Ep 13: Fly Fishing New Zealand, with Mel Moss (Part 2)
Mel and I have been friends for years, and she’s one of my favorite people to fish with. So naturally, when she decided to spend a month fishing in New Zealand, I wanted to pick her brain about her trip and the logistics behind planning a destination fly fishing trip. Mel did her trip totally DIY, and she shares plenty of tips for anyone looking to do a trip over there. Of course, we also got into her stories of success and heartbreak. This is part 2 of a two-part series.
Instagram: @mossy_mel
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Intro
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show, I'm talking to one of my best friends, Melanie Moss. Alright, welcome to episode number 13 of the Fish Untamed Podcast. I'm going to keep this section short and sweet today. This is part two of my two-part talk with Melanie Moss about fly fishing in New Zealand. If you have not yet listened to part one, I would highly recommend going back and starting with that because you will be completely lost when we start part two. So I'm going to cut it off there and jump right back into my conversation with Melanie Moss. Okay, so tell me about the backcountry hut.
Mel
So backcountry huts are really popular in New Zealand. Did you ever go and stay in one?
Katie
Uh-uh, no.
Mel
Okay. So that's one of the big things there is because they have a lot of, they call them tracks, not like hiking trails. Um, and they have, and they call them the, the New Zealand great walks. Um, or they basically they're there's tracks that go on for, you could, you could easily do, let's say a five day trip on a track from starting point A to starting point B. And then they'll have backcountry huts in there. So it's, it's a big thing in New Zealand and you just have to get tickets for them, at a department of conservation office or like a visitor center or something. Do they book out tickets? So it's interesting cause it's first come first serve. So you get a ticket to stay in a backcountry hut, but there's no guarantee that there'll be a bed for you, when you get back there.
Katie
So I figured they didn't give out tickets for the same night. Like you got, you got tickets for, you know, this weekend.
Mel
Basically you get a ticket, you get a ticket and let's say it's worth. Cause some huts have, like wood burning stoves in there or they're, they're more maintained than other ones. So then there'll be like $15 to stay in versus $5. So, you know, we bought two $15 tickets because we thought we want to be at this hut, which is more maintained as a fire, but if it's all booked or if it's all full, we can go over to this hut maybe like a mile away and it's only $5 a night, but we at least have the ticket to stay in the more expensive one. So they give out the ticket, you buy the ticket and they're good forever. So she said, you know, even if you buy backcountry hut tickets and you don't use them, you can come back if you come back to New Zealand, let's say in five years and use it. That is crazy. Yeah, but it's not for a specific hut. It's just, it's just for to stay in, in one hut.
Katie
it's like good for a night in a hut.
Mel
Right. Exactly. And that's kind of the honor system. You know, I'm sure some people don't abide by it. Um, but you get back there and we, the hut we, stayed in was really nice. It slept. It was meant to sleep 28 people at it's max. And I know like in the height of the season, sometimes there'll be 30 plus people back there. And I remember reading a blog about this lady that went to the hut that we, that we went to, cause I wanted to know a little bit more about it. And she said when she was there, you know, people were sleeping in the front porch on the floor, like, and it was crazy because when we got there, I thought, how would 28 people be in here cooking their dinners, sleeping in here, snoring. Like it was outrageous. So we got there and we actually were the only people in the hut.
Katie
Oh, that's nice. So I assume these people aren't, they're mostly not fishermen. They're mostly just like hiking.
Mel
I assume like backpacking. Okay. Yep, exactly. Cause, when we got out from that river and we saw the couple that asked how many people we were back there fishing, we said nobody else but us. And they were like, okay, good. Like, I don't care how many people are staying in the hut I just don't want anyone else to be fishing okay so the back country that was really really cool it was Halloween night actually so it was a little it was a little eerie being back there by ourselves and there was possums so they have a big possum problem in New Zealand and they're destroying the forest and kind of like I think killing off a bunch of the native birds but there was a something crawling around on our roof once it got dark out that's and I was yeah but I think it's just a possum and then we were outside looking at the stars and we didn't have our headlamps on and one ran past me I saw it but kind of just like the silhouette and I jumped so far back onto the porch so fast I was like and we're inside again all right but it was it was cool because there's really not many I don't know if you remember this from being in New Zealand but there's nothing over there really that's gonna hurt you
Katie
yes I do remember that and it's crazy because I was coming from Australia which like everything can kill you the deadliest country and then you fly over there and they're like well we have some birds and that's pretty much it
Mel
yeah yeah so that was super cool because you know being back there in those really remote places and there's like huge snow-capped mountains around and this river valley gorgeous, you know, forests and things like that. I told Jarrett one time, I feel like sometimes I forget that I'm in New Zealand and I'm like, oh gosh, do we have bear spray? And then I have to remember like, we don't have to worry about that. And it was, it was so awesome.
Katie
That is really nice. I mean, granted, I don't, I don't, I know the odds are so low of actually being attacked by an animal in the U S right, but it's still definitely on your mind, especially when you're small group by yourself and you're just like yeah I know the odds are low but there's still bears out here I still need to take care of my food and you know I don't want yep you know I don't want to come out in the early morning and have something be in camp but I don't know is there
Mel
right and especially you know you or me sometimes we like to go do solo trips and it's just kind of unnerving to be out there and just know what could be out there watching you or you know
Katie
yeah I mean it's lions or it's just, is it on your mind? Even if you know, it's a low chance, like it, I don't, I don't feel like your, your safety feature and your brain will let you forget it.
