Ep 112: Fishing and Podcasting, Guest Appearance on Wet Fly Swing
Dave Stewart hosts the Wet Fly Swing Podcast and was generous enough to invite me on his show. He was also a guest on episode 96 of Fish Untamed. In this episode, I get to be on the other side of the microphone as Dave and I chat about backcountry fishing, ethical harvest, and some of the nitty-gritty details of running a podcast.
Wet Fly Swing website: link
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 112, my guest appearance on the wet fly swing fly fishing podcast
Intro
Welcome to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing Show, where you discover tips, tricks, and tools from the leading names in fly fishing today.
Dave
Katie Burgert from the Fish Untamed podcast is here to break out a serious chat around podcasting and the outdoors. We roam all over the place in this one from the 50-50 to the conservation to podcasting to business and everything in between. Is there anything we didn't cover in this one? That is a good question. She's got a good podcast and a great interview style, so I'm happy to share this one with you today. Here we go. Katie Berger from FishUntamed.com. How you doing, Katie?
Katie
I'm good. Happy to be here. It's nice to record in the morning and be enjoying a cup of coffee while we go.
Dave
Yeah, that's right. Do you normally, on your podcast, are you recording usually in the evening or when you're doing it?
Katie
Yeah, I usually do the evening and I don't really know why because I kind of like these morning ones and I think it's just a matter of waking up and doing it. So I think when you suggested morning, I was like, yeah, let's give that a go and I'm liking it.
Dave
Good. Good. There you go. So maybe we'll switch up your whole program. Maybe that'll change the the complexity of how your podcast turned out. Actually, we've done some, we do quite a bit in the evening as well. But I just find that it is nice in the mornings to knock it out and just be like, all right, yeah, I'm feeling good. It's like doing your work, right? Get the work done. And then the rest of your day, you're like, okay, I checked that box, right?
Katie
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, I hate to say that I don't look forward to podcast episodes because I do. I like talking to people and I like hearing about everyone's different area of expertise and everything. But that when it's later in the day, I'm thinking about it all day, like it's coming. It's still a bit of a chore. So yeah, I think you're right. It's nice to kind of knock it out and feel like you've gotten that part done for the day.
Dave
Yeah, definitely. Nice. Well, we're gonna dig into the Fish Untamed podcast that you have, and it's a good podcast. It sounds like when I listen to it, I always, you can tell a good podcast because you can tell the host is curious. That's always like the first thing. And it sounds like when you're listening that you are pretty interested in all these topics. Is that something that you're just naturally a curious person or talk about that. How do you ask the good questions?
Katie
Um, well, I guess the easiest way to say it is that I reach out to people that are knowledgeable in topics I'm interested in. So it's, it is a genuine curiosity, but, I think in general, I'm pretty curious about things that I like to do. And there's a lot of them. I'm by no means a, a fishing specialist or anything. I, I love fishing. I have since I was little, but, basically anything that is of interest to me, I can do a deep dive on. And so, and especially with fly fishing with so many different topics within that, I get, you know, that it's so diverse and the things that you can do and the techniques and the species and everything that I feel like there's just never enough to learn. Like there's always something else you can learn. And so yeah, part of it's a curiosity. Part of it's that I want to get better at fishing. And the way to do that is to talk to people who know more than I do. So it's kind of a, a lot of reasons, I guess. It's easy to ask questions when you're when you genuinely want to know what the people have to say.
Dave
Yeah, that's right. That makes it easy. You can't fake it. That's the great thing is that, you know, podcasting isn't easy. But if you're curious, and you're into it, it actually is kind of easy, right? I guess you could screw up, but it makes it easier to kind of enjoy it. So so good. Well, I want to just dig into a little on your background, the podcast, find out how it came to be, talk about your fishing, and then we'll dig into some of the podcast content out there. But let's just take it back to the podcast. You know, I know how much work it is doing a podcast, Take us there. When did this idea come to be and what made you start Fish Untamed?
Katie
Oh, man, I should actually have a date in my head when people ask this question. I want to say I started it in 2019, maybe. So it's been a couple of years. But it started as a blog probably a year or two before that. Long story short, I had used to do a little bit of guiding over the summer. And when I graduated from college, I needed a job that would go year round, obviously. So I left that and going from guiding all summer and fishing in my free time to having a job that didn't have a ton of flexibility or time off, I felt this kind of jarring sense of being stuck at a desk and felt like I was not fishing anymore. I mean, I was in my free time, but it just felt like this big shift from being outside all the time to feeling like I was never outside, basically. And the blog, I started as a way to, I guess, feel like I was still connected to fishing, even when I couldn't be outside. Because I could do that, you know, after the sun went down, after work, I could still feel like I was kind of being a part of that community, I guess. And so I'd write a blog post every week. And eventually I just kind of got burned out on that. I think I realized writing is not really my thing. I don't think I'm terrible at it. I don't think I'm the best at it, but I don't think I'm terrible at it. I just didn't like it. It felt like such a chore. I would not really look forward to it after having done it for a while. But I listened to a ton of podcasts at my job. It was just doing computer work. So I could listen to podcasts all day. And I realized that I was listening to basically every fly fishing podcast that was out at the time. And I feel like I'm such a part of the podcasting world despite just listening to them that I wonder if I should just give this a try. It seems like not terribly difficult and it is a lot of work like you mentioned but it's not terribly difficult to do I mean you need a microphone and some good people to talk to and that's about it yeah that's right so yeah I started that under the same name it was all on the same website and eventually I just kind of gave up on the blog I just it wasn't doing anything for me I would look forward to podcasting and I would still view the blog as a chore so I still have it on there in case I ever want to write up a story about some fishing trip I take or whatever. But overall, I've just kind of scrapped the blog. It just kind of sits there now. But yeah, the podcast is still going. I think you and I talked at length last time we talked. I don't know if it was on or off air, but it's just such a fun thing to do. I mentioned that it can kind of feel like a chore if I've got it coming in the evening, but that's just because I want to do a good job. And so I can't really relax until I've finished it. Because I owe the other person my full attention. So I've got to be on. I can't just kind of half-ass it, if you will. But it is fun. I've met a ton of great people, learned a lot of things. And yeah, it's still going and no plans to stop.
Dave
And are you doing weekly or how frequently are you doing podcast episodes?
Katie
So I started every week and I just found that it was... I worried that it was going to go the same route as the blog if I kept going weekly because scheduling interviews and everything, you're kind of at the mercy of other people. So I switched to every two weeks and that has been like kind of a great balance. It's easy for me to get a month or two ahead if I need to, if I've got something coming up. Like for example, this summer we're getting married. So my goal is to kind of record out past that so I can, you know, enjoy my time. And that's kind of, I feel like the, been the good balance for me of it still feels like it comes out often enough that people don't forget about it, but it lets me have a life away from it and keeps it enjoyable and fresh for me.
