Ep 117: Fly Fishing for Walleye and Catfish, with Jeff Liskay
Jeff Liskay is the owner and operator of Great Lakes Flyfishing. Jeff has experience chasing many lesser-thought-of species on a fly, such as walleye, gar, and catfish. In this episode, we focus mostly on walleye, covering Jeff’s strategies for targeting them in the Great Lakes. Afterward, we also discuss how he changes his techniques to instead target channel catfish.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 117 with Jeff Liskay on fly fishing for walleye and catfish. Great, well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors. So I'd love to hear how you got your start in the world of fly fishing.
Jeff
I would have to say that the way I really got into it was through the gear industry. You know, I started out my fly fishing career not as a fly angler. I ended up, you know, working in the conventional gear industry, working at tackle shops and bait shops and working for brands and consumer shows. But eventually I think my fly fishing journey started in Michigan, trout fishing. I used to paddle the Asobo River all summer long when I was still in high school, and a couple of times from the headwaters in the flies only section all the way out to Lake Huron. So I had a passion for trout fishing then, but amazingly that passion changed dramatically when I got closer to Lake Huron and I ran into the King Salmon. And when a young man sees the size of those fish in relationship to the beautiful small brook trout and brown trout upstream, You can only imagine what went on. I totally forgot about trout and got obsessed with migratory species. So that's sort of how I got into it.
Katie
And how did you get from there to where you are today? Because now you're very much embedded in the fly fishing industry. So go from fascination with these migratory species to where you're at now.
Jeff
I think it was just, as any angler, I think it's just a challenge, right? And I do still conventionally use conventional gear. I think it's a great, you know, I call it fly rod research, right? But I think it's just a challenge. Even when I allocate to use a swung fly presentation with a two-handed rod, it's not about the catch, it's about, I'm a puzzle solver. And I think that fly fishing just gave me that platform of challenge that I don't think I'll ever master, no matter how long I do it. I think all anglers might go through that, I think, but maybe that's just the way I look at it.
Katie
Yeah, I think there's process-driven anglers and product-driven anglers. So there's people who want the fish and there's people who want to enjoy the process that gets them to the fish, and that's a nice reward at the end. But they're constantly just trying to tweak how they're doing that to learn everything there is to learn. So it sounds like you're more of a process guy.
Jeff
I'm the process guy. I could fish a week long on a river system, and I'd be OK to catch one fish. So I'm the- I wouldn't say the adventure junkie, but I do like on a river system not knowing what's around the next bend. If it's a fish, great. If it's just another great scenic eye-catching like wanderlust thing, that's pretty cool too.
Katie
Yeah, it's come up multiple times on the show, but one thing I really miss about being back east is the numerous species. Like you go out and you have no idea what you're going to catch. And that's something we don't have quite as much about here. We've got great fishing, obviously, but you have to know what you're going to catch. Or you might have one or two species present. And I do really miss that kind of variety, which I'm guessing goes well with the never knowing what's around the next bend, like never knowing what's on the end of your line.
Jeff
Yeah, right. You know, it is. That's-- you know, the Midwest- and I sort of live right on that edge of the Midwest. I guide there, like down towards the Appalachians and stuff. That's about where I stop. But like you said, you never know what you can find around the next bend of a river or in that lake system. It's pretty good. Within about eight hours of my home base here on the south shores of Lake Erie, I can pretty much indulge in any species I really want. So it's pretty cool.
Katie
And before we dive in, because we're going to dive deep on some species here, but give me an overview of your guiding service. Where do you fish? What do you fish for? things like that. Like what could someone expect if they came out fishing with you?
Jeff
Yep. So I think, you know, everybody pretty much notes that these migratory trout, I call them Great Lakes steelhead. They're not true steelhead, but that's where I sort of really have my roots embedded. I started guiding for steelhead trout in the south shores around these runoff rivers, anywhere from the Ohio, Pennsylvania area, but I've also fished for them in and around on the other Great Lakes tributaries too. And that's how I started, I really got the traction. And then over the years, I started just honing. And now I'm currently guiding on Lake St. Clair and Lake Erie on the big water, chasing all the warm water species along with the migratory species and then some river fishing for warm water species. But I've been really trying to hone my skills on the big water because it's a little more of, I wouldn't say a challenge, but I think it just offers a freshwater angler a saltwater experience. so I can work on their skills and we can work about, hey, we're in the wind, let's work on that. And I think once I get them on the water, they realize that this is a pretty hidden gem, the Great Lakes on fly fishing. 'Cause I don't see another boat doing it. Plenty of other anglers, but there's very few other anglers pursuing these fish with the fly rod. So I'm still, that's sort of my main guiding business right now is doing that.
Katie
Do you find that there's a good interest in people coming out and using fly equipment on the Great Lakes? Like, is that high demand?
Jeff
I'm trying to grow that business. I think it's one of those things that if you have to understand that it's a skill set where you're not using floating lines, you're using sinking lines. And in a course of a day, Katie, if we went fishing, you might have eight different fly rods in your hand with eight different lines. So I think the first thing I do is I usually make sure to say, "Hey, this is going to be all new to you if you're just a five and six weight floating line." So I actually think it's an educational thing too when they come on that board. But I'm getting more and more traction because usually once somebody experiences it, and they can sight fish for gar or drum or, you know, we're going to talk about walleye, but I think they get a little more intrigued, right?
Katie
Yeah. And would you recommend that if someone came out with you that they have kind of a base level skill with a fly rod? Do you think it's technical enough that somebody with their first time might want to go chase panfish or some gullible trout somewhere or something before they come in and try their eight rod setup? Or is it pretty friendly to someone who's never touched a fly rod before?