Mel
Right. Yeah, exactly. So that was really, that was really cool. But, that was kind of the, well, and then I guess I'll talk about the fishing back there on the back country hut. Um, so we, you know, it was like probably the clearest water that we fished the entire time we were back there. And it's, it's a, this river in particular is considered a backcountry fishery. So when you get your New Zealand license, which is $180 New Zealand dollars for an annual, which are, you know, it's about 60% of that for converting over to US dollars. But backcountry fisheries and you have to go on their website and endorse your license with a backcountry fishery, you know, endorsement essentially. And it doesn't cost any extra, but you just have to say like which rivers you're planning to go to, and add it onto your license. And I think it's just for them to track things and whatnot, but you can get fined for not having it, which is interesting because it's not, it's free. But, so that was, so that was a back country fishery that we had to do that with our licenses. And then, that was one of the rivers. It was like the perfect size of river. Cause you know, we like to have, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of a river that you and I both know, like rock Creek, that, that size of river that we isn't, yeah, that isn't too big. It's not too small. It's kind of that perfect size where you can easily wait across it if you need to, but you still have like quite a bit of water to work with. Um, so it was kind of, it was like that, but it was clearest water. Um, and we, I had just rolled my ankle. That was the only, that was the only injury of the trip on the way into the back country hut. nonetheless. I rolled my ankle really bad. Um, and it swelled up. I, I ended up being able to walk on it to the hut cause we were closer to the hut than back to the van. So I was like, you know what, I'm just going to make it to the hut tonight, put my ankle up, maybe ice it a little bit. Um, and then I hobbled around on it the next day. Uh, cause I was like, I'm not giving up, you know, hiking in six and a half miles to go to not fish this river. Right. So I'm like, if I can, if, if Katie can use her cam boot with a, after a foot surgery as a waiting boot, I can walk around with a rolled ankle.
Katie
Was cardboard, was cardboard me just looking down at you being like, pick yourself up.
Mel
Yes. Cause cardboard Katie was in my backpack on that.
Katie
Should we, we should do a little quick segment about cardboard Katie?
Mel
Okay. So I'll finish this and then let's talk about the fact that you got to come to New Zealand. All right. Uh, so basically that river, was one of the ones like, as, as Jay Scott was talking about, where you have to walk a lot in order to see, in order to, you know, see the fish and, and attempt to catch them without spooking them away. And I mean, we would, we, so we, we plan to nymph that river for the most part, unless we saw fish rising. Um, and we had tried a few streamers here and there, but Jarrett and I just don't, that's not our, that's not our go-to method. And we're not super confident in it quite yet.
Katie
Not the place to like test a technique.
Mel
Yeah, exactly.
Mel
So we're like, you know what? We did bring my, my streamer rod that set up with the sinking line, but we, we tried it here and there, but it wasn't our main technique. And we didn't even bring that. We didn't even bring that rod back into this river. So we were going to nymph it and we, you know, didn't have the New Zealand indicators because they were lost in the van somewhere. So we just had our usual technique or our usual rig set up and we would get to, we walked a long ways before we actually even saw our first fish. And then we would get there and by this time on the trip, Jerrett and I knew like, we don't speak when we see a fish. We, you know, pretty much put everything down way away from the river and like army crawl up to the river. Like it was the, the way that you had to get to these fish was pretty, it was a sight, it was a sight for sure. Uh, but we would, you know, think, okay, now how, how are we going to cast to this fish? This is the next question. Is there wind? Yeah. okay well this is going to be a little bit difficult and then so we probably on that trip saw we we probably only actually saw five really I mean they're all beautiful huge brown trout but we probably only saw five and we fished this river for maybe from maybe 8 a.m till 1 p.m. before deciding, you know, we do want to hike out tonight. So I think because it's not going so well, we should make sure to get out and get out with enough daylight. But that river was one of the most gorgeous, but also one of the most frustrating rivers we fished. In the fact that we just, we would even run our flies by these fish multiple times if we didn't spook them. We're like, okay, victory. We didn't spook this fish away. Now we have to figure out what it's eating and we would change up flies and everything. And I just think that, that part of the river that we fished is much more pressured than, than, walking way up. And the reason I, I say that is because we talked to that couple once we got out and it sounds like they, they, they moved over to New Zealand from Canada, I think about a year ago. And, they said, we have just started to learn the techniques of, of New Zealand fly fishing, especially site fishing. And it is a huge learning process. And, you know, we've been doing this for months and months and months now. When we were here our first month, just like you guys are, we weren't doing it right either, but they looked at our setup because we actually carried our rods set up in and out of the, on the trail. So they could see what we were using and they're like, okay, the bubble, the bubble indicator is a no-go. Like you have to have the, the, New Zealand wool indicator back here. And then he looked at my nymphs that I was using and he said, Oh my gosh, you've got a bead head on there. You can't use bead heads. You have to, they have to be beadless because that bead hitting the water will spook that fish away. And I was like, have you had already caught fish on this rig at this point or yes in other rivers yes a lot but this river in particular was just apparently really well known for having to do this certain technique with the new Zealand indicator the beadless uh flies and then so yeah and then he said oh where did you fish and we said from the hut we fished, we went maybe a couple miles towards the swing bridge. Um, and he said, Oh, you, we, you got to go way past that. And I go, well, we would have liked to, but I rolled my ankles. So I was hobbling as it was. Um, but I think the next day they were planning to go much further than, up river than we, that we ended up fishing. And he said, that's where you'll have the luck.