Dave
Yeah, perfect. And how do you go about, you know, choosing guests? So that's always the thing, right? You got lots of topics, not only fly fishing, but outdoor, you know, where do the ideas come from?
Katie
Kind of all over the place. I'd say some of them, I have an idea that I'd like to hear about, or like maybe a species I'd like to cover. And I'll just go on Google or go on Instagram and search for somebody who has like some expertise in that subject. And I'll just reach out and say, hey, found your name if you're interested in coming on. Some of my favorite people to get are recommendations from other guests. So I like to ask people when I hop off with them if they have anybody who they'd recommend as a good guest. Because that's, as I feel like, a good way to suss out not only someone who has an interest in what I'm interested in talking about, but also it's helpful to have somebody say like, yes, I think they'd be interested and be good at it. Because I've had people say before, this person is an expert on what you're But I don't think they would make the best podcast guest. And obviously, that's something to tell me in private. But, you know, not everybody is super jazzed about talking publicly for an hour online. And that's something I'd rather suss out ahead of time, because I'm getting one word answers back from people. It's not really conducive to a nice interview. So it's good to have somebody who's not only knowledgeable, but is able to hold a conversation and is enthusiastic about what they're talking about.
Dave
Yeah, that's right. Have you had some people along the way that have been on the podcast where it's been a little bit of a struggle maybe to get the answers to questions and things like that?
Katie
Yeah, I have. Not a lot. And everyone has been super nice. I haven't had anyone who I felt like was a mean person or anything like that. But there have been a handful of people that I think maybe were a little bit nervous or just maybe they didn't listen to podcasts and so didn't have a good feel for what makes a good conversation to listen to via audio. not to knock them. Um, but some people are easier than others. Let's just say that.
Dave
That's right. Yeah. I always find that as a straw, I mean, I think that the majority of the episodes we've done, it's always, it's, you know, usually it's great, but occasionally, yeah, there'll be something. And I always find that, you know, one trick I use is that more, again, like you're talking to, you're curious if you're sitting there listening and you feel like you're maybe getting bored a little bit or something like that, right. That's a good signal to maybe change the subject or just go into something wildly different, right? Because that's the thing with the, you know, because maybe, yeah, they're experts on the topic, but, you know, maybe they're just not, yeah. And so I find changing it up is a good way to do it.
Katie
And it's also key, I guess, to ask good questions. I mean, it's easy to get one word answers if you're asking yes or no questions. And so, you know, sometimes if I sense that somebody is not as chatty as somebody else, I'll try to limit the number of like one word answers that they could give and kind of ask them to go a little bit deeper. So they are, they kind of are forced to open up a little bit, which helps. I haven't had any episodes that I would say like went really poorly or anything like that. Just kind of have to change the technique.
Dave
Gotcha. Well, let's look back at maybe some of the episodes you've done and recently that you can remember. Then we'll also look ahead maybe and just think, so we can get people listening here. Obviously they're into podcasts or listening now. Let's talk about that. What are some recent ones that really come to your mind when you think of past podcasts that are already out there people could take a look at?
Katie
Yeah. So I'm just looking at the ones I've done recently. Actually, they came out this morning. It was episode 95, so it's like a little bit back on my list, but it came out today. It's with George Kaider on pike fishing. I've been really liking the species specific episodes, and I think people tend to like them as well. Because I try to cover a wide range of topics, and sometimes that's like conservation and stuff. But those ones don't tend to do as well as much as I wish they did. People love the like how to catch such and such on the fly. And so I did one with George, and we went deep into pike fishing, which is fun. just because most of the episodes I do tend to be trout centered. Even if it's not meant to be, you know, that's how they land when you're talking about fly fishing upcoming, I've got almost to episode 100, which I'm really excited about. And it's with a guy named Patrick episode. 100 will be with a guy named Patrick and he's creating this like long, it's almost like a through hike, but with fishing related. So he's calling it the Gila Traverse and he's doing a trip all through the native range of the Gila trout down in the Southwest. And he's just kind of creating this as a, like a passion project, a way to see all of the range covered by this trout that he likes to fish for. And I tend to like focusing on back country fishing on my show. So this is kind of my bread and butter. Like I love hearing from people who are just doing like crazy things, to try to like spice up their fishing life. And it's like, yeah, these trout aren't super big, you know, I don't catch a ton of them, but, here's a way that I can make this really interesting and exciting and, go see like where this trout lives and you know, what makes it it, which I just really love that kind of topic. And, yeah, he reached out and said he was doing that. And I was like, this sounds exactly what I want to hear. So that's what I'm excited for coming up.
Dave
Nice. Yeah. So I know, yeah, the back country is cool. We've had a few episodes talking about gear and just, you know, how to get out in the back country. So is that something, you know, when you're going fishing, is that what you find yourself doing most of the time? Kind of doing some like multi-day hikes, just getting out in the back country. that typically what you do?
Katie
That's my favorite thing to do for sure. And it's not always multi day. That's, you know, when I've got time off or a long weekend, yeah, I like to do two to three day backpacking trips usually, but also just day trips just far away. I mean, I'll hike five to six miles in a day each way without thinking twice. So I still do get out there regardless of how much time I have off. But yeah, that's where I would be, you know, every time I went fishing, if I had my choice was like an alpine lake or some backcountry tiny stream that you feel like no one's been there before even though that's probably not the case you can at least convince yourself that yeah no one's ever been there before
Dave
that's right so so lakes so you do both lakes and streams there do you kind of do more of one or the other
Katie
in the like middle of the summer I probably do more lakes although it really depends on the summer like you know sometimes I just end up at more streams. But in the shoulder seasons, I definitely end up more on rivers just because it's what's open. I mean, in the spring, the Alpine lakes haven't thought out yet. Because when I'm talking about lakes, I mean like the Alpine lakes, you know, 10,000 plus feet. So they're only open a couple months a year. So, you know, in like July, that's if I can, if I have my way, that's where I will be because I think they're beautiful and they're fun to get to. But in spring, early summer, fall, I do a lot of small streams and some of the rivers down here.
Dave
Yeah. And where are you at? Where is down here?
Katie
I'm in Lakewood, Colorado. So about 20, 25 minutes west of Denver.
Dave
Oh yeah. You're right there. So you're west of Denver. Gotcha.
Katie
Yeah. Right at the foot of the mountains basically.
Dave
Yeah. Right at the foot. Right. So the rain shadow, right? You get pretty awesome weather throughout the year.
Katie
Yeah. I think they say we get like 300 days of sun. But in the summer we usually get an afternoon thunderstorm. Yeah. That's right. Not as much down here, but in the mountains, basically every day you can count on like a 1 PM thunderstorm that'll roll through.
