Ep 106: Belize Fishing Recap, with Mike Kusold
I have a special guest for today’s episode. My brand new husband, Mike, is on the show to have a beer with me and recap our recent honeymoon trip to Belize. This was our first saltwater experience, and we had a blast chasing bonefish, tarpon, permit, barracuda, and plenty of other fish from a skiff and wading the flats on the Turneffe Atoll.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. this is episode 106 with Mike Kusold recapping our recent trip to Belize. solo cracking a beer since you've already cracked yours
Mike
yeah as soon as I got it out of the fridge I just cracked it. I couldn't help myself.
Katie
Okay, so why don't you introduce yourself? This is your premiere episode on Fish Untamed.
Mike
Hi, I am Mike. I am Katie's new husband.
Katie
We've recently gotten back from our first saltwater trip to Belize, chasing bonefish, tarpon, permit, and various other species. So we're just going to recap today how the trip went and what we learned and what we liked and didn't like and all the above. Does that sound good to you?
Mike
Yeah, let's do it.
Katie
All right. Well, why don't you start like every other guest does and tell people how you got your start in the outdoors and fishing?
Mike
Yeah. Well, I got my start in the outdoors and fishing because I started dating you. And my first time fly fishing, you took me to Boulder Creek and you told me, hey, bring some water shoes. And I brought those. I went out to Target and bought shoes with like the mesh tops and the rubber bottoms because I had no idea what water shoes were. Turns out you just meant sandals.
Katie
I truly don't recall telling you to bring water shoes because I also think of water shoes as what you're describing, but I definitely didn't intend you to.
Mike
You deliberately used those words, and I was like, oh, I guess fly fishermen use water shoes. But yeah, so since then, I've been fishing basically everywhere with you, which has been nice because having your own private guide, I feel like it got me up to speed pretty quick.
Katie
I want to know, before we start into this trip, what did you expect from Belize, having not ever touched saltwater before in a fishing sense?
Mike
I was just excited for that atmosphere of it. You're out on a boat. I mean, really, you're out on a boat. It's impossible to have a bad time when you're on a boat. So that was really what I was looking forward to, the nice weather, chasing after some species that we've never chased before. But that's about it.
Katie
Well, what's funny is that I think you ended up liking the flats more than the boat, I think. Am I right about that? Like, waiting the flats more than being in the boat. You seem to really like waiting the flats.
Mike
Yeah, it reminds me more of a riverbank where you just kind of, like, look and say, I want to go over there. And then you can go over there versus from the boat, the guide is telling you where you're going. So I enjoyed kind of just, like, looking out the water and being like, oh, that looks kind of nice over there. Like, let's check that out. Um, and then also I felt like I was, it was much easier to spot fish from the water. I felt like.
Katie
Really?
Mike
Yeah. Well, cause from the top of the boat, I don't know from the water. If you get down to water level, you can very clearly see if there's any tails sticking out. So I was able to get down low and then just look across for anything that wasn't like smooth. Uh, whereas from the top, I, I don't know how the guide was doing it, but I was worthless.
Katie
Okay. So I guess you're talking about tailing fish specifically, which I would agree that wading in the flats, it's easier to spot tailing fish. But I think looking for fish in the water without their tails up, I couldn't see anything when we were wading because I was too low. Like the boat gives you a bit of a platform to look down into the water to see the fish. Although I still couldn't see most of at least the bone fish. I felt like they disappeared. But I feel like I could see permit from the boat that weren't tailing.
Mike
I think the other part that really helped me out is from the boat, you're often on top of or we were often on top of like weeds and on the sand or in the flats you were more on top of sand which made it a lot easier to get the contrast of the fish because I was losing them pretty quickly in the weeds
Katie
yeah okay well let's start at the beginning I guess because we just kind of jumped in so we were in Belize for I think nine or ten days and the first two or three days we did mainland stuff. So jungle tour, Mayan ruins, things like that. And then we went out for a six day fishing and diving combo, which I think was originally supposed to be kind of half and half, but ended up being pretty fishing heavy. Although the diving was pretty great too. So day one, we had to pick a single activity and we picked fishing because we wanted to kind of get our feet wet. And we'd been diving recently before this. So I think fishing was kind of the, Let's jump in and see what this is like. So we went out with our guide. And the first day, I think, was kind of a combination of us trying some a little bit easier fishing, but also him getting a feel for what we could do. Did you get the impression that he was kind of sussing us out for the first hour or two to figure out what he was working with?
Mike
Yeah. Well, he took us on a boat to, like, target some bonefish so that he could just call out directions and distances and things like that. He quickly learned that you were the better of the two in the group. So, yeah, you got the target. And I think I just stood up there and casted around for a while because that was my first time casting anything heavier than a 5-weight. But, yeah, I got the quick of that pretty quick.
Katie
I feel like I could cast the distance, but I was struggling not with the telling of time. But when he calls out a time on the clock, so noon is front of the boat and then, you know, one and 11 are next to that and so on and so forth. I would get like a two o'clock, 40 feet. And for some reason, I would just draw a blank on what 40 feet looks like. And I feel like I struggled with that kind of the whole trip, figuring out what a distance is. And I don't know if it's because I'm used to yards. Like when we're archery hunting, I've gotten used to it like 10, 20, 30, 40 yards looks like. And even though I could easily translate that to feet, somehow hearing 40 feet, I just don't know what that looks like. And I think I struggled with that kind of the whole trip. So I think he was getting a little frustrated with me, even though I could cast the distance. I would often overcast because in my mind, I was going to get there and not be able to cast far enough. So my goal was constantly trying to cast as far as I could, thinking I wouldn't be able to reach the distances I needed to. And sometimes I think I kind of overshot it because if something was 20 or 30 feet away, I had a hard time like reining it back in.
Mike
Well, the problem was, is that he would always be able to spot them and he would just shout out the direction and the distance. And so you were just kind of guessing as to what he saw. Whereas like if you're at an alpine lake and you see something rise, you go, I need to hit that spot. And whether it's 20 feet or 30 feet or whatever, it like, it doesn't matter at all because you know where you need to hit. And on the salt, it was just that general direction and like, give it your best shot.
