Ep 115: Steelhead, Bass, Pike, and Musky, with Dan Pribanic
Dan Pribanic is the owner of Chagrin River Outfitters in northeastern Ohio. They have an abundance of species nearby, including steelhead, smallmouth bass, pike, musky, and walleye. In this episode, we discuss what it’s like to open and run a fly shop, steelhead fishing in the Great Lakes tributaries, and how to target the various other species they have nearby.
Website: link
Facebook: /ChagrinRiverOutfitters
Instagram: @chagrin_river_outfitters
-
Katie
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 115 with Dan Pribanic on steelhead, bass, pike, and musky. I always start with a background on how my guests got started in fishing. So I'd love to hear how you got started in fishing and specifically in fly fishing.
Dan
Yeah, well, so how I got started in fishing. I come from a very large family, mostly boys. I have nine brothers, so there's 10 boys. Then we are blessed with one sister.
Katie
Oh my God.
Dan
Who is also a pretty good fisherman. I'm second to youngest, so I have eight older brothers, one younger brother. They're all into the outdoors, into fishing, hunting, those kind of things. And they were always, as I look back at it now, I didn't understand how nice it was and how great it was for them to always take me along, even though I was much younger at times. And probably a pain in the butt sometimes, because they were always, when you're teaching a new angler, getting tangles out and getting snags out and all those things. But they always made sure to take me with them whenever I could. So that's how I got started in the regular spin fishing. And then as their angling kind of developed over the years, they got into fly fishing, and then they just kind of took me along with them down that path as well. So mostly my older brothers, or 100% my older brothers.
Katie
What was it like growing up as a member of 10 children? Like that, or I guess 11 children, if you had a sister in? What was that like?
Dan
Oh, you know, it was wonderful. It's wonderful. You always had somebody to do something with, you know, whether it was to go hunting or go fishing or go to the movies or, you know, whatever it was, you always had people to help you when you had a little problems or difficulties or had chores and, you know, family functions, holidays were always great because we all got along great. We still all do get along great. You know, so I loved every minute of it. I couldn't be happier with having a large family. I think it's awesome.
Katie
Did it feel crowded at all?
Dan
Not when you're among friends and loved ones, right? The more the better. So yeah, never felt crowded.
Katie
Was fishing kind of a whole family thing, or did it kind of trickle down? Some older sibling got started in it and it kind of trickled down from there? Was it like the whole family, including the parents, are all like, "All 12 of us are going out fishing today."
Dan
Yeah, no, definitely not my parents. They were very busy with other things. A lot of cooking, you know, a lot of folding clothes, working, those kind of things. So it was definitely my couple of older brothers, my oldest brother, Victor, mainly my oldest brother, one of my older brother, Jeffrey, my brother, David, was very instrumental as well. So definitely, definitely more my brothers. 100%. Mom and Dad were very busy with other things.
Katie
So walk me through how you got from that to where you are today.
Dan
Sure. So, you know, it was never a, you know, before I opened the shop in 2006, even if you would ask me in 2003 had I had any interest in really opening a fly shop or had I ever thought about it, the answer probably would have been no. You know, I grew up, went through school, went to high school, went to college. I have four older brothers who are attorneys, so I looked at that, maybe joining them in the law firm that they have in Pittsburgh. So my undergraduate studies were planning for potentially going down that path. And then I was fortunate enough to be able to work for them and with them and alongside them in one of the offices for about a year while I was applying to law schools and taking the LSATs and that kind of stuff and realized that while they are very good at it and they love it and are very passionate about it, it wasn't for me. So, you know, after that I kind of, I did a little guiding in the hunting world, I did a little guiding in the fishing world, and I really wasn't sure which direction I was going to go. And I wasn't really concerned about it either, to be honest with you. I figured the right path would present itself. And it's what my girlfriend at the time, who is now my wife, Megan, she was the one who said, "Why don't you open a fly shop?" We were living in Cleveland and I was like, "Boy, a fly shop, that's something I've never really considered, right? That's interesting. We'll take a look at it." So we looked at all the things you need to look at when you're potentially going to open and start a business. Most of it made sense, not all of it, but a lot of things looked like that the potential was there for having a successful business. Our steelhead fishery was kind of in the infancy here in Cleveland at that time. It was a very good fishery, but it just wasn't as well known. You could see that the potential was definitely there and that it was going to probably get to where it is now, right, over time. There was definitely a need for a fly shop on the east side of Cleveland. There really wasn't anything being offered for a lot of anglers, especially with the fishery. We did currently have in the fishery that it was going to become. And then obviously everything else that comes with the fly shop, right, with the classes and the destination travel and those kind of things. So, you know, it was more her idea than mine, so I always blame her. You know, like, "Hey, this was your idea." But that's kind of how it came about.