Dave
Sure. Yeah. Not a big deal. So in Colorado, have you been there for a while? Has that been your home base for a while now?
Katie
Yeah, I think I've been here for 11 years now. On and off, though, because when I was guiding, so I guided out here, but I was in school back home where I was born in Pennsylvania. So I've been out here in some capacity since 2012, but I would go home to go to school from until 2015. So yeah, I think this is my 11th year of spending some sort of some portion of my year in Colorado and I've been out here permanently since 2015.
Dave
Okay. So how's the guiding looked? Are you still doing a little bit of that or what were you guiding for?
Katie
No, no, not anymore. I'd like to get back to occasionally going up and helping because mostly it kind of stopped because I live too far away now from where I was. It was a summer thing. So I could still go up during the summers after I stopped and had moved on. I would go up and run a couple trips every summer, But we moved farther south and now I'm about two hours away from where I was. So it's a bit more of a hassle to get up there now. And my friend, I think, is taking over the business. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say that, but I guess I won't share the name of anything just in case. But I think there might be talk of her kind of starting to transition to taking over. And so in that case, if she's still going to be in charge of it and I'll still have a connection to it for a while, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point I start doing the occasional summer trip with them again. I don't think I'll ever be full time.
Dave
Yeah.
Katie
Just because I don't have summers off. But yeah, I think it could end up being like a, you know, two or three trip in a summer kind of thing.
Dave
Nice. Do you like the guiding? Is it something that you really like love or is it a challenge? Is it hard? Do you find it, you know, because I know for me, I found guiding a very challenging.
Katie
Yes. So I, I mean, I loved it and I really look back on it fondly. But I do remember that by the end of the summer, I was always burnt out. And I thought, I really respect the people who can do this year round because I would not be able to. Not because of the fishing, although going to the same places over and over and over again. Like, we were kind of limited in, like, where we could go. And so it did end up being a lot of the same places over and over again. So that would kind of start to wear on me. But it was more the having to be on with people all the time. Like, I know we talked about how it's fun to talk on the podcast with people. But that happens once every couple weeks. Um, and in general, I'm a bit of an introvert and I don't, I feel drained after spending a whole day, you know, showing people a good time basically. Um, and that is like more of what guiding is. I mean, if you know how to fish, then the fishing is not terribly difficult. Like I can, I can get somebody on a 10 inch trout. That's not horribly hard. Um, it was just showing people a good time, teaching them. And I like teaching, and you know, of course people are great, but there are people who make it more difficult. and those people would start to kind of wear on you. And by the end of the summer, I was usually ready to wrap up and go back to school at the time, that's what I was doing. So yeah, I'm always really impressed with the folks that can do it year round and are guiding like full days every day. And for clients who care a lot more, I mean, where we were guiding, the fish weren't super big. It was a lot of relative beginners. And I liked teaching beginners a lot because I felt like they had realistic expectations. People who are taking out, you know, seasoned clientele for trophy fish, I think that would wear on me even more with the stress of, you know, really, really wanting to get them what they came for, which is, you know, a specific size of fish or specific number of fish. That part would stress me out.
Dave
Yeah, that is one of the challenges. And I've talked to a number of guys, as I'm sure you have, and you talk to some of them and you can hear, you know, those ones that are just really, they love it so much. You know, they sound like a kid in a candy store.
Katie
Yeah.
Dave
They're just like, man, I think Bruce Shard was the last person we had on that. He was just talking about how, you know, he's, he's guiding like, you know, whatever, 250 days a year. And then he's out another 50 days on hosting, you know, and he just, you can just tell he loves it, you know, like he can't get enough of it. And so I think those are the guides that really make it right. That you could just tell. And so, yeah, I mean, I think some people are built for just like probably on podcasting. It's kind of funny to say, but there's probably some people that are just made for podcasting as well. Right.
Katie
Yeah. And I mean, to be honest, if I went out with a guide, I would want it to be one of those people. I'd want it to be somebody who like literally does not think about anything but fishing. That's all they do. And I, I love fishing, but I love doing a lot of other things too. And, I kind of balanced my life in the summer. I do a lot of fishing in the winter. I do a lot of skiing. And, if I were on the water every day of the year, I think it might start to wear on me a little bit, not because I would get bored of fishing, but because I would feel like I was missing out on some of the other activities I also like doing, like hunting and skiing. Um, so I like that balance in my life because it, by the time fishing season comes back around, I'm so excited to get out that, you know, that's when I'm like a kid in a candy store because every season I'm looking forward to something new. Um, so yeah, I, I respect those people. That's who I would want as a guide, but I think for me, I need a little bit more balance in my life with some of the other activities I do right now.
Dave
What is, what is it like? So we're kind of in the February, what's the weather like there right now? Is it pretty, pretty cool?
Katie
It's been, actually, we had a couple of days in the sixties, recently, but yesterday we got about six inches of snow and today I think it's a high of 20 or so so it's it's kind of chilly today but yeah it's a solidly ski season hunting season went a little later this year hunting season has been gradually encroaching on winter is this for elk elk deer small game we did some waterfowl this year which is kind of why it's starting to expand we used to mostly just be during archery season in September and then we started doing some more of the the rifle stuff in October and then the small game and it's been creeping later and later. What's small game? We do snowshoe hares, squirrels. We did marmot for the first time this year, although that's more of a late summer species. That's like end of August. But yeah, it's been growing and growing and adding waterfowl this year brought us into January. But now I think it's officially over for us, not for the season, but for us. I think we're done and solidly into ski season now.
Dave
Okay. And what out of your episodes, if you look back at, you're almost at a hundred out of the what percent are you know fishing versus hunting versus other topics they all have something to do with fishing
Katie
that's I yeah try to keep it like that just because I assume that if people are listening to a fishing show they probably want to hear at least something about fishing each time but some have definitely skewed toward other things I've nothing about skiing or anything really but actually I had one recently that involved a skier and we talked about it for a couple minutes but yeah they all are mostly fishing I did have one recently that was about like the harvesting of fish you know keeping fish and so that one also got a decent bit into hunting because it was more about like the ethical keeping of animals not fishing specific so fishing did come up hunting probably got talked about a little bit more but I would say maybe five percent of my episodes talk about hunting in some meaningful capacity more than that mention it, but, definitely makes up the vast majority of what I talk about.
Dave
Cool. Well, we'll, we'll put a link out to some of these episodes. So on this, I'm kind of curious on this ethical one. So what was the talk there? What was the discussion around safe fishing? Was it, you know, was there kind of a, a focus that you really dug into is, was it kind of like just to kill fish or not? Or what was that, what did that look like?