Katie
And it was always a little bit demoralizing when he'd say there's 300 of them right there. And he'd be like, I don't see anything. How am I not seeing 300 fish all in a school? And sometimes I could kind of pick up on what he was pointing at that day in particular. I remember I could start to kind of see them because they were moving over kind of a lighter bottom. I remember the last day he was pointing out schools of fish that I couldn't even told you there were fish in the area. But yeah, that first day, I remember I hooked one bonefish pretty early on. And I think I lost. I think it just popped off. But it fought really hard and it was really fun. So I was pretty jazzed on that. And then I think not too long after that, I did hook one and get it the whole way in. And it was a super fun fight. I think we're using eight weights for bonefish. So then you got to go up on the bow and it was super hot. I remember we were covered like head to toe in sun shirts and buffs and clothing. So I was sitting there like sweating in my head to toe outfit. And then he kind of worked with you to improve your casting and kind of get used to, I think, casting. Did you practice casting backhand that day?
Mike
No, he thought I was incapable of casting backhand until I showed him.
Katie
Did you know you were capable of casting backhand?
Mike
Yeah, well, because when you're on a river and you're facing the river, sometimes you need to cast upstream. Like, I don't know.
Katie
So you felt like you could, but that he was not trusting you.
Mike
And I wasn't going to tell him that I could and then like completely.
Katie
Biff it.
Mike
Yeah, biff it. And then him be like, oh, yeah, you can't do that.
Katie
Well, that's also the problem I had. Like being the more experienced person, I felt like sometimes I was called in as the like, oh, this is a tricky situation. Let's get you up here. And then, you know, I would mess up. And now it's like, well, I was given this opportunity as though, you know, this is the person who can handle it. And then half the time I would like mess up the cast too because, you know, we're casting it either into the wind or having to cast it like an odd angle. Or, you know, when you're told to suddenly cast to four o'clock and you're right handed, it's like you kind of have to prepare for that. So that was also kind of an interesting situation. But then you got up there and you got, did you get a bonefish from the boat that day? Or did you, I know you got one on the flats later that day, but did you get one from the boat in the morning?
Mike
No.
Katie
Did you hook one?
Mike
I don't know.
Katie
I can't remember.
Mike
No. Oh, because I kept trout setting it. Which like, yeah, that's tricky because we never fish streamers. And so it's either a dry or a nymph. And yeah, you don't trout set saltwater. That took me probably a few days to get over despite our guide's enthusiasm.
Katie
And his constant frustration with us. Yeah. So yeah, I remember after we left that morning, he seemed to know when things would pick up and when things would die down, which makes total sense if you're out there every day as a guide. But I didn't always understand exactly what it was that was telling him. I'm assuming tides were changing and he knew when the bonefish would be feeding in any given location. But then he took us over to fish for, there seemed to be a divide between big tarpon and baby tarpon. So this was big tarpon. And he put us out in the channel in between some islands. And we basically blind casted for Big Tarpon, which was kind of fun for me casting. I think we were using an 11 weight. I kept calling it a 12 weight, but I think it was actually an 11 weight for Big Tarpon. We could see them rolling in the distance, which was new to me. I mean, I've never seen a Tarpon roll. But yes, we could see them rolling. We're just casting this 11 weight out. And I was pretty excited when we first showed up because he kind of freaked out. When we first dropped anchor, he said that he could see a bunch of big tarpon like swimming underneath the boat so in my mind we're gonna like have an opportunity at one and I think we blind casted for probably close to an hour with no luck you kind of see them rolling far away but they never came to where we were and then I think after that we headed out to the flats and because I think you got did you get a bonefish that first day in the flats or am I thinking the second day
Mike
no I did
Katie
you did yeah okay and you seemed to really take to the flat so I think ed worked with you to go after bonefish and I was kind of sent off to I don't know wander by myself and see what I could find which was not much but talk about kind of experiencing tailing bonefish for the first time
Mike
I mean it was fun because I got to see what we were actually looking for I don't know they always like I don't watch a lot of fly fishing films at all and so it was all kind of new to me and when you actually get to see how they're tailing and how they're kind of eating on the bottom it just gives you a much better picture of like what you're actually fishing for versus like when we were casting kind of blind from the boat but yeah I was able to hook one brought it in not much more to say
Katie
I was a little frustrated this first day on the flats because I don't by the end I was having fun out there because I feel like I knew what I was supposed to be doing but the first day I kind of felt like I was like left out to dry a little bit which I understand like he had to work with one of us and he was because I had already caught a bonefish, which made total sense. But I had no idea what I was looking for in the flats. Like I knew what a tailing permit looked like because their tails are pretty distinct. All the bonefish were over where you were in that little cove where you were fishing. And I was just kind of wandering around looking for tails of any kind. I guess I was seeing triggerfish tails, but didn't get any of them to eat. And I didn't see anything that wasn't tailing. Like I was, it was impossible for me to see. And even if I did see something, I didn't really know what to do because it's not like every every species you strip in a different way like using a different fly so I had like a single fly on I didn't know what it was good for necessarily and I didn't know how to strip it for any given species I saw so I got a little bit frustrated that first day and I think that day I thought I didn't like the flats because it was I just kind of felt like who knows what to do out here but I was glad you caught a bonefish because at least to show that you know something was going on out there and the second day is the day that I hooked the permit and I'm trying to think what did we do on the second day before that oh we we dove the second day because we had to do our checkout dive for the blue hole so we were excited to do the blue hole we were down in Belize it's kind of like a must-do dive I guess we can talk about that a little bit the diving in addition to the fishing because it was pretty diving was pretty good down there but the first day that we dove which was our second day there we had to do a checkout dive since the blue hole is so deep. So I think we had to go down to 100. I think we had to hit 100 feet, basically.
Mike
It was something like 100, yeah.