Jeff
So that's usually-- so the bad part about being a guide is that our report card is always that Instagram photo shoot, right? Catch a fish. I have a little different thought process on that. To me, the fish are secondary, but it's the experience of the day and then the education that you learn from it. And we will catch fish. So I always classify and clarify their skill set. Like, can you double haul? Have you ever fished a sinking line or a shooting line? Something like that. And then I can always put them in a calendar year spot that they're going to catch fish. I can them in a lee of an island if they can't cast into the wind. I can put them in the early season or late season where the fish are in a fairly shallow water situation under 10 feet deep so I can use floating and intermediate lines. And then during the course of the day I'll interject some really tough skill set just to let them know that if they ever say hey I want to go chase a muskie I hand them that rod and say this is what you need to expect to do. And then all of a sudden that light bulb goes off and you're like, "Ahh!" You know?
Katie
That does remind me a lot of saltwater. We did our first saltwater trip this year and we had to go into it kind of acknowledging that we probably will catch fish, we're going to be there for a while, but we can't be upset if we don't come out with as many fish as you might see if you go look at the fly fishing film tour or something like that. Like we need to treat this as a - we are paying for the knowledge and the experience and the resources that the guide has to offer. And if we catch fish, that's awesome. But you can't consider it the same way you would consider if I'm going out to my local water. If I don't catch anything, I'm kind of like, "What did I do wrong? I should know this pretty well by now." You've got to kind of tailor your expectations to the type of trip you're going on.
Jeff
Right. Yeah. The only good thing about freshwater, big water, is that it's not a target thing. So you know the boat is moving, the fish are moving, the water is moving, but in saltwater the guide is asking you to put it within this hula hoop or smaller. In my situation, yes there are times I'm going to ask you to like make a pretty decent accurate cast, but it's all about the length of the cast, right? It's sort of like saltwater. If you can, if you could place the fly out there say 45 to 65 feet consistently, it'll be a much more successful day than it would be if we struggled to get it 45 feet and under all day. So, but I'm not asking you to put it on a dime cast, which really helps.
Katie
Yeah, that was the big part for us is I'm fine with distance, but I often would overshoot the fish because I got so locked in on the, you know, hearing that you need to be able to cast far and accurately. I think I got too hung up on the far and I would often cast over the fish not seeing it. like what you're doing, it might be better suited to someone like me who can hurl it out there really far, but sometimes gets a little too caught up in that and misses the hula hoop by a little bit.
Jeff
Yes. I always tell my saltwater guy to start yelling at me now and get it out of his system because when I get out there, I don't like to be yelled at. So just yell at me now at the dock. I'm not going to hit the hula hoop. I'm either going to line the fish or do something silly. So it's like, okay. They yell at me at the dock and we go.
Katie
And you always know when you messed up anyway. It's like, don't need to rub it in. I know I messed up. Don't yell at me.
Jeff
Right, yeah, it's like, OK. That's not helping, right?
Katie
Right. Great, well, let's dive in. So we came in wanting to talk about walleye, and we are still going to cover walleyes a lot. But you mentioned that you also do catfish. So maybe we'll treat this as an episode where we talk about some species that are less targeted on a fly rod than most people would typically imagine. So let's start with walleye, because it It's kind of one of your bread and butter species. I'll let you kind of take it away and walk me through how one targets walleye on a fly rod, it sounds like, particularly in the Great Lakes area.
Jeff
Right. So we need to segregate inland lake walleyes and river walleyes from, say, Lake Erie. There's two totally different mindsets. And you wouldn't think it's different like that. So in a river system, you have a walleye that, you know, the rivers are a conveyor belt and they're usually in an ambush point and Mother Nature of the river is bringing the food to them. And they're fairly aggressive, which means that because there's, the food is not as plentiful, these fish will just jump on your fly a little more readily, even if you're catching them by bycatch. And then same with an inland lake. inland lake walleyes seem to be way more aggressive. Now on Lake Erie and then Lake St. Clair and Lake Erie is where I do 99% of my walleye fishing for that because it's my home body of water. You would think at a hundred and sixteen million walleyes swimming around Lake Erie that they would be easy to catch on a fly line and a fly rod and I found it that these walleyes have a different personality than river walleyes and inland lake walleyes. For first thing is that I've started to learn that over the years from conventional gear fishing and understanding where they're at, is I put myself in a situation where I'm going to target them and I'm going to put myself fishing for these fish that are on structure. And so these fish that are on structure, when they hold close to structure, say it might be a reef or it could be a point of an island, these walleyes are specifically on this area to feed. And so at this point in time, we've already gained that edge to our anglers. It's that, okay, they're not up there to sun tan and get a nice sunny, warm day. They're up there to feed. And then I generally will find myself, usually you try to fish the windward side of these reefs or these island points that I fish because that's the most active fish. So that's the first starting point. And then the next is what I've noticed is that everybody has this inclination that, you know, in the summertime walleyes get really deep. And that's not a true fact. As the water starts to warm up, these walleyes get extremely, extremely active. So early season, maybe I'll just walk you through my calendar year. Early season, the walleyes spawn and they stay fairly shallow. And your presentation, we can get into it later, will be a little more slower and a little more methodical. But as the summer starts to go, these fish will still be on the reefs, but they also stay off the reefs in the deep water. And when I'm saying deep water, say 30, 35 feet or so. And then eventually when they get decided to go hungry, they get closer to this structure and then they get on the fight, the bite. So an average day for me might be fishing 10 or 15 places in a day and only finding one or two areas that, that while they are active during that course of when I expect to go fishing, right? Everybody expects these fish to bite when we I send memos to the walleye and they don't bite all the time, right? So that was step one, learning the structure. But another key factor that I think fly anglers really struggle with is weeds. So generally speaking, fly anglers don't deal a lot with weeds or weed beds. Conventional gear anglers do too. And the unique thing about the evasive species that's entered the Great Lakes, the quagga mussels and the zebra mussels, it's really clear. So we've had this aquatic weed growth that has actually spawned up in these shallow water areas and these walleyes are starting to use them. So A, if I can get anywhere from say four foot to 10 foot deep fishing for walleyes or 12 foot deep max, that puts a fly angler at a better advantage than I could be if I was fishing out in say 30 foot. So now these weed beds are starting to emerge and that's starting to work into your later summer say end of June, end of July. And like any good fishing guide, we have a milk run. I would assume you have a milk run on your trout fishing, right?