Katie
It was, I guess it's more about the idea of kind of respecting what you kill. Um, and like I So that one was kind of hunting focused, but I've noticed a discrepancy with how people treat what they kill. So I have no problem harvesting fish, you know, in places that can supply that and where it's legal. I have no problem with that. And I keep fish not a lot, but I do. And I've noticed that in the hunting world, people have been really moving toward, you know, respecting what you kill, giving it like a quick, clean death. And I really like that. And then for fish, people just like don't seem to care as much. Like they'll just throw fish in a bucket or like they don't they don't really think about it the same way that, you know, some people will like kneel down and pray over an animal they've killed while hunting. Which, you know, I think that's awesome. I think that having a spiritual connection to that is a really healthy thing to add to like getting your own food. But people don't tend to do the same thing for fish. And I don't know why people tend to value a fish's life less. But I've been making an effort to be a little bit more meaningful when I keep a fish and not just think of it as this frivolous thing that this animal still died so you can have something to eat. And while I have no problem with killing an animal to eat it, I think that there needs to be a little bit of mindfulness around that. And having respect for what you kill and providing that a quick, clean death the same way that you would for a deer or an elk. So that's kind of what we talked about was just kind of having a connection to your food and kind of attaching some sort of a spiritual connection to it. not necessarily a religious connection, but just really connecting with your food and thinking about it and having a mindfulness about when you do that.
Dave
Right, right. And probably not just food too, right? I mean, you could even take it to the extreme level of say, you know, a bug, right? Or a spider. I mean, that's an animal too, right? Out there that's a living creature. It's kind of in there. I see where the disconnect comes in a little bit with the fishing, right? Because you look at like, okay, you've got a mammal, this animal, then you go down to a fish, some fish, right? And then even lower, right? Like less, right? Or whatever. But I mean, I think everything's living. So, and you could even take it to plants too, right? I mean, there's people out there that are literally like, don't kill plants.
Katie
Yeah. And I, like, I know there's, at some point there's a practicality to it. Like I'm, you know, if there's a mosquito on my arm and I slap it, I'm not going to like,
Dave
you're not going to worry about that. You're not going to pray for the mosquito.
Katie
And then I like, it's probably a little bit hypocritical. Cause like, I just argued that, you know, life is a life, but I think at some point we have to continue living our lives and be practical about it. I just don't think it's difficult if you kill a fish to at least think about the meaning of that. When you're eating the fish, think about where your food came from. We talked about plants. I'm obviously not against killing things. I'm not like a plant lives matter or whatever. Even when we garden things, I've tried to get a little bit more focused on when I'm sitting down for my meal that evening to think about that, hey, I grew this myself. And it's not necessarily like feeling bad about killing it or whatever. It's more just, I feel good when I, yeah, like a little bit of gratitude, I guess. And I'm not a super religious person, but I think the act of, you know, for people who are religious, like thanking God before their meal, I think that's a healthy practice to have in your life, like be grateful for what you have. And so I've just kind of tried to get a little bit closer to that with whatever it is that I'm eating, especially if it's something that I've procured myself to just think about it when I sit down to eat that, you know, I'm grateful that whatever it is, is here for me to eat.
Dave
Perfect. No, that's, that's well said. So for your listeners, I'm always interested in this because I know people listening here, we have quite a few men versus, you know, kind of women out there in our audience. Do you know kind of who your listener is? Do you have more, is it more biased towards women or is it mixed?
Katie
You know, I haven't looked in a while. I did look at my demographics at one point and I remember it being more men than women. It wasn't drastic. It wasn't like 95% men. But I haven't looked in quite a while. So I couldn't actually give you numbers. I definitely hear from men more often in my email, like when people reach out to either suggest a guest or just, you know, mention something about an episode. The vast majority of people who reach out are men. But I'm not sure what the demographics are, actually. I'd be curious to see if it differs from any of the other fly fishing episodes out there or podcasts.
Dave
That would be interesting because it's always we've had that topics come up a few times on like the, you know, the 50-50, the Orvis, right? Do you see that? I mean, you're just from your perspective, obviously you probably have a different perspective than I do on it. But is that something you think about? Like diversity and seeing, you know, changes there? Have you talked about that in the podcast at all?
Katie
I haven't talked about it a whole lot. And it's kind of hard because I feel like when I go fishing, I very rarely see other women on the water, especially by themselves. But most of my fishing friends are women. And it's, I mean, it's probably because I seek that out. But a couple of my closest friends are very avid female anglers. And I've had a decent number on the show. I've definitely had more men, which I think is just a product of there are probably still more men who fish than women. So it's easier to find guests who are men. But I think it's definitely been growing. And I don't want to say that we're fully where we need to be yet, just because I have and I've had friends who have had not so great experiences in fly shops before, not very recently. I think it's still getting better. And I don't think we're quite where we need to be, but I think we're almost there. I think the vast majority of anglers are very welcoming. And the vast, vast majority of interactions I have with people, both in fly shops and on the water and online are very positive. And that's just based on men and women. I think we could have more diversity in general, and that's definitely a larger conversation. But overall, for the men and women thing, I think we're close. And I hope we to a point where it's no longer something that really we need to talk about. Yeah. The one thing that still kind of annoys me that I don't know if I watched it last year, but in some of the film fests, I have noticed that there have been a decent number of films that feature women, which is great, but where the topic is that, you know, there's a woman fishing. And the one thing I'd really like to see more of is like women being featured in these films where the topic isn't that she's a woman who's fishing. And it's just like any other film, but there happens to be a woman in the crew. That's what I want to see. So I'm hoping that we can get there. And I don't even know if I watched the F3T last year. So maybe we have gotten there. And I just kind of checked out. But that's what I'd really like to see. It's just kind of like it's no longer a topic that we need to talk about. That's where I'd like to get to.
Dave
Yeah, that's well put. I think that is awesome. And it's good to hear that, yeah, you feel like we're definitely getting close too, right? That's also awesome to hear. Do you think, you know, I'm just always curious about this because I'm trying to, for myself, try to make sure that I'm doing the best job I can to, it's tough because even like, you know, the diversity inclusion, right, all that stuff, there's a lot of stuff going out there that you want to make sure you're doing the best. But again, sometimes it's hard to even know, right? And do you find yourself getting caught up on that or do you just kind of do your thing and focus on, you know, being curious and having a good time and don't really worry about all that other stuff and the diversity and everything on that end?
Katie
uh I'd say for the most part the latter like I'm quite quiet online I guess the one thing I do try to do is I try to make an effort to have people from different backgrounds on my podcast and like I said part of it is a function of if there's a lot of like white men available to talk as guests then I'm going to end up talking to a lot of white men
Dave
exactly and I'm the same way I mean i'm you look at my thing it's a bunch of white guy right I think there's less older white guys old the old joke, but there's still a lot of white guys. Yeah. It's just younger white guys now.