Katie
I don't remember how deep we actually went. I want to say like 110 or so.
Mike
Yeah, I mean, and it was enough that the watch was going off saying that the decompression time is coming to an end. But after that, it was kind of a gradual kind of descent in there. So we kind of just followed that slope back up. And our guide shot some lionfish with a spear, which was fun to see. And then some nurse sharks showed up to eat the lionfish. And then those nurse sharks stayed with us the entire time. So there were two of them. And they were just following us around like little dogs. We could reach out, give them a little scratch.
Katie
Yeah, those dives, because they were just checkout dives to get us ready for Blue Hole. I wouldn't say they were particularly extraordinary in terms of the life. But apart from the dives we did later that were on the actual reef, I think the second dive we did that day was probably my second favorite dive, maybe tied with Blue Hole, just because I had a lot of fun with the nurse sharks. I feel like I could have just hung out with the nurse sharks and watched them eat lionfish all day. And getting to pet them was fun. And then we fished and we got picked up, which is luxurious to get out of the water, climb up on the dive boat. Your fishing boat's waiting for you right there. So we just stepped off the dive boat, stepped onto the fishing boat, went from, like swimsuits to covered headed toe again for the sun. And then I think we went out for big tarpon again immediately because we were on that side of the island.
Mike
Yeah. Well, most afternoons we were going out for the big tarpon because it seems like all the other fishing kind of died down and the tarpon were moving through the channel at that point.
Katie
I don't know if by this point I had already decided. I think this is the first day I started to get a little frustrated with the big tarpon. By the end, I was like so over big tarpon that I just could not care to go out again. But I think this day I got frustrated a little bit because we spent a lot of time in the boat just driving from place to place, which, I mean, it is what it is because we were diving on basically the wrong side of the island for what we wanted to fish for. So that was just kind of how it ended up. But I think we tried for a big tarpon for a while. No luck. And then that's when we went over to the flats back by where we were staying. And that's when we saw some tailing permit and you were sent off to go fish for like little snappers and stuff. And for a while, I was jealous of you because this was another example of I was given the opportunity to fish for the permit because it required more precision casting. But I was really jealous that you were catching like fish after fish because we had started our entire trip by saying we literally don't care what we catch. Like we are new to this. We just want to catch anything. So I look over my shoulder while we're like tiptoeing up to this permit and I see you catching fish after fish. And granted, they're like six inches long, but that's like six inches longer than anything I had been catching that day. So I was jealous. were you having fun catching those?
Mike
yeah well like it's what I needed because it gave me practice getting on a lot of fish setting the hook right and yeah just I don't know having time alone from the guide where I kind of got to play around with things and get it figured out without any of the high stress
Katie
yeah there were times that I felt the pressure of someone watching over my shoulder I felt like that was making me do worse and you know sometimes what I needed was just to be left alone for a little bit. But yeah, you caught lots of little snappers. And I was, up until the permit actually happened, I was jealous of you because I was like, I want to be back there. Why am I stuck chasing this fish? Because I had kind of come in with the idea that like, I will not hook or catch a permit. Like that's not going to happen. That's too, like that's, that's a future trip fish. I was like happy with bonefish, but you know, the guide was obviously really excited every time we saw a permit because most of his clients are probably really pushing to chase permit. So at the time, I remember being frustrated and thinking I wish I were out there doing what Mike was doing. And then somehow I hooked one. And it was the guide said it was a decent sized permit. So as soon as I had it on the line, I was suddenly back in the camp of I'm so glad I'm chasing permit because I can't believe this is happening. And I think I had it on for I don't know, maybe five minutes. And it was quite a workout. I had to keep my arms like straight up in the air to keep the line off the coral, while also like sprinting after the fish to try to keep it from getting out into the surf because he said that they dart to the surf and that's what it did so I guess that's pretty common but I guess if it got out in the waves then there was a risk of it getting eaten by a shark so the guide is like running ahead of me trying to steer it back into the shallows I'm running behind him with my arms in my air my arms in the air getting pretty worn out and eventually he he got his hand on the leader and I think reached for the fish and it I don't know made a run for it and he let go the leader and then it just threw the hook at some which was a bummer, but it was also farther than I ever expected to get on a permit. So that was pretty exciting. And then I think, I think you switched over then and went for some bonefish with him that evening. Cause I think we could see some tailing over by where the skiff was parked. Do you remember chasing those ones? Oh, well you caught a bonefish over there and then I hooked one and it broke the line or got caught on coral or something. But I think that was the end of the day. So I don't, I think that was the only fish that was actually landed that day was your bonefish than all your snappers. But the next day was Blue Hole, I think, because the weather was rolling in and we barely made it onto the dive boat. It was like kind of up in the air about whether we were going to go. But we did and the waves were pretty choppy until we got out there. What were your thoughts on diving the Blue Hole?
Mike
I thought it was neat. I thought it was a fun thing to do. But the dives after the Blue Hole, I think were like, I enjoyed a lot more. So like with the blue hole, you get in and you immediately start to drop down to 130. And then there's stalactites that are hanging down, what, about eight feet around and then 60 feet tall. Is that what they were? I think that's what the guide said. Huge. Yeah. And so like the whole blue hole was some underground cavern that used to be dry and then it collapsed. And so like that's why there's these stalactites. But there isn't a whole lot to look at down there. So like the pictures of the blue hole are beautiful because from the sky, it's, you know, ocean and then a very dark circle. The dive was kind of neat, but there's not a whole lot of life down there. We saw some sharks.
Katie
I feel like I had a creepy factor that I was into. You can't see very far. You look down and as far as you can see below you, it just kind of becomes like a dark blue to black. And you can see sharks basically like circling beneath. So I really enjoyed almost like the novelty haunted house aspect of it with the big stalactites. But yeah, it wasn't like if you go there for seeing beautiful coral in life, like that's not really what is happening here. And I think why it sometimes gets not a bad rap, but people say they're disappointed in it a lot because I think they go in thinking it's going to be this like jungle of life. And then it's just not.