Katie
Oh, what?
Jeff
When you go down a river, like a milk run. So if you're going down your river, you have a milk run where these are like where the hot spots are for trout fishing.
Katie
Oh, yeah. I've never heard it called that before.
Jeff
Yeah. And then it runs In warm, meaning that getting close to the mid-70s to high 70s, almost 80 degrees. At this point, these walleyes, they'll start to stratify out over the open water. So I've caught these fish in 55 foot of water, but only 12 foot down. So understanding about, you know, sinking lines, how I count them down and stripping through the, you know, stripping through the water column blindly. I have that pattern. So I have three patterns. One is going to be structure oriented. The next is going to be weeds. And the next is open water by bait fish that are within that vicinity. That's why those walleyes are suspended in that area. I think modern electronics have really improved my knowledge of how deep my flies are. So by using forward facing sonar where I thought my flies were, they really weren't. And it also gives the fly angler when they can see their fly moving through their presentation, they understand like, oh, if I counted the four, this is how deep I was fishing. Now they can adjust and be more successful. So I think in all that's what's been really helpful is modern electronics, understanding where our flies are and sometimes in the water column, and then also understanding like, okay, it took me six seconds to get to the bottom. The old fashioned way would be, if we were out for the first time fishing with a sinking line, which I'll get into, or we can get into, but is that you just cast your fly line out. and if it's a sinking line from an intermediate line to a sink six or whatever or a sink three you actually have to count down with your own personal method of counting and see how long it takes to hit bottom in that fishing vicinity and that gives you an idea like oh if it counts to 10 and it gets to 10 feet if I count to five I'm halfway down and that gives the angler I think you have to be a visionary as an angler when you're in this big open water rather than a river system You have to be this visionary of like, I'm just casting out into this abyss. Right? So that's the hard part too.
Katie
So are you bringing electronics every time you go out to find fish or see your fly? Or is this a, you're using the seasonality, your knowledge of the seasonality now to figure out where you're going to go and then you've used the electronics enough over time that you know what your sink rate is, how long you need to count, etc. Like, how reliant on you on any given day are you on the electronics? Or is it like you use those to kind of figure things out, and now you kind of know the system well enough that you can go out and just predict, like, OK, this time of year, they're probably going to be hanging out in this area. Let's go there.
Jeff
Right. So because of the many years I've been out there and using some older type of electronics, I pretty much know where every rock is everywhere. But the interesting thing is that as the system and the ecosystem has been changing over the years and the reefs and everything doesn't change, now I still use electronics, but GPS mapping has been a key. So I think, you ever hear of what's called a spot on a spot?
Katie
I haven't, no.
Jeff
Yeah, so a spot, even on a river system, spot on a spot means that you could be fishing a spot but within that area and it could be say maybe 50 yards by 50 yards there's only going to be a spot that's probably 25 feet by 50 feet that the fish are actually using and being active.
Katie
Okay.
Jeff
Yep so that's over the years you know learning that a spot on a spot is like okay this is a great area it's a big area but Realistically, this is every time fish have a tendency to use the best of the best of a piece of structure. And that's sort of over the years I've honed it where it's like, yeah, there's a reef here. If we fished a whole reef, it would take us all day. But within this reef system, there's two key areas. It could be 20 boulders. It could be a little drop off that's more severe. And that's the only spots that I hit on those areas. So I fish spots on the spot. It just allows me to cover more water more aggressively, if that makes sense.
Katie
Now does the spot within a spot change? Is it like these three boulders always hold fish, or is it like there are five different spots that might hold fish in this area, and we've got to hit all five, and we'll figure out which one they're at today?
Jeff
That's a good one. I think the spot on the spot always stays there. And then what I have found is that I used to think there was like a spot on the spot. But now with today's new electronics that we have, what's called 360 degree scanning, it's like underwater radar. I have actually found within that region other little nuggets that these fish use. So I'm expanding my knowledge, the underwater world knowledge. We also use underwater cameras. So but in general, what I've seen is they always use the same spots. And when and when predicts this. One of the things about open water fishing is. You always have wave action moving into where you're want to fish. And I usually say when you're scared to be out there. With waves, that's when the fish are most active, because our ecosystem is a little disturbed in the bait fish. But the next thing is that we have to cast a silly fly rod in the wind and that can be a trouble. So a lot of times we are fishing on the lee side of an island where it's easier to fish, but the fish aren't as active. So the better you can cast into the wind and have sea legs standing on a boat, you'll be more successful. But in general, I've seen that a lot of times where I can fish the windward side and not be active, but there's a thing called littoral drift, which means that these big bodies of water, when the wind blows from one direction, it stacks up water. For instance, you're fairly familiar with the Buffalo area, and you know how bad winds can get on Lake Erie, correct?
Katie
Yeah. You've seen
Jeff
it. Yeah, right? Well, if it blows on the east end of the lake and blows all the water from Lake Erie to the west end, the lake will actually raise by feet. So that's sort of like a tide, right? And then when that water rushes back, that western side, when the water rushes from the west to the east, those fish on that side will be the most active. So now you have the spot on the spot and you have moving water. That's the key to catching fish in general. Stagnant water, still water, they can get a little bit touchy. So I'm always looking for moving water.
Katie
Is that just because it kind of turns things up and gets, you know, food in the water more?