Katie
Yeah. Right. But I mean, that said, so I do, I do try to make an effort. Like sometimes I'll look at my episodes and be like, man, I have talked to nothing but white guys for the past 10 episodes. I should probably try to find somebody who differs from at least one of those things in the upcoming episodes. But I wouldn't say that I think about it a lot, I guess. I mean, I reach out, a lot of people will reach out and ask to be guests and I, you know, welcome them and I get recommendations. So I reach out to basically anybody who I think is interesting. And it happens to skew my guests probably more toward the white male side. But I do like to hear from people from different backgrounds. So if I ever have the opportunity to talk to somebody who does not fit that stereotype, then I'm happy to talk to them and hear their perspective.
Dave
Perfect. Do you find that, you know, just looking back at, you know, everything you're doing, I mean, it sounds like you're loving it and just looking ahead as far as, you know, you're doing two episodes a week. So that means you're going to get 26 more episodes right here this next year, this year. Do you find that that's, it sounds like that's pretty easy for you to do. Are you looking out past that year and thinking about, okay, what could this become? Or is it more like you're just kind of focusing on, you know, shorter term?
Katie
I guess I'd say shorter term. There was a time where I was, there was a part of me that was like, maybe I could really pursue this and turn it into something kind of more like in a money-making capacity, I guess. And I'm about to graduate from grad school and have a job and everything now. So I think now I'm more focused on that as an actual career, because I think I would get burned out the same way I got burned out on guiding, the same way I got burned out on blogging. The reason this works is that I do it infrequently enough. And I don't want to say I don't care about it because I do care about it. I obviously value my respect and value my guest's time, but I don't care about it in the sense that if I had to stop tomorrow, I could. And I like knowing that because it makes it just something fun to do. If I knew that I had to pay my bills from it, I think I would stress a lot about it and then it wouldn't be fun for me. And because I started this as a fun thing, I kind of like to keep it that way. And so I've kind of transitioned away from the idea of like wanting to make it something huge. You know, if it made me some money, that'd be great. Right now I basically break even, but I like knowing that it's not my primary means of income. And because of that, I don't have to think super far out I I am curious where podcasts are going my fancy has been talking about like a podcast 2.0 thing and maybe you're familiar with that also in the podcast space I don't know a ton about it yeah I I am like intrigued to see where podcasting goes and I feel like there's a lot of potential because podcasts while they're that I think they're getting more listened to it's still kind of in its infancy I think it is with how it runs the fact that there's no centralized place for comments or anything like that. I guess Apple Podcasts is kind of that, but in one way, I think it's becoming more decentralized with more podcasting platforms. But also, I'd like to see some way for podcasts to all be integrated, all the platforms to be integrated. So interaction with hosts and comments and reviews and things like that can all be easily found and left. So I don't know. I'm curious to see where that goes. But for my own show, I'm not usually thinking more than a couple of months out, just trying to find good guests and I don't, I really have much to think about because I'm, it's just been going, just kind of cruising for the past year or two. I haven't really made a lot of changes or anything. So I just kind of like where it's at and I'm just kind of letting it go where it's going.
Dave
Yeah, and I do know a little bit about the podcast 2.0. I think that is an awesome thing. I think it's Adam Curry is the guy behind that, right? And the idea being the value for value where there's different ways to monetize podcasting, but their thought there is that you actually create a way for people listening to give you money. essentially in an easy way, right? So they could just be like, go here. If you found value in this episode, go leave some money. There's lots of different things, but that's kind of the value for value. And he set it up. And that's what, and also they're decentralizing it too. Because part of the thing is Apple Podcasts has 60% of the listeners are on Apple. Spotify has like 20% or something like that. So it's these two big, you know, and Apple has been awesome and they probably will be awesome for a while. And Spotify has been great too. But the idea being there that it's more, you know, there isn't one big player that has it, right? It's more decentralized, I think, is where that's going. But I'm not sure.
Katie
How does that come from Patreon? Because Patreon is a way for people to give money.
Dave
Yeah, Patreon is the same idea. You know, I think Patreon is just, yeah, I mean, they take their cut off of it, right? So this is like, there is nobody's taking a cut. It's like straight up, you're getting money. There's no 2% fee. I'm not quite sure how all the background, you know, that it works. But that's essentially it. Like there is no, like Apple podcast could leave tomorrow and you'd still be making money because people are paying you directly.
Katie
Got it. Have you done anything like this? Obviously, I don't think it's like fully rolled out. But have you played around with the idea of letting people, you know, donate money for the content?
Dave
Yeah, we've done. I mean, I've done the a little bit. Right. So the Patreon, we did a little bit of that. We still have a community in there that, you know, we have some folks that pay to support the podcast. So we have definitely done it. I've just found the sponsorship model a little more effective, right? And so that's kind of the route that we've gone. And I think it is a great route. I think the sponsorship works great when you find the right sponsors. People are loving them. And so the sponsors are basically paying you. And that's kind of how that works. But no, I think the Value for Value Podcast 2.0 thing is very – I'm really looking forward to seeing how it grows and evolves over time.
Katie
Yeah, I am too. And I'm kind of surprised it's taken this long for something to come to the podcast world. Because I feel like podcasts are huge these days. And my listenership might not indicate that. But some of the bigger shows aren't in a niche topic. Because I feel like in fly fishing, there's definitely bigger shows and smaller shows. But there's only so many people who fly fish and want to listen to a podcast about it. So take everyone who fly fishes. It's not that many. Now, how many of those people listen to podcasts? Also, probably not that many in the grand scheme. But the bigger podcasts that are on more general topics, they're getting tons of listeners. So I'm kind of surprised it's taken this long for people to really jump on that bandwagon.
Dave
Yeah, and I think they are some of the big ones, right? I mean, Joe Rogan, he's the biggest. I mean, he sold his for like $200 million or something. So there's definitely, and you hear about some of these things that's going on out there. There is actually quite a bit of money out there being spent buying podcasts. You hear about it out there. So there is some stuff going, but I think that the struggle is right now is people, the people spending the money, some of them, the producers and stuff like that are coming from outside of podcasting. And so they might be in the TV or in that realm. They don't understand how podcasts work. So I think there's been a lot of money spent where they're expecting some, a different return on their investment than they're actually getting. Cause podcast growth is slow. I mean, it's not a fast growing thing. Like our podcast has grown slowly over time, but that's kind of what it is. And so it is a different, I think that's the biggest challenge that a lot of people, especially the industry people outside of podcasting that have the money, they don't understand how it works.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the podcasts are, I think what's nice about them is they are stable. Like I don't think my listenership really wildly fluctuates. I mean, some episodes definitely get more listeners than others, but at the end of the day, people who are subscribed to a podcast are probably still downloading it. Even if they, you know, I download a ton of episodes cause I have it set to automatically download and I don't listen to them cause I look at the topic and I'm like, that's not I still download it. And so if you're looking at download numbers, I feel like they stay pretty steady. You don't get like wild fluctuations, which is nice. Um, but it is slow. Like you said, it's a very slow methodical process of, you know, years and years you gain some small percentage of listeners, which is what you want.