Katie
But you know what? I feel like when people say stuff like that, like you can only catch something on this or only that. It's like, they're almost always wrong.
Mel
True. And we had another incident where, we got called out for our indicators saying on this particular river, you'll never, you'll never catch a fish and nymphing like this. And Jerrett had already hooked into a huge fish. We didn't tell him that we were just like, Oh, okay.
Katie
I feel like everyone wants to, I've, well, this is like a giant generalization of course, but I feel like a lot of times if you river that is generally harder to fish than other rivers like people look for an excuse for why that's the case like it's not just that the fish are smart and occasionally it takes a little more effort to catch them they want to like make an excuse like you have to you have to do this and then that way you know if it's fishing poorly they're like well we just we didn't do it right that day it's like yeah you didn't but like other days it could be it could be totally different like I fished a river not too long ago that was labeled as being extremely technical and I hooked a fish on like a midge off a thingamabobber and I'm like this is not that difficult
Mel
yeah no I agree and it's it was interesting going to a different country too and fishing and then you know hearing locals talk about how they fish and and I and we would ask people certain fly fish fly fishing shops we'd go ask the locals you know do people throw streamers at these fish in this particular river and they would kind of like turn up their nose and be like yeah they do but you know that's pretty much cheating and I'm like what like we're gonna do it yeah right but yeah and on that that river that backcountry river I I even threw a dry dropper rig and I didn't have any luck. And that's like the, that's like the softest little, you know, thing that you can throw on the water and still have a fish, a subsurface fly. Right. I mean, so I think we gave it a solid effort. It just wasn't, it wasn't our day back there to, to catch fish, but it was an amazing experience. And it was really, it was, it was really educational for us and humbling because we had had a couple of really good days on the North Island prior to that. And then we came back there and that was, that was on the South Island when we got back.
Katie
So why are the fish so smart? Like, is it just because the water's so clear? Cause it doesn't sound like they're that heavily pressured.
Mel
Yeah. Because you know, it's interesting. My friend Shane was saying that pressure is such a relative term over there. Well, anywhere, but because he said they consider a pressured river to be, or I guess a pressured section of a river to be a section that's fished more than twice a week. I think that's what the guides told them over there. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, if that was the case in Idaho or Montana, like it would be very, very over pressured all the time. Yeah. Every, every single place would be over pressured. Yeah. Um, I think, I think it's the clear water. And the reason I say that is because we ended up getting lucky with the watercolor in certain rivers. And, and I'll say this because we went to a river, our very first river and it was kind of that milky blue color, really pretty really actually a pretty watercolor but a little milky and I I think it was like my the first run and one of my first casts where we had a little bit of longer leaders and I was kind of trying to figure figure it out and I was not even looking at my indicator and I kid you not that was the hardest take I've ever had on a fly with a nymph rig I that thing went under and it took off so fast and I saw the fish roll and I was like oh my gosh this is the biggest fish of my life and that fish got off because I didn't get a good hook set on it because I wasn't even I wasn't even right you try yeah but then we went down we went to a different run and you probably saw the picture but the pictures of days one and two of our first rounds that we caught that was that fish that I caught the second the second one and we were fishing it we were nymphing how we usually would blind fishing quote unquote because we couldn't see into the water as much so that you know that was a very successful day and then we went back to that same river it was the the first river we fished and the last river we fished okay and within that time span of a month it cleared up significantly and we had to, we had to sight fish and it was a little, it was more frustrating. Um, but also I did have a really, a really good day, the second to last day, but it was very much more, sneaking up sight fishing. I think I, so I just think that's why, it has that reputation for, you're going to have a good day if you go out and catch one fish or two fish. And I don't know, maybe, maybe also, the fish populations aren't as, you know, aren't as, there's not as much numbers, I guess, as in the States bigger, but maybe less numbers.
Katie
Would you basically be fishing as a pair where you like walk up somewhere and then someone fishes or were you guys fishing at the same time? It's not, it kind of sounds like you walk up, you're like, there's one fish who's going to take it versus, hey, let's just like fish together for an hour.
Mel
Right. And, it always depended on, it always depended on the river and it always depended on the water clarity. So I would, so like, let's say we were at that back country fishery. It was like, who's, who's going to cast first at this fish. And then Jarrett would sometimes, you know, if I was having a better day than him, or I had a really good day the day before, and then we would go back to, let's say the same spot. I'm not talking about the back country river anymore. I'm just talking in general. I would want him to cast in to the spot first. So we kind of alternated, for the most part, but, but if it was, if it was, you know, a little more murky water, we would both fish and we would just, or I would fish the run after him or whatever. Um, but yeah, when you're sight fishing, it's, it's very much, helpful to have somebody, spotting and somebody fishing it.
Katie
So you're both still participating at least, which makes it fun.