Jeff
Yeah, absolutely. I think they have a sense of the water's moving over the reef, the baitfish are more active. You'll notice that they have a more, I say it's more predictable of where they're going to set up. So maybe it's just one of those situations as an angler, you have a higher percentage because the fish are more predictable, if that makes sense.
Katie
Now, are you able to position yourself in a way that you are on the windward side of, for example, a point, but you're facing with the wind? So you're able to cast with the wind, but you're still on, you know, relative to the point you're fishing, you're still on the windward side, but you can use it to your advantage? Or are you, for some reason, always kind of casting into the wind itself?
Jeff
Yeah, that's right. So saltwater fishing, you know, the guys pull downwind if they can. So the way I have a couple ways that I can achieve this, one is with today's not only electronics we have very powerful electric trolling motors that we have on the bows of our boat. These are anywhere from 24 volt to 36 volt. Mine's 36 volt so I can hold in three-foot waves. I can actually anchor with the trolling motor and if we feel that this spot has been producing and we've had a few strikes and we got a few fish, we'll actually anchor with the trolling motor but the angler will be fishing off the back of the boat. So if you can imagine the bow of the boats into the wind and you're on the stern and traditionally I'd have to say majority of my the anglers are right-hand dominant casters which makes it sort of nice so they can cast with the wind on their left shoulder and they can cast out to the to the I can position to the targeted area. Another means and ways is we put the angler on the front of the boat and we use what's called sea anchors and what we do is we put these sea anchors off the back of the boat to like underwater parachutes and that keeps the stern of the boat into the wind and the bow of the boat downwind so I'm always putting the angler at an advantage for their casting. If there's two anglers, and that's one thing that's cool about freshwater fishing is that out of a large boat is that we can fish two fly anglers, where in saltwater you take turns. So I can position two anglers on the boat and one's always going to be what I call in the hot seat, you know, always have a little bit of wind on their shoulder and not the best angle of attack, but at least they're fishing and engaged that day.
Katie
And for the walleyes that are out, you know, once summer gets on and they're kind of out, you said suspended in the open water, is it kind of just blind casting to them? And you kind of are familiar with what depth they should be at and you're just kind of casting out and hoping that once your flag gets down to the right place that you might come across a walleye down there? Is there any other, you know, wizardry used to figure out where they are?
Jeff
So it all goes back to, you know, the electronics. So you, as you go out to the general area that, you know, you've been fishing. That's what a normal fishing guy goes back to where they caught their last fish. Right? That's the starting point, right? Makes sense. Makes sense. I caught fish here before, let's go there tomorrow. So with side scanning, you can run through the water system with your boat about 20 to 24 miles an hour. So we're scanning for bait fish and scanning for fish. Once we locate them, then we slow this whole process down and then now with this today's technology with forward facing sonar we can mark the individual fish, we can mark the fly coming through the water column, we can see a fish chasing the fly, we can get their reaction to the fly if they're even like they're not like negative or you know static fish that won't chase you know then we might have to change the fly but that's for the open water fish. I think, and for all, you know, we can look back now with the weeds and then the structure fish and then the open water fish. The main thing with walleye and using a fly rod to pursue them is always a change of speed, change of direction. That's gonna get them, 'cause they're top level predator, right? So that change of speed and change of direction work very well. So in most cases and open water, and then also reef and points and serious rock structure, you're gonna be using a very large weighted fly. So the fly is, you know, basically we can just use, you know, the clouser pattern, but with the heaviest eyes you can handle casting. And then to make it even harder, I'm gonna ask you to cast a very, very long leader. So you can only imagine how hard it is to cast because when we lengthen that weighted fly away from the fly line, you get more jigging action. And that change of speed jigging action is what really keys it. So walleyes are not like a muskie or a smallmouth where they want horizontal walk to dog. They are more of the vertical up and down. So that's the key to both of those. When their fly goes up and then when it drops really quickly, that's the only thing as a fly angler we have, is that change of speed and direction to get them to bite our fly. We don't have vibration. We don't have worms. And that's the key to, generally speaking, to get a walleye to hit, is that vertical drop.
Katie
Does that mean that you're often kind of jigging right below the boat? Or are you casting it way out there and then working it up and down but still far from you? Because I picture jigging happening pretty close to the boat just because that's how you're going to get the most kind of like vertical up and down motion. But walk me through that process.
Jeff
Right. So if we generally use a sinking line, but so this is where the long leader comes into play. So in generally speaking with, I'm using SYNC 25 cold SA shooting lines, which means that the line is only 25 foot long, it's tungsten, and then the rest of it goes along for the ride in the shooting line. But normally on a syncing line, you usually use a relatively short leader system, three to four, five feet, six feet max. Well, that's fine, but there's really no jigging mostly because that sinking tungsten shooting head doesn't sink really fast enough to get the reaction bite. So now we get that long leader. So yes, I'm casting as far as you can to cover water. And then when you pause, that longer leader allows that weighted fly to do the jigging more so than, you know, as a gear angler, like you're thinking, vertical up and down is going to even catch more fish. But as a fly angler, that's the only thing that we really have is that lengthening up our leader with the way it'd fly. Even if it's on a floating line, the longer the leader, heavier the fly, the more jigging action we get.
Katie
Gotcha. So I guess maybe I was picturing it like if you're jigging with conventional gear, you're kind of making it go up and down with the rod right below you. But it seems like you're almost casting it way out and kind of stripping it in but between each strip the weight of the fly and the hydrodynamic aspect of the leader is going to get it to go up and down really fast with each strip in as it comes back to the boat. Is that, you know, roughly the idea?
Jeff
That's perfect. You need to come with me right away. You can be my casting coach.
Katie
Perfect.