Dave
Yeah. That's, that's the building on and, you know, you're building the audience and the more you're in it, the better. Um, and then, yeah, so on the downloads too, there is this piece, you know, on the downloads. So there's IAB certified downloads then there's just regular downloads. So the IAB certified are essentially downloads that get downloaded, but they have to listen to a certain percentage of the podcast to get counted. So, so that gets the bots out of the thing. So you can actually see, okay, yeah, these are people that not only downloaded, but actually listened to a few minutes of the episode.
Katie
See, I didn't even know that. I don't feel like I've seen differentiation. Um, when I've looked at my downloads, they're just downloads.
Dave
Well, that would be, I'd ask your host, you know, I'd go to your host and say, hey, are these IAB certified? I mean, like that's, you know, I mean, your host, if they don't do it, you might just say, hey, this is something that, you know, there's obviously discussion in there, but that's something I'm always, you know, we host with Libsyn and they're one of the oldest and, you know, that's something they really focus on. But no, this is good. I'm glad we went down the nerdy podcast track because this is like, This is the fact that you're a podcaster, I'm a podcaster. It's like we had to go here. So let's keep this going on this track. So tell me about the tech. And I ask this question because I always love to help other people listening. I know there's a few podcasters that are listening that maybe haven't started yet. What is your tech? So it sounds like it's been easy for you, but talk about your setup, how you do interviews.
Katie
It's easy for me now because I feel like I've gotten my system down. I went through a lot of frustration trying to find a good microphone and a good setup and a good podcasting platform. Or I guess, I don't know if platform, like a recording platform, I mean. But I've got the Audio-Technica headsets that I think a lot of podcasters use them.
Dave
Yeah, what are those? What's the number of that, the Audio-Technica?
Katie
I want to say it's like BPHS-1 or something. I got it on.
Dave
Oh yeah, you got it on. It sounds awesome. So what are they, like $200, $300?
Katie
Yeah, I think they retail for about $200. And I got mine on eBay used. So the plus side is they cost less. The downside is one of them squeaks. The parts that go over your ears, I think it needs to be lubed up or something because it squeaks a little bit and you can hear it in the microphone.
Dave
Yeah. So we're not hearing it, but you're hearing a squeak.
Katie
I've got two of them and I use the one that doesn't squeak. But if I have another guest at my house doing this, then I hear they're squeaking in the recording. Oh, there you go.
Dave
Okay.
Katie
So I've got to get that out. But yeah, the headsets themselves are great. Maybe just consider returning it if you get a squeaky one, which I didn't do. And then I've got an audio interface. It's a Behringer Euphoria UMC. Yeah, I think that's what it's called. And yeah, that's basically the whole setup. I mean, it goes straight into the laptop. It's an XLR connection, so it sounds decent. And I use Zencastr for my recordings. But I know there's a lot of good options.
Dave
Is that a paid? Is Zencastr paid or free?
Katie
The tier I'm on is free, which is really nice because I used to charge for the basic tier. Now they only charge if you want the premium features. but I feel like they are very generous with their basic features. I can record multiple people at a time, which I know some platforms are like, you can do you and one other person or pay more to have more guests. And I think Zencaster can have up to five or 10 people on their basic tier. I think you can get transcriptions at higher tiers, but I'm not sure what else you get because I actually haven't really needed anything from their premium tiers. I'm perfectly happy on their basic tier.
Dave
So basically your microphone XOR plugs into the Behringer, Behringer plugs into the computer, and then you're on Zencaster and that all goes into your audio interface. So you're recording, you're getting your clean audio and then pretty much plug and play. You didn't have to do a lot of settings or anything on the Behringer?
Katie
I did have to set it up. I did tweak it a lot when I first got it. But once I got it set, I just don't touch those dials and it works.
Dave
Yeah, don't touch it exactly. Yeah, that is the tech. I mean, to be, you know, for those that listen, you don't even have to, right? You could start even without the audio interface. You can start with your computer. You could record, right? You could even do Zoom. I mean, right? Even just a Zoom. I mean, it's not the best audio quality, but I always tell people like just to get started, do Zoom, do whatever you have to do, and it'll be better than not doing it. Right.
Katie
Yeah, I started with Zoom and a crappy microphone and two other crappy microphones and two other recording platforms later, I think I've settled where I am. But it's kind of it's a rocky road when you start. But once you get it figured out, it's really just like I walked in five minutes before we started recording, plugged everything in and was ready to go. You know, once you've got it set the way you need it, it's very plug and chug.
Dave
Good to go. And who's your hosting company for the podcast?
Katie
I am on Megaphone. I was on Libsyn, but I joined a podcast network and they use Megaphone, so I switched over.
Dave
Yeah, that's right. And what's the network you're on?
Katie
Waypoint Outdoors.
Dave
Yeah, you're in Waypoint. Yeah, with Tom. Who's the main guy?
Katie
Yeah, Tom Rowland.
Dave
Yeah, Tom Rowland. Exactly.
Katie
Yeah, I think he's coming on as a guest soon because I'm doing a saltwater trip in June, my first saltwater trip. So I'm hoping that we can talk about that a little bit because I've got some dummy questions I need to ask.
Dave
Yeah, where are you headed?
Katie
We're going to Belize for our honeymoon and doing a week of flats fishing.
Dave
Yeah, that's going to be great.
Katie
Yeah, we're pretty pumped. I'm not really sure what to expect. I have a very basic knowledge of saltwater fishing, and some things translate over fine. But we're probably going to take my eight weight out and do some practicing, casting into the wind with that so we can be good clientele, I guess.
Dave
That's cool. I mean, we've done a ton of saltwater, even though I haven't been out on salt that much. But yeah, Bruce Chartigan, he was on recently, just talked about. there's so many little things where it's different from freshwater, right? Just from casting, right? The wind, you got to deal with the wind potentially getting slammed, keeping your cast low. So it is going to be fun. You're going to, the learning curve will be interesting. And then species wise, right? I mean, like all these crazy species, like bonefish, permit, you're probably going for, you probably got the three, right? Potentially there.