Mel
Yeah, exactly. And I, I get just as much joy seeing Jarrett catch a fish, as I do myself. And that's why, you know, that day, the second to last day I caught five, I think five fish and they were all really nice Browns. Um, and he didn't have any luck. Two of them were like, two of the biggest Browns in my life. And then the others were, you know, still really nice. I had one, I think one was maybe like a 12 inch where I was like, Hmm, what's this doing in New Zealand, but you're going to leave a bad review for the country. Just can't believe I caught that fish that day. Oh my gosh. Um, but yeah. And so, you know, he, he got frustrated because it wasn't like we were both not catching fish. It was that he wasn't and I was. And so, I said, you know what, let's do this tomorrow. We're going to stay out here tonight and tomorrow we're going to hit all those spots and you're going to fish them. I'm, I am just as content sitting up there, drinking my coffee, watching you. I can tell you if I see anything. Um, so yeah, it was, it was really good teamwork and I didn't ever feel like one of us was feeling left or like, you know, not having a good time essentially.
Katie
So what do you have an estimate of like how many fish you caught a day on average or how many you caught overall?
Mel
Um, Ooh, gosh. Cause you know what? We had that first day where we first and second day where we each caught our, basically one of our biggest Browns of our lives. Um, and then we went, we, cause we were so amped up. We're like, Oh my gosh, days one and two, we catch these, these huge Browns. Like, is this what, is this what New Zealand has in store for us? And it wasn't even like, we didn't work that hard quote unquote for those ones. Cause we were fishing how we would fish back home. And, so we're like, Whoa, we were so amped up on, on the fishing there, at that point. And so we kept, you know, picking out rivers on that list that my friend gave me and finding them on the map and, and going to them. Uh, but we had maybe four days of fishing, three to four days of fishing after that first and second day where we didn't catch We would see fish in some spots and try every technique at them and we wouldn't catch any. And so, you know, I can't say, you know, one day we would catch none. And then another day, one river in particular, over the span of two and a half days, we netted 30 fish and they were all very sizable and beautiful. Oh, wow. Browns and rainbows combined. I can't give you a daily, you know, like this is about what you can expect because it's so depends on the river and it really depends on the technique that you're using. Um, but I will say over the span of the whole trip, and we, we fished over half of the trip, but we did do some mountain biking over there. Um, maybe let's see if we did 30, maybe like 50, maybe a little, I don't know. that might be a very rough estimate. Okay. But, yeah. And I think you're, when you go to New Zealand, you have, you have to have the expectation, not of quantity, but of quality. Right. So I think that's one thing that helps if you have that mentality, but going back really quick to, to, you know, would Jerrett and I switch off fishing these spots? Another, another thing that factored into who would fish it is he's a left-handed caster and I'm a right-handed caster. River right or river left. Oh yeah. So it would be, where's, which side of the river are we on and where's the wind blowing and who is this going to be easier for? We had one spot in particular where it was the last day. And that was that day that I had had a great day the day before. And I really wanted him to catch one final fish. Really, really wanted him to. So I was begging him to go fish this spot. And he goes, I cannot physically really fish this spot. It's a right-handed spot because I will literally just be in the bushes. And I'm like, just roll cast, just roll cast. I need you to fish this first. And he tried, but it was like one of the windiest days there. And even when I tried it, because we saw beautiful fish, we saw like three giant browns in this pool. And I'm like, you have to go fish that. And I remember that day very, very vividly because he crossed the river. I said, well, why don't you go over to the other side of the river, cross it way down where it's shallow and come back up because it's, there's not any brush over there really. It was rocky on the other side. So he did and he hooked into a fish and it jumped. So these browns down there, they, you know how some, most of the time it's rainbows that are coming up and like jumping and putting on a show. than the browns like to hunker down these browns they did what the rainbows do it was crazy it was mostly browns the south island is mostly browns and the south island as you probably remember is also very well known for its scenery so I think that's the biggest the big destination for these for fly fishermen is the south island because you're not only getting these massive trophy browns, but you've got this gorgeous scenery around you. Um, but I found that the North Island and the places that we went was just as beautiful. Um, and the rainbows were super fun to catch. So, and the, and the North Island's more known for their rainbows. So I guess that's kind of how they divide it. But, yeah, so Jarrett hooked into this, this Brown and it was, it would have been, I think it would have been the biggest Brown of his trip. And it was, it got off. So it jumped and then it got off. And I remember I was so distraught because I wanted him to catch that last fish so badly that I, there was profanity. There was bad words being used on his end. There was tears being shed on my end.
Katie
You were crying because he didn't catch a fish.
Mel
Katie, it was a very emotional day. You know, just as well as I do, how fly fishing can like overtake our emotions in a very irrational way. Very irrational. Yeah. And so, and I think just like everything, it was like, I don't want to go back to the real world. I don't want to go back home.
Katie
Like all the emotions just coming out in that fish.