Mike
I think for a lot of the dive, I was just looking down at the shark circling underneath. us and just like knowing that if something went wrong that I would just like continuously sink down into the abyss yeah so yeah that was kind of fun but yeah it was it's kind of just short you're just kind of down there for such a short amount of time and then you come back up and it kind of just feels like a check mark
Katie
yeah you know because it's so deep you can only be down there I think we could be down there for maybe a max of like 10 minutes maybe even less it may have five minutes at max depth and then you kind of got to ascend a little bit. I'm definitely glad we did it. I really enjoyed the experience. I don't think I would immediately run back to repeat it over and over again. I think it's kind of a one and done, maybe a two times and done. If we ended up back on that reef, I could see us doing it again, especially because everyone else in the boat, like you probably get roped into doing it if you're on a boat with other people who want to do it because they're coming there for that.
Mike
Yeah. Well, and I would definitely take a boat to that area because once you're there, the dives after are fabulous.
Katie
Yeah, so the blue hole's in the middle of Lighthouse Reef, which is, on the other end of the spectrum, one of the most life-filled dives I've ever done. We saw reef sharks, turtles, eels, all kinds of fish. What else did we see on that? Rays.
Mike
The tarpon.
Katie
Oh, yeah, that was later in the day. Yeah, yeah, tarpon, permit. We saw all the fish that we wanted to catch.
Mike
Yeah, and it was fun watching them on the reef, just being like, oh, we're normally targeting you in like knee deep water.
Katie
Yeah. And after the first reef dive, we ended up on Half Moon Key, which is pretty cool. They've got a little museum and picnic table set up with umbrellas over top. And then they have the bird sanctuary. So we have to see red-footed boobies and frigate birds nesting. Water the color of, I feel like a National Geographic cover, like the bright turquoise. That was just kind of like a beautiful paradise. Nice. And then, yeah, we did one more dive. I think that's when we saw the tarpon. And then the ride back was much more pleasant than the ride out going with the waves because it was still pretty choppy. But riding the waves back into shore, back into our island was much better than riding out.
Mike
Yeah. And there weren't a lot of people diving. So we were on one of their smaller boats, which made the experience a lot bumpier.
Katie
Yeah. So that was day three. And we didn't get to fish at all that day because the blue hole takes up the entire day just driving to it. And I'm looking back at the fishing log because they're all kind of blending together now. But I think that was baby tarpon. Yeah, so we went to the other side of the island because at this point, the wind had picked up pretty bad. Like when we showed up, I thought it was windy. And I remember when I said, oh, it's windy, the guide laughed and said, what wind? Which was ominous for me. But by the fourth day, which I guess was our third day of fishing, the wind had really picked up. So he took us to the other side of the island to fish for baby tarpon, which were not just, you didn't fish for them blind casting into the depths like we did for big tarpon. And baby tarpon, I actually found really, really fun. So he just pulled through the flats on the other side or kind of in the mangroves. So we're looking under the mangroves. And I was really stressed that I was going to lose a fly because he's like, oh, you have to cast underneath this like tangle of branches. And I was thinking that's definitely not going to work. But then he called out a little school of baby tarpon and I managed to cast, I guess, right where I needed to and got one to take. And it was on for, I don't know, maybe 30 seconds. I got to jump two or three times and I got to watch the eat, which was really exciting. It happened probably 15 feet from me. I watched all three or four tarpon kind of follow it up in one, eventually darted forward and grabbed it. So that was really cool. I didn't follow the instructions as I was supposed to of just keep pulling until you really lodged that hook in its mouth. I think I got complacent. I strip set once and then it jumped two or three times. So I thought I had it, but I obviously didn't and got yelled at for, for not playing tug of war with it. Um, just continually strip setting over and over again, which I knew he had told us several times before it happened, but once you're in the moment and I feel like my brain just went blank when that happened so I didn't follow the instructions and we didn't get any more shots at baby tarpon that day did I what were like what were you experiencing during did you get to see the eat or anything?
Mike
yeah well no not the eat but I got to see the jumps and all that because I was just sitting down in the skiff
Katie
oh and then we went after snook which I was excited for snook because I had gotten the impression that they were just a little bit easier to catch than something like a tarpon but we didn't end up seeing I don't think a single snook on the trip we kind of pulled around for him for a while and at some point looking for fish that weren't there was kind of getting old compared to going out for things like bonefish and all the other stuff on the flats that like even if you're not catching it you're seeing it and then we went for big tarpon again and by this point I was kind of like ready to be done with big tarpon because it was like the blind casting I think was just it didn't it didn't stack up to sight fishing for anything really like I would sight fish for anything, even if it wasn't taking over line casting for tarpon. But I think the guide really liked the idea of one of us hooking a big one, because obviously as soon as one of us hooked a big one, we would be converted instantly to wanting to fish for big tarpon, because that's what happens when you have like a 50 plus pound fish on the line. But we didn't hook anything that day. I think we probably took turns blind casting for tarpon.
Mike
Yeah, for me, the frustrating part was that when you could see where they were, And then because the guide was saying that when you turn on the motor, they all scatter. And so if you can't reach where they are on the cast, you just kind of need to let it go and then let the current take it. But when you do that, it moves away from the bank. And so you're just kind of out there letting the current take your streamer away going like, what am I doing here? Because your fly isn't going anywhere near the fish. So I think it was just a limitation of us just not being able to cast to where they were. But yeah, it's kind of frustrating that they don't have like a small motor that the fish can't detect or something to get you closer.