Katie
Tell me more about the logistics of opening a fly shop. You know, what goes into, you know, you start, I feel like the minimum is, you know, you sell flies. And then naturally, you probably guide trips, you start classes, you start all these things. What's that progression
Dan
Yeah, so I think, you know, it's changed a lot. I'll tell you that. It's definitely changed a lot. And it was obviously changing when I first opened, right, with the online world and everything else. So, you know, but right now, back then, what you had, it's multifaceted. You can't just open the doors, have a fly shop and expect people to come in and support you. You know, you have to offer several different things to your customers. Obviously, one of them being a good selection in your store, right, of rods, reels, flies, leaders, tippet, et cetera. You also have to have some expertise, right? You have to know your stuff. You have to be not just a good angler and a good fisherman, but you have to be able to be a good teacher and be able to share that knowledge with your customer base and be passionate about it and have them kind of- when you go into a good fly shop and you see the guys or the girls you're used to seeing, if they're upbeat and they're passionate and they're excited about it, you have to have that as well. But you have to have all the little things, too. You have to offer casting classes. You have to offer fly tying classes. You have to do all the things to get the community involved in wanting to and coming to a local fly shop. Because it is very easy to just get most of the things otherwise just with the click of a button on a computer. So you have to give folks a reason to. I think that's the biggest thing these days, is you have to give folks a reason to want to come into the fly shop.
Katie
Is that, like, are you trying to develop kind of a community? Like when people come in, you know, what are you hoping that they see when they come in or experience when they come in that makes them say, like, "Oh, I want to be in this shop. I want to be here physically." Like, you know, obviously it might be just getting fishing tips for the local area, but I feel like a lot of fly shops now are kind of trying to kind of cultivate more of a culture, like a hangout culture almost in the fly shop.
Dan
Yeah, for sure. I think that's important. So I think what a fly shop can offer that a lot of people miss out on these days, now obviously not everybody has a local fly shop, right? So that can be tricky. You know, and if they do, it's far away. But I think more than anything, what a local fly shop can offer the community is, depending on who's in there and who's running it and who's employed, obviously, is just really help introduce newer anglers to the sport, really shorten the learning curve, really help take a lot of the questions out of it much sooner and much quicker, and help clarify things for them. And then obviously, as you're doing those things, you develop relationships, right? It's also very important, the relationships you develop and why you're developing those relationships. So when they do come into the shop, and they like cheers, I don't know if you're old enough to remember the sitcom cheers, but when you walk in and you know who's going to be behind the counter and you know who might be tying flies and you've had discussions and experiences with them before and they've all been positive, you just want to continue that and continue to develop it and build those. It's not really customers at that point. of the folks that come in the shop these days I definitely would just consider friends that we've made over the years for sure that just happen to also come in and buy things at the shop we're at.
Katie
What do you find to be the most challenging thing about running a fly shop and guide service, you know, any of it? What's the hardest part?
Dan
Business-wise the hardest part's battling the online consumerism, you know, which I get and I understand. But I think the worst thing a lot of anglers can do, especially new anglers, is go online and buy a bunch of gear and then come in and ask me how to use it and what to do with it. Because not that I mind, but usually they buy all the wrong stuff. You know what I mean? I don't want to be the one to tell them, "This is okay, but you really should have got A, B, and C instead of X, Y, and Z." So that's difficult because you do lose a lot of sales to online stuff. But I also understand the convenience of it. We don't do anything online. I don't know that we will, maybe someday. And then the other thing is just, there's a lot of moving parts when it's keeping inventory, especially when we've had a lot of supply chain issues, which are getting better, but they definitely affected the fly fishing industry as well. a matter of guys coming in like, "Hey, you're a little low on hooks," or "Where's this?" or "Where's that?" It's like, "Hey, we order it and order it," and they just don't have it. But those problems have been addressed for the most part, and they're not as bad as they were. Other things, like I said, you have inventory issues, you have employees, you have guides, you have guides that are running a few hundred trips a year, and then rescheduling clients when things get blown out. I wouldn't say anything, obviously you got payroll and then you have, you know, just, it's just a lot of moving parts. Nothing is overly difficult about running the business, but it's just, there's a lot of things that you have to keep your finger on, you know, 24 hours a day.
Katie
I'm curious now, is there a common thread among the people who come in with the wrong gear? Like, do they go online and, you know, the internet tells them that they need a 9 foot 5 weight because they assume they're only fishing for trout, and then, you know, they come in wanting to target steelhead? Is there a common thing that they get wrong when they come in with their equipment that they bought online?
Dan
I think that's a big part of it. If you go and you look for, "Hey, what's the most common length and weight of the fly rod?" You're going to find 9 foot 5 weight. "Oh, I bought this 9 foot 5 weight to go steelhead fishing." Cool. You're going to be a little undergone there, but it's not going to work so great. I think that's a lot of it. I think a lot of it too is if you're online, if Katie's online looking to buy something from Dan, and I don't know you, and I really don't care what I sell you, because I'm never going to see you again, and the next Katie's going to come along in 10 minutes and buy something else. So I really think that it's kind of that buyer-beware type thing. You know what I mean? I think a lot of people who are selling things online, maybe not intentionally, and And I think that a lot of it is unintentional. I think a lot of people selling things online don't know. You know, they have an online store that's a warehouse and, you know, their main thing is volume, right? I want to sell the most stuff I can to the most people I can without really being passionate about developing the sport of fly fishing and sharing your passion and knowledge and love for the sport with people, which is more what we try and do.
Katie
Well, I mean, if you're online, a lot of times you're not even going to talk to a person. know if you go on and I can find a nine foot five way without ever talking to a person I can go on and sort my cheapest first and now I've got my first fly rod and the internet told me that it's gonna be the most versatile rod for North America and then you know no one was even given the opportunity to steer me astray because I came in and I added it to my cart and I checked out and that was that so yeah I think there's just a little bit lost there if somebody doesn't know what they're doing that they they could easily pass through you know three different sections of red flags without ever being told hey you should stop here and think about this before you click buy.