Katie
Yeah. Yep. The three are there, bonefish, permit, and tarpon. Um, and I love catching lots of different species. I am not like a, Oh, I got to catch a tarpon of whatever size. Like if they have, you know, trigger fish or barracuda or whatever else is down there, I like will catch whatever they've got. And if I've already caught one of that species, I'll probably switch it up and try for something else just to experience all the different fish. Because, you know, they're also different, even in the freshwater. I mean, imagine comparing trout to smallmouth bass to carp. Like they're all so different. And I, yeah, I like learning about all the different fish and how they behave. So I definitely want to go for the three. I mean, a permit might be a tall order for my first saltwater trip, but bonefish seem like, I don't want to say easy, but a low-hanging fruit. Yeah, easier for sure. And I feel like a week with a guide, I hope to be able to get a bonefish, but whatever that they've got, I'm down to try for. And so if he's got something that he really likes targeting and his clientele don't normally show interest in, I'm going to be down to try whatever he's hoping to catch that day.
Dave
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Follow your guide. Just listen to your guide. let them, they'll take you there. Uh, so if somebody is listening now, we've got people listening in and they're interested in checking out your podcast. What would you tell them to say, Hey, okay, here's an episode, go search. Or what do you tell somebody who's brand new to your show that hasn't listened to it yet?
Katie
Um, I guess I've never like had this, question before. Um, I sent it to my website. That's where the episodes live. Um, is that what you're asking?
Dave
Yeah. So go to your way. And then how do they know? Like, cause again, like our podcast, right, we've got 420 episodes. So it's kind of like, well, they could get lost in it. So do you feel like people, how could they find the right episode? Like if they're into fishing for something, how would they find it?
Katie
Yeah. I mean, I usually try to be fairly descriptive in the title if there's something, if there's a specific topic. So if we're talking about a certain species or something like that, I do try to put that species in the title. So it should be searchable on like a podcasting app. And a lot of the episodes though are not like specific to a certain topic. we just kind of see where the conversation goes. So some episodes are just discussing, you know, social media use in fishing and, you know, how the culture has changed over the years and things like that. So I kind of assume that most people searching for a podcast are not searching specifically for that. That's kind of more for the regular listener who just wants a little bit more variety. Because I assume that most people who are searching for a specific thing are searching for like, I want to catch a such and such fish on the fly. How can I do that? So I think for the topics that would be topics you'd search for, they should be searchable by the title. And I have show notes too. They're not super detailed, but I give kind of a rundown of what we talk about in the episode. I don't know if show notes are searchable, but if they are, then usually there's something in there.
Dave
Oh, searchable on the podcast?
Katie
Yeah. Like I don't know if someone goes to their podcasting app and searches a topic.
Dave
No, I don't think they are. I think that's part of the thing with the podcasting is that really the only searchable stuff is really the title tag and then the guest tag. Yeah, the actual description isn't searchable, but it's searchable online, right? So that's why you pop up in Google for it too.
Katie
Sure. Yeah. And I have my guest's name in each title as well. So if they're looking for a specific guest, and I have had some names that would definitely be on people's radar, April Vokey. And if people are looking for a specific guest, there's a not 0% chance that I've had them on if they're a big name. I definitely haven't had every big name, but some of the big names I have.
Dave
So you had April on?
Katie
Yeah, I had April on actually pretty early on. Definitely like a year or two ago.
Dave
How'd that go? What'd you guys cover?
Katie
It was shortly after she released her Anchored Outdoors. Are you familiar with her program?
Dave
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Katie
Okay. Yeah. So it's shortly after she released that. And so I think the topic, besides just the fact that she had that out, was being like well-rounded in the outdoors. And this was kind of, I think it's kind of from her perspective because Anchored Outdoors is not just a fishing platform. And for me, having other outdoor interests, we talked about kind of the benefit of being well-rounded in outdoor skills and how learning these other skills can benefit you on the water too. It was actually probably one of the less fishing specific episodes I've done, despite being like one of the biggest names in fly fishing. We talked about hunting and foraging and all kinds of stuff.
Dave
Yeah, you covered it all. Yeah, she's definitely a pretty sharp cookie, right? She's pretty intelligent. So I'm looking at your website. I don't really see a search. Like there's not necessarily a search bar, right? You can't just go on your website and search for a topic. It doesn't look like.
Katie
You know what? There used to be, but I switched website providers and I'm actually looking at it now. And I think you might be right that I didn't get that search function back in there. So yeah, I guess maybe like Google would be the place for that or just on the podcasting app. That would be the best place.
Dave
Yeah, there you go. I always think that because like with our podcast, I do it all the time. I mean, I use ours as like a search engine. I go on and like, okay, and just type it in. and it helps me remember sometimes what we've done. But good.
Katie
You're right, though. Because I do put all the episodes on my website with the show notes and everything. So that's a good idea. I definitely had it before, and I should definitely add that back in.
Dave
There you go. No, it's good. Yeah, you got a ton. It's a good clean. I love the – yeah, your site is awesome. It's a good clean theme and all that stuff. Perfect. Well, let's see. I mean, we're doing good. I feel like we've dug into the podcasting. We've dug into a little bit on the fishing, the diversity of topics, which really is what your show is about. Anything else you want to leave us with as far as just people listening, what they can expect from, you know, if they haven't heard of your podcast yet, they're thinking about going to take a look?
Katie
Yeah, I kind of marketed it as a backcountry fly fishing podcast. And I obviously don't talk about that every episode. You know, if I'm talking about smallmouth bass, we're talking about smallmouth bass. We're not talking about backcountry fishing in that one specifically. But I try to bring it back around to that if I haven't talked about it in a while, because that is really what I like to spend my time doing and talking about. So if people have a specific interest in that backcountry fly fishing, hiking, camping, that kind of thing, I think that is the type of person I really want to market to. Obviously, I'm happy to have any fly fishing enthusiast who wants to listen. But if I could talk about that every episode or weave that in some way, I would. So if people have an interest in that, that's kind of who I'm focusing on and who I think will gain the most value. Because I like to cover things about backcountry gear. The guy who's doing the Heeler Traverse, he is starting a backcountry fly fishing specific company to try to solve some of the problems like carrying a bulky net into the backcountry. Things that you can do, but there's not a huge market for the people who are trying to hike 10 miles a day and fish.
Dave
Right.
Katie
So I'm really interested to hear like what he comes up with. He has a net prototype out that I'm really interested in. And I think he wants to tackle the waiter issue, but I'm not sure what solutions might exist out there for carrying waiters way back in the backcountry. But we'll see. I'm excited.
Dave
Yeah, there's got to be some. I think Patagonia, they may have had a really ultralight waiter out there maybe. But yeah, I love the ultralight stuff. That's the thing, the backpacking. We've had some episodes here. We've dug into that. We had Grant from Bear Vault on who talked about his, I think it was 11-pound week-long backpack. For a week-long trip, he got it down like 11 or 12 pounds.
Katie
Oh, man. And that's what I want to get to, but I'm definitely not there. I'm not an ultralight person.
Dave
Now, what's your pack? Are you closer to 40? Or what's your pack look like?
Katie
For what? Like a weekend backpacking trip?
Dave
No, if you're doing, say, a multi, like, say, three, four, five days.