Katie
Well, that was the day that we came back. And I think we were both kind of frustrated by the end of this day because I don't think we caught a single fish. I mean, I hooked the baby tarpon, which was super fun. But then the rest of the day that happened like first, you know, first 15 minutes of fishing for them. And then the rest of the day was spent motoring around looking for snook that we couldn't find casting to big tarpon that we weren't seeing. And we got back. I think I was just kind of dejected. Cause I think I'd come in expecting to fish for bonefish more. And because we'd already both caught bonefish, I think the guide kind of switched gears and like wanted us to catch other things. But we're so new that we could have probably caught bonefish every day and had a good time. So we went out, that was the day that we went out on our own flat, the flat, they called it the home flat right off of where we were staying. And I think that really helped boost our mood a little bit because you caught a bonefish. I caught probably like a dozen little mutton snappers and yellow snappers and all kinds of little things. And we were seeing little rays swimming around and sharks. It was just fun to be like out of the eye of our guide. He was super nice, but there's obviously just stress when the expert is looking over your shoulder telling you you're doing it wrong because you're new. So being able to go out and just mess up on our own time was, I think, really helpful to boost our mood and we were able to catch fish on our own.
Mike
I think it's also just more exciting to know that you're doing this. So this is the first time having a guided experience. And there's a lot of times that, yeah, you pull in the fish, but you're wondering, did catch this whereas like when we were on the flats like I spotted a permit and then you got to cast to it and like yeah we didn't get it but if we would have that would have been something that like we did on our own versus you know have having a fish whisperer
Katie
yeah yeah it was I felt like it was a confidence booster and I guess full disclosure you didn't see the bonefish I think He referred to it as Hawaiian style. So maybe in Hawaii, they don't tail as much. I'm not sure. Maybe it's just deeper water. I think I've heard that there's fewer bonefish that are bigger. Maybe they're in deeper water, but you caught it blind, just like stripping in.
Mike
Yeah, that was the largest snapper ever.
Katie
Yeah, well, I looked over and I saw your rod bent down. And up until this point, I at least had only been catching these like five inch snappers. So nothing was really making the eight weight bend. And we were just kind of pulling him in. I turned around and your rod was like doubled over. I was like, huh, I don't know if he's caught on a rock or if he just has the biggest snapper in the world on right now.
Mike
No, I also went full trout mode and forgot that I have a reel. So I was like just hand lining it in, which I didn't realize until I got it in. And I was like, oh, this is a bonefish. And my guide told me not to do what I just did.
Katie
Well, luckily he wasn't there to see it. So you didn't have to get yelled at for that. But yeah, that was a really fun day. I think we talked about wanting to do that like every day after that point. I don't know if we ever really went back out and tried hard on our own flat again. I think we were just kind of exhausted by the end. But I think it was really helpful to have that after a day of kind of being dejected, getting kind of frustrated with fishing for big tarpon. And the next day, I ended up feeling a little bad because I was hooked on the fact that I had the baby tarpon on. And that was fun because it was sight fishing. We got to jump. And it was like way better than big tarpon. So I begged to go back and fish for baby tarpon again. So and why I felt bad was that it was probably an hour long boat ride to get around the island to where they were. So we rode the whole way down there and then ended up not seeing a single baby tarpon down there. I think we had said that if we didn't see baby tarpon, we'd like to just cast all the little things that were there because there was like barracudas and snappers and jacks and stuff swimming around. And we kind of planned that if we didn't find baby tarpon, we'd go after those. but we got, I feel like this is going to sound kind of rude, but we got dragged over to Big Tarpon again when we didn't find Baby Tarpon, which, again, frustrated me. But I think the one nice thing on this day was that for Big Tarpon, they were rolling like right by us. Do you remember that day that, for a minute, it actually seemed like we might get something.
Mike
I mean, right by us, but also right out of casting range.
Katie
No, I think some of them were in casting range. Or, well, the ones that were rolling were like slightly out of casting range, but that doesn't mean that all the Tarpon are. Like, you know, if you see fish rising in the lake, and you see a fish rise far away, it doesn't mean that you like, there's no fish near you.
Mike
Yeah, but I'm still going to target the one rising.
Katie
Yeah, well, okay. Well, I just, I felt like we had a better chance because they were actually there. Like we finally showed up to a spot and there were tarpon there. Whereas other days I felt like we often showed up and it's like, oh, there's one rolling like half a mile away down in this other channel. And this time they were rolling like right in front of us.
Mike
I was kind of worried when I was up on the bow casting at them, the bow casting at them. I was kind of worried, like, what happens if this giant fish actually takes it? Like, how ready do you actually need to be? And in my head, all I could do was replay scenes of me just, like, getting dragged overboard by this fish. So, yeah, I'm kind of curious what it would be like. But, yeah, I was also kind of nervous just casting at them because of the size.
Katie
Do you think that if you hooked one, you would have, I don't know, risen to the moment? Or do you legitimately think that you might just fall into the water?
Mike
I don't know. Like there's that cheater bar in the back, but I always felt like I was young and had too good a balance to use it. So I don't know. Like I didn't.
Katie
Like, do you think you would let go of the rod before it dragged you into the water? Or do you think you would get a death grip on the rod and legit get pulled in?
Mike
I mean, I would hope death grip. I hope I'm not the person that lets go of the rod. Like that. Oh my God.
Katie
That's more embarrassing maybe than getting dragged in. Yeah.
Mike
I feel like I would just never live that down at the lodge. I'd always be the guy who let go of the rod.
Katie
Yeah. No, that wouldn't be a good look. I think someone caught a big tarpon that day or maybe it was the day before, but we came back and somebody had landed one that they, no, no, no. That was on the last day that they did that. I think somebody caught a smaller tarpon. That was it. Someone caught like maybe a, I don't know. I hesitate to even throw out a weight, but a teenage one. It wasn't a baby, but it wasn't like the big, big ones. And I think that was the, basically that, that was it for that day. That was kind of uneventful. I think we were too exhausted to go back out on our own flat afterward. And the last day, I think the guide finally came around to the idea that we really needed some help because we had just had a couple of days in a row of like not much going on. And the last thing he said to us on our second to last day was anything that swims tomorrow. And I was like, hallelujah, this is what I've been wanting the whole time. I've just wanted to catch anything that swims. I don't need it to weigh a certain amount. I don't need a certain length. I just want to catch a fish. And so the last day he took us bone fishing from the skiff again, which we hadn't really done since the first day. We went out on the skiff for bone fish the first day, and then we've been on the flats every time since then. So he took us back out on the boat again to a spot that he said we were going to be like blasted by wind. I didn't think that it was really that windy or maybe the wind was just working in our favor.