Jeff
Right? But no, so yes, exactly. In the cadence of your strip. So, you know, one thing that I'll see is that you'll have one angler that's more successful than another. And I call it the magic key for the day. The magic key for the day is how to figure out the canvas of the strip. Is it like two strips and a long pause? Is it one strip, then three strips and a long pause? So that, just like trout fishing, there's always that, like, what do they want for the day? And that's gonna be the key. Like, oh, they want like a really long pause because my fly's moving from, you know, the bottom and working up four or five feet off the bottom. Sometimes they only want like up off the bottom, maybe, you know, a foot or so. So that takes a little bit of time during the course of the day to figure out that piece of the puzzle of what is gonna be the triggering point for the day too.
Katie
But I'm sure having two anglers going at once really helps with that, you know, twice the information. Like you can have two people doing different things and then if one person figures it out, then you know, that probably speeds up the process for the other person.
Jeff
Oh yeah, it does. So I always call, as a guide, we all have our favorite flies. I call it, we probably have about six control flies. this is going to be your six go-to flies, six colors, and then the angler that's in the best situation to catch a fish on the boat, they get the controlled fly. The other angler is the crash test dummy. The crash test dummy is the angler that is going to get an experimental fly, maybe a different line to get a different presentation, and then I'm always changing them, and in In reality, the control angler is sticking with what I know until something proves me wrong. But it does open up a lot of experimental time for me during the course of the day that maybe I can crack the, like you said, maybe crack that code real faster.
Katie
Now, when the walleyes aren't suspended, you know, late summer out in the open water, when they're in the weeds or around structure, are they hugging the bottom pretty closely? they still suspended a little bit above it?
Jeff
They're going to use the weeds because these weeds now, remember, light penetration determines where the weeds are. So these weeds are going to be fairly shallow. And there's two processes of doing this. They're going to be down in the weeds. So at this point, it's, we just, this is going to be the opposite of what you talked about. There's two ways to fish weeds when you're fishing a fly rod. One is where you make shorter casts and more deliberate casts where you can make a few strips in these open areas of weeds or along the edges. And then these fish will come out and ambush them 'cause they're gonna be anywhere from the bottom to about halfway up, but because it's so shallow, they're pretty aggressive. As soon as that fly gets in there or gets near them, if they're active and they're feeding, they'll jump right on your presentation. The hard part is an angler understanding that when you could actually fish a fly through the weeds, and this is the trigger point, is when the fly sort of just glances off of the weeds, everybody has a tendency to overreact and jerk and rip it out of the weeds. In reality, is it glances off these weeds, is to pull it and work it through and massage it through the weeds and just like you would a lure, right? So now that we've talked about strip, strip, pause, pause, this is really important to do more of a nice pull, nice long strip, but have you ever heard of a fast recovery on your strip?
Katie
No, I haven't.
Jeff
So the fast recovery means that as you're pulling this line in and normally you pull and you wait a little bit and you grab the line and you pull you let this fly swim, when you make your strip, you recover back to the line as fast as possible and keep the fly moving.
Katie
Oh, because it's steady.
Jeff
Steady. I like that. Yes, steady. So now you can, like, maybe like you said, these fish are the weeds marked, some areas aren't quite as high. Now you can keep that nice and steady. And it's not about change of speed and change of direction there. just you being able to work this fly through this maze of weeds and then they just crush it. I work a lot with trying to like a weedless myrtle minnow. Everybody usually uses it. It's a great fly for anything that swims, but rather than using this heavy weighted fly, I can throw on there short casts with a heavy weighted fly so an angler can pop it through. going to be, you know, a little complaining about a lot of de-weeding, but they're going to be on the bottom like you said. The other angler, if you tie a murdich minnow on, say, a worm hook, where it's like a Texas rig, so that all the materials are protecting the hook and it's more weedless, that would be a really good way to target weeds, you know, walleyes in the weeds.
Katie
Okay. And then the two kind of final questions I have on walleye, one is, is there a world in which someone can go out without electronics and can have success. You know, if someone doesn't have a lot of money to throw at it, maybe they just barely got themselves a boat, they scraped away a boat and that's what they've got. Like, is there a world in which they can figure it out and have some success? And it just might be a little bit less or a little bit slower than someone with electronics or is that kind of a mandatory, like you would say, don't, don't bother if you can't at least get out a couple of times and learn where they're hanging out with some of the more fancy stuff.
Jeff
Yeah, no, all this stuff was done way before all this fancy stuff. So you can go online, but if you have an inland lake or something that, you know, there's, you can have at least a charts to at least let you know where the structure is, that it's on print, right? Oh, there's a point, there is an island there. So you have visual structure that you can see, so you don't need electronics. You don't even need to know how deep it is because you can use the countdown method. You can literally start out near shore, let your boat drift or your kayak or your, you know, whatever you have. It doesn't have to be a big fancy boat like mine, but the main thing is understanding the depth of the water you're trying to achieve. So you cast out, if it's a floating line, sinking line, whatever you have, count it out. If you have a way to fly, see how long it takes to hit to the bottom. Then you know how deep you are, or at least where you're gonna be in the water column. And I would have to say, if you stay near the bottom, Most of the time, you're gonna catch most of the walleyes on a structure situation. If you find weeds and strip your fly along the edge of the weed beds, which is a visual thing, you should be good to go. You don't need to have electronics, especially even near shore on some of the great lakes. There's a lot of places that you can visually see. It's like, oh, there's the shallow water. I can see the bottom. Then all of a sudden you can't see it. That's a pretty good place to fish.
Katie
Okay. And last question is, what's kind of the general gear setup? I know we talked about like sinking lines and stuff. We don't have to get super in depth, but you know, what weight rod are we talking about? And if there are some specific lines you wanted to mention or anything else that would be a good consideration for somebody planning a trip to target walleyes, what would you recommend?