Mel
Yep, exactly. And we, that was like the biggest heartbreak fish of the trip. And we, you know, he said that that fish is going to leave a scar in my heart for, for life. Um, it's really hard to control your emotions over fishing, especially when, you know, these are some, these are different from the fish that you usually catch, you know? Um, it's hard to, it's hard to a, listen to your inner positivity and be like, Hey, you're in New Zealand and look where you get to be. And just because you didn't catch that fish, you know doesn't mean your life is over but it's hard to listen to that right and I think here's you know I was thinking about this too I'm like why am I so distraught when these fish get off what is it about you know not being able to finish what you started with this catch or hooking into this fish that gets you so riled up because, you know, inevitably you're putting, we, we catch, we caught and released all of our fish. We didn't keep any of them. So you're catching and releasing. Why do I feel so emotionally? Right. It's like you need to eat. Yeah. By this fish. And I was thinking about it. Cause especially that day, I'm like, why am I so, why is this, you know, getting to me so much? I think one of the reasons and tell me if you feel the same. One of the reasons is obviously, is it's obvious, you feel defeated, right? You feel like I didn't finish what I started. And there's a certain, I think there's a certain competitive nature kind of in all, most of us to where it's like, this is a sport for us, right? So we didn't, we didn't win. Right. So I think that's kind of an obvious one. The second one is the unknown. And I think you and I have talked about this before. It's like, whether this fish was the biggest fish of your life or whether it wasn't, I wanted to see that fish. I wanted to admire it. I wanted to hold it in my hands. Like I just, I wanted to know what it was. I mean, we knew that one was a Brown, but I wanted to, cause every fish is so different and their, their patterns are so different. And I think that for me, it's like the unknown, and not being able to see that fish and finalizing it is really hard and then I think another thing too is you know if the fish snaps off any of your flies I feel really bad about that and not because I lost flies but because that fish is swimming around with flies in its mouth
Katie
I've thought about that before too I've seen it swimming around with like it was trailing fly line that it had like the fly line had snapped clearly it had a weak point or something and it's like yeah this fish is like it's not, it doesn't look like it's going to die, but that can't be helping it, you know, to have just stuff hanging out of its mouth.
Mel
Right. Exactly. And we actually, oh my gosh, this was crazy. Um, one of my fish snapped a fly or two off, the day prior. And then Jarrett caught a fish the next day and it had my fly in its mouth. Oh, nice. I was like, what? I got it back. I got it back. And it ate. What was weird is it ate the exact same fly pattern because Jarrett had the same one on his leg. Oh, interesting. And I was like, wait, this isn't your fly. Your fly's right there. I'm like, that's mine from yesterday.
Katie
I've had that happen like maybe once or twice where I caught a fish that I knew that my flies were in its mouth. And it's really satisfying to be like, I'm cleaning up my mess.
Mel
Cleaning up my mess. I get my, you know, whatever you paid for that fly back to three bucks. And the fish is I'm helping it out.
Katie
Also, I feel like there's a little part of me that's also like, oh, good. You were still eating like you were still doing okay. And it's like, yeah, I'm taking my flies out of its mouth right then. So I know I'm still, you know, fixing the problem. But yeah, you also know that that fish wasn't like traumatized to the point of not feeding. And there's just a little bit of comfort. So when you don't, when you catch or lose your flies on a fish that you don't get back, you can kind of remember like, oh, I've caught fish that had flies in them and they were still okay. So like, you know, hopefully this one turns out like that too.
Mel
Exactly. Yeah. I agree. But I don't know. I mean, what are some things you think through when you're like, why am I so, why, why did I feel so sad that this fish got off? Were those pretty accurate?
Katie
Yeah. I don't know. I feel like for me, it's not usually with one specific fish. Like I'm so sad that that specific one got away but I get really bothered with like patterns of things right if I've missed a bunch of fish in a row yeah we were in California over the summer and I was trying to catch it it was like the first day out I was throwing dries because they they rose for like 20 minutes and during that time I was just getting so antsy that I just kept missing strike after strike and it was just like defeating me yeah so I feel like I do I get it but I get it more over like time but then it just like wears on me for hours and hours until the end I'm like really really distraught even though I shouldn't be see it's the emotion getting the best of you I've never cried over someone else losing a fish
Mel
yeah that was that was a first for sure that was a first
Katie
you never cried over my fish
Mel
I know. I'm sorry. I know. I'm sorry. I will work on it. Work on my acting skills. Okay. But yeah, that, that was a very memorable day. And I remember, I think I was super frustrated too, because I was fishing that spot that I told Jarrett to fish, but he went to the other side of the river and we knew there was big fish in there and I couldn't cast worth a darn. There was the worst that I think that was one of the windiest days that we had encountered. And I remember just everything building up and being so frustrating. And I just threw my rod down. I was, I'm, I'm lucky it didn't break, but I was pretty rough on some of my equipment over there when, when things got bad, when things got frustrating. But, it was funny too, because we, we started, taking some videos. We want to make, we want to put together just a little video like you do, for our trips. Uh, and so we would take some video clips here and there, a fish or just waiting or scenery, things like that. And, I said, Jarrett, this is what we're going to put in this video is not portraying like 90% of the time how we're feeling over here. Why don't we start making, and I feel like you would appreciate this part of the video, but why don't we start making like behind the scenes, like this is what it actually is like. And that cuts to you just like majority of the time. It just cuts to you sobbing in the short. Yeah. But emotions were too raw at some points to actually take a video. Between every fish, it's just you sobbing, like the same scene of you sobbing and then another fish. Okay. Let's not say sobbing. I said maybe a couple of tears of anguish and frustration. I would call that sobbing. That's what I would refer to as sobbing. Well, anyways, I bet you just can't wait to see that part of the video. I can't. I just, I just can't wait till the next time we go fishing. I know. I know. It'll hopefully be in, I don't know where it'll be. Montana. Montana again.
Katie
So, okay. I have a question that I should have probably gotten to at the beginning, but can you have an estimate of like how much you spent? If you don't mind sharing, like, or, or what someone can expect to spend where let's say maybe you know what you spent, but you know, most people aren't going to want to sleep in a van for a month. Like, can you give an estimate of what someone could expect to spend?