Mike
No, I mean, it was strong, but he positioned the boat well so that when you were casting, the wind was at our back.
Katie
yeah and this was the day that he was saying that there's like you know 150 fish in the school how do you not see it right there and I'd be like oh that little cloud over there he's like no not that and I was like I just don't know how you're seeing this and he would talk about it like that it was moving this direction moving that direction I didn't see anything I don't know if you were ever able to pick it out
Mike
oh yeah I mean by the end if I mean once I stared at the water for enough hours I was able to pick out where the bonefish were and I started to see kind of where they were moving But he was also kind of particular with where he wanted you to cast because there were all sorts of barracuda kind of circling the bonefish just waiting for one to get out of sorts. And I think he was trying to get us to target areas where the barracudas weren't currently. So even if you could see the entire cloud, he was saying like, hey, don't cast into the cloud of bonefish. Cast like over at this specific edge because that's the best place to hook one.
Katie
I think this was possibly my favorite part of the whole trip was how much of like a teamwork thing it became. Because I hooked a bonefish like fairly early on and it got demolished by a barracuda. I think we hadn't even spotted it yet, but, you know, the line just got severed. that poor bonefish got obliterated. And as soon as that happened, the guide seemed a little bit worried. I think maybe the idea that the barracuda had gotten a taste of bonefish and now understands that these bonefish are vulnerable, it just started lurking, basically circling the school, but wouldn't attack them unless one was in distress. And that really only happened when one got hooked. And this barracuda was like four feet long. And the longer we stayed there, the more of them showed up. By the end, there were like two or three big ones, and then a dozen that small and I think the small ones weren't really at risk of taking the bonefish out but there were just barracudas everywhere but I really loved the teamwork we had to have because one person would cast out the guide is obviously next to them kind of telling them where to cast where the barracudas are even though we could usually see the barracudas and the the person on the rod would have to adjust the drag, sometimes the guide was adjusting the drag for us, but the goal was that when you hook one, you don't want the barracuda to see which one is hooked. So you want, if the barracuda is coming near it, you have to loosen the drag so the fish can run naturally and not be acting as though it's hooked. And so barracuda would come by, you'd loosen the drag, let the bonefish run, barracuda would move away, tighten the drag, reel it in, bring it to this particular side of the boat because barracuda is on the other side. The guide is like hitting the water with an oar to try to keep, or with his pole, I guess, to keep the barracuda away. And then the third person is on, we didn't have a net, but basically net duty, like trying to get the fish out of the water as fast as possible. I thought this was like the best thing, because I felt like whether I was fishing or not, I got to be a part of it, which was really fun.
Mike
Yeah, I mean, there was so much going on at once. Like someone was bringing in the fish. The guide had, I don't know how long those poles are, like what, 12, 16 feet?
Katie
Yeah, they're like really, really long.
Mike
Yeah, and he's just like holding it on one end. They're like giant PVC tubes. And he's just like walloping on the water, trying to scare away the Barracuda. Meanwhile, you're trying to get it in the boat before the Barracuda realizes where they ended up. Yeah, that was an exciting time. Like just the cat and mouse game with the Barracuda to, you know, be able to get it to the boat and then let it go and let it get back to the school without the Cuda getting it.
Katie
Well, and it made it fun, too, because the rest of the trip, like only one person can be fishing at a time. which I do want to kind of end by talking about like what we learned and what we, you know, what was unexpected. But, you know, something I guess I didn't realize coming in was that only one person can cast at a time. And it makes sense. Like having two people casting fly rods basically back to back or side to side on a boat is too much. Like you're just going to get caught on each other. But, you know, sometimes, you know, you'd be up for a half hour, 40 minutes. And by the end of it, I'm kind of just bored because if you're not, if you're not actively catching something, then I'm just watching you, you know, blind cast a big tarpon or whatever. And, you know, it just kind of get like old. I'm hot. I'm sweating. I'm hungry, whatever. But this one, it was, it was like, I'm having an equal amount of fun, whether I'm fishing or whether I'm watching, because even if I'm watching, I feel like I've got a job to do. Like it's my job to help keep this barracuda away and try to get the fish in. So I was like legitimately just as excited to be on quote unquote net duty as I was fishing duty, which is, I feel like even in the trout world like yeah you you might be on net duty but it doesn't it doesn't feel as exciting as it did there you didn't feel like you had like or on this trip I feel like we had a bigger job to do as the the watcher
Mike
yeah I mean like when you reel in a trout like nothing's really coming for it nothing's trying to eat it all you're trying to do is make sure it doesn't get into the fast current
Katie
yeah so that was a lot of fun and I think we hung out there for I don't know a couple hours and basically just took turns going after the school bonefish was kind of just hanging out the school was hanging out in the same spot because he said that this is like one of the places that they stay all the time. I don't know if he said it's like their home, but like basically it wasn't being affected by the tides. They weren't coming into the flats to tail and then move on. Like they, the school basically lived in this area. So even as we were catching them, the school wasn't, it was moving around, but it wasn't leaving. So it was nice that we could just kind of hang out there and target it. But the barracuda was really getting on the guide's nerves. Like it was getting on all of our nerves but you could tell that his frustration level the longer we stayed out there was just climbing a higher and higher as more and more of these like large barracudas showed up and then I think I caught two little barracudas just by chance stripping in but eventually the guy got frustrated and basically went on like what would you call like barracuda hunt to try to get rid of the barracuda
Mike
yeah I mean I managed to catch my first ever jack and then he just snagged it off the end of my line before I really got to see it and then threw it back out still on the hook.
