at camp named Frank Meckie. I don't, I still to this day don't understand why, but, and he made t-shirts with, with that name on it.
Katie
So that was a self-described name? That wasn't something you guys gave to him?
Lukas
No, no, no, no. So in camp, we just called him Frank. I still don't know why, but that's just the way it was. And yeah, he was just a crazy character. He always carried this 80-pound three-person Grumman, aluminum Grumman, no matter canoe, no matter how many people were going to be with him. never used his hands. The thing bounced with this yoke on him because he had this like canvas yoke, big canvas Duluth pack, you know, constantly smoking cigarettes. And it is again, just a sight to see, but the man could fish and definitely taught us one of the main ways that I still fish for lake trout in the spring up there, which is these, um, water filled, um, torpedo slip bobbers. it's a crazy setup that people kind of shake their heads at me when I try and describe it, but it works beautifully. And so you don't really have a stop for this. This is more or less kind of drift bottom fishing, but what we use is salted shiner minnow. So throughout the year, you know, I'll buy up shiners and salt them and freeze them. So it's like, you're not using any like chemical preservatives. you're just using pickling salt but so at the end it's just that water-filled slip bob are half filled with water so it lays flat in the water and then at the bottom you have you know whatever kind of attractors you want with like torpedo slip sinkers that push all that down to the hook where that salted shiner is you cast out into say like a channel from shore as that's like kind of floating down the channel the line is sinking so I'm like trying to do this visual you know where you're almost like trolling down like 30 40 feet until it hits the bottom and then it drags a little bit but these fish are so voracious and so hungry in the spring when they're fattening back up after the end of of the winter that they're just picking everything up and it's a first eating that they can, that they can eat. And they have that, it has that attracted smell on it too. So the fishing is just great. Um, it's a crazy way to do it, but you know, the majority of folks that go up there, uh, tend to sit in canoes at, even at that time of the year and, and troll, uh, which works great. Um, but this is just a fun way to do it where, um, you know, if, after you catch a couple of fish that if you're going to have a meal that night, and if you want to sit and, you know, fish recreationally and have some fun, you just clip the barbs on your hooks and, and, uh, you can really get into a lot of fish. So thanks, uh, Finlander slash Frank Mackey slash normal name, Steve Wally. I haven't seen in a while, but Hey, that was his way. And it's still ours, our way to this day.
Katie
I feel like everyone's got one of those friends who's just a little bit out there, but that's, you know, what makes them great.
Lukas
Yeah, for sure. No, I wouldn't have had my first experience any other way than kind of learning the ropes from him and developing my own styles of guiding up there afterwards.
Katie
Is he still around or?
Lukas
You know, no, we haven't seen him in a while. Again, eccentric person, had some ideas of traveling, and we haven't heard from him since. So, Frank, if you hear this podcast, give Dad or I a call.
Katie
I'm sure he's out there brightening someone's day.
Lukas
Yeah, seriously.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Lukas, do you just want to share, once again, where people can find you or Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters if they want to contribute or help out?
Lukas
Yes, absolutely. You can certainly find my contact information on the website as well as our other folks, Lukas, L-U-K-A-S, at Sportsmenbwca.org. If you need any help trying to get up to the Boundary Waters or have any questions, otherwise check us out at Sportsmenbwca.org for any information you'd like and to learn more about some of the issues that we're tackling that pertain to the Boundary Waters and here in Minnesota.
Katie
Awesome. Well, hopefully I'll be hitting you up someday to get your advice on where to go and how to do it.
Lukas
You definitely should. That'd be awesome.
Katie
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it and hope that people have either been inspired to go to the Boundary Waters or maybe conjured up some of their good memories from there.
Lukas
Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. It was a pleasure.
Katie
All right. Take care. All right. And that'll do it. As always, if you liked what you heard, go ahead and go over to the Wild Initiative podcast. You can subscribe there and get my shows bi-weekly on Thursdays, as well as all of Sam's other shows throughout the week. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to backcountry fly fishing articles. You can find me on social media under my name, Katie Burgert, on Go Wild or at fishuntamed on Instagram. And I will see you all back here in two weeks. All right. Bye, everybody.
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