Mel
Yeah. And that's, that's actually a good question. It brings me back to something I wanted to tell you about, about sleeping in the van. Um, is that even though we paid for every night of our van, you know, cause of lump sum we paid, I think it was 2000, a little under 2000, I think us dollars for the van, but it's because we got the best insurance on it too. We knew we were going to go into rural areas and we just didn't want to have the worry of having the,
Katie
you don't want your vacation to be ruined by having to fix a vehicle and pay and pay.
Mel
Yeah, exactly. So we have the no worries mate insurance, which brought our cost up quite a bit. That's not bad for a whole month. Right. The biggest expense was gas. Traveling in New Zealand is actually a lot more expensive than we anticipated based on food and based on gas. I think too, because we were driving that van, So it's a gas hog in and of itself. But Jarrett is in charge of finances for the most part. So I can't tell you an exact number that we got because we got a travel credit card and I can't tell you an exact number of what we spent. But I want to say we were pretty frugal, but at the same time, we didn't want to miss out on a yummy dinner one night when it was raining and just miserable outside just because we wanted to stick under a certain number, right?
Katie
That's one thing if you're in the States and you're like, I just want to save as much money as possible. But if you're going the whole way over there, you want to at least experience a little bit of like what the country, like the people have to offer as well.
Mel
Yeah, exactly. And we definitely, we definitely had some good beer and some good flights of micro brew tasting and things like that. And we didn't skimp on, we didn't skimp on that. We won one of the holiday parks we went to, which they call, they call a lot of their campgrounds holiday parks. If they have a lot of amenities, like, like a communal kitchen bathrooms with showers. Um, well, anyway, this one we went to had a heated swimming pool with a swim up bar and like a movie theater project projector screen out there. So it was like, Oh, we're definitely going to splurge at this swim up bar. Like this is one of the nights we're just going to splurge. But, it was, I want to say maybe it was about five grand that we decided we should put aside besides the, that was, not our flights though.
Katie
Okay. Okay. So it's still not that bad for a month for two people to go do like a, like a bucket list trip, you know?
Mel
Right. And I could be wrong and I could be thinking of that in New Zealand dollars. Um, but I'll, I'll have to verify with Jerrett how much we actually spent. I think we did it for about five grand.
Katie
He's like, it was $23,000.
Mel
Yeah. Oh man. But, our flights were expensive, but you know, it, I thought it was just so worth it. I think we got them for 1300 a piece. That was us dollars. Um, and we flew out of, uh, San Francisco or else we would have spent a lot more flying out of Spokane. So we drove down to San Francisco to fly. Um, and we saved quite a bit on that just cause it's direct over to New Zealand from there. Uh, air New Zealand is the flight we, the, airline we took. And I think that's pretty common. I mean, I think that's one of the only really to take from the States. Okay. And they were, it was good, but yeah, it was, I guess, I don't know. It was, it was kind of a mixture of let's save on this night, in order to splurge a little bit on the next. So what we would do is, and this is really good for people to know if they want to travel over there, especially to do, van life is there's two apps that we used, to find camping spots. So they say that there's a lot of freedom camping in, New Zealand, but it's actually, it's actually getting shut down to where you can't, you can't just park your van anywhere and sleep in it anymore. Um, I just think people ruined it over time. Just like too many people doing it or Too many people being disrespectful of the environment, I think. So anyway, there's two apps. One is called CamperMate, and that one lists a few more campgrounds than Rankers. But those are the two apps we used. And they're really, really cool because, once again, you can download the region so you have offline maps of the country. And you can click, okay, I want to see all campgrounds or I want to see just free campgrounds. So there are places to freedom camp, but you have to go to where it's designated. Now you can't just pull over anywhere.
Katie
Okay.
Mel
Um, and so that's what these apps are good for. And you'll find that most people that are traveling over there are using these apps and they, it's cool. Cause they have reviews of how people liked the place. Was it quiet? Was it loud? You know, near the highway, this and that. Does it have showers? Does it have bathrooms? It'll say it's amenities. Um, so we would, we would freedom camp maybe two or three nights in a row. And then we would go somewhere that had a shower, a kitchen, and then we could, cook our own meal in the kitchen, but still sleep in the van. Those places were roughly about 30 New Zealand dollars a night. Uh, so which, so that would be what? 60% of 30, whatever that is. Anyway, you, so not bad for having all those amenities. Um, but we were still paying, I would look at it as we're paying for a night there and we're paying for a night of staying in our van. So, right. You know, it did get a little spendy here and there, but we ha I mean, we had to shower. Otherwise we were just going to river river bathe, which we never had to do. Um, but yeah, so that was, that app is really cool. Or both of those apps are great because you can not only these holiday parks or free camping spots, but you can also type in like nearest gas station or where can I find, yeah. Or like, where can I find quality wifi? And it'll show you the towns that have like a library to go to and you can use wifi. That's where I actually printed out Cardboard Katie. So if you want to get into that a little bit, we need to get into Cardboard Katie
Katie
selfishly because I want to, I want to make sure everyone knows what I got to do over there.
Mel
Yeah, of course. Everybody should know that Katie got to go over to New Zealand.
Katie
So, yeah, and this was actually your second trip to New Zealand because I took Cardboard Mel when I went. But Cardboard Mel didn't catch any fish.
Mel
I know. That's why I had to go a second time, obviously.
Katie
So why don't you go ahead and start that?
Mel
Oh, like what the situation is?