Katie
No, not still on that hook. He attached it to like, rest in peace, Jack. I felt bad for it, but it got sacrificed and he put it on like a big tube. I don't know. It wouldn't even be called a tube fly. It was a tube with treble hooks on it. He attached the Jack to that and tossed it out. That barracuda just nailed it. I hesitate to say I caught this fish because this all happened so fast I think he had this plan and to explain what to do for one of us to to get this all rigged up would have been like it would have taken too long so he rigged it up cast it out and hooked the barracuda as it took the jack and then threw the rod into my hand and said bring it in and now I've got like a four and a half foot barracuda on a I don't remember what weight rod I guess that was probably on the 11th 11 yeah and that took I don't know five ten minutes to bring in which is fun like I i don't really feel like I caught it but it was fun to bring in nonetheless
Mike
I mean it was fun to watch because that thing was jumping all over the place just soaring out of the water splashing down going for a giant run you know darting the other way soaring again and I was just in the back filming the whole thing going like oh my god this is crazy
Katie
yeah we eventually got it in and that that barracuda was also sacrificed given to a a different guide to take home to his family because they did tell us before the trip started that we could keep fish that weren't the the three big species so bonefish tarpon and permanent are protected so we knew that we would be releasing all those but they did say that if you catch like a nice snapper or whatever that you're welcome to bring it back and give it to the chef to cook up we didn't catch any snappers that were worth bringing back but they said they wouldn't keep a barracuda and they didn't go into detail but from our trip to Cozumel in March it sounds like barracudas can like I don't know if they have the disease or if there's like a carrier for it but it sounds like you can get a pretty nasty disease if you eat one that's infected so I got the impression that they wouldn't cook a barracuda for you because of that risk
Mike
no they they came out and said that that's the reason why
Katie
they want to keep it but that doesn't stop their guides from eating them so we brought it back and gave it to one of the other guides to take home to his family because apparently he's like a barracuda foodie basically like he his family loves barracudas we brought that back and what the guide assured us that the poor jack that we had sacrificed for the for the good of getting rid of this barracuda had you know let the bonefish sleep well that night although I don't know how well they slept because there was another giant barracuda in there as well
Mike
yeah well a lot of his anger is that the barracuda in that area has no natural predators. And so they just kind of feast on the game fish just growing and growing and nothing is ever there to keep them in check. And especially because everyone that comes there fishes for the game fish and not, you know, the thing that's hunting the game fish.
Katie
Yeah. And I feel like it was pretty clear because there were so many barracudas. Like there were only the two or three big, big ones that were actually attacking the bonefish, but they were like, they were like flies, the little ones, They were everywhere. And they were just constantly like I remember he cast out once just to see if he could he wanted to catch a small barracuda to see if the big barracuda would then eat it. And when he cast out that like small barracuda sized streamer, I feel like the 10 of them came out of the woodwork all following it. So, yeah, they're not big yet. But, you know, I feel like at some point they're going to be four feet long and they're going to be eating the bonefish that are on people's lines. So I understood his frustration. I feel like it's the same frustration, you know, with Colorado trying to get rid of pike and some of these lakes that they're just like gorging themselves on the fish that people want to catch and there's nothing really taking them out. So that's the impression I got. But that was the last day. I think we ended up fishing some flats on the way back. We got out to wait a little bit. I got to see some parrotfish tailing, which I hadn't seen before, but I think I, I don't think I caught anything on those flats. I cast a couple of times to bone fish and blew it. I don't know if you caught any, did you catch snappers or anything out there?
Mike
I think so. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to remember if that was the day that I was just surrounded by the bonefish.
Katie
No, that was a previous day that we were on the flats, I think. I know which day you're talking about. No, I don't think... I don't know if either of us caught anything in the flats on the last day. We were only out there for like maybe 30 minutes. But yeah, that was it. And that was the end of the trip. We left the next day. We obviously skipped all the like paradise aspects of, you know, being back at the lodge. I'd never had a lodge experience before.
Mike
No, I mean... And the one important thing to note was Blue Hole Day was fried chicken day, which was an awesome lunch.
Katie
Oh, yeah. The food was just incredible. Homemade tortillas, appetizers. Every day the appetizers were amazing.
Mike
It was pretty luxurious to get off a boat, come back, drop your stuff off, head up for a drink, and someone would be like, oh, would you like some appetizers?
Katie
Yeah. That's something I had never experienced before. I know people go to trout lodges and stuff, too, but we've never gone on a guided trip of any kind. And I feel like we went from like zero to a hundred, you know, we could easily like book a guided day of trout fishing, you know, just go out wade fishing. But I feel like we went from nothing to one of the most luxurious experiences, which it was a honeymoon. So it made sense. We, we splurged for that, but I want to hear, Oh, what were you going to say?
Mike
I feel like we got a lot more out of it than if we were to do a guided day with trout fishing. Cause like, yeah, I'm sure that there's like stuff we can learn, But we trout fish enough that in general, I kind of know what to do. And so really what you're renting is like, I guess the boat at that point. But for saltwater, we came in with zero knowledge. And so now leaving the trip, I feel like, hey, if we're if we end up going to an area that has, you know, bonefish and flats, like I feel pretty confident that we'll come home successful.
Katie
Yeah, I felt like we booked instruction more than anything else. And obviously he did have access to a boat that was very necessary for fishing. He had like, I mean, I brought an eight weight, but we're using their gear, using, I guess we didn't really use their flies, but we use their fly suggestions. Like we were learning what was good and why and the different techniques. I think one of the biggest learning experiences for me was how to strip the different kinds of flies based on what they were. So like crabs are stripped one way and shrimp are stripped another way. And even beyond that, like what you're fishing for, they like them stripped certain ways and all that stuff. I feel like if we had just gone out to any old flat DIY, I think we could have easily fished for the same six days and not really caught anything but those little snappers, which they would basically take anything.