Jeff
Yep. I would say seven weights are really nice all around because you can use it and everybody usually has a streamer rod of seven weight. And I use that six and seven weights most of the time but If we get in a situation where we have to fight wind I will bump it up to eight and nine weights just to make sure we can deal with mother nature, you know in our face Then as far as like when you're purchasing a sinking line The rule of thumb is is if you have a six weight You would want a sinking shooting line 200 grain if you have a 7 weight around 250 and 8 weight 300 and then a 9 weight 350 grains and this is the weight of that sinking shooting portion There's many manufacturers out there that sell these from airflow to Rio Of course with scientific angler, but we use The sink 25 cold that gets gets the job done for me really well. It's easy to cast and very durable I also use intermediate lines which sink about one to two inches per second in some shallower situations And then occasionally I use floating lines One thing we didn't cover Katie is that if somebody was going to pursue walleyes Anywhere your success will always go up under low light conditions So we talked about daytime but These walleyes that are so hard to catch during the day Just before dark and in through the dark these there they We call it you don't line them with the fly line. They can't feel the fly line coming through They can't see this big thick thing coming through so your success rate will go way up So if you want to plan your walleye trips, low light periods, early evening, early, early morning and night, you would be way more successful too.
Katie
Yeah. I've kept that. I know I said that was the last one, but I thought of some more questions based on what you said. So would you say like overnight or is evening in particular, like are they crepuscular like deer where they're out kind of like morning and evening or if you're out at midnight, are you going to have some good luck out there?
Jeff
You can. I generally say that you want to be there just, you know, in that nice twilight in summertime as the sun's going down. Be on your area that you think you're going to catch a fish. It's much easier to get your act together when it's light out than it is at dark. Sure. So, you know, get your act together. So like night mousing, right? So the same thing goes. Get in your area, you know, start fishing into the dark. And then once you learn your venue, then I would recommend that you might want to try some night fishing because they will they have a tendency to be nocturnal and they will get really shallow. So the good thing about it at night is that they get very active, they're very good, they're nocturnal, and they will roam these really shallow areas where they're not, their guard is not as up as much.
Katie
And on the topic of gear and leaders, are you using any sort of wire leader at the end to prevent snapping or is that not necessary?
Jeff
No, not really necessary. I use thick you know I'm using down to 16 pound that's the business end where I finally finished my leader system out at as around 16 pounds I haven't found the need to go much lighter I think it's just mainly too because if you get really light down to say 10 or 12 pound down towards your end of your fly you have a lot of times I get a lot of collision loops with this long leader so if I can keep it fairly thick it transfers that energy out turns that fly over a little bit but that'll be the key is just keeping a little thicker leader they're not that line shy really.
Katie
Okay and now actually my last question on walleye if you were to go inland not on Lake Erie what would you do differently if you know if you were doing either an inland lake or some of these like bigger slower rivers that might have walleye you said it's I think a little bit easier to figure out but like what what would the process be and how did it differ from Great Lakes?
Jeff
I think when you're in a river system or an inland lake I don't think you would have to use like a sink six line, right, because we're talking about a system that's way shallower. If you were in a river system walleyes won't be right in the main current, right, they're going to be on that magical invisible structure that's where the fast meets the slow at ambush points and they're fairly predictable. I think if you stuck with just a standard weighted clouser minnow that you could present the fly with, I think you'll be good to go. I think fly color selection is going to be determined on the bait fish that are within the river system or Lake Erie. So Lake Erie walleyes, it's odd, but I might have to say that purple chartreuse would be my number one, number two would be white and some type of gray, like a really natural clear water when the water is really clear. But I will say even the rivers, that the color of the lead eyes make a difference. I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's true. You experiment around with your color of the eyes. I'm really a proponent of bright orange or bright chartreuse eyes, not so much yellow or our standard smallmouth colors. So make sure you have contrast colors to your flies in the river situation. And then I'd also say that you don't have to be an inland lakes, you don't have to even buy all these fancy sinking lines. Use your floating lines but get yourself sinking leaders, one sink three, 10 foot, one sink six, 10 foot. In between weighted flies and the clouser design with these sinking leaders, you should be good to go without investing a whole pile of money.
Katie
Okay, you answered my, what was going to be my actual last question, which was, can you get, can you get away with a floating line in some of these shallower water bodies? But you just answered that. So congrats, we wrapped that up. Well, sweet. So now that we've covered walleyes, we don't need to go as in depth for catfish, because I know that wasn't the primary thing we were going to talk about. But considering I don't if I've ever talked to somebody who has really deliberately targeted catfish on a fly rod. I'm kind of going to go through the same set of questions for catfish, and I'll let you start again by just kind of giving an overview of, you know, how does one go out and target catfish on a fly?
Jeff
Great. So the first thing we have to understand is that I think that as a fly angler, we think of catfish of these bottom dwelling creatures that eat everything on the bottom. In reality, they're the top predator that live in the top water column when they're feeding. They will feed on the bottom. And then let's just talk about species specific. These are channel catfish that I'm chasing. These aren't flatheads and those giant 55 pounders. You know, I think the biggest one we got last year was around 22 pounds or so, but these are channel catfish. there's a high density population and they suspend very high in the water column in their opportunistic feeders. If there is bait fish high, they'll eat them. If there's bait fish low, they'll eat them. If there's something on the bottom of crayfish, they're gonna eat them also. Rule of thumb is that if in my geographic area around the Great Lakes, we have a lot of cottonwood trees. Is that something in your area or at all? Yep, so when the cottonwoods start blooming, the catfish are thinking about moving in the spawn and the water's starting to warm up. And this is going to be your first indication that we want to start chasing catfish.
Katie
And what time of year is that for you? I associate it with like April-ish, but I'm not sure if I'm off with your part of the country.
Jeff
First part of June, first week of June.
Katie
Oh, OK.