Katie
Yeah, tell people the situation. I think you did it first.
Mel
Did I start the cardboard?
Katie
Not with me, but I think you just, I saw you take cardboard people places and you had expressed an interest. So when I went, I had printed out a cardboard cut out of your face that since I was there by myself, you know, I could take pictures with so we could both be there. You didn't feel quite so lonely when you had a cardboard mouth. Right. So she was always, I don't know where she went. I mean, I can't imagine I'd just like toss her, but she's not around. So I need to make a new one.
Mel
Oh, no. So, yeah, I mean. Yeah, well, okay. You take it over. We, I don't even really know. It must have started with the Flat Stanley trend. You remember that? When, like, certain schools would have to bring, go on a trip, and you bring your little Flat Stanley around and take pictures of him in certain places. No, I don't remember that. I don't know where that started. But anyways, we thought, well, wouldn't this be funny? I don't know. my family does some quirky things sometimes and we're like, let's bring so-and-so on this trip with us and not tell them and then show them that they got to go. So, yeah, it's definitely better when you don't know that you went somewhere and, and Cardboard Katie didn't know, right? She requested that she requested, but I did, I didn't think to follow up. I know. Cause of the whole time I was like, she is going to love this. Uh, but it kind of evolved because, you know, over time, you know, cause you just have like a little, let's say four by six picture of somebody initially and just take pictures of them in this cool place. But then we're like, let's cut out a life size, life size picture of their face and, place it here and there, or like take pictures with them. And then it evolved to let's wear their face and pretend that they are the person.
Katie
Right. You were on a stick. when I took you. But I was not as sick. I was like under the hat. I was, I was wearing clothes.
Mel
You were, you were, you were in it. You were fishing, you were hiking. I caught some big fish. You did. Yeah.
Katie
I was also on the, on Jerrett's body and did not realize it.
Mel
And you didn't realize that I was on your body. I was like, can you not see the veins in his hands? My hands are not that.
Katie
I was not looking that closely. I was looking at my expression because it was from the wedding.
Mel
Yeah, you were pretty, you were pretty done up in that picture. I normally don't wear makeup when I finish, but that just had to change. You looked really beautiful and you really looked stoked. The whole time you were there, you were really stoked. Actually, you had two different faces. And so I printed you out at one of these New Zealand libraries that I found on my handy dandy camper mate app. And the first one that I printed out was you, you know, with your fly fishing hat on and your sunglasses and your little ponytail. And I thought, okay, I think this is New Zealand worthy. And then it printed out and it was the worst quality of print I've ever seen. And I'm like, geez, I better, I better just print out a backup. So I printed that one of you at the wedding and it came out a lot better. And I was like, but I want to use the fly fishing one first. So I cut that.
Katie
Have you noticed that ponytails are really hard to make work as cardboard cutouts? They're just like these awkward appendages that just stick out. They don't look
Mel
Yeah. Yeah. But I, I did not know where to cut that. You're right. Like I was like, where do I make this look the most natural. It just didn't work. But that is okay because cardboard Katie number one went into the river very quickly. And so we had to go to cardboard Katie number two, which you looked a lot more excited as cardboard Katie number two anyway.
Katie
So it was all good. I was just done up. You know, I just want to look good when I'm out. Yeah.
Mel
You look good. You feel good, right?
Katie
Right. Look good. Fish good. That's right. Well, do you want to, so I think it's probably time to wrap up fairly soon, but do you want to, do you have like a couple either last, like quick stories or tips if someone is getting ready to do a DIY trip where it's like, if, if they're overwhelmed and don't know where to start, because I remember when I went there, granted I was in the off season. So it was just like, people weren't talking about it. And I was struggling to find places that were even open. Assuming someone's going to be there at the right time of year, Just like one-off tips that would be extremely helpful.
Mel
Yeah, I think our biggest takeaway for the DIY trip there was do what you're comfortable with. Don't feel like you have to conform to anyone else's method or techniques unless you want to. Unless you want to learn it. I think it also depends on how long you're there. For us, a little over a month did not seem long enough to fully, you know, try out certain techniques and feel like we got a good grasp on them because we constantly, you know, we're converting back to our old ways that we knew the best and they were successful for the most part. So I would say, you know, do a mixture, try, try different techniques, talk to locals, see what is working best at that time. But always, you know, if you're feeling frustrated or just in general, even if you're not, try what you're best at. Whether it be dry fly fishing or streamer fishing or nymphing the way that we did for the majority of the time. So I think that's a big takeaway that we got was you can be successful with your method, even if the other person thinks it's rubbish, rubbish, rubbish, but yeah. And then I think, you know, you got to have a place to start. So what we did, honestly, if you're, if you're going over there and you want to get the most out of it, I would really, I would suggest getting a guide, for, you know, how much a guide would cost for like a for like a day on average yeah they were about seven to eight hundred dollars new Zealand dollars which would be we roughly estimated it was going to be about four or five hundred bucks depending I feel like that's comparable it's pretty comparable for like world class fishing yeah that's yep yep exactly and they don't they there's like rarely don't expect a drift boat over there because they don't do it it's just not a thing do you tip all weight they at least at the restaurants, they don't expect tips. Yeah. I don't know if that would translate to guiding as well. In the service industry, yeah, in general, I don't know. If we were to have gotten a guide, I would have probably felt like tipping a little bit just because, you know, I just want, I also want foreigners in general to be welcomed over to New Zealand. I don't want them to feel like they have to be secretive with us or just be annoyed that we're there, things like that. So I don't know. I think I just would have done it out of the feeling, out of the goodness of my heart or whatever.