Dan
That's definitely a lot of it for sure. For sure.
Katie
Moving on a little bit to the fish themselves, we're going to hit a couple different species here, I think mostly steelhead, but what species are primarily being targeted in your area?
Dan
So definitely number one, and the reason we opened Chagrin River Outfitters is for the steelhead fishing. Great Lake, you know, Lake Run Rainbows, whatever you want to call them.
Katie
Yeah, I don't care about that argument.
Dan
Yeah, no, I don't either. I just know they're fun to catch and I'm glad we have them. So that's number one. We're lucky, our steelhead fishery, we have a lot of rivers to fish, we have good numbers of fish, we have a lot of public access. It's a nice long season. Most years we start fishing around mid-October and our fishing goes right through mid-October all the way through into the end of April, early May. some years, January and February, get a little cold and the rivers ice up and we take a little break. But a lot of years, the rivers stay open and we're fishing straight on through. So we're lucky because we have a nice long season. We're talking about, I mean, I don't know how many months that is, but six, seven months of pretty solid fishing. So that's definitely number one, at least as far as most of the anglers where their attention is focused. We also have very good smallmouth fishing. We have two different types of smallmouth fishing in our area. Obviously, they're both smallmouth, but one fishery we have for the smallmouth is right around the time the steelhead fishing starts to kind of wind down, we get big smallmouth that come in from Lake Erie to spawn, just like the steelhead do. It's not a numbers game most of the time. You can legit catch a six, seven, eight pound smallmouth out of one of our tributaries in May and June. Obviously, not all of them are that big, but it's a pretty cool fishery that not many people take advantage of. Obviously, smallmouth have gotten much more popular in the last few years. The chance for an angler who doesn't have a boat, who doesn't have access to big small mouth most of the year to be able to come up here and catch a 20, 21, 22 inch, five, six pound small mouth. It's pretty cool because those fish are hard to come by. We have a good opportunity for them here. And that kind of-- that'll last from, let's say, late April through May into mid June. And when it peaks really just depends on the year because it is a migratory fishery. you know it it's a little different every anytime you're talking about migratory fish things can change from year to year and typically do. And then we also have some rivers not necessarily tributary rivers but a lot of other rivers in the state here that have very good. Populations of residents small mouth they're not the biggest small mouth around you know what eighteen incher would be a pretty darn nice one. But sixteen sixteen inch range that they could keep you pretty busy throughout the course of the day you know it's in in there's good numbers of them if you're willing to look for him and search it out a little bit so we do quite a bit of guiding for for that as well a couple of our guides. Over the last couple of years specifically you know Mike and Anthony have been getting that small mouth. for us. And they're building that pretty darn good. We're getting more and more anglers each year to take advantage of the smallmouth fishery. And right along with that, a lot of those same rivers also have very good pike populations. We can obviously do pike-specific guided trips, and we do. A lot of times we kind of do mixed bag trips. You catch a nice bunch of smallmouth, and you catch a few nice pike along the way. And I don't think it's something that a lot of people think about when they think about Northeast Ohio, but it is something that we definitely have and is definitely gaining popularity with our client base as we introduce more and more of them to those fisheries. They're pretty excited about it. It gives them something to do over the summer. A lot of guys, you know, it's weird being in a fly shop and you're busy, your slow time's the summer, right? You're like, all right, what am I? All right, steelhead season's over. it's in April. What are we going to do with all the fishermen now, right? And a lot of them put their rods away at the end of April and early May. So we're trying to find ways to get guys to say, "Hey, you know, steelhead season's great," and it is, "but let's look at the smallmouth fishery. Let's look at the pike fishery." You know, we do a lot of trout stuff over in PA. And the other thing we do that, you know, and a lot of people are going everybody be like, Oh, shh, don't say it. But you know, we have a pretty cool muskie fishery here in Ohio as well. And, you know, they're, they're, you know, the same, same couple of guys, Mike and Anthony and Cole are getting that muskie fishing going pretty good. And they're building up a pretty good clientele along those lines as well. And, you know, you know, cause, and I don't know much, to be honest with you, muskie fishing is not my thing. It's nothing that I know a ton about, but they certainly do. And a couple times a year they take me out and, you know what, we always catch muskies. And I'm like, "I thought this was supposed to be tricky." And they're like, "Well, it is until you figure it out." And we're lucky that we have a lot of fish here too. So that's getting going. So we have that also. And then, you know, that's probably, you know, mostly what we do as far as the stuff right outside from the shop, within an hour, hour and a half from the shop doors. So it's pretty good, really. I think a lot of people- I don't think, I know a lot of people, when they come to steelhead fish, or they come to bass fish, or they come to musky fish, they're like, wow, I didn't know you guys had this quality of fish in here. So that's kind of cool to hear.
Katie
Yeah, I want to touch on each of these a little bit and just kind of get an overview of each one. Let's start with steelhead. First question I had is around the fact that you said it goes from mid-October to springtime. Is that a legal designation or is that just you can start fishing for them when they come in and then they stop coming in and it kind of fades away?