Jeff
Yep, so and it takes a long time. And over the years now with all these different weather changes that we're being- I still can't figure them out, but generally speaking within about a three week to four week window, the catfish are gonna be within a fly rodders situation. Like we're gonna get them, I would say anywhere from three foot to 12 foot, which makes them very easy to catch. We can use the same exact equipment, seven and eight weight rods. But the main thing is, is that they don't need to be on rock structure. These catfish can be on a muddier bottom. But I will say that they like more protected, slow waters. Like, so I'm fishing a lot of bays. So when I'm targeting catfish, it's actually easier on the angler 'cause I don't have to be out there on a windward point to catch these fish. I can get in some backwaters. I can get in back bays where these fish are moving in. And you don't need to cast far. And I think a lot of it, too, is that my most successful time is that these bays have a lot of gritty, a lot of disturbance in the water. So we don't have to worry about, are we going to spook them in the shallow water, too? So that's been a key thing, too. I will say that rattles, because I'm fish in a little bit dirtier water. I would say rattle type flies with weight work very well. They can, they can just sense in on those again. And then I'll say also too, is the catfish. They do like the up and down jigging motion but the strip is going to be a lot less aggressive if that makes sense. So we use a little bit lighter lines. So where the walleyes were using the sinking lines and we're using a little more like take it away from them. With a catfish, we try to marinate it in there. So I'm using an intermediate line with a weighted fly. So when I strip, the fly is marinating in that zone a little longer. They're very aggressive when they hit, but they're not gonna like dart out to grab the fly like a walleye or a muskie or a smallmouth. So we have to lay it on the dinner plate a little longer if that makes sense.
Katie
Yeah, and do you have to be a little bit more precise? I don't know if you could see them, but does it have to kind of come right in front of their face to get them to take it? Or will they kind of chase one down if they see it and want it?
Jeff
They will chase one down. So I would have to say that most of the time in the shallow water early season, which starts, I would say, in May and goes all the way through the end of June, they can feel it. They can chase it down. but as they move out of these shallow water areas, 'cause we can't see them, so it's blind fishing, but then as they move out into the open waters and they get out there and they start, that the catfish will suspend in the top 10 feet. So when you throw your fly out and you're counting it down, a lot of times you'll get this strike that when the fly is actually dropping into the water column. They like the fly when it's coming down, It's like you it's like almost like you drop it in their mouth and you get this big clunk. So it's like, oh, that's one.
Katie
And do you get a lot of bycatch with other species? You know, pulling your fly through this part of the water column? Or can you be pretty targeted with the catfish?
Jeff
It's yes. So during the course of the day, you know, you're going to have a multi species you're going to get in that same area, you could get a drum, a catfish, or walleye, all in in the same geographic area. With targeting just catfish, I would put myself in a geographic area that hold a higher density population of catfish if that's what we wanted to do. My normal day is like we have this targeted goal of like we wanna catch a gar and a catfish. So I'm gonna put the anglers in that situation. But if I see a situation that arises during the course of the day where I see carp or a bowfin or something else, we're going to stray. We're going to do the Grand Slam type deal, right? It's like, oh, let's just cruise over there and catch these largemouth that are busting water. But I think it's a location more than it is, like you said, like a water column thing.
Katie
OK. And I noticed you mentioned there catfish, drum, and walleye. Do you ever get smallmouths as bycatch? Or are they in a different spot or taking a different technique? Or like, why didn't you list smallmouths? That surprised me.
Jeff
Well, smallmouth is usually the number one target that we go after. And the smallmouth are great. And they are very close to where the catfish will be. And I have caught them in the same exact geographic area. But I think the fish protect themselves. And they will be in a little bit different depths of water. So the smallmouth might be a little bit deeper shallower when the catfish are there. But the drum, the walleye, and the catfish are, we'll call them in the same family of water location. The largemouth bass are going to be in the backwaters too, a little bit shallower, a little bit more structure-oriented. And the smallmouth in my geographic area are structure-oriented, but they're getting very pelagic. They're getting very roamy, chasing down bait more. So they've been a little more difficult to pin down during that time of year too.
Katie
Is part of it also the presentation? Would they take a faster presentation? I picture of Smallmouth really wanting to chase his prey down like a cheetah and a catfish might take something a little bit slower and more lethargic. Is that also kind of a way to separate one from the other or is that off base?
Jeff
Nope. That is straight on base. So we go back to the control fly and then we go back to the crash test tummy, but we also go back to vertical and horizontal. So if we're in an area that I feel that we can catch both, what I'll do is, if we're looking for a smallmouth, we're going to put on a classic horizontal kick side to side smallmouth fly, and then we're going to put on a jigging heavy weighted fly, crayfish, goby type pattern for the, say, the drum and the catfish. So within that same geographic area by choosing your fly and your fly line, we can target sort of the same species. And if we wanted to like say drift and make a little diversionary like maybe 50 yards away, we could put on a Dahlenberg diver and catch a largemouth.
Katie
For catfish, is it also kind of a nighttime, early morning, late evening pursuit? Or are you getting them middle of the day?
Jeff
You can get them in the middle of the day. Nighttime is just as well, but I have no problem going during the day for catfish during that time frame.
Katie
Really?
Jeff
Nighttime, yep. Nighttime is even better, but I don't... I think it's a population. We have such a high density population of catfish that I think it's just... There's just a lot of them to catch. One good thing about a fly angler is that we need a lot of fish in a geographic area to catch fish compared to a conventional gear angler. We're not going to surgically remove a few fish. We need a lot of them.
Katie
Yeah, because a lot of what you've said has surprised me. I don't have a lot of catfish experience, but yeah, I do think of them as a, "Okay, wait till the sun goes down. You're going to have something like stinky on a line sitting at the bottom, waiting for it to smell it and come along." And everything you're describing, it sounds like you're describing a bass or something, the catfish that I'm used to thinking of. So this has been kind of eye-opening for me.