Katie
You want to be a good guest.
Mel
Yeah, exactly.
Katie
Give them a good reason to welcome more people from the States.
Mel
Exactly. Yeah. Because to a certain extent, we did feel a little bit like once we said, You know, if we walked into a fly shop and we started chatting and then they said, where are you from? Even they can hear it in our accent, but we're like, oh, we're from the States. And they're like, oh, yeah.
Katie
Can they peg you as Minnesota?
Mel
Can you peg me as Minnesota still?
Katie
Minnesota? Yeah, your ooftas.
Mel
Actually, they did take me to be Canadian sometimes.
Katie
Yeah, I see that. Yeah. Minnesota is similar.
Mel
Yeah. I'm not offended.
Katie
No, that's not a bad thing to be compared to.
Mel
Yeah. But so I just feel like there's a little bit of a reputation starting to where, you know, I want us to feel like we're welcomed over there or anyone, anyone that's not from there. So anyway, but I would say, you know, going back to that, take a guide, take a guided trip and then pick their brains. Even if you're not, even if you feel pretty comfortable fly fishing, you kind of know what you're doing. You can A, get some ideas on techniques because that's never a bad thing. You can always learn something from somebody, even if you feel like you're the best fly fisherman in the world. And then, you know, I think they would be willing to give you some advice for the rest of your trip of where to go. But if not, if you didn't take a guide out, I think going into a fly shop, what I did is I ordered a physical atlas, like the National Geographic Atlas of New Zealand, and it was huge. But I brought it into a New Zealand fish and game shop on our first day there when we got our licenses. And I just, I was really respectful. I think that's the one thing when you walk into a fly shop, you're going to get, you're going to get the same respect that you give. So if you're like, we just got here and where should we go? You know, it's different that you just got to use the nice, you know, use the tone of your voice to your advantage and, and just be like, you know, we're really, we're new here. Um, we would really like to do some fly fishing while we're here. Do you have, do you have any suggestions for us? I've got this map or we're like so novice to anything over here in New Zealand. Any suggestions are like very much appreciated. So, we did that and this guy was super awesome and he, we got our Sharpie out and we circled some rivers and some areas to try. And one of his suggestions actually was the first river and the last river we went to that we were very successful on. So, I just think, yeah, you know, go into it with an open mind, be flexible in where you're going to go. I think that's the number one thing when, if you, if you do plan a trip to New Zealand, don't, don't plan it out to a T like I'm going to do this hike and hike. And yeah, you can plan if you're going to do a hike, but, don't say, okay, I'm going to book this, this lodge the next day or whatever, because you just, you really need that flexibility, to, you know, whether it be weather dependent or this took a lot longer than I thought, or this is amazing. And I want to stay here longer on this river. So I think flexibility, I think, try new techniques, but, but also, you know, go to your comfort zone every now and then. I remember one time, you know, we were, we saw fish. It was that spot that we got really frustrated in and Jarrett, lost his big brown and I shed a few tears. Um, but, that same spot, I remember telling Jarrett, I was so frustrated with the site with the site fishing thing because we just weren't having luck with it for quite a few days in a row and I thought I told them I go I am no longer going for the fish that I can see I'm going for the ones that I know are in there that I can't see and I I kid you not I said that and I cast and I hooked into a fish a fish that I didn't see I lost that one but uh such is the theme of the trip a lot more fish lost than netted but heartbreak fish heartbreak fish but but also the the trip of a lifetime and it was amazing and we would we would do it very similarly if we went back I think also we might go one month later that's another suggestion I have is going in November I feel like that would be like the perfect time to go. Number one, because all of the rivers are then open. And number two, you're not dealing with runoff quite as much. That initial spring runoff is really, yeah, it just, it kind of shut down the opportunities for some rivers. One in particularly, we hiked about three miles back. We didn't find any fishable pools. It was gushing. It was like, you can take a whitewater raft down that thing and just go, go, go. You didn't even see any smooth sections or anything really fishable at all or that I would deem fishable. So, I think a little bit later, tiny bit later in their season would be good.
Katie
All right. Sweet. Well, it sounds like you had a, like a bomb ass trip.
Mel
So did Cardboard Katie.
Katie
I know. I can't wait to go back already. I already miss it.
Mel
Yeah. I know. I know. Yeah. The trip was amazing. Um, we'll definitely have memories from that trip forever. And so pictures to go along with those memories as we grow old.
Katie
Well, thanks for coming on to, to talk about it. I'm sure there's, I'm sure I'll still be hearing bits and pieces trickling out over the next couple of months, but I can't wait to do the rest of the photos.
Mel
I could honestly go on and on Katie. Yeah. Um, I know I, I feel like I have a lot more I could say, but yeah, we'll, we'll talk again.
Katie
I'm sure. I'm sure. All right, and that'll do it. As always, if you liked what you heard, go ahead and go over to the Wild Initiative podcast. You can subscribe there and get my shows every Thursday, as well as all of Sam's other shows throughout the week. You can also find my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to weekly backcountry fly fishing articles, and you can find me on social media at fishuntamed on Instagram or under my name, Katie Burgert, on Go Wild. I will see you all same time, same place next week.
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