Dan
Yeah, so that's just kind of when they're in the rivers. They fish for them year-round. They catch them in Lake Erie in the summertime, but that's kind of if you had the ballpark say, "Hey, my name's Katie. I want to come to Ohio and steelhead fish. When do you guys start and when do you finish? I would say we start around mid-October and we finish around mid-late April.
Katie
Is it peak at a certain time? Is it like you can come mid-October but it might be kind of slow, but if you come in late November then it's going to be really hot? Does it pick up as it goes?
Dan
It does. I don't know if you have much experience with migratory fish, but you can generalize and you can ballpark things, but every year is a little different because they're migratory. A lot depends on rainfall and water temperatures and those kinds of things. For instance, this year we haven't had a lot of rain. Obviously, we're very dependent on rainfall in our rivers to bring the water levels up and allow the fish to come in. The rain's been very localized this year. A couple of the rivers have gotten good amounts of rain and the rest of them haven't. While those rivers are fishing very good, if you came up and fished some of the other rivers the first part of October and early November, you'd be disappointed. If you fish the rivers that had some rain and allowed the fish to come in, fishing would be very good. So it depends from year to year, and it changes from year to year. But overall, everything else being equal, I think most people that have been steelheading for a long time would probably say, "Yeah, October can be good, but November and December are pretty solid. If you're coming in from out of town, I would say late November, December is a safe bet to know there will be fish in the system. If we get a little precipitation, it'll probably be snow instead of rain, so the rivers won't blow out on you. Looking into the springtime, late February, March, and the first 10 days or so of April is pretty hard to beat, most years.
Katie
You mentioned that sometimes in the middle of winter, the rivers will freeze up and stop you. But if they're not frozen over, is the bite pretty good all winter long, regardless of weather or will something turn them off? If you get a big blizzard or something, will they turn off for a little bit or go right through it like nothing happened?
Dan
Yeah, no. Fish really don't have a calendar, right? And so they respond more to the conditions and water temperatures and things like that. If February's kind of warm and we get some more rain than snow and the water comes up, the fish move in. They come up and they seek out the spawning areas and they get pre-spawned and they're holding in the holes and the runs. The fishing can be as good, if not better, than it is other times of the year. But the hard thing is it's hard to anticipate and guess when that's going to happen for folks coming in from out of town. If you're local, you can kind of have your finger on the pulse of it a little bit, but it's hard to guesstimate from year to year what's going to happen.
Katie
Tell me about the crowds, because I hear a lot about the shoulder-to-shoulder fishing for your steelhead in those tributaries. How does one go about finding a spot to fish where they're not going to be touching six other people at the same time?
Dan
Sure. Ohio was a pretty well-kept secret for a lot of years. We had pretty darn good fishing and not a lot of anglers. And then rewind to 2019 and COVID and everybody was looking for something to do outside, the fly fishing in the area really took off. So there's a lot more local anglers on the water now as well. We're also getting a lot of people from out of state coming in. So while it's definitely a little... more crowded than it used to be. It's not, I have never seen and I hope I never do see the type of experiences you're talking about. And this coming from a guy that owns a fly shop, right? The more anglers, the better. I don't think that's the case. I like a little bit of space and elbow room myself. So while it can get crowded in areas, in certain areas at certain times. Overall, we're pretty lucky. We have a lot of river miles to fish. You can definitely get away from people if you want to.
Katie
Is it just a matter of walking a little farther from the car?
Dan
A lot of times.
Katie
Or is it like you get finding a secret tributary that no one else knows about?
Dan
Yeah, I don't think there's any secrets as far as rivers and tributaries go. But yeah, it's just about just staying ahead of the curb a little bit.
Katie
And how about techniques? What kinds of flies throwing for them and how are you presenting those flies?
Dan
Yeah, so I think most people, the most effective way to fish is just an indicator nymph rig. I don't know if you've ever fished for steelhead and it doesn't matter if it's on the West Coast or in the Great Lakes, they are not the fussiest fish to catch, especially when they're in a good mood. I mean, they eat pink pieces of fuzz and green pieces of fuzz and yellow pieces of fuzz, right? Or big streamers or whatever. Now that's when they're in a good mood, so don't get me wrong. I think the biggest indicator of nymph fishing, usually with some type of egg pattern, at least in our area underneath that, if the water gets low and clear, nymphs can come into play very much so. But most of the time, these fish are swimming around Lake Erie for two, three years before they come into the river, so they're very keyed in on and know what bait fish are. They eat a lot of smelt, shad, elwives, that kind of stuff. some type of egg pattern because rainbows just eat eggs, that's what they do. And then underneath that some kind of woolly bug or zonker, a sparkle minnow type thing, just something that looks like a bait fish. And then obviously the two-handed fishing has gotten much more popular in the last 10-12 years here in the Great Lakes, especially when it comes to, you know, kind of borrow that from the West Coast guys. You know, we use a little shorter rods here for the most part because our rivers are a little smaller, but, you know, kind of the same concept with the switch rods, skagit heads and the sink tip and, you know, swing and streamers and string leeches and things like that when the water's up and a little off color has become very popular and is a great way to target these fish as well. indicator nymph fishing number one and then you know swinging streamers number two for sure is
Katie
When you say number two, do you mean number two in terms of effectiveness or popularity or something else? Cuz I when I hear about swinging streamers for steelhead I picture it being a technique that people often use not because it's particularly effective But because it's just a really really fun way to hook a steelhead when you do And you hear about people on the west coast at least that go, you know They might go out ten times and finally hook one on the swing but that's what they were waiting for, is that one moment. Is it similar there, or does it seem to be actually a pretty effective way to get fish?