Katie
I mean, I'm curious how he eats food for that long. That's the biggest thing he said.
Dave
We actually dug into that. I'll put a link out to that one. But he talked about the caloric intake of different foods. Like when you get the right type of food that has a crazy amount of calorie but is very compressed. I'm not doing a good job explaining it. But he talked about just basically it's all about the food. Because there are foods you can get and you can get the wrong foods right that aren't going to do it.
Katie
Yeah. So for a week, I'm definitely closer to the 30 to 40 pounds. I'm not really attempting to be ultralight. And I can carry that without a problem. my food, I feel like even when I'm taking, you know, freeze dried stuff, I want to at least enjoy my food a little bit. So I bring a decent amount of like real food. I don't know what he's bringing to me. Maybe he does really enjoy it. But like, I don't bring a lot of like a meal replacement bar that, you know, feeds me for half the day on a single bar. Like I want to snack on some, you know, some good stuff. Yeah. Chocolate Snickers bar. Like I bring things that I, When I sit down, I pull it out and I'm like, oh man, I can't eat this.
Dave
You're like, this is, yeah, this is going to taste like crap. Yeah.
Katie
Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe he, maybe he enjoys his food too. I'm not going to say anything about that, but.
Dave
Yep. Yeah, totally.
Katie
Yeah. And my gear, like my hunting, I use my hunting backpack for all my backpacking and it is not light because it's designed to carry, you know, 50 to a hundred pounds at a time for meat. And so it carries weight really nicely. So I can put a lot of weight in it and feel, and it doesn't like hurt or wear on me. So I end up carrying that for most of my backpacking trip. But my backpack is like not terribly lighter than what his overall setup is. Like I think my backpack weighs like six or seven pounds, which is a lot for a backpack. And I'm aware of that. But because I can then put a bunch of stuff in it and it feels comfortable on me still because the rest of my stuff is an ultra light. So if the rest of my stuff only weighed 11 pounds, yeah, I wouldn't be carrying a backpack that weighs seven. But because the rest of my stuff weighs a normal amount, not ultra light amount, having that heavier backpack with a sturdier frame really sits nicely and carries the weight well for a long period of time.
Dave
Yeah, yeah. And the hunting, that's the cool thing about the hunting is that they have, there's some really awesome companies with like super great stuff, right? Do you have, or do you have like the newest of all the hunting type of packs and all that stuff? Or do you just kind of have whatever you kind of have? More like me, which is like a bunch of older stuff.
Katie
I mean, I've had it for a couple of years, but it is not. an old old backpack by any means I think I got it maybe three or four years ago and I've been using it basically for all my backpacking since then
Dave
Do you know the brand?
Katie
yeah it's a kifaru which is hunting specific but yeah they were located like 15 minutes from me so which is kind of why I went with them because I could go in and try it on and being a smaller framed person I really wanted to try on the backpack before I bought it because they're not cheap. So I can't speak to any of the other brands just because this one was located so close to me that I went in to try one on, but I've been pleased with it so far. Perfect. All right,
Dave
well, let's take it out of here. We got the two minute drill I've been doing here to force me to wrap it up, even though I don't want to, I'd like to keep talking, but let's press start here. I got a few quick questions here. So do you know, you might not know the answer to all these, but is there an episode like your top episode maybe had the most downloads? Is there one that sticks out to you?
Katie
yeah actually it's it was fly fishing for panfish with Bart Lombardo. Panfish on the fly. I think he shared the episode with his followers so I think that's why it blew up. but I think that's one of my most downloaded
Dave
yeah bart yeah that's right yeah Bart was awesome we had him on as well and he's out on the east coast
Katie
right I actually don't remember where he's located it's been a while since I talked to him but I like that that one was highly downloaded because I feel like everyone has access to panfish you know it feels very universal anyone one can go catch a panfish probably within 30 minutes of their house so I thought that was a good episode for people to truly enjoy
Dave
nice so fishing hunting sounds like you're kind of equal there if you had to pick one which one are you going with if you could only do one fishing it is still fishing
Katie
yeah yeah I've been I mean I've I've been a fisherman my whole life since like I was very little and I really love hunting and I almost feel like hunting is still in its it's not its infancy I've been hunting since high school but you know moving to Colorado here is very different so I feel like I kind of had to relearn it for like elk and stuff versus whitetail back east so I think hunting still feels new and shiny which is why it's I've really been dedicating a lot of time to it because fishing you know I've been fishing for so long that it's not boring that's not the word for it but it's I've had to find new ways to be creative and like still make it feel new and exciting to me whereas hunting is still just new and exciting to me because we're still learning a lot every time we go hunting and I still learn things when I go but it's kind of plateaued a little bit where most of the time I'm going and kind of going through the motions. I know what I'm doing, whereas hunting, I come out of every day being like, wow, I learned like 10 new things today. So it feels like it's taking up maybe more time in my life right now, but it's not because I prefer it overfishing. It's just kind of the season I'm in at the moment.
Dave
Nice. Good. Well, and let's just wrap this up with the rod. So it sounds like you do a lot of backcountry. What is your rod kind of length weight if you kind of had to pick one?What is your go-to?
Katie
I usually carry a nine foot four weight for what I'm doing out here. If I know that I'm going to be specifically targeting some larger fish, which we do have a decent number of pretty big fish in some of our backcountry lakes, I will take a five or six weight. I don't take my five weight very often because it's a two piece. It's the first rod I ever got. And two pieces are not like super conducive to backpacking. So I've never gotten another five weight rod. I just have gotten other weights and I use them and like them. So I usually end up going with the four weight unless I know for a fact that I'm going to a place that is known for large fish, at which point I'll take my six weight.
Dave
Take your six. Yeah, I like the six too. I think I'm more of a, I used to be more like the odd number, but I think I'm more like the evens. Six, eight, ten. I think that's more my style for some reason, although it doesn't probably matter.
Katie
Yeah, I don't know if I know anyone with a seven weight.
Dave
Yeah, a seven weight. Yeah, the seven weight is, there's definitely some uses, but I don't know. I'm more eight weight.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like everyone jumps from the six to the eight and it covers everything in between. But except the five, the five and the three, I still feel like hold a place.
Dave
Well, and then also the nine, if you're going saltwater, the nine is a good, you know, weight to have for the all around rod, right? That can cover you. Yeah. So the nine will be one that, and then the seven. So I don't know that I guess that's the question. Where does the seven weight fit maybe first in the middle there? Good. All right, Katie. Well, I'll let you get out of here. We'll send everybody out to fishuntamed.com. And, I just want to thank you for shedding some light on what you have going and doing the great podcast. I think you're doing an awesome job and excited to keep in touch with you and see, you know, follow the journey along the way.
Katie
All right. Thanks, Dave. I appreciate you having me on. All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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