Jeff
You would never go bass fishing again if you caught catfish with me.
Katie
Well, I might have to come try it with you because I, like I said, I have no experience with catfish on the fly, but they sound a lot more fun the way you're describing them.
Jeff
They are homewreckers.
Katie
What do you mean by that?
Jeff
That means that if you make one mistake with your fly line that's caught, like you know how you get your line behind your reel handle? They're gonna make you pay. They're gonna break you off twice. They twist and the only gross thing is, is that I already know we have a catfish 'cause as they get close to the surface, they expel their bladder and there's air bubbles, but there's slime that they're outside coating their skin. There's slime and they roll up in it and the entire, say, maybe 14 inches from your fly up gets all this little snotty goopy stuff. And it's a little gross, but everybody's like, "What's that?" I go, "Cleaned it off." You know, and you're like, "Ah!"
Katie
Which is chumming the water for the next one.
Jeff
For sure, why not?
Katie
Do you have to be careful where you grab the catfish to not get pricked?
Jeff
Yes. The two pectoral fins and the top dorsal fin, they'll prick you and you'll get a little infection, but you do have to be careful.
Katie
And is that across all catfish, that it's those specific areas, or is this just channel cats happen to have pectoral and dorsal? Are there any other catfish that have other spots on them that you've got to watch out for?
Jeff
Nope, they all have the same. Just those little spiny areas that prick you. Just like if you get a hook in your skin, you know it gets infected right away, right? It's just that fish slime, one of those deals.
Katie
It's not a clean thing going into your skin.
Jeff
Correct, again.
Katie
And so do you ever do catfish in the inland waters or is this strictly a Great Lakes thing for you?
Jeff
You know, I never guided him to the inland waters. No, no. I'm sure I could. I've caught him accidentally, but I have not.
Katie
And last question on the catfish is, do you chase the channel cats because it's what's there or is it just the one that kind of lends itself based on its size and its behavior to the fly rod? Do you have some of the other species in the area?
Jeff
I do. I think anybody that gets a larger fish that has an unmistakable like, "Oh, it really ate my fly. And it's a predator. I think that's the reason why I chased them. And I will say is that I would have to say when we talked about an angler just starting out, that would be one of the species that I would start you out on. If you had like very low skill set, you're just learning how to double haul, I could probably get you on a pretty good catfish bite over a walleye.
Katie
Oh, interesting.
Jeff
Yes, because it's a close shallow Floating line game. We don't have to use anything crazy But I could pretty confident between that and then white like a big school, but a white bass or something. That's where I would put They're targeted on as a entry-level fly angler.
Katie
What's what's your spectrum? You know if you had to say, you know, okay, it sounds like beginners you'd put that on the catfish and white bass It sounds like walleyes are a bit tougher. But the the common species that you go after What's that spectrum of easiest to most technical?
Jeff
I'd have to say that the white bass on the lower Detroit River would be a numbers game and also probably number one. I would have to say that number two would be catfish and then very close third or maybe even second, the freshwater drum would be that. And then as we start to work down the list, largemouth bass would be right in there too because it's a shallow water top water game. We always can catch, I have a lot of anglers that only fish floating lines and we usually target largemouth and then from there it gets a little more difficult. Now we got the walleyes, then we got the smallmouth bass and then bowfin are pretty easy. It's a sight game, it's a vertical just drop it in front of them and then we start getting into the top level of tough which is you know your carp and then your muskie where the muskie is just a matter grinding it out with ours. The carp is actually the tough one as you know I'm sure is that just it's a you have to be a fairly proficient accurate caster.
Katie
Yeah, they seem to be one of the more similar ones to the saltwater species. You've got to do it just right and if you don't they're gone.
Jeff
Yeah, it's you know you can't you can't make a mistake and it's usually more of a patience thing and then the freshwater gar is fairly easy to catch but a lot of times they don't show themselves during the course of the day. So that's just a- I would call that my bycatch. I have about maybe a three-week window that I can say we're going to see them. But in general, it's usually a secondary thought for the day.
Katie
How many guards would you say you catch a year? How common is it?
Jeff
Oh, I don't know. It's quite a few.
Katie
OK. It's not like single digits.
Jeff
Oh, yeah. No, no. If you wanted to pursue them, we would do that. We could do that all day. Yes.
Katie
Matt, you've really piqued my interest. I really like, you know, catching new species on the fly that I haven't caught before or just in general, and you've listed a ton that I've never even, like, thought to try fly fishing for. So maybe when we're home sometime, I'll need to come do a couple days with you and pick a new species every day to go after.
Jeff
I'm all in on that.
Katie
Cool. Well, just to wrap up, where can people find you if they want to find you online or, you know, book a trip with you and chase some of these lesser thought of species on the fly.
Jeff
That's great. Well thanks for the invite first. It was really a pleasure. And then it's really easy. You can just go to greatlakesflyfishing1word.com. I'll have my website there. You can hit me up on Instagram on @greatlakesdude or @greatlakesflyfishing. Facebook Jeff Liskay. Pretty much all over. Shoot me an email. Shoot me a text and I'm sure that you'll we'll have some fun at least going to chase some fish.
Katie
Absolutely. You got to be process driven.
Jeff
Yes. Yes.
Katie
Well, thank you again, Jeff. This was super fun. And I hope this kind of like opens people's eyes to the fact that fly fishing is not all about trout. And even when people branch out from trout, they don't tend to branch out as far as you seem like you do. So I hope people maybe give some of these lesser thought of fish a try.
Jeff
Yeah, that's great. Thanks again for the invite. And if anybody has any questions, reach out to Katie and I'm sure we can get them answered. Thanks.
Katie
Alright, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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