Dan
No, it definitely... It's still probably number two in effectiveness, but some days it's not far behind. The fish we have here are pretty grabby. We're lucky and if... Yeah, no, it works pretty well.
Katie
Okay. How wide rivers are we talking about? On average?
Dan
It depends. Yeah, sure. So, not super wide. I mean, anywhere from, if I had to ballpark it, let me think here. Anywhere from, at the narrowest, the smallest tributaries and streams, 50, 60 feet. And then I'd say the medium-sized rivers are, let me think here, probably 160, 170 feet bank to bank and then a couple of the bigger rivers like the Cuyahoga and the Grand a few hundred feet. So it just depends it varies. We're lucky in that we have a lot of we have a lot of options in both river length and river size.
Katie
How much does sight fishing come into play? Are you often spotting the fish you're going for before you cast or is it a lot of blind casting?
Dan
Well you'll You'll hear a lot of people talk about, unfortunately, talk about sight fishing for steelhead in the Great Lakes. And the reason I say unfortunately, because usually what they're referring to is targeting spawning fish, which is something we try to discourage and definitely do not do. When the water gets a little low and clear, can you see fish sometimes moving around? You can. You got to remember, you know, steelhead, they want to be in very specific places in the river. They're not there to feed. They're not there to be exposed. They're not like a resident trout where they might be in a little side channel or a back eddy. They're going to try and be in the deepest, darkest spot they can find. So sight fishing for them, while possible, usually you're not going to see them. The other reason being our rivers, they run a little dirty. For us, if I have two feet visibility that's about ideal that's exactly what I'm looking for so yeah.
Katie
Is there much pushback on the people who are sight fishing for spawning fish or is it if it is it so prevalent that it's almost like a mainstream culture?
Dan
It's pretty prevalent you know I think a lot of people that's you know what they think of when they think of steelhead fishing unfortunately you know they which is a shame because you know and again a lot of people will come in the shop like, "Hey, I walked two miles of the river and I didn't see any fish. When are they coming in?" And this is like March, right? And we've already been catching fish for five months. But they think the fish aren't in the river until they can see them spawning, which is unfortunate because they're missing out on a lot of good fishing. As far as pushback goes, there's not a lot, to be honest, because our fishery is mostly from stocked fish. They stock them as smolts, as fingerlings, you know, six, seven inches long. Then they swim out to lake area, and then they come back a few years later. So while those spawning fish do spawn, while they do reproduce, the eggs hatch, unfortunately our rivers, for the most part, just get too darn warm for those fish to survive. They just kind of get baked. Our river temps go up to 85 degrees in the summer, right? Not very conducive to steelhead. The point being, while personally I'm not a big fan and I don't think you should target fish on beds, luckily our fishery doesn't depend on the reproduction of those. Not luckily, I mean it'd be great if it did, right? But it doesn't affect the numbers of fish in the rivers the next season, that kind of thing, if that makes sense.
Katie
Yeah. Do you ever hear the argument that because they get stocked that it's not a problem? Is that a common thing that people kind of use to defend fishing on beds?
Dan
You know, unfortunately it is, and even more so, you know, take it one step further, you see people, you know, who are like, well, you know, when they post pictures or videos on Instagram, you know, they drag fish up on the rocks and they're, you know, in the mud and the silt and they kick them back in the water and like, "Oh, it's just a stocked fish, right?" Yeah, but it's still a living creature and it still took a lot of effort to get that fish from an egg to a nine pound steelhead that's in the river. So unfortunately, yeah, that is a defense that a lot of people use to give them an excuse or a reason to mistreat or misuse the resource. Unfortunately, it's not most people, but it is some people.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, even if it doesn't affect the population, you've got to acknowledge that a living, breathing creature that doesn't want to get kicked in the mud any more than any other steelhead just because it got stalked. That steelhead doesn't know that it's not a wild fish.
Dan
Yeah, well, like, what did I do to you, man? Yeah. No, I agree, I agree, but you can't talk reason to some folks, unfortunately.
Katie
You mentioned that the sight fishing often happens when you're... for those people that are fishing the spawning fish, is it because they get far enough up into the river system that they become visible in the smaller water? Is that what makes them more sight fishable than other steelhead that are not spawning?
Dan
So I think it's a combination of a few factors. So one, the longer, especially the males, the longer they're in the river, the darker they get, right?
Katie
Oh, okay.
Dan
So they'll stand out a little more. You'll see these big dark shadows where the hens that are still nice and chrome and bright just kind of blend in a little bit better. And then the other thing is, like I said, our rivers are very dependent on rainfall and they can get very low and clear without it. So if we haven't had a lot of rain and the rivers drop and get low and clear and you got literally 60 steelhead in a pool the size of three bathtubs, they're going to stand out a little bit.
Katie
Yeah. Moving on to the smallmouth bass, I want to hear more about the migratory ones, the ones that come in, you said, kind of at the tail end of the steelhead season? Is that roughly their timeline?
Dan
Yeah.
Katie
So do they ever overlap? Like, do you ever go on a trip that's like, "We're going to throw some flies for steelhead and then switch over and cast for smallmouths?" Or are they kind of separate in where they live or what they're eating or what's, you know? Just tell me more about them.