Mike
Yeah. I mean, like even him just telling us the speed at which you strip, like some of the, some of the flies you strip in so fast that it's, it's just like constant tugging, like real quick jerky tugs and I would have assumed that that was way too fast like I'd never would have done that if you didn't tell me to do that
Katie
well it's quite a range too because like when I'm picturing stripping a streamer for trout like you do you can vary the speed but it's I feel like there's kind of an average like speed and I feel like for these fish sometimes you're stripping way faster and shorter than that and other times you are stripping almost in slow motion like barely pulling the line along to simulate like a crab that's I guess kind of just slowly crawling across the bottom like for permit it was kind of a slower strip and I we would have no idea and even if you read online like a slow strip what does that even mean like he had to tell us like how many inches to strip and how long it should take and he would have you strip like with his voice so yeah that was that was a learning experience but I want to wrap up by hearing like what what surprised you what was like one of the more interesting things you learned on the trip like just kind of like a an overview of your takeaways from first saltwater experience
Mike
I mean I think my takeaway is that I don't really understand why people only target the big three people are sleeping on the snappers catching those tiny snappers in the surf just like moseying about it's just as fun as catching bonefish and you know I didn't hook a tarpon or permit or anything but I just find it interesting, like which species people deem worth fishing for and which ones they just kind of discount. Like when I caught that jack, like it fought nice. Like I don't understand why people don't want to catch jack. Like I just don't understand that part of the fly fishing world. But yeah, the other learning experience was just how much more critical casting is in saltwater. I feel like a lot of times that we're fishing, it's on some like willow choke tail hole. where realistically you're just dropping the fly like straight into whatever small little creek you're in and letting it drift down. Whereas here, you know, you have, because you're on the boat or the flats, you basically have infinite casting room. You're not too worried about your back cast going into a mountainside and catching willows, trees, whatever. And so I think they get to turn casting into way more of an art. Whereas I feel like on a river or at a lot of mountain lakes, casting is just like, just do whatever you need to, to get it out there. Just get it. Yeah. Like it's not going to be pretty. You might be like side arming it to get it underneath a tree, or you might be going short on one of your casts or something. Cause you just don't have the distance. And yeah. In, in the saltwater world, it's yeah. They have wind. Yeah. they're throwing heavy stuff but they just don't have to deal with the same I don't know fly eating type of like trees and vegetation
Katie
it's also like way more sight fishy than freshwater there is definitely sight fishing in freshwater but often I feel like you're looking for water that holds a fish you're like oh there's a pocket behind that rock I bet there's a fish in there and you just put your fly in and hope for the best and apart from big tarpon I don't think we blind casted to anything ever except the little snappers which were just kind of like they were kind of bycatch I mean we had a ton of fun catching them but for any of the big three like permit baby tarpon bonefish I guess even the barracudas you see the fish and you have to hit it right on which is I knew like I was told that before we went so I was aware of it but it really is like a stark contrast compared to trout fishing where you're like reading water like you're not really reading water in this case as much.
Mike
I mean, yeah, when we're trout fishing, most of the time I just try to get it so it drifts, you know, past whatever boulder. And I assume that there's a fish somewhere inside of that water. And yeah, in the flats, I think because there's so much area, like they're not constrained by riverbanks and all that, that they just move around so much more.
Katie
Yeah. And when they spook, they're gone. Like a trout might spook, but a spooked trout might even stay where it is. It but they're still there. These fish, when they spooked, they're just like not in the area anymore. They just leave. So would you go saltwater fishing again based on this experience? And like, what do you think that would entail?
Mike
I would go again. I think that it'd be fun to kind of do more of a DIY type scenario just because I just like that low stress. Like you mentioned that when you're on the boat, only one person's casting. It is hot on those boats. Like you're just sitting there, You're feeling the sweat drip down. Like when you're watching another person cast, you feel the sweat start at your top and just like drip down your entire body. And you feel that one droplet of sweat like go the entire way down. And it's hot. The guide yells at you if you want to get in the cooler for some limeade or something because you're making too much noise. Like I just want to be out on the water, ideally with like a beer at my waist, casting and enjoying the ocean.
Katie
I do feel like we should specify too because we've talked a lot about how the guide was like breathing down our necks or we were getting yelled at. We really enjoyed our guide and having a guide. We learned a lot. It's just the stress of having someone who's really, really, really good at what they do, helping you do something that you're really, really horrible at. It's just like I felt bad for him as much as I felt bad for myself just because I understand what it's like to be frustrated by somebody who has no idea what they're doing.
Mike
I mean, the big difference to me is with Trout, I've cast to the same Trout for like an hour, just thinking like, oh, that cast wasn't exactly where I wanted. Just let it drift down, pull it out, throw it back up there. Yeah, and you get basically infinite chances at a Trout. And with Saltwater, you either get it or you don't, which I understand the skill level attraction of that. But I don't know. There's a lot of bad casts that you can have. and on the river if it's a bad cast there's no consequences because he's cast again whereas on a boat with the guy that you hired if you make a bad cast he's like oh man who are these people in my boat
Katie
yeah you blew it so yeah overall like I'm no no complaints on our guide really it's it's a product I think any guide would have been frustrated with
Mike
no I mean I'd go out with him again I think that I think that the first day it took him a while to realize like where we were at in terms both skill and expectations for this trip and I feel like once he did that or once he kind of adjusted to that I think he was fine but yeah I mean it's just having that person watch over your back while you're doing something like I don't if you're fishing like in some like downtown area and there's you know some people at the shops above standing on a bridge watching like yeah you're not going to cast your best because there's people watching and who wants that like ideally the ideal scenario is you're out there alone it's you and the fish and it's it's like a solo type game
Katie
it's even worse though because the people on the bridge probably don't know what they're doing either so like no big deal but this guy is like an expert so every time you do anything even slightly wrong you're just like oh god I screwed that up but he was forgiving 30 not two o'clock Yeah. I kept getting worried that I was going to mix my clock up like he's going to say two and I was going to cast a 10 or vice versa. But yeah, that was basically it. So we can get wrapped up. Have you finished your beer yet?
Mike
It was gone about halfway through.
Katie
Oh, I'm only halfway done. All right. Well, we'll get wrapped up. And thank you for coming on for your first appearance on the Fish Untamed podcast.
Mike
Thank you. Long time listener first time caller.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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