Dan
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like a lot of migratory species, the answer is both yes and no. So there are definitely times from- again, it's a water temperature thing when the smallmouths start coming in. There are definitely times when you can target both smallmouth and steelhead. And you'll catch them in the same runs, right? You'll catch a couple of steelhead, and then you'll hook something, and you'll feel like, oh, man, this fish feels a little different. It's good size, but it's just- and then all of a sudden, you'll see a big smallmouth come jumping out of the water or try to. but they do occupy, for the most part, a little different places in the river. While the water's warming up, you'll find the steelhead in the faster, more oxygenated water with more current, because the water's starting to warm up a little bit for them. In the smallmouth, they're just coming in. The water's just starting to get to a temperature they like, so they're still going to be in a little slower, deeper, bouldery, that kind of stuff. They do overlap at times for sure. And you can catch them. The best thing in the spring, really the best way to target both of them is just swinging streamers in the tail outs and then the runs and stuff like that. And the small mouth will be on either the outside, slower water or the inside, slower water and the steelhead will be more tucked in into the faster, more water where there's a little more current. But yeah, you definitely can target both of them and have a fun day. It's kind of one of my favorite times a year to fish because you can target both smallmouth and steelhead. And it's also a great time. A lot of people, if you went to any one of our rivers on April 10th, you'd be like, wow, there's a lot of people fishing. It's pretty popular. If you went to that same river probably on April 20th, you would see probably zero anglers, and there's still the same amount of steelhead in the rivers, and there's also a bunch of steelhead. So it's a pretty fun time of year for the, you know, a lot of people, you know, they've been steelheading since mid-October, and now it's time to get the bass boats out, or the walleye boats out, or the golf clubs out, and, you know, they kind of give up on the steelhead and the river fishing, and they go on to other things, where, you know, if you want to continue steelhead fishing and get into the smallmouth fishing, it's a great time of year to do it, because it's like somebody flipped a light switch. It's like one day there's a bunch of people fishing and then it's like, heck, where did everybody go? They're still fishing probably, but they're just doing different kinds of fishing.
Katie
Yeah. So it's not even a matter of just that you can target them at the same time. Like you might catch both fish on the same rig, same technique. Like you're going to cast a streamer out and you may catch a steelhead or a smallmouth and not even know until it's on the end of your line that you've got one or the other.
Dan
Yeah, 100%. 100%. head spawning in the spring obviously we get a lot of white suckers the coming from Lake Erie that that that spot in the spring so we're fishing a lot of egg patterns and anything that comes into the river. You know you got all these eggs in the river and you know it's it's a nice easy food source right it doesn't swim away it doesn't fight back so. We'll be fishing a lot of beads and stuff like that and you know you'll catch a big small mouth on a be just like you will a steelhead.
Katie
Pretty cool yeah. And how big did you say the know roughly?
Dan
I'd say the biggest one we got last year was about seven and a half pounds.
Katie
Wow.
Dan
Yeah it's a big fish and we catch them like that every year and other anglers catch them like that every year. The biggest one I've heard of was almost nine. It was huge and then but you know obviously a lot of them are that two to three pound range but there there are definitely some giants that come in.
Katie
Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like then you know the same rod would be great for both these smallmouths and steelhead. Like I'm picturing like an an eight-ish weight, is that roughly correct? I'm not a steelhead expert, so I could be wrong, but I'm picturing like an eight-ish weight.
Dan
Sure, no, so I think most folks around here, some people use an eight, some people will use a six, but kind of for our rivers and our fishery, about a 10 foot seven weight is just about ideal.
Katie
Yeah, yeah. And that sounds like it would work great for both the steelhead and the smallmouth, so you wouldn't be under or overgunned with that six to eight for both of those species.
Dan
For sure, for sure. I wish that wasn't the case, so I could sell everybody a smallmouth rod. But yeah, no, the 7-weight works pretty good.
Katie
And how about the pike? Are they at all overlapping with either of these? I don't feel like this time of year, that doesn't sound right to me. I don't really know what the pike are doing in your river systems. But do they ever overlap? Or if not, when are you going after the pike and where?
Dan
Yeah, so the time frame can overlap, but it's totally different rivers. So you won't find, yeah, we don't, that'd be pretty cool, huh? Pike, smallmouth, and steelhead. But the pike, the pike rivers, the resident pike and the resident smallmouth rivers are different than the tributaries that we fish for the migratory steelhead and bass, yep.
Katie
And so they are living with the resident smallmouths and they're just, these aren't even tributaries of Lake Erie, these are just completely separate rivers.
Dan
Not of Lake Erie, correct.
Katie
And how about, just tell me about the pike fishery then, maybe you can tie in the resident smallmouth fishery. What are you using for them? When are you going out after them? Just the whole shebang.
Dan
Yeah, so we like to target the pike, you know, March, April is kind of prime time. May and early June, and May and June are very good also. The water temps start to get a little warm in July. Obviously you can catch them, but you know, they get a little, you know, it's just the water temps are a little warm for fighting pike, you build up some lactic acid and those kinds of things. We try and focus more on the small mouth in the summer. The pike fishery, March, April, May, June, we tend to back off of those come July, August, the first part of September. Then when the water temps start cooling down a little bit in the fall, they obviously start getting hungrier and more aggressive as well. That's kind of our pike window or window, so to speak. The flies are... Not that we catch giant pike, because we really don't. A good pike around here is 33, 34, 35 inches. But you still want to throw, and need to throw a little bigger fly a lot of times to get their attention. So a nine weight is a pretty solid pike outfit for our area. Nine weight with a sink tip line kind of thing, so we can throw some of those bigger flies.
Katie
And would you, the same way that I asked about the steelhead kind of overlapping, like could you catch them on the same rig, would you be able to catch small pike and smallmouth on the same, roughly the same outfit, or would you kind of switch things up and go from one to the other?
Dan
Yeah, for sure. So, and even to get into it a little more, a lot of the rivers that we musky fish for, or musky fish in, also have smallmouth. And you catch some really big smallmouth on pike and musky flies. We also catch some really big walleye on pike and musky flies in the river, which is pretty cool. So, yeah, you can definitely catch multiple species on the same fly and in the same day, for sure. Sometimes intentionally and sometimes not so much.
Katie
Well, you just caught my attention with walleye because I don't hear about it very frequently in the fly fishing world, but I grew up on a walleye river. It had a ton of walleye in it. So I grew up catching walleye while I was smallmouth fishing. So I want to hear more about the walleye fishery. I might spend the rest of the episode hearing about that because it's not a species I hear about very frequently on the fly.
Dan
Sure. Well, I wouldn't say we have a walleye fishery.
Katie
Okay. Okay.
Dan
Well, that's not true. We do in Lake Erie, but on the river and on the fly. Now, that's not true. We do have a couple guys on Lake Erie who target walleye pretty successfully on the fly, especially spring and fall. Now, the rivers we fish, it's more of an incidental catch, because walleyes do seem to be, and again, I'm getting a little bit outside of what I know, but this is kind of more what I hear from people who do know, is that, you know, a walleye can be a little tricky on the fly, and you have to do certain things a certain way to be successful in targeting them. And when our guys catch them, it's usually, again, they're targeting muskie, they're targeting pike with very large flies and they just happen to catch a big walleye. Usually it's in the fall or sometimes it's in the spring. Usually it's in the fall when those fish are getting hungry and starting to store up for winter.
Katie
Where do you find that they hang out in the river? You said it's kind of incidental, but at least in my experience, they were in just kind of the deeper holes of the river, where the river became mostly a lake. Have you found kind of patterns of where they like to hang out?
Dan
Yeah, I think what you just described is kind of 100% it, right? It's near the current but not in the current, and a little bit slower, a little bit deeper, a little bit tanked, kind of like, like you said, it's not quite a river and it's not quite a lake, but it's kind of in between, at least for the bigger ones. Obviously you get some smaller fish hanging in and around in some of the faster currents, but it seems like the bigger fish are exactly what you described.
Katie
Do you notice that they're usually caught more around dawn and dusk, or are they still eating kind of midday?
Dan
No, definitely in the fall when they do catch them. We have not, and I shouldn't say, I don't know that we've caught enough of them to establish a pattern.
Katie
Okay.
Dan
You know what I mean?
Katie
Yeah, maybe I'm blowing this up more in my mind, because the river I grew up on, it transitioned from a smallmouth fishery almost to, I would say more than 50% of the fish I catch out of there are walleye now.
Dan
Cool.
Katie
So that's maybe what I'm going off in my mind and maybe I'm conflating one to two walleye a year with this grand fishery. I don't know.
Dan
Yeah, yeah. No, that's what we're catching. We're catching a handful of walleye a year fishing for pike and musky. If we explored it a little more, could we catch a few more walleyes? Maybe, maybe, but we haven't gotten into it yet.
Katie
In the pike and the muskie, are you separating those a decent bit? Because I talked to someone before about pike and muskie, and in my mind and I feel like a lot of other people's mind, they're kind of similar fish, but I know they're not. They do have their own peculiarities, and they have different behaviors and things, even if they look a lot alike. How are you targeting them in different ways to ensure, "Okay, I want to catch a pike versus I want to catch a muskie"?
Dan
Sure. At least here, a lot of them you just find in different watersheds. A lot of them where you have a lot of pike, because of the way pike and musky spawn, you won't have as many muskies and vice versa. Usually if you're fishing, one watershed will be a pike fishery and another watershed will be a musky fishery. At least where we are, they don't overlap much.
Katie
Do you know, is that just because they prefer different habitat types?
Dan
I think a lot of it, and again, don't quote me on this because I don't understand it 100% because they're not what I specialize in, but from what I understand, a lot of it has to do with the timing of their spawning. Pikes spawn earlier in the spring than musky. The way I understand it, a lot of young juvenile muskies, first year muskies, get predated on by the pike because the pikes spawn earlier. They don't coexist well. At least around here, like I said, there is some overlap. I know the guys are always like, "Hey, we were muskie fishing at such and such today and we caught a huge pike." It was like crazy because we never catch pike there. I don't know, and again, don't quote me on a whole lot of that because I'm more of a steelhead, bass, trout guy. This is what I get from the guides who work out of the shop and other things, but that seems to be the case around here.
Katie
Got you. Is this all wade fishing or do you do any boat trips?
Dan
No, a lot of it is boat trips. We fish a lot of rafts. We don't have a lot of gradient in Ohio, and we've got to get around a lot of logs and obstructions and things like that. So rafts suit what we're doing a little better, actually much better than say like your more traditional drift boat would. So yeah, so the steelhead fishing, a lot of walk/wade fishing, and a lot of float. We do a lot of floats as well, just depending on what you want to do. The smallmouth and pike and muskie stuff is pretty much all floats.
Katie
Oh, really? Okay. I just pictured a lot of wade fishing, but maybe that's just because when I fished the Lake Erie tributaries, the water was too small to take a boat on. I think I've maybe extrapolated that out and assumed that that's mostly what you were doing. It's cool to hear that you've got a lot of the float trips too for the other species.
Dan
Yeah, no, absolutely it is. If you've been in many boats or rafts and gone down the river, it's just a great way to fish. It's just fun.
Katie
You mentioned trout over in Pennsylvania. Is Pennsylvania kind of the spot to go for trout? Is there anything nearby you? Or is that more of a, someone comes in and they want to fish trout, you're like, "We'll go make a destination out of it and head across the border."
Dan
Yeah, so, you know, Ohio kind of got cheated a little bit when it comes to, you know, you got Michigan over here, which has good trout fishing. You got PA on the other side, has decent trout fishing. You know, you got West Virginia to the south, which has good trout fishing. then somehow Ohio kind of got left out of the mix. So while we do have a couple, you know, Mohican State Park, there's a little bit of trout fishing, but for people in Ohio that want to go trout fishing and have a nice trout fishing experience, I think Pennsylvania is definitely the closest and best trout fishery we have. We could be trout fishing in PA from our shop in an hour and 20 minutes, which is pretty darn nice. Yeah. And then we do a lot of overnight stuff too. I mean, you know, Central PA and North Central PA and things like that as well.
Katie
And your clients, when they go over there, are they typically wanting to catch a specific species? Like, are they wanting to catch brown trout or something specifically? Or is it all over the map what people want to fish for, trout-wise?
Dan
Yeah, I think most of them just want to go, you know, if they haven't been trout fishing, to see what it's all about. If they have been trout fishing, just go enjoy the experience and the time on the water. Once in a while, you'll get somebody say, "Hey, I want to go catch some native brookies up in the mountains," and that's super cool and we can do that. The other requests we get, a lot of people are like, "Oh, I'd love to catch a few trout on the dry fly," which is kind of the ultimate. Obviously, we can do that as well. Species-wise, don't get a ton of requests other than you know than the native brookies.
Katie
Okay.
Dan
You know but a lot of the requests we do get like I'm gonna do some dry fly fishing you know.
Katie
And is there anything that I didn't cover that you would particularly like to highlight like if someone's coming to your neck of the woods you know how do you sell them or what would you tell them to kind of give them a good experience and get them excited about your your part of the country?
Dan
Yeah I'd say I would say come here with an open mind you know I can't tell you how many people we've taken out and we've fished with over the years and they're like, "You know, I didn't know what to expect when I was coming to Northeast Ohio." Because you know, you get Cleveland, right? You get a lot of that mistake by the lake and the Cuyahoga River catching on fire and everything else. So, you know, history hasn't been great and unfortunately people remember those negative things and kind of stick with them. But we do have We have great rivers. Cleveland has a wonderful food scene. I mean, great, fantastic restaurants. It has the second biggest theater district on the East Coast. It has wonderful Broadway shows and things like that. So the city itself is very vibrant. And the fisheries, people get on the rivers and they're like, "Wow, I had no idea. I didn't know you had bald eagles. We've seen five bald eagles today, how cool is that?" You know what I mean? And those kind of things. So I would say come with an open mind, and just be willing to experience new place, new things, new people. And I think if you do that, you'll have a really good time and you'll probably catch a couple of cool fish as well.
Katie
Sounds great. Well, Dan, just to wrap up, where can people find you if they want to either find you online or come book a trip with you or just come visit the fly shop and pick up some flies? Where's the best place to do that?
Dan
Yeah, so our fly shop is located in downtown Chagrin Falls, just a little south and a little east of Cleveland. Our website is www.chagrinriveroutfitters.com. Obviously we have Facebook, we have Instagram as well, Chagrin River Outfitters for both of those. The phone numbers and contact info are all on the website as well. So I think between all those things, they could definitely, if you're looking for us, find us for sure. We'd love to love to take anybody fishing for a day or have them in the shop.
Katie
I might have to stop in sometime. We come to Cleveland at least once or twice a year so maybe I'll come over and say hi next time we're in town.
Dan
Well I would be extremely disappointed if you were in town and at least didn't come in and say hello.
Katie
I'll make a point to come do that next time I'm there.
Dan
Yeah.
Katie
Well thank you so much Dan this is a lot of fun and it's nice to talk to people I like hearing about all the species that I don't get to fish for anymore out here in Colorado. Yeah. It's a nice burst of nostalgia.
Dan
Yeah, no, I'm sure you're struggling for things to throw a fly at out there. I feel bad for you.
Katie
Yeah, it's a rough life out here.
Dan
I'm sure, I'm sure.
Katie
Well, thank you so much, Dan. I'm sure we'll talk soon or see each other soon.
Dan
All right. Thank you very much, Katie.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes, you can find them on the YouTube channel of as well as show notes you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me and you can also find me on instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show you can give it a follow on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcasting app and if you'd like to leave a review it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise thank you all again for